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The golden dome in Samarra was blown up, riots followed, reprisals ensued, thugs came out to forment further violence. But then a curfew was enforced, Iraqi security forces stepped in, Sunni and Shiite leaders came out for peace, and hopes for a coalition government were restored.

But here at home you would have thought that our own capitol dome had exploded. Indeed, Americans more than the Iraqis needed such advice for calm to quiet our own frenzy. Almost before the golden shards of the mosque hit the pavement, pundits wrote off the war as lost--as we heard the tired metaphors of "final straw" and "camel's back" mindlessly repeated. The long-anticipated civil strife among Shiites and Sunnis, we were assured, was not merely imminent, but already well upon us. Then the great civil war sort of fizzled out; our own frenzy subsided; and now exhausted we await next week's new prescription of doom--apparently the hyped-up story of Arabs at our ports.

We don't have a news media so much as a gang of drive-by shooters who go from one thing to the next spreading panic and chaos.

The news media is not being honest about what's going on in Iraq. They are being irresponsible and churlish in their opposition to American policy.

The truth about what is going on in Iraq can be found in what the troops there tell us. They point to their tremendous successes and to their plan, which is to quell the terrorists, train up the Iraqi security forces, and provide time for the establishment of a democratic government in opposition to the Islamists, all of which is proceeding apace.

It's no coincidence that the closer we get to achieving success the more shrill the denunciations of the war and the cries of defeat at home. Blowing up the golden dome was an act of pure desperation on the part of the terrorists, and we see similar desperation here at home.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008030
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What are you talking about?

Abe
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You just keep telling yourself that ...
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It's no coincidence that the closer we get to achieving success the more shrill the denunciations of the war and the cries of defeat at home. Blowing up the golden dome was an act of pure desperation on the part of the terrorists, and we see similar desperation here at home.

Ah yes, the "last throes" of the insurgency!!!

deejay7
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Now do we know when we've won???

herb
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You go ahead and keep telling your self that.
Remember, offiicial reports say only about 400 people of died but more and more reports keep coming out that 3 to 4 times that amount have died, so who telling the truth now!
.
As for me, I just damn happy my son is out of there and I am can only hope his cousin is also soon out of there. How many of your family have been or are over there. In the last 2 years 4 of mine have served and come home. More then likely, your one of those who say it's okay to to go to war as long as it's someone else's son who is fighting it. Of the 4 who have served 3 said they would not like to go back, not because they are afraid or think it to dangerous but because they really did not feel they accomplished a damn thing. And the 4th, well he wants to go back as a part of the private contractors that are getting$10,000 a month tax free!
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Iraqi PM Ibrahim Jaafari has vowed not to let sectarian violence derail work on a new government, after a week in which over 400 people died violently.
A government count of 379 dead and 458 wounded as of Tuesday afternoon was followed by news of at least 23 deaths in a blast at a Baghdad Shia mosque.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4761154.stm



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"It's no coincidence that the closer we get to achieving success ...."

Define in 10 objectively measureable criteria "success."

Ken
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Yes, MrCynic ..... we all know, "we've turned the corner". It's the fault of the liberal press.

All those bombs ... 2,000+ Americans dead ..... tens of thousands wounded .... scores of Iraqi's killed every day .... OBL still at large .... this all means we're winning!

Iraq was a fool's mission led by a fool and supported by fools.

Take the blinders off and check out reality for a change.

AW
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The news media is not being honest about what's going on in Iraq. They are being irresponsible and churlish in their opposition to American policy.

Zalmay Khalilzad - the U.S. Ambassador to Iraq and the man hand-picked by the President of the United States to be the top non-military representative in that Country - publicly acknowledged that the bombing and its aftermath brought the country to "the brink of civil war."

To borrow a rhetorical tactic from war supporters for a moment: how can you possibly think that it's not harmful to keep insisting that things are going well in Iraq? The Iraqi people know they're suffering from terrorist attack after terrorist attack. Remember the terrorist bombings in Madrid that horrified the world, and killed 192 people? There are no ways of comparing atrocities, but the Iraqi people suffer that level of fatality at the hands of terror attacks every month.

The London bombings, which dominated the front pages here and abroad and resulted in 52 deaths? That's the level of death that the Iraqi people have suffered almost every week for nearly three years.

