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Corporate Jet Owners!

Yes folks, they're back and the only reason we're in jeopardy of cutting off little Johnny from getting educated or medicare recipients from recieving much needed care is these loopholes to corporate jet owners and oil and gas companies........that are making record profits by the way!

I remember when the whole Bush Tax cuts expiring thing was going down and Boehner offered to close loopholes instead of raising tax rates and Obama said no, he said he'd veto anything that didn't raise taxes directly. So he got the tax raises and now he's back with the "loopholes" in order to have a "balanced approach". God i hate those people.
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What the hell happened to America. Why are people so green with envy.

When we were kids my Dad was a middle manager at a company, and I think he probably made around $40k per year. Anyway if there was a business trip to somewhere fun, once a year we'd join him....he'd pay the airfare and the company would of course be paying for the room. (Parents in bed, kids on the floor on spare blankets). Of course they'd sit thru a time-share pitch to score us free Disney tickets but I digress.

I remember at least a few times we'd be boarding the plane and of coure, 1st class passengers would already be sitting, relaxing. My Dad would always show me and lecture us.... "notice how those people are reading books and newspapers?" and during the flight we'd be told that if we worked, read books, and did smart things...well maybe then we could grow up and sit up there if we wanted.

No envy of achievement.

I'm so glad i grew up in America.

And I hate that the Left has destroyed America. They've hurt America more than Al Qaeda EVER could. Al Qaeda merely wants us out of the Middle East.

The LEft wants America out of America.

JediG
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My Dad would always show me and lecture us.... "notice how those people are reading books and newspapers?" and during the flight we'd be told that if we worked, read books, and did smart things...well maybe then we could grow up and sit up there if we wanted.

Same here. My parents were always quick to point out that if I wanted this or that, I had to work for it. I can't even count the number of times I heard my mother say, "God helps them who help themselves."
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The LEft wants America out of America.

JediG


Good one, Jedi. So good it bears repeating.
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Hi CC thanks for sharing.

Yeah, it just seems like parents, teacher, heck even scoutmaster or tee-ball coaches....I can't remember ONE "grown up" in my life that ever peddled envy but rather promoted the notion of achieving thru effort.

I think nowadays, all we can do is TRY to instill values in our own loved ones and kids. Let em go thru 'the system' because they have to....but do our darndest to make sure the system doesn't brainwash them into wanting mediocrity for everyone.

JediG
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Thanks. Hey just looked at your info! "Deanwoodward"....didn't you used to be on the PA board many years ago?

JediG
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And I hate that the Left has destroyed America.

I sincerely your concern and dismay, but it's not "the Left" that caused the problems you describe. I have no idea why you think so, because you refuse to say. It's a presumption I don't understand.
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And I hate that the Left has destroyed America.

I sincerely share your concern and dismay, but it's not "the Left" that caused the problems you describe. I have no idea why you think so, because you refuse to say. It's a presumption I don't understand.
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Hi Felix...

I don't deal with radicals and worse....on this board.

Thanks,. JediG
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I don't deal with radicals and worse....on this board.

Good to know.

You think I'm a radical? Or worse?
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I sincerely your concern and dismay, but it's not "the Left" that caused the problems you describe.

Feigning ignorance is a key component of the Left.
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What the hell happened to America. Why are people so green with envy.

It all started in 1984 with "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086750/

Both my parents grew up poor in Appalachia. They didn't know they were poor. They valued intelligence, integrity and hard work, not celebrity. Raised us kids in a frugal, middle class manner, with the same values and we didn't run into the smug, entitled rich kids until we went to college.

"Kids these days" see vapid celebrities and financial finaglers reap huge financial rewards while honest hard-working folks struggle. There's no "honor" or "pride" in being good at a modest job anymore, whether it's teacher, tradesman or shopkeeper. If you're not a star, you're a putz.

So you're right when you blame "culture," but it's not "leftist" culture. It's our crass, commercial celebrity culture that celebrates above all jerkwads like Donald Trump, useless airheads like Kim Kardashian, vulgar rappers and self-absorbed athletes.
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cc to each his own....but I try not to reply to the PA Radicals.

This board is for Americans, grown ups, normal people.

but of course if you enjoy it I don't fault to you. Screwing with them in their PA Zoo has become a hobby of mine ;)

JediG
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Feigning ignorance is a key component of the Left.

