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Thank you so much Stetson. I have actually watched several videos with Dr. Eben Alexander. He had a fairly deep and profound NDE so it really changed him. That is one of the aftereffects of the experience regardless of one's former beliefs. It really doesn't make any difference if one is an atheist or not, something incredibly profound happens when we die and I don't believe it's a simple hallucination or wishful thinking generated by the brain. If that were true then why don't people just hallucinate "here" stuff instead of "there" stuff? Why don't they simply hallucinate that they are back home with their families and loved ones that are still alive rather than these "too good to be true" experiences? People say they knew that they were dead, that they didn't want to come back, that they felt an overwhelming feeling of love, oneness, connectedness, etc.

Thanks again, Art
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Art wrote: People say they knew that they were dead, that they didn't want to come back, that they felt an overwhelming feeling of love, oneness, connectedness, etc.

But they did come back. Now what will Dr. Eben do or believe about the experience--that all he needs to do is die again and repeat the experience?

I don't think so. To have a glimpse of Heaven and then not investigate what's required to make it a permanent experience upon death is just plain crazy, in my opinion.

Here's another NDE with a decidedly different slant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVi1GAHrILI
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Now that I meandered over to YouTube, it's equally fascinating how many NEGATIVE NDEs there are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-v1Fppjlvc&feature=relat...

Art, do you pay much attention to people's visits to Hell?
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I had an NDE once. When I was 12 I called my Dad an azzhole. I thought he was going to kill me.
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Here's another NDE with a decidedly different slant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVi1GAHrILI catherine



In the Tibetan Book of the Dead which bears a striking resemblance to near death experience descriptions the book is read to the newly departed. In the book it says "do not be afraid of the demons you encounter because they are only projections of your own mind."

Whatever you focus your attention on, that is what you see and experience. "As a man thinketh, so is he."

Art
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"Now that I meandered over to YouTube, it's equally fascinating how many NEGATIVE NDEs there are."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-v1Fppjlvc&feature=relat......

"Art, do you pay much attention to people's visits to Hell?" - catherine


-----------------

It's like riding in a roller coaster. Some people love them and some people are terrified. Negative NDE's are a byproduct of fear. If you are fearful that is what you will feel.

What is interesting is that if it lasts long enough most fearful/negative NDE's turn positive. When a person calls out for the Light the experience turns positive.

Artie
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""Now that I meandered over to YouTube, it's equally fascinating how many NEGATIVE NDEs there are."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-v1Fppjlvc&feature=relat.........

"Art, do you pay much attention to people's visits to Hell?" - catherine

----------------------------


Catherine if you focus so much on Hell that might be what you see and experience after you cross over.

Art
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Art wrote: Whatever you focus your attention on, that is what you see and experience. "As a man thinketh, so is he."

I see. How convenient. If the experience is glorious, it's Heaven, and we're all going to go there. If the experience is horrendous, "it's all in your mind."
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"I see. How convenient. If the experience is glorious, it's Heaven, and we're all going to go there. If the experience is horrendous, "it's all in your mind." - catherine


If you spend your whole life focused on the negative that will be the measure of your life. A life filled with negativity.

Whatever is good, whatever is positive, whatever is uplifting, whatever builds people up, think on these things for that is what your life will be made of.


Art
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Whatever is good, whatever is positive, whatever is uplifting, whatever builds people up, think on these things for that is what your life will be made of.

______________________________

How can that be, since you really make no choices, and it all comes out in the wash at the end anyway?

Screw em all and enjoy yourself. Unless your joy is not enjoying yourself.
You like filet mignon? Steal it! If you are busted? You were meant to go to prison anyway it was all predestined

That is why discussing beliefs is so very difficult in this type of forum. While I know this does not represent your philosophy from all surface appearances, it encapsulates it quite well, it is always easy to tear down or conversely skim the surface positively.

That's why I enjoy when you go off on a tangent, you provide a lot of interesting information and jump off points for learning, when you or any of us tries to explain in the finite details, it takes more than is there to make sense.