The cumulative death toll from the violent attacks precipitated by insurgents and terrorists is nearly ten times our own losses in 9/11, in a country one-tenth our size.

So what message does it send to the Iraqi people that we believe that this level of violence and terrorist attacks is one that should be found tolerable? That the killing of literally hundreds - perhaps more than a thousand - innocent people in the space of a week is not the sign of something going awry, but an acceptable level of progress? That we regard the deaths by violence of scores and scores of innocent people as not being indicative of a problem?

In a week or two, we will move into Year Four of the invasion - and neither the U.S. military nor the new Iraqi government can provide domestic security capable of keeping the death toll down. We can accept that they might be doing the best they can under the circumstances, but at least then have the dignity and courtesy to the Iraqi people to recognize that the losses they suffer daily represent a violent, not stable, civil society.

Albaby
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So what message does it send to the Iraqi people that we believe that this level of violence and terrorist attacks is one that should be found tolerable? That the killing of literally hundreds - perhaps more than a thousand - innocent people in the space of a week is not the sign of something going awry, but an acceptable level of progress?
____________________________________________________________________

you create your own false premise here, run for the touchdown and do a congratulatory dance.

The situations you site are not remotely analagous.

Siting we are moving in the wrong direction in the US what does it accomplish

- Those against us, - has to help their morale, which you would expect leads to better recruiting and fundraising

- Those who do like the directionthings are going in there, and find their lives better - are they going to get on board the US bandwagon when the rhetoric has that wagon pulling out ASAP - safe or not?

- What do thos who feel it is dangerous have to gain on way or the other?

--

Now as you say, things are going well and that is what is reported

what are the negative impacts

Those that believe things are not going well are impacted? They are likely to aid the US less- why? more importantly how?
The word is the US is not leaving - improvements are being made - things are bad but improving

Those battling against us are bolstered? How?

________________________________________

If our media is going to lie about things there is no doubt which aids our efforts. If it is going to adversely slant, there is no doubt which aids our efforts(if we are looking to succeed rather than get out).
As far as ratings, what nonsense, a bomb blowing up even with success is a story. You can report both. Lots of reports are coming out siting both but they remain a rarity in the MSM
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you create your own false premise here, run for the touchdown and do a congratulatory dance.

The situations you site are not remotely analagous.


I think I recognized the impossibility of drawing direct comparisons between atrocitities, but why are they not remotely analogous? Innocent people are getting killed by politically-motivated violence. Ordinary citizens are getting blown up by suicide bombers. Every few months, thousands and thousands of Iraqi's die at the hands of terrorists.

Lowstudent, what rate of innocent Iraqi deaths is sufficient to demonstrate that the security situation there is inadequate? Or is there no level of death - no possible number of people getting killed - that would indicate that there is a problem?

For goodness sakes, the U.S. ambassador himself noted that the level of sectarian violence recently experienced in Iraq brought that country "to the brink of civil war."

Albaby
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So what message does it send to the Iraqi people that we believe that this level of violence and terrorist attacks is one that should be found tolerable? That the killing of literally hundreds - perhaps more than a thousand - innocent people in the space of a week is not the sign of something going awry, but an acceptable level of progress? That we regard the deaths by violence of scores and scores of innocent people as not being indicative of a problem?



There may be lots of killing, but you didn't mention the new school that was built.
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is there no level of death - no possible number of people getting killed - that would indicate that there is a problem?



Bush supporters refused to answer this question at the start of the invasion, so why would they answer it now?
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There may be lots of killing, but you didn't mention the new school that was built.
-----

Then blown up and rebuilt again. That counts for two, right?
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Lowstudent, what rate of innocent Iraqi deaths is sufficient to demonstrate that the security situation there is inadequate? Or is there no level of death - no possible number of people getting killed - that would indicate that there is a problem?
_________________________

What is being put out is not that the security situation is not adequate.

To claim that is what is being complained about as negative press coverage is not a valid point IMO.

I was under the impresion what was being discussed was the negatives of only negative press coverage. I agree it would be absurd to say there are no problems. We are waste deep in problems.

That said, was the nation waste dep in problems when we got there? I believe the answer is yes, there was massive deaths going on and no hope of progress. Should we be playing up that there is hope? I believe so. Does that mean there are no problems? Absolutely not.