Maybe. But in your case is not fake, is it?
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So you're right when you blame "culture," but it's not "leftist" culture.

Yes, it is leftist culture. I grew up watching the same "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" and I STILL didn't (and don't) resent the rich and famous. I thought, "How cool. I bet they worked their asses off to afford those cars, clothes and mansions."

Why is that? Because my parents didn't seem to mind at all that others enjoyed fabulous lifestyles while they worked at middle class jobs. They didn't even seem to mind when they "struggled" at middle class jobs while the rich apparently didn't struggle.

I didn't (and don't) automatically assume the rich and famous got their wealth through lyin', cheatin' and stealin', even while acknowledging that lyin', cheatin' and stealin' goes on among the rich and fabulous. Hey, lyin', cheatin' and stealin' goes on among the poor and middle class too.

Wealth envy. It's ugly.
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Yes, it is leftist culture. I grew up watching the same "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" and I STILL didn't (and don't) resent the rich and famous.

Hold on. You're changing the game. We're talking about envy, not resentment.

Hardly anyone in the U.S. resents the rich and famous. We worship the wealthy, whether it's Mark Zuckerberg, Tiger Woods or Paris Hilton.

The only rich people folks resent -- or hate -- are people they think got rich by being crooks, like Wall Street bankers and some politicians. And even then, lots of people worship them too.
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I remember when the whole Bush Tax cuts expiring thing was going down and Boehner offered to close loopholes instead of raising tax rates and Obama said no, he said he'd veto anything that didn't raise taxes directly.

Except that Boehner never put forth legislation or any specific statements that specified which those loopholes would be closed. Everyone knows doing so would be political suicide.


regarding the rest of this thread, I cannot speak for everyone but personally I admire wealthy people, especially the quintessential self-made millionaire. I also teach my children about hard work and putting in the effort required to attain a goal. We probably agree on a lot more than you would imagine.

One thing that I think dramatically changed the social and economic climate in the Unites States is the when both parents working full time became the norm. I would guess that this started back in the 1970s, and there are likely many varied reasons why, but I do not think that lack of hard work or poor moral character are among them.
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I remember when the whole Bush Tax cuts expiring thing was going down and Boehner offered to close loopholes instead of raising tax rates and Obama said no, he said he'd veto anything that didn't raise taxes directly.-coolcat

Except that Boehner never put forth legislation or any specific statements that specified which those loopholes would be closed. Everyone knows doing so would be political suicide.

regarding the rest of this thread, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, admire wealthy people, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Socioeconomic gestalt, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 1970's, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, fair share.
------------------------------------------------------------
Riiiiight, exactly. Obama said he would veto anything that didn't raise tax rates because he was worried about Boehner and the republicans committing political suicide. Sorry, there were ideas put out there and Obama pre-emptively vetoed it, like capping deductions at a certain amount among other things.

Here's how democrats play it, if a republican comes up with ideas for revenue without raising tax rates then the democrats say he's wasting everyones time because the president will veto it anyway, as he said he would.

If the republicans don't come up with any ideas for closing loopholes because the president would veto it anyway then they didn't put anything on the table.

In conclusion, meh.
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If the republicans don't come up with any ideas for closing loopholes because the president would veto it anyway then they didn't put anything on the table.

I think that our lib friends have quite a future ahead of them in gay porn. It's a shame to think that do all of this for free.
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I was simply trying to add a civil comment to the conversation.

2828:

Socioeconomic gestalt, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 1970's, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, fair share.

307Wolverine:

I think that our lib friends have quite a future ahead of them in gay porn. It's a shame to think that do all of this for free.


You folks are not interested in any serious discussion, you just seem to enjoy your own oral flatulence. Enjoy the waning years of the republican party, it's thanks to people like you that the rational majority is moving on and giving up on ever reaching any kind of compromise with the likes of you.
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You folks are not interested in any serious discussion, you just seem to enjoy your own oral flatulence.
----------------------------------------------------
The problem is we are interested in serious discussion, but we aren't getting it from the likes of people you and your "we have to pass it to see what's in it", "the best thing you can do for the economy is give out unemployment checks" "You're saying we need to get into debt to get out of debt, that's exactly what i'm sayin'" representatives. The whole liberal establishment and their low info retarded voters make sure there's no serious discussion, if there starts to be a serious discussion they go straight to the war on women, gay rights, or pushing granny off a cliff. It's the party of perpetual adolescence only interested in "winning" politically, but not interested in solutions to problems. If you have any questions check out Illinois.
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xLife wrote: Hold on. You're changing the game. We're talking about envy, not resentment.

