No. of Recommendations: 2
I also would not build a new house or do a major wiring update on a house, without adding a dedicated 50 amp 3 phase circuit in the garage. Those things will obviously become more important with time.

50amp/240V yes. 3-phase no. Not only is 3-phase basically impossible to get in a residential setting, but home chargers aren't designed for it.

But the 50/240 is also handy for my RV. ;)
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So the car you can buy today that you are going to reasonably keep until it dies of old age is a Tesla or nothing. Five years from now anything other than an EV will be highly undesirable -- it will be expensive to maintain, hard to fuel, and restricted as to where it can go. In ten years it will be essentially worthless."

********************************************************
Maybe your logic is why everybody is building recharging station everywhere and
hotels and motels next door to them for people to stay in while the cars charge?

Howie52
Or not.
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IGU writes,

So the car you can buy today that you are going to reasonably keep until it dies of old age is a Tesla or nothing. Five years from now anything other than an EV will be highly undesirable -- it will be expensive to maintain, hard to fuel, and restricted as to where it can go. In ten years it will be essentially worthless.

</snip>


Don't know if a Tesla is the answer, but I agree that EVs will be preferable within 5 years. My plan is to hold on to my 14-yr old Nissan until I identify a suitable EV model, then buy it off lease and let someone with poor arithmetic skills pay the first 2 years of depreciation.

intercst
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People are talking about vehicle purchases as though we aren't in the midst of a serious sea change. The automotive fleet is switching over to EVs, and cars are becoming self-driving. These changes render almost any car you can buy today pretty much worthless in ten years or less.

So the car you can buy today that you are going to reasonably keep until it dies of old age is a Tesla or nothing. Five years from now anything other than an EV will be highly undesirable -- it will be expensive to maintain, hard to fuel, and restricted as to where it can go. In ten years it will be essentially worthless.


If I buy an ICE engine today, in 10 years it will not be worthless to me because I still expect I can find gasoline for sale to power it and a mechanic to repair it. Are you suggesting every single gas station will close by then?

The EV market is changing rapidly. In 10 years, a 10 year old Tesla will not only be competing with new Teslas, they will be competing with EVs from other manufacturers. Just limiting it to Tesla, a new one may have battery technology that will allow it to go 500 miles or maybe even more between charges. The old one with a 300 mile per charge limit will look dated. Also the styling will change over time.

So, yeah, go ahead and buy that new Tesla. It's the only sane and safe choice. Plus you can now get one for under $40,000 before incentives.

First, I find your whole post self-serving due to your large Tesla investment. Second, Tesla doesn't make what I consider to be a real SUV. And the one they like to call an SUV is $84,500.

PSU
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These changes render almost any car you can buy today pretty much worthless in ten years or less.

Sorry, but I think you're grossly optimistic there. Yes, those sea change things you mention are happening. And they will affect the future of cars. But a complete swap of the entire US fleet of vehicles is not going to happen that quickly.

The current average age of light vehicles in the US (well, most recent I could find - as of 2016) is 11.6 years. That average has been growing steadily since the mid 1990s.
https://www.bts.gov/content/average-age-automobiles-and-truc...
(Take it up with the BTS as to exactly what their average is. Hopefully, it's the median age.)

For current IC vehicles to become basically worthless would require the average age of the fleet to plummet. If every car sold starting tomorrow were to be an EV AND everyone currently owning a car were to buy a replacement EV in the next decade, the fleet average age would drop to around 5 or so. That's just crazy talk.

I'm all in favor of EVs, and I really like Teslas. They're good cars (with a bit of an issue getting them serviced and repaired). But I think you're way over the top here.

Norway is a leading indicator as its EV sales top 50% of new vehicles and diesel sales are falling off a cliff

Norway is an unusually rich country. And they're relatively small compared to the US. Things like vehicle choice can change much faster there than in the US. Again, your observations are not wrong, and I don't completely disagree with your conclusions. I just think your time line is way too fast.

It might be possible to get EV sales in the US up to 30% - 50% of vehicles sold in a decade. But that would take significant political pressure - a level of pressure that I doubt either party could achieve. And one that one party is actively resisting.

Until that changes, the pace of EV adoption in the US will grow gradually, not exponentially.

--Peter
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Maybe your logic is why everybody is building recharging station everywhere and
hotels and motels next door to them for people to stay in while the cars charge?