OK, carry on, and I do mean that sincerely<grin>
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What I find amusing is the degree of emotional energy that is being investing into "winning" this abstract argument from several people.
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OK, carry on

Carry on
Love is coming
Love is coming to us all
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"Screw em all and enjoy yourself. Unless your joy is not enjoying yourself. You like filet mignon? Steal it! If you are busted? You were meant to go to prison anyway it was all predestined. That is why discussing beliefs is so very difficult in this type of forum. While I know this does not represent your philosophy from all surface appearances, it encapsulates it quite well, it is always easy to tear down or conversely skim the surface positively." lowstudent
--------------


I've tried that and it doesn't work. Unfortunately I've got a conscious that works. I've tried being immoral and my damn conscious kicks in and makes me feel guilty about it. Like when I had sex with that married woman when I was nineteen years old. One part of me wanted to keep doing it and the other part of me told me "this is wrong and no good can come of it." The moral part of me won and so we only did it one time. Of course I was fired a week later. I suspicion that if I had kept boinking the wife my tenure at the swimming pool company would have been a whole lot longer.

Artie
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What I find amusing is the degree of emotional energy that is being investing into "winning" this abstract argument from several people.
------------------

Me, too. I'm with Iris Dement - Let the mystery be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlaoR5m4L80

CHORUS:
Everybody is wonderin' what and where they all came from
Everybody is worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go
When the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain
And so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Some say once gone you're gone forever
And some say you're gonna come back
Some say you rest in the arms of The Savior
If in sinful ways you lack
Some say that they're comin' back in a garden
Bunch of carrots and little sweet peas
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory
And I ain't sayin' it ain't a fact
But I've heard that I'm on the road to purgatory
And I don't like the sound of that
I believe in love and I live my life accordingly
But I choose to let the mystery be

arrete
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"What I find amusing is the degree of emotional energy that is being investing into "winning" this abstract argument from several people." wolverine


Yeah, nobody is going to win because we all viewing the kaleidoscope that is life from different angles. We are all seeing something different. Each one of us approaches the question of life different because we all have grown up in different environments and and our brains are hardwired differently.

You are right, we will never come to a general consensus. Just like politics. We see the world differently.

Artie
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Yeah, nobody is going to win because we all viewing the kaleidoscope that is life from different angles. We are all seeing something different. Each one of us approaches the question of life different because we all have grown up in different environments and and our brains are hardwired differently.
_______________________

I think it is a great conversation, on the rare occurrence that you have folks of good will that can discuss this openly.

In fact at an RECF summit, I could imagine us all drinking ourselves into a coma discussing and picking it up again in the morning and it still be interesting.

IMO, This is just a lousy forum in general for this type of intricate topic.
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arrete says, "Me, too. I'm with Iris Dement - Let the mystery be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlaoR5m4L80



I actually bookmarked that song on Youtube after the first time you posted it. I thought Iris Dement was cute and her song was enchanting. In fact later when I went to McKay's in Nashville I bought a used copy of the CD the song was on. There are also some other songs on the CD that I like, like "Our Town."

Every once in a while I'll listen to Iris sind "Let the Mystery Be" while I'm surfing the internet or reading my message boards.

It's just talking about NDE's and the holographic universe is a whole lot more interesting to me than arguing about politics. Politics causes a great pain between my ears.

Artie
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"I think it is a great conversation, on the rare occurrence that you have folks of good will that can discuss this openly. In fact at an RECF summit, I could imagine us all drinking ourselves into a coma discussing and picking it up again in the morning and it still be interesting. IMO, This is just a lousy forum in general for this type of intricate topic." lowstudent


It's just something I'm interested in. That and the price of chicken leg quarters. I like talking about sales at grocery stores, where to get the best buys. I also like talking about movies and TV shows, cooking, Florida, snorkeling, places to retire, travel, etc.

I have actually been reading all of Fleg's posts about Prague and Austria and the Iron Curtain and stuff like that. I wouldn't want to go there myself but it is fun to read about it.

I also like and enjoy Andrew's posts about Chicago and where he goes out to eat and how much it costs. It's amazing to me he can live there on ~ $24,000/year. Who knew? He does a lot of walking, which I know is healthy, but there is no way my hips and back would hold out with all that walking. If I lived there I'd probably do a whole lot more cooking. I'd have to get one of those two wheeled grocery carts like my mom used to have - to haul groceries back to my apartment to cook. If I lived in the same building as Andrew I'd invite him up to enjoy my cooking.

And I like reading about Chadron, Nebraska. I think I'm sort of in love with Catmeyoo. What a woman. Her posts are so interesting. I even read the ones where she talks about music and musicians. We sort of have the same taste in music, except for the jazz and blues stuff. Anyway Catmeyoo is a sweetheart.

Art
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lowstudent wrote: How can that be, since you really make no choices, and it all comes out in the wash at the end anyway? Screw em all and enjoy yourself. Unless your joy is not enjoying yourself. You like filet mignon? Steal it! If you're busted? You were meant to go to prison anyway it was all predestined. That is why discussing beliefs is so very difficult in this type of forum.