Resentment. Envy. Anger. Whatever. You libs just hate the wealthy, even though you'd like to be... Just. Like. Them.

Why don't you just admit it? You can't hack it. You're a loser...destined to remain a Big Fat Nothing. Which is just a shame since you live in this, the greatest country on God's green earth.
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You folks are not interested in any serious discussion, you just seem to enjoy your own oral flatulence.

Why don't you return to PA where the air is rarefied?
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You folks are not interested in any serious discussion,

Yet he keeps coming back
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unconscionable rudeness.....


I admire many people and despise others. wealth does not enter into it. someone's true measure rests elsewhere.

fd
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You folks are not interested in any serious discussion,

Yet he keeps coming back.

Why doesn't Beredian return to PA where "serious discussion" occurs daily? Unless you agree with him, you're not having a serious discussion. Pfffft!
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unconscionable rudeness...

Harrrrummph! I guess he told us!
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Why doesn't Beredian return to PA where "serious discussion" occurs daily?

Beridian is an embarassment to the Great State of Michigan.
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The LEft wants America out of America.

No, we don't even want conservatives out of America. We just want ugly bigots out of power, regulators with no spine out of the SEC, the government out of our pants, religion out of science policy, and people who can't do simple arithmetic out of the budget process.
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We just want ugly bigots out of power, regulators with no spine out of the SEC, the government out of our pants, religion out of science policy, and people who can't do simple arithmetic out of the budget process
**
SO YOU elect someone whose great friend and pastor was indeed a BIGOT and in that bigot's pews, was the man you support.

SEC? Sorry, Obama, Geithner, Lew, and everyone else from Wall Street that OWNS YOU aren't gonna clean up SEC and I'm glad.

Religion out of science policy? Religion, in its extreme form doesn't allow dissent. Kind of like the Global Warming religion. And like any good religion, these fundamentalists want to control other people's lives.

Budget process? Try proposing one first.

JediG
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Sorry, but you can't have religion out of science policy because evolution is still a theory. Since you can't prove the absence of a Creator, you're not going to drive Him out of existence through librul propaganda.

As to "bigots" out of power, don't forget who stonewalled freeing of the slaves in this country for 100 years.

Math always wins, so I suggest you libruls go back to basics. When a country spends more than it takes in, it either taxes its citizens into oblivion or it implodes from within like Europe.

Your post proves that liberalism is a mental disorder.
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CC- a scientific theory proven with the rigor of evolution is beyond question to anyone without blinders.

Moreover it is impossible to prove the negative of anything.

You lack a basic understanding of scientific principle and that is the cornerstone of your flawed political ideology.
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You libs just hate the wealthy, even though you'd like to be... Just. Like. Them.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Why don't you just admit it? You can't hack it. You're a loser...destined to remain a Big Fat Nothing. Which is just a shame since you live in this, the greatest country on God's green earth.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.
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a scientific theory proven with the rigor of evolution is beyond question to anyone without blinders.

I'm not disputing that the universe is billions of years old. You have no idea whether the universe started with a "bang!" (current theory) or a Creator intelligently created it.

"...the rigor of evolution..." Pfffft!
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"You have no idea whether the universe started with a "bang!" (current theory) or a Creator intelligently created it."


And you have to figure out who 'created' the creator, because the first rule of creationism is 'that everything must have a creator'. ....


duh!...

except, of course, your imaginary super thingies that magically appeared one day...all of them.....Big Daddy, Junior the SPook, the Devil, all the angels, cherubs and the thousands of helper beings......fairies..ghosts....

Give us another 20 30 years and we'll have it all figured out. How/when the big bang occurred....


t.
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You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't? You mean you're a wealthy (wo)man who thinks it's just fine to have the government confiscate your wealth through taxation?

I think I nailed it. You're GREEN with envy.
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Give us another 20 30 years and we'll have it all figured out. How/when the big bang occurred....