Why is the situation of the two stories not analagous? -Simple one helps our cause one does not. Where are the negatives of playing pro-progress stories. One can clearly site the positives, Your claims were they were analagous because of some percieved negtive in positive stories. It simply is not there, making them- not analagous.
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I was under the impresion what was being discussed was the negatives of only negative press coverage. I agree it would be absurd to say there are no problems. We are waste deep in problems.

The OP was directed at claims that the media coverage does not accurately reflect the situation in Iraq. The thread title claims that we are "winning" in Iraq, presumably notwithstanding the portrayal of existing conditions in the media.

When the more significant events from Iraq are negative, the news coverage will focus on those negative events. Pretending that those negative events did not happen might have a beneficial effect (if only for propaganda purposes), but really only if you can successfully limit the coverage in Iraq as well as in the U.S. Somehow, I don't think you'd be able to keep the fact that hundreds of people were killed by violence in the course of a few days off the front pages in Bagdad, no matter what the U.S. coverage is.

And of course, there would be downsides to inappropriately positive news stories in the U.S. media as well - if only for the reason most often given by war supporters. We want our policy decisions in Iraq to respond to reality, not domestic pressures. If the reportage is unduly optimistic, then public perception of the war disconnects from the reality of the war, freeing up (or requiring) the Administration to make policy decisions that might not be in our best interests. If Iraq were on the brink of civil war (assuming hypothetically that today it is not), we want the American people to know that fact so that our leaders face the appropriate political pressures to do something about it.

Albaby
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And of course, there would be downsides to inappropriately positive news stories in the U.S. media as well - if only for the reason most often given by war supporters. We want our policy decisions in Iraq to respond to reality, not domestic pressures. If the reportage is unduly optimistic, then public perception of the war disconnects from the reality of the war, freeing up (or requiring) the Administration to make policy decisions that might not be in our best interests. If Iraq were on the brink of civil war (assuming hypothetically that today it is not), we want the American people to know that fact so that our leaders face the appropriate political pressures to do something about it.
_________________________

The same is true if the reports are too negative. Every negative is there as well as the negative that all things being equal, it would aid our enemy as I stated earlier.

I have no argument against balanced coverage, indeed it is what I believe most on both sides wish they KNEW they were getting. I can honestly say I have no idea if the coverage is slanted negatively or not, but I do read enough reports that contradict what we are given in the MSM to have real doubts-but not certainty.

The report that trigerred this discussion by Ralph Peters is indicative of that.

The underlying reportage that Bagdad and much of Iraq was not severely broken before our getting there is also at best misleading.

So to pretend the decisions to be made are better made without good news if it exists as well as bad news does not fit any argument you have yet made. Slanted news either way will lead us to a bad decision. If sucess in Iraq is a net plus for the US, news that would negatively impact us leaving due to its' inaccuracy would be the worst case scenario and that IS what all bad news all the time would have to be considered.

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Zalmay Khalilzad - the U.S. Ambassador to Iraq and the man hand-picked by the President of the United States to be the top non-military representative in that Country - publicly acknowledged that the bombing and its aftermath brought the country to "the brink of civil war."

So? What does he know?

Mr. Cynic surely has better info. Does Khalilzad even know what a blog is?
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The truth about what is going on in Iraq can be found in what the troops there tell us.

Occasionally MrCynic says something meaningful but usually it is by accident. As silly as the headline to this thread is (and it is **** silly) let's take MrCynic's suggestion to heart.

Here is what the troops are saying:

• 29 percent said U.S. troops should withdraw immediately. Another 22 percent said the U.S. should withdraw within six months, and 21 percent within a year. Just 23 percent said they believe troops should remain “as long as they are needed.”

• 58 percent said the reasons for the U.S. mission in Iraq is clear in their minds; 42 percent said it was unclear or they were unsure.

• 85 percent said they believed a main reason for invading Iraq was “to retaliate for Saddam's role in the 9/11 attacks.” That's despite the fact that there is very little concrete evidence linking Saddam Hussein to al-Qaida, and that several independent inquiries have found no links whatsoever between Saddam and the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1566644.php

I agree with MrCynic.
We should listen to the troops and get the h out of there, especially since the troops are in a clearly flawed mission and do not even know why they are there.