Actually, I appreciate having my critical thinking skills validated from time to time--as you just did.
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Art wrote: Unfortunately I've got a conscious that works.

There's your first clue. From "Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis

Right and Wrong as a Clue to the Meaning of the Universe

1. The Law Of Human Nature

Every one has heard people quarrelling. Sometimes it sounds funny and sometimes it sounds merely unpleasant; but however it sounds, I believe we can learn something very important from listening to the kind of things they say. They say things like this:

"How'd you like it if anyone did the same to you?"
"That's my seat, I was there first!"
"Leave him alone, he isn't doing you any harm."
"Why should you shove in first?"
"Give me a bit of your orange, I gave you a bit of mine."
"Come on, you promised."

People say things like that every day, educated people as well as uneducated, and grown-ups as well as children. Now what interests me about all these remarks is that the man who makes diem is not merely saying that the other man's behaviour does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behaviour which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies, "To hell with your standard."

Nearly always he tries to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard, or that if it does there is some special excuse. He pretends there is some special reason in this particular case why the person who took the seat first should not keep it, or that things were quite different when he was given the bit of orange, or that something has turned up which lets him off keeping his promise.

More at: http://usminc.org/images/MereChristianitybyCSLewis.pdf
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Art wrote: Unfortunately I've got a conscious that works.
_________________________

It is funny, I kinda thought he might have forgotten that conversation he had with God when God told him NDEs are the answer.

I think the God part got through, as I do not doubt he had the conversation, there seems a good deal of good to the man.

Then again, I don't know him and he may actually be Satan's spawn and that is why he is so good with food around a flame<grin>
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wolverine wrote: What I find amusing is the degree of emotional energy that is being investing into "winning" this abstract argument from several people.

Discussion board members expend ENORMOUS energy on other esoteric and even mundane topics without complaining, yet when it comes to spiritual topics, some people simply can't stand the discussion. Why is that?

Because their belief system is being challenged.

If their belief system is challenged, they must re-think their position.

If they re-think their position, they may be required to make a decision.

If they're required to make a decision, it may upset their lifestyle.

They don't want to upset their lifestyle. They like running their own show.
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Art wrote: That and the price of chicken leg quarters. I like talking about sales at grocery stores, where to get the best buys.

Shopping for best buys on groceries works only if (1) one's local grocery stores are reasonably close together; and (2) the price of gasoline isn't sky high--which it is now.
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"Shopping for best buys on groceries works only if (1) one's local grocery stores are reasonably close together; and (2) the price of gasoline isn't sky high--which it is now." catherine


If you got a whole lot to buy it sometimes pays to go a little bit further and stock up. I really like Aldis for produce and canned goods. Also eggs are much cheaper at Aldis than Krogers.

I'm really into consolidating my trips together and making one outing as profitable as possible. Like if I have to go to the Doctor I'll try and hit all the grocery stores close to his office and on the way home. I sort of make a circle.

My little Nissan Sentra gets about 31 miles to the gallon in town so it's not too onerous driving to the store. There is a Kroger about a mile from my house that we use for for short trips to buy a few items but when I want to stock up I'll go to Aldi's which is much cheaper and stock up. Problem is that Aldis is about 6 miles from our house. Aldis is close to Sam's Club and Wal-mart so when I go to one I also go to the other two.

Art
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Discussion board members expend ENORMOUS energy on other esoteric and even mundane topics without complaining, yet when it comes to spiritual topics, some people simply can't stand the discussion. Why is that?

I don't know if this was meant for me or not, but if it is, who said I was complaining?

Discuss away.
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wolverine wrote: I don't know if this was meant for me or not, but if it is, who said I was complaining?

I was not referring to you. Many discussion boards quickly change the subject when spiritual topics come up. Many people are uncomfortable discussing matters of an eternal nature.
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What I find amusing is the degree of emotional energy that is being investing into "winning" this abstract argument from several people.

That's why I just say that Art chooses to believe in predestination but the gods have decreed that I must disagree with him.