Waiting.....
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You really have no idea what you're talking about.
---
I don't? You mean you're a wealthy (wo)man who thinks it's just fine to have the government confiscate your wealth through taxation?


LOL. Those are my only two choices? I can be either a Big Fat Nothing Loser who hates rich people or a wealthy woman who loves paying taxes?

Can't I pick "guy who retired at 48, owns his own house, drives a nice car with plenty of money in the bank to last pretty much forever?"
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Can't I pick "guy who retired at 48, owns his own house, drives a nice car with plenty of money in the bank to last pretty much forever?"

Riiiight.
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"...the rigor of evolution..." Pfffft!

Actually, evolution is quite rigorously proven.

However, by definition it does not begin until there is life. It is not an explanation for the origin of life. (The problem with origin-of-life theories is that there are far too many of them that are extremely plausible and can't currently be eliminated, each of which would have had millions if not billions of plausible "attempts" per day in the period in which life began, and no way to ever prove which actually happened.)

And it does not in any way exclude the possibility of outside interference.
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Actually, evolution is quite rigorously proven.

And I think intelligent design is rigorously proven.

http://www.youtube.com/user/AlimaneStudios
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You lack a basic understanding of scientific principle and that is the cornerstone of your flawed political ideology.
___________________________________

People who are part of an army who believe that man made global warming is a fact, really, really should not complain about others lack of basic understanding of scientific principle.

THough I agree with Darwin, the folks making the scientific case against evolution have a quite interesting case too. Sorry, but you really do not seem to have a basic understanding of scientific principle, at least from appearances. There is a counter argument, I reject it personally, but it is reasonably persuasive/

As far as a flawed politic ideology. Frankly, only a moron would think that was part of this conversation -- so your handle on logic in general let alone the rigor of a non sold out scientist is really well beyond you from appearances.
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People who are part of an army who believe that man made global warming is a fact, really, really should not complain about others lack of basic understanding of scientific principle.

I think I've just been damned with faint praise. ;-)

Many scientists also believe in God. Many people's God is science, but one doesn't preclude the other.

The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief

http://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Eviden...

It has long been believed that science and faith cannot mingle. Faith rejects the rational, while science restricts us to a life with no meaning beyond the physical. It's an irreconcilable war between two polar-opposite ways of thinking and living. Written for believers, agnostics, and atheists alike, The Language of God provides a testament to the power of faith in the midst of suffering without faltering from its logical stride. Readers will be inspired by Collin’s personal story of struggling with doubt, as well as the many revelations of the wonder of God’s creation that will forever shape the way they view the world around them.

Francis Collins is an American physician-geneticist noted for his discoveries of disease genes and his leadership of the Human Genome Project (HGP). He currently serves as Director of the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Prior to being appointed Director, he was the founder and president of the BioLogos Foundation, an organization which promotes discourse on the relationship between science and religion and advocates the perspective that belief in Christianity can be reconciled with acceptance of evolution and science.

Interview on CNN: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml0FqyFYfrU
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Actually, evolution is quite rigorously proven.

And I think intelligent design is rigorously proven.


Intelligent design cannot be rigorously proven until we (a) prove the existence on earth of an intelligent designer during the necessary period and (b) prove the intelligence of the design.

And frankly, point (b) is going to be really tough - it would be easier to prove an insane or incompetent designer.

Evolution, on the other hand, is proven. We've seen it happen. Every facet of it. It does occur, it produces new species, it sends old species to extinction - sometimes because of rather subtle changes in the environment.
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I think I've just been damned with faint praise. ;-)
______________________________


Not in the least CC

I did not address your argument in any way.

I happen to have a daughter working her way toward becoming a scientist in the BioChem area and have a Scientist (level 2<grin>) working in private industry doing research, both believe in God and practice Catholicism, and you can have a quite interesting conversation regarding religion with those who have practiced it, live it, and understand the psychology as well as the mechanics.

Now I have my personal problems with Catholicism, but raised my daughter Catholic, she knows far more of the church than I do, her education regarding the church was very strong, and she sees flaws, but follows their doctrine. She was never pressured to be a religious person but was raised in a household where her mom and dad believed in God(though we did it differently)

anyway, yes there are folks in EVERY walk of life, from the most to least educated on all sides of the God question. Only arrogant putzes believe otherwise IMO
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Sorry, but you can't have religion out of science policy because evolution is still a theory.