You've got it backwards. People are replacing gas pumps with charging stations (https://www.newsweek.com/norwegian-gas-station-becomes-first...). And they're building chargers at hotels and motels to attract customers who want to charge overnight. This is a list of Tesla destination chargers in the US, whose locations often include chargers for other EVs (https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/chargers/United+States). Note that the typical locations are places to stay for the night.

-IGU-
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My plan is to hold on to my 14-yr old Nissan until I identify a suitable EV model, then buy it off lease and let someone with poor arithmetic skills pay the first 2 years of depreciation.

The error in that plan is that you spend far too long driving your old Nissan. It turns out that driving an EV is much more pleasant, so the only real error you can make is delaying buying one. New or used doesn't matter much. But if you don't get a car that takes software updates, it won't keep getting better as it ages. Currently, that's pretty much just Tesla.

It also turns out that a Tesla is the safest car on the road. So there's always the exceptional case that you get killed or injured while driving your existing car, where you would have walked away just fine from a crash in a Tesla. Or not crashed at all, since the autopilot in Teslas is already doing a fair amount of crash avoidance. It's hard to put a value on that.

-IGU-
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People are replacing gas pumps with charging stations (https://www.newsweek.com/norwegian-gas-station-becomes-first...). And they're building chargers at hotels and motels to attract customers who want to charge overnight.

**********************************************
I'm in BFE middle America, aka Flyover country. Soy & corn land. I have yet to see a Tesla in person. I have seen a charging station once while on vacation. Your list from Tesla suggests just a few within an hour's drive of me. IC is not going away anytime soon.

Kristi
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It turns out that driving an EV is much more pleasant,

Maybe for some. Maybe not for others.

I have yet to find an EV that delivers the throaty baritone rumble of a nice V8 engine, or the cheery burble of a small displacement 4 cylinder. Those are pleasant part of my driving experience.

--Peter
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If I buy an ICE engine today, in 10 years it will not be worthless to me because I still expect I can find gasoline for sale to power it and a mechanic to repair it. Are you suggesting every single gas station will close by then?

I am suggesting that in 10 years it will be worthless to you because it will cost more each year than it's worth. You'll have to pay to have somebody haul it away (people in Norway are already seeing that with diesels -- it's export or nothing). Enough gas stations will close that it will be a pain to fuel. This is because nobody will be able to make a profit selling gas.

The EV market is changing rapidly. In 10 years, a 10 year old Tesla will not only be competing with new Teslas...

True. But the cars will still be useful. Also, with software updates the car stays fresh in a way that is hard for people to understand who own cars that just get older rather than better.

First, I find your whole post self-serving due to your large Tesla investment.

I don't have a large Tesla investment any more, so you can be relieved on that score. It's a small part of my portfolio. You'll find that I'm just as enthusiastic a proponent of Apple products, yet my investment in AAPL is even tinier.

I'm an enthusiastic user of the products of both companies. I'm not going to apologize for that. You really want every post here to be filled with disclaimers?

-IGU-
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Sorry, but I think you're grossly optimistic there.

Granted, I do tend toward optimism.

For current IC vehicles to become basically worthless would require the average age of the fleet to plummet. If every car sold starting tomorrow were to be an EV AND everyone currently owning a car were to buy a replacement EV in the next decade, the fleet average age would drop to around 5 or so. That's just crazy talk.

I don't think you are considering the great variety of paths to worthlessness. Things change gradually, and then all at once.

We shall see.

-IGU-
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There are hurdles for EVs to overcome and I am not in camp of the converted because:

Until battery technology and energy generation become far more efficient, the cost to drive a gas powered car is simply much cheaper than the EV. And, one of these days (I hope) someone will expand on the WSJ article last week that showed the carbon footprint of EVs is break-even at best (and negative in China which produces alot of electricity from coal). People are myopic - they do not see the complete carbon footprint of an EV from manufacturing the battery, car, electricity, transmission lines, and charging stations. It is pretty high.

Does anymore know how long a Tesla battery will last and the replacement cost? I was going to buy an battery powered lawn mower until I found out that I would have to replace the battery every 5 years at a cost of $250. The mower cost $350. My dad had a mower for 40 years. Do the math. Tesla says their batteries will last 500,000 miles and cost only $7,000 to replace. Really???