Mish
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Yup, we're winning. Thirteen-hundred dead plus in a week and climbing. Day and night country wide curfew. Not a single Iraqi military unit capable of independent operation almost three years to the day since we invaded Iraq. Electrical production, lower than pre-invasion levels. Oil production, lower than pre-invasion levels. Industrial output, lower than pre-invasion levels. National unemployment? 50% to 60%. Child mortality rate? Worst in the Middle East. Refined petroleum products? IMPORTED to Iraq to support military operations because the country can't produce enough on its own. Pentagon says? We don't have enough troops to get through 2006 with 138K boots on the ground.

If this is a neo-con idea of "winning," I'd sure hate to see their idea of a loss.
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'The London bombings, which dominated the front pages here and abroad and resulted in 52 deaths? That's the level of death that the Iraqi people have suffered almost every week for nearly three years.'

Albaby,
Superb post.
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The truth about what is going on in Iraq can be found in what the troops there tell us. They point to their tremendous successes and to their plan, which is to quell the terrorists, train up the Iraqi security forces, and provide time for the establishment of a democratic government in opposition to the Islamists, all of which is proceeding apace.

I'm more and more convinced that you are either a paid or voluntary but nonetheless official messageboard shill for the Republican party. Your stuff is so unwaveringly talking-point-du-jour that it seems a little too freaky to be just ideological symbiosis.

Fess up, Cynic. Are you marching to orders?
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The news media is not being honest about what's going on in Iraq. They are being irresponsible and churlish in their opposition to American policy.

How do you know this for sure? Have you been in Iraq lately? Where in Iraq were you? Which Iraqis did you talk to? Or are you getting today's talking points from Rush, FoxNews and powerline?

By the way, your statement is very cute. It is almost EXACTLY what the leader from the Soviet Union said about the international media reporting about the Soviet invasion of Aghanistan in 1980. While the Soviet media reported the "truth", he thought BBC and the American media was outright irresponsible and churlish in their opposition to Soviet policy.
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Mr. Cynic

<The news media is not being honest about what's going on in Iraq. They are being irresponsible and churlish in their opposition to American policy.>

If things are going well and we are winning in Iraq why don't we see this on Fox news. Where are their reporters on the ground. Where are their reports from the people in the streets.

Fox
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lowstudent says

The situations you site are not remotely analagous.

Siting we are moving in the wrong direction in the US what does it accomplish

Please look up the word "site."

crassfool
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mishedlo says

Here is what the troops are saying:

• 29 percent said U.S. troops should withdraw immediately. Another 22 percent said the U.S. should withdraw within six months, and 21 percent within a year. Just 23 percent said they believe troops should remain “as long as they are needed.”

• 58 percent said the reasons for the U.S. mission in Iraq is clear in their minds; 42 percent said it was unclear or they were unsure.

Those are stunning numbers. I could be wrong, but I don't think the troops in Vietnam were that openly negative about "staying the course" even at the lowest point, when fragging was common and some units were in actual mutiny.

crassfool
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JDCRex says

Fess up, Cynic. Are you marching to orders?

I sure wouldn't do that kind of loudspeaker-on-a-post work for free.

crassfool
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"Those are stunning numbers. I could be wrong, but I don't think the troops in Vietnam were that openly negative about "staying the course" even at the lowest point, when fragging was common and some units were in actual mutiny."

THEY did not have the memories of Nam or the 60s then.

Ken
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Get Used To It: We Are Winning in Iraq

Oh look! A flying pig landing next to a pink elephant.

No really!
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The news media is not being honest about what's going on in Iraq. They are being irresponsible and churlish in their opposition to American policy.

Where does MrCynic get his information? Apparently here:

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/03/01/fox-media-civil-war/

FoxNews claims that the media is making up all these killings in Iraq. So, let me get this straight; the entire American media, the entire German media, the entire UK media, the entire media in Norway, the entire media in the world are conspiring to make this whole thing up?!

Do you realize how crazy we thought it was when some foreign people insinuated that we Americans had made 911 up? That it was created by Bush?

Well, you and your little Republican FoxNews channel is no better than those people who made uneducated claims about 911.
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Albaby,

I think you would make a good special ed teacher. I wonder where you get the patience from.
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