You don't even seem to understand the meaning of "theory". A theory is the highest level of confirmation in science. Gravity is still a theory, and that's all it will ever be.
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"...the rigor of evolution..." Pfffft!

Actually, evolution is quite rigorously proven.




Well, the truth is that a theory can never be completely proven. But they can be disproved. The fact that evolution has held up for over 150 years is an indication that it must be pretty accurate, though.
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And I think intelligent design is rigorously proven.


http://www.youtube.com/user/AlimaneStudios




Intelligent Design is not a theory, because it makes no predictions such that, if the predictions turn out to be wrong, if fails.


Evolution makes many such predictions, and it hasn't failed yet.
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<<<<<< I'm BI.

I go both ways.

I believe in evolution

But I believe in some form of almighty...just don't know who or what.

Evolution? Ok, someone made the monkey.

Big bang?

Ok.

But someone put the stuff there that caused the bang.


"It was just there".

Just there? Wow, brilliant science.

JediG
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I go both ways.

I believe in evolution

But I believe in some form of almighty...just don't know who or what.

Evolution? Ok, someone made the monkey.

Big bang?

Ok.

But someone put the stuff there that caused the bang.


"It was just there".

Just there? Wow, brilliant science.
--------------------

I'm beyond all that. I just don't care. Que sera, sera.

arrete
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I hear ya.

But I'm curious. I'd love to know.

JediG
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I hear ya.

But I'm curious. I'd love to know.
--------------

Let the mystery be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlaoR5m4L80

arrete
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Gravity is still a theory, and that's all it will ever be.

Um, I'm pretty sure they now call it the Law of Gravity.

But you can test it as a theory if you want. I suggest the Empire State Building.
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I believe in evolution. But I believe in some form of almighty...just don't know who or what.

I, too, believe in evolution, which was God's way of forming the universe--the huge, volatile, intricate, complex, astounding, magnificant, miraculous, incomprehensible universe.
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A theory is the highest level of confirmation in science. Gravity is still a theory, and that's all it will ever be.

http://thehappyscientist.com/science-experiment/gravity-theo...

While laws rarely change, theories change frequently as new evidence is discovered. Instead of being discarded due to new evidence, theories are often revised to include the new evidence in their explanation. The Theory of General Relativity has adapted as new technologies and new evidence have expanded our view of the universe.

So when we are scientifically discussing gravity, we can talk about the law that describes the attraction between two objects, and we can also talk about the theory that describes why the objects attract each other.
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"I hear ya. But I'm curious. I'd love to know." - JediG


I'm betting on the holographic universe, NDE, and death bed vision theory. It's the one that makes the most sense to me. It's where I'm placing my bets.

Art
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But someone put the stuff there that caused the bang.


To what stuff are you referring?


"It was just there".


Whose words are you quoting?
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I hear ya.

But I'm curious. I'd love to know.



Hawking's latest book, The Grand Design, answers your questions as well as they're likely to be answered.
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Gravity is still a theory, and that's all it will ever be.
-----
Um, I'm pretty sure they now call it the Law of Gravity.

But you can test it as a theory if you want. I suggest the Empire State Building.





Nobody's arguing that there is a force. But where does the force come from? How is it transmitted?


Nobody knows. We know less about gravity than we do evolution.
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FNMH:"Nobody's arguing that there is a force. But where does the force come from? How is it transmitted?


Nobody knows. We know less about gravity than we do evolution. "


------



Correction: Nobody knows YET....we're working on both.....

and both follow laws that we are fairly confident in.......


Soon another Einstein will come along and unify the existing theories on gravity and combine them all together in a grand scheme.

As to evolution....it is quite well documented...... only the 'deniers' have problems and that is because of their primitive religious superstitions....


t.
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only the 'deniers' have problems and that is because of their primitive religious superstitions....


Ahhhhh, so that's my problem. Thank you very much for the enlightenment.
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"Nobody's arguing that there is a force. But where does the force come from? How is it transmitted?


Nobody knows. We know less about gravity than we do evolution. "


------



Correction: Nobody knows YET....we're working on both.....

and both follow laws that we are fairly confident in.......


Soon another Einstein will come along and unify the existing theories on gravity and combine them all together in a grand scheme.