Now, I love the quietness and the acceleration of EVs. Just not ready to jump on board during the shake-out cycle. :)
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IFU:"People are talking about vehicle purchases as though we aren't in the midst of a serious sea change. The automotive fleet is switching over to EVs, and cars are becoming self-driving. These changes render almost any car you can buy today pretty much worthless in ten years or less."

well, in 15 years, most cars are 'worthless' anyway! What cost $30,000 today will be a $1500 car in 15 years and if you count inflation, it will seem like about $300 in purchasing power. So?

I'm not convinced the US driver is going to rush out and buy EVs. In fact, I'd bet MOST people aren't going to be interested in EVs.

EVs will ONLY penetrate when there are charging stations at every 7-11 and 'gas station' in the country that can recharge your car in under 15 minutes. Half or more of the people don't live where they have a garage or carport....... and many who live in 'homes' are leasing them, or don't have a driveway (park on street). So until there is public charging everywhere, EVs are a limited market.

- - ---

IGU:"So the car you can buy today that you are going to reasonably keep until it dies of old age is a Tesla or nothing. Five years from now anything other than an EV will be highly undesirable -- it will be expensive to maintain, hard to fuel, and restricted as to where it can go. In ten years it will be essentially worthless."

Oh, horrors...you can STILL buy Model T and Model A parts new! And folks will make parts for the 100 MILLION cars that will be on the road in five years. Those same cars will be on the road in 10 years. And cars bought today will be on the road in 15 years. Gas stations aren't going away any time soon.

- - - - --

IGU:"At the same time, vehicles that can't drive themselves will become progressively more worthless. And older drivers who are losing the ability to safely drive a car will greatly desire anything autonomous."

So far, very few places, if any at the moment, allow 'self driving cars'. I'm still waiting for the first lawsuit from the person mowed down by a Telsa driver. Already been one mowed down by a Google car, right?

- - -- --


IGU:"This process is already showing itself in at least two ways. First, Teslas are destroying the luxury car resale market (https://insideevs.com/news/375289/tesla-effect-used-car-valu...

Heck, with $10,000 plus rebates for Teslas in CA, what do you expect? And who gives a dang about 'luxury' resale market? In five years, 10 year old Teslas will be antiques - maybe where parts are not available any longer due to newer models being out. There's not enough Teslas out there for after market folks to jump in and make parts.

- - -- --

IGU:" Second, Norway is a leading indicator as its EV sales top 50% of new vehicles and diesel sales are falling off a cliff (https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-drives-norway-diesel-freefal...

No, Norway is a very special case of high subsidies, $12/gal diesel prices to discourage use, 'free' tollroads and bridges costing them tens of millions of dollars of lost revenues.....one island connected with a $10 per direction toll bridge has seen 99% of the residents buy EVs to avoid the daily tolls. The bonds to build that bridge are now in default.

There are as many people in the Dallas Ft Metroplex as there are in the ENTIRE country of Norway - five million people! Norway has 1/70th of the population of the US.
- - - ------

IGU:" As people fear for the future of resale value, due to government incentives or laws or costs associated with fuel and maintenance and insurance, they stop buying new internal combustion engine cars."

Some. Others will realize there's next to no charging stations in the entire states of MT, ID, ND, SD, KS, NE, IA, TX, NM, AZ, within 50 miles of them.

- - - - -

IGU:"So, yeah, go ahead and buy that new Tesla. It's the only sane and safe choice. Plus you can now get one for under $40,000 before incentives."

Yeah, I'm sure it will haul your boat or travel trailer, 5th wheel camper, and allow the 8 kids to ride comfy in the carpool to school or activities.

t.
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I have yet to find an EV that delivers the throaty baritone rumble of a nice V8 engine, or the cheery burble of a small displacement 4 cylinder. Those are pleasant part of my driving experience.

Maybe. It's funny reading the stories from Tesla drivers who say that they once thought that. Then after driving a Tesla for a while they realize that what they liked was how the car drove and they had just become used to associating the sound with that. Then, since the Tesla drives so much better, and without any engine noise, they quickly lost any desire for an engine sound.

Me, I can't say since I never found noise pleasurable. Silence is great!