(And then I laugh at anyone who thinks about that statement too much and gets their brain tied in a knot.)
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Me, too. I'm with Iris Dement - Let the mystery be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlaoR5m4L80

CHORUS:
Everybody is wonderin' what and where they all came from
Everybody is worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go
When the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain
And so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Some say once gone you're gone forever
And some say you're gonna come back
Some say you rest in the arms of The Savior
If in sinful ways you lack
Some say that they're comin' back in a garden
Bunch of carrots and little sweet peas
I think I'll just let the mystery be

Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory
And I ain't sayin' it ain't a fact
But I've heard that I'm on the road to purgatory
And I don't like the sound of that
I believe in love and I live my life accordingly
But I choose to let the mystery be

arrete



I myself like the Indigo Girls' much more succinct version:

"There's more than one answer to these questions
Pointing me in a crooked line
And the less I seek my Source for some definitive
The closer I am to Fine."
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I have actually been reading all of Fleg's posts about Prague and Austria and the Iron Curtain and stuff like that. I wouldn't want to go there myself but it is fun to read about it.


I'm still wondering why you didn't ask fleg about coral reefs the way you did that guy who is visiting London. <grin>
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I also like and enjoy Andrew's posts about Chicago and where he goes out to eat and how much it costs. It's amazing to me he can live there on ~ $24,000/year. Who knew?


Actually, my annual budget is currently $25,200. It helps enormously that I no longer have a car -- that keeps my costs down. I could pare it down even further if I were willing to get a cheaper apartment, of which there are plenty. But I think I'll stay put in my current place, at least for as long as I can.
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Shopping for best buys on groceries works only if (1) one's local grocery stores are reasonably close together; and (2) the price of gasoline isn't sky high--which it is now.


It works for me. (1) The four major supermarkets within walking distance of me are all within two to three blocks of each other; and (2) I walk on those errands, so the price of gasoline is irrelevant.
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"I'm still wondering why you didn't ask fleg about coral reefs the way you did that guy who is visiting London." - andrew


I guess I had all ready pulled that joke one time plus I think Fleg would just ignore me. Ya'll know me too well.

I really do like to "vacation" in more tropical type locales.

Artie
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Andrew responds, "I could pare it down even further if I were willing to get a cheaper apartment, of which there are plenty. But I think I'll stay put in my current place, at least for as long as I can."


You could pare it down even further if you ate out less often and cooked more at home. I know that's not your thing but that's what I'd do. Probably by a couple thousand dollars. Of course that is one of the attractions of living in Downtown Chicago is getting to eat out at different restaurants.

I just like to cook and like my own food and I'm a horrible cheapskate. Most women wouldn't put up with me. It's amazing my wife is so understanding and accepting of my idiosyncrasies.

Artie
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Andrew tells us, "I walk on those errands, so the price of gasoline is irrelevant."


All that walking has got to be good for you. I don't understand how you can have any health problems. You should be in excellent shape!

Artie
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You could pare it down even further if you ate out less often and cooked more at home. I know that's not your thing but that's what I'd do. Probably by a couple thousand dollars. Of course that is one of the attractions of living in Downtown Chicago is getting to eat out at different restaurants.

I just like to cook and like my own food and I'm a horrible cheapskate. Most women wouldn't put up with me. It's amazing my wife is so understanding and accepting of my idiosyncrasies.

Artie



If I cooked and ate at home, I wouldn't get to peoplewatch while I ate. I like being out and eating someplace located at a busy streetcorner, sitting at a counter in the window and enjoying the scenery.

Besides, I'm much too disorganized to cook. I'd have to stock up on tons of ingredients, half of which would go bad before I used them up and I'd end up throwing away a lot. When you cook for one there's usually leftovers which usually have a limited shelf life. To avoid wasting food I'd have to eat the same thing tomorrow or the next day that I ate today, when maybe I'd prefer more variety than that. And don't tell me to freeze things -- I don't have a huge freezer sitting on a back porch.

By eating out, I'm helping to keep people employed and prospering. Helping to keep my city's economy thriving. It's my way of contributing to the world. <grin>
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I myself like the Indigo Girls' much more succinct version:

There's more than one answer to these questions
Pointing me in a crooked line
And the less I seek my Source for some definitive
The closer I am to Fine.


I thought Elvis Costello put it best:

Shes one of those girls that you just can't place
You feel guilty desiring such an innocent face
But of course they knew that when they cast her
Along with the red Routemaster
And the film takes place in an MGB
And a perfect re-creation of the speakeasy
Everybody looks happy and twisted
Though she probably never existed
For old times sake
Don't let me awake

--fleg
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All that walking has got to be good for you. I don't understand how you can have any health problems. You should be in excellent shape!

Artie



Just imagine if I did all that walking and ate flax seed and drank barley grass juice like decath -- I bet all my health problems would just melt away!
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