As to evolution....it is quite well documented...... only the 'deniers' have problems and that is because of their primitive religious superstitions....



Agreed!
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But someone put the stuff there that caused the bang.
To what stuff are you referring?
"It was just there".
Whose words are you quoting?

TMF confers special medallions for the most informative, engaging and intelligent posters on the Fool. Does TMF likewise confer medallions for the most inept, nonsensical, boring and annoying posters? If so, I would like to nominate FeedMeCrap.
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"But someone put the stuff there that caused the bang."


Really? Trillions and trillions and trillions of tons of stuff?

Just where did your 'someone' get all the stuff from to put there? really? There weren't exactly stores to go out and buy gigatons of plutonium and uranium and xenon gas and hydrogen and helium........


Just as silly an argument saying 'someone' had to put all the stuff there. You got two problems. where did the 'someone' come from? something or someone had to create 'them', right? From what? and were did all the stuff they 'got' come from to start the big bang?


Face it..we don't know that answer yet.....but we don't have to make up silly primitive superstitious myths to explain it all..myths that fail even more spectacularly when you look at them.

t
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Those are perfectly legitimate questions. Who says there was any 'stuff' before the Big Bang?

Who is claiming 'stuff' was 'just there'?


Nobody that I'm aware of.
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Face it..we don't know that answer yet.....but we don't have to make up silly primitive superstitious myths to explain it all..myths that fail even more spectacularly when you look at them.

The Lord understands your dilemma, telegraph.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. ~ 1 Corinthians 113:12
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Those are perfectly legitimate questions. Who says there was any 'stuff' before the Big Bang? Who is claiming 'stuff' was 'just there'?

Nobody that I'm aware of.

FeedMeCrap don't know nuthin'. He just exists.
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Nobody that I'm aware of.

FeedMeCrap don't know nuthin'

That's the first honest thing he's said.
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Hi Tele...

I'm curious and open minded on this topic, so unlike you i don't need to summarily and absolutely win the argument.

I am comfortable knowing that I have no idea what happened so many centuries ago.

I am also comfortable believing that, UNLIKE devout religious people, I'm not willing to accept that things "just happen". I don't have that kind of devotion to Christ, Allah, or Athiesm.

But you are positive that all that matter just happened to be there.

And I respect that.

JediG
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Jedi:"But you are positive that all that matter just happened to be there.

And I respect that."

Actually, the current theories are that every now and then, there is a cycle where things end.....and collapse.....and you get a singularity.....where matter and energy are interchanged..

Perhaps before the big bang...there was nothing but energy.....and a bubble in space time caused large quantities of energy to turn into matter.


You likely know that E equals MC squared....where you can turn matter into energy or vice versa......

So...given Art's holographic universe, with 'planes' of simultaneous existence....... we could be simply a bubble in another gigantic universe that morphed into our current universe that someday will cease as bubble...and another one will form eons into space time and it will all repeat all over again and again infinitum.

No need for superstitions ..... we know why it rains, we know why hurricanes and tornadoes form, and why there is thunder after lightning and why folks die from diseases. No need for silly Thor's hammer or other things to explain 'life'.


t.
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But you are positive that all that matter just happened to be there.



Nobody's making that claim. The sum total of mass-energy in the universe appears to be zero. Mass-energy and gravity are opposites that cancel each other out, totaling zero. That means no matter had to be created. The matter we see is just a temporary local accumulation, borrowed from the vacuum.
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"Hawking's latest book, The Grand Design, answers your questions as well as they're likely to be answered." - feedmenowhuman


60% to 65% of peopley who are dying in hospice have what are called "death bed visions." They see deceased relatives and say things like that these deceased loved ones have come for them, or that they are going on a trip. Some of them even predict the exact day and time of their own death, saying things like "I'll be leaving at noon on Monday."

These experiences are universal, meaning they happen all over the world. In the book "At The Hour of Death" by Karlis Osis PhD he and Ehrlendur Harraldson did a study and sent out over 5,000 questionaires to doctors and nurses in India and the United STates. The stories they got back from both places were almost identical.

So the question is, why do people all over the world have these experiences? What possible evolutionary benefit can they have? How do these experiences increase the evolutionary fitness of the dying individual?