-IGU-
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Howie:"Maybe your logic is why everybody is building recharging station everywhere and
hotels and motels next door to them for people to stay in while the cars charge?"

One charge position, usually......and you got to go out at midnight to disconnect so the next person, also there at midnight, can use the charger. The 3am shift is even rougher.


t.
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IGU writes,


<<My plan is to hold on to my 14-yr old Nissan until I identify a suitable EV model, then buy it off lease and let someone with poor arithmetic skills pay the first 2 years of depreciation.>>

The error in that plan is that you spend far too long driving your old Nissan.

</snip>


Not really. I live in an urban area and typically walk to destinations within 3 miles of my home for exercise. It's not uncommon for me to go a couple of weeks without taking the automobile out of the garage. For longer trips, I generally rent an aircraft.

Last 5 years, I've been averaging less than 1,500 miles a year. Real question is do I really need a car? But since I'm paying less than $1,000/year in gas, oil, and registration fees (the Nissan has been maintenance-free in terms of repairs) to have it sit in the garage, I'm willing to keep it for convenience.

intercst
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"Don't know if a Tesla is the answer, but I agree that EVs will be preferable within 5 years. "

Oh, really? I can just see all the folks in New York City (10 million) and Chicago and Baltimore and downtown Dallas - who park on the street or in 5 story high garages - are suddenly going to have mass charging available.

If you've ever been to the city, first finding a gas station is tough..folks often LEAVE the city to get gas.....and even then, you've got 5 minutes to get gas before the next guy is leaning on his horn. In NJ, you can't even put in your own gas - in and out quick.....

I can just see an apartment building in NYC with 300 extension cords hanging out windows connecting to cars on the street...... oh wait..you can't even open windows in the new buildings!

Maybe 30% - 40% , maybe even 50% of the cars sold in California will go EV....in five years.....elsewhere? tough sell other than Portland, Seattle, etc.

Heck, you could buy a Leaf or Bolt here, or Volt and there are barely any here. Only seen a very few Teslas around here...... there are Prius cars all over here......usually see a couple on every trip.

With gas as $2.07 a gallon in TX, 'saving money' on fuel is not going to be a convincing argument around here. Not when they need a $1500 or $2000 home quick charger right off the bat.


t.
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I'm in BFE middle America, aka Flyover country. Soy & corn land. I have yet to see a Tesla in person. I have seen a charging station once while on vacation. Your list from Tesla suggests just a few within an hour's drive of me. IC is not going away anytime soon.

Given that almost all your charging will take place at home, this isn't really a concern. In seven years of owning Teslas, I have used a destination charger maybe five times, and a couple of those were just for the experience. I charge entirely at home for local travel. When on trips I use Tesla superchargers.

I don't know exactly where you are, but even in the furthest reaches of flyover country there are superchargers available pretty much everywhere you might want to travel. See supercharge.info for a crowd-sourced world map of existing and under construction superchargers. Also the ones in the permitting process (the blue dots). The official Tesla map is at https://www.tesla.com/findus, which can locate both superchargers and destination chargers.

Yes, internal combustion engines are dead. This just isn't yet apparent in most places. All that farm machinery is going electric as well.

-IGU-
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IGU:" And they're building chargers at hotels and motels to attract customers who want to charge overnight. This is a list of Tesla destination chargers in the US, whose locations often include chargers for other EVs (https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/chargers/United+States). Note that the typical locations are places to stay for the night."

Yeah...simple...you can only drive 200 miles to your destination, then you have to stay there for hours and hours to recharge your Telsa.....and wait in line likely with other Tesla drivers stopped at the same place after running out of juice. Meanwhile, the guys in regular IC cars stopped along the interstate, bought some gas, and finished their trip of 400 miles arriving at their destination with no need to 'find a charger' and stay at a higher price motel.

Oh, and reminder....diesel prices in Norway hit $12/gal. That and free tollroads and bridges for EVs made the choice simple. People saved $20/day in tolls. People saved $12 or more in gas a day.


t.
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IGU:" But if you don't get a car that takes software updates, it won't keep getting better as it ages. Currently, that's pretty much just Tesla."

so what you're telling us is a Tesla is like a prototype car where they are still fixing bugs in customer owned vehicles and it's necessary to update things to keep the car from self destructing? hmmmm...