Evolution doesn't care about giving us a "good death" or about how comfortable we are when we are dying - nor can these experiences increase the evolutionary fitness of these people because they are dying! Yet these experiences are common and happen all the time. I have personally talked to many people in church and at the Y in Athens, Georgia and have heard stories about relatives who died who reported death bed visions.

So? Why do they exist? Unless they are exactly what they purport to be, visits from the other side of their deceased relatives come to help their loved ones cross over?

Art
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"Those are perfectly legitimate questions. Who says there was any 'stuff' before the Big Bang?
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Who is claiming 'stuff' was 'just there'?
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Nobody that I'm aware of." - feedmenowhuman

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"Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real." - Niels Bohr, one of the founders of modern quantum physics

Just for the record there is no "stuff." There are only forces that give the illusion of 'stuff'. Atoms are mostly ghostly empty space, 99.9999999% empty space to be exact. If an atom were the size of the Empire State Building the nucleus would be the size of a grain of rice and the electrons little more than clouds swirling around the outside. And the sub atomic particles themselves are hardly like anything we've come to know as matter, more like swirling eddies in a stream than a rock or a BB.

Art
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"No need for superstitions ..... we know why it rains, we know why hurricanes and tornadoes form, and why there is thunder after lightning and why folks die from diseases. No need for silly Thor's hammer or other things to explain 'life'. " - tele
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Just for the record many atheists have had near death experiences and they all almost universally change their minds about God and life after death. In fact Dr. Eben Alexander was an unbeliever till his NDE. He thought they were fantasies and/or hallucinations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW_dxq-KaME

Art
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He thought they were fantasies and/or hallucinations

I always thought they were caused by the Bush tax cuts for the rich.
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So? Why do they exist?

You need to ask FeedMeCrap. He knows everything.
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Just for the record many atheists have had near death experiences and they all almost universally change their minds about God and life after death.

Please explain why some people experience positive NDEs and some people experience negative NDEs. I don't think your theory, "Well, you get what you expect" holds much water. Got any other theories about why some people experience negative NDEs that are uncannily as described in the Bible?
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You need to ask FeedMeCrap. He knows everything

So today is Opposite Day?
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"Please explain why some people experience positive NDEs and some people experience negative NDEs. I don't think your theory, "Well, you get what you expect" holds much water." - catherine
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I'm sorry, I've explained it to you three times. You are just being obstinate and argumentative. Talking to you is like beating my head against a brick wall.

You can be a real pain in the arse sometimes.

Art
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Art whines: You can be a real pain in the arse sometimes.

But you can't? LOL!!!
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"But you can't? LOL!!!" - catherine


The difference is that you're just mean to be mean. You talk about being a Christian but I see very little love and compassion in your posts. It's like you really don't even know what Jesus stood for? Like life has been unkind to you so you take it out on others.

Art
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The difference is that you're just mean to be mean.

I am predestined to give you a hug.
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The difference is that you're just mean to be mean. You talk about being a Christian but I see very little love and compassion in your posts. It's like you really don't even know what Jesus stood for? Like life has been unkind to you so you take it out on others.

That's YOUR opinion, Art. You're just pissed off because I personally don't buy your lame approach to the meaning of the universe. Too bad, so sad.
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okay now, insanity is doing the same thing over again expecting different results.

Y'all know you don't agree on this subject and no amount of debating will change anyone's mind. We all have our opinions and just because Idon't agree with them, I don't have to debate, argue, browbeat, belittle....you get the idea.


we can all get along.....just think of the other person sitting across from you at the kitchen table.....no, not those PA gnats and nits, the regulars here....we have history here so ease up on the flare-ups please.....I hate listening or reading arguments, it upsets my delicate system. :)

I know I'm asking for trouble posting this chances are great I'll get ticked off and react like a very upset and visious dog at one of you....people. :)

LuckyDog
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we can all get along.....just think of the other person sitting across from you at the kitchen table

I would say the same thing. It isn't a matter of "getting along;" it's a matter of not agreeing all the time just because someone is an old fat guy from Arkansas (Art's words; not mine) postinh a particular theory RELENETLESSLY.
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postinh a particular theory RELENETLESSLY

Art says that many people contact him privately. Since we never see these e-mails, we'll have to take him at his word. The "audience" is much larger than the regulars that post here. The Fool is a large and ever changing community. So he is exposing many people to his theories for the first time virtually every day.

Since I adhere to the "different strokes for different folks" theory of life I usually move on. I know that I am not his target audience.

He may have answered your good NDE/bad NDE question a few times. I wouldn't know. I seldom read the links he provides, alhough I have looked at a few lately. In any event, I don't think what he posts is worth fighting over. He believes what he believes and you believe what you believe. To each their own.

I don't have all the answers, and I don't mind admitting it.
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Actually, I rarely read Art's NDE posts, either, but I don't perceive what I post in response to some of his NDE postings as "fighting." Why can't Art defend his POV just as everyone else defends their POV? It looks to me like Art wants to post unopposed his unorthodox theory about the meaning of the universe, which is a sophomoric position to take, in my opinion.

The practical reality is this: Art has no cogent rebuttal for the F-A-C-T that many MANY people report extremely negative, blood-curdling and menacing NDEs. This scares the begeezers out of Art; he just doesn't want to discuss it because this F-A-C-T blows his whole theory.

Nothing I can do about that.
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Why can't Art defend his POV just as everyone else defends their POV? It looks to me like Art wants to post unopposed his unorthodox theory about the meaning of the universe, which is a sophomoric position to take, in my opinion.

Art is no different than anybody else on this score. He has a lot of ego investment in his value system, so when you attack it, you attack him.

Look at our liberal friends. For them it is an Article of Faith that certain things just are. If you point out how our economic problems are the result of failed liberal policies, they don't wanna hear it, so they defend, even when there is no logic to their answers. Attacking liberalism is attacking them.

To Art, belief is irrelevant, except when it is his belief.
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To Art, belief is irrelevant, except when it is his belief.

Exactly! That's what's so humorous about it.
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Why don't you just admit it? You can't hack it. You're a loser...destined to remain a Big Fat Nothing. Which is just a shame since you live in this, the greatest country on God's green earth. - CC

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Happy balloon day superpatriot CC.

bhm, posting from Gaylord MI where it is 16 degrees.
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hey big mike....didn't you leave yesterday for your fun fest with the guys?

I think you said you had 2 wks to do the he-man thing...let your beard grow out and do manly things. Hope you have a great time and you come back all refreshed and full of stories to tell us.

LuckyDog
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"To Art, belief is irrelevant, except when it is his belief." wolverine


The point is that everything is a dream and you don't hate people in your dream. All the homophobia, arguments, the constant bickering and judging that goes on is stupid and pointless because this life is just a holographic projection.

That's the point I'm trying to get across.

So go on bitching and complaining and bickering and arguing if you want to.....

I'm done with it.

Art
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The point is that everything is a dream and you don't hate people in your dream. All the homophobia, arguments, the constant bickering and judging that goes on is stupid and pointless because this life is just a holographic projection.

That's the point I'm trying to get across


My point is that all spiritual absolutists don't know what they're talking about. I apply that to the atheists who spout their beliefs with as much conviction as the theists they condemn.
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OCD: I also apply that to the atheists who spout their beliefs with as much conviction as the theists they condemn.
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So go on bitching and complaining and bickering and arguing if you want to.....

I'm done with it.

Art
_____________________

Say what you want, one way or the other you really have no choice.
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So go on bitching and complaining and bickering and arguing if you want to. I'm done with it.

Say what you want, one way or the other you really have no choice.

That's why it's silly to say human beings are not at choice--all day every day.
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The point is that everything is a dream and you don't hate people in your dream.

It's not a matter of "hating people." Justice has nothing to do with hate. Indeed, justice is about loving life and honoring the people who try to live their lives so as not to hurt others by appropriately punishing those who do.
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So go on bitching and complaining and bickering and arguing if you want to.....

I'm done with it.



Art:

I’ve been thinking about your response to the comments here. Let me ask you some questions….

Do you have any boundaries? If so, do you get upset when people don’t respect them? If someone repeatedly tried to run your life, would you get angry at them, or would you simply allow them to do what they want simply to avoid arguing?

What you see/read on this forum is a normal reaction to people violating personal boundaries. I didn’t invite these busybodies into my life. They invited themselves and I am resisting.

For some reason, I can’t see you passively sitting by while strangers violate your home. You’d resist, or would you? If you want to get angry at somebody, get angry at those who insist on violating my God given rights as a human being.
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