By the way, most manufacturers update their software...fixes......recalls.....when a serious bug is found. Soon, all will over the air via the cellular systems installed in just about every new car........nothing new here......

CHevy tried to sell me a $150 'performance update' to the engine control computer for $150. Said no...car still gets nice 33 mpg on the road so you won't fleece me for that on my 3.5 year old Malibu. If it were a real problem, they'd do it for free. They said the car would 'run better'. Duh, it runs perfectly fine now.

t.
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"It turns out that driving an EV is much more pleasant,"


I'd be forever freaking out on a trip worried about IF I can find a charger in time, and IF there is no one there already sucking up juice or worse, a line of five or six waiting for access to the charger!

Pleasant trips? Heck, no!


t.
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"Also, with software updates the car stays fresh in a way that is hard for people to understand who own cars that just get older rather than better."

software does nothing for power windows and air conditioner parts that fail, that door locks that don't work, with the zillion computers around the car failing, with suspension parts failing, brakes, wheels, battery system, etc.......

the seats don't get better with software, nor do the carpets. The dings in the windshield don't vanish either and the dents in the side don't magically go away with software updates.


t.
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IGU:"I'm sure most people know this already, but pretty much everything that telegraph posts is factually incorrect. It isn't even worth bothering with corrections. Just assume everything is wrong."

Prove me wrong on this thread or apologize!

Population Norway - 5.3 million people. Less than half of NYC metro area. About equal to Dallas FT Metroplex. Heck, there's a million people in my county alone and I'm not in the city. Well, 969,603 as of 2017.......

There are more people, "The Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex's population is 7,539,711 according to the U.S. Census Bureau's 2018 population estimates," https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas–Fort_Worth_metroplex




More than the entire country of Norway!.....

Prove me wrong, IGU!



t.
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IGU -

The ICE is unlikely to disappear in North/South America, Asian, or Australia anytime soon, if for no other reason than the market forces that others have already laid out. Rendering valueless the current 260 million cars on the road in the US in 10 years is highly unlikely. I am sure there are markets where EVs have already influenced resale value, and may be the vehicle of choice in 10 years.

But while it might be a "nice to have", much like the entire lineup of Porsche and Audi have little impact on the value of my RAV4, its unlikely that EVs will impact it much either. We just aren't in the same market segment, and where we are, the RAV4 isn't going to be dramatically influenced by EVs over it's useful life. And it has many of the same features you tout in EVs - emergency autobrake, lane departure warning, cross traffic warning, and others. And lots of ICE cars have those safety features, and more are being added every year.

The biggest rub on EVs, until #1, a single fast charging standard established in the market, and #2, the available charging capacity on the road is roughly equivalent to to the gasoline refueling capacity, in terms of miles per minute per vehicle, is that the energy density of batteries is no where near as great as hydrocarbons. And when push comes to shove, energy density and transferability win. Inherently, as you increase the energy density of batteries, the more bomb like they become. Oh, and then you end up in situations like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/09/califor...

That said, I would not invest or build a gas station that did not have some electrical charging capability at this time. There may not be a single standard yet, but simply having sufficient high voltage infrastructure to support charging in the future will be an important business decision. I also would not build a new house or do a major wiring update on a house, without adding a dedicated 50 amp 3 phase circuit in the garage. Those things will obviously become more important with time.

If you grew the EV market in the US at about 25% per year for the next 10 years, you would have sales of about 4.6 million EVs sold in 2029. That's about 27% of the current car market. I'd place that in the realm of plausible. That would have roughly 25 million EVs on the road in the US by 2029, or roughly 10% of the vehicle fleet (assuming none were retired due to accidents, age, or mechanical/electronic failure).

I just don't see it.
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I will purchase an EV as soon as one can meet my transportation requirements at a cost that is approximately equivalent or cheaper than the vehicles I require today. That's not even close yet. But for people whose transportation needs can be met by EVs, I endorse your choice.

The reasons your timeline is so far off is because you are not considering how many people have transportation requirements that EVs do not address at all, and because you fail to realize how many people drive old clunkers not as a transportation choice, but because they can't afford a better car - especially not an EV.
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Maybe your logic is why everybody is building recharging station everywhere and
hotels and motels next door to them for people to stay in while the cars charge?


No.
...hotels and motels next door to them for people to stay in while waiting for the people who got there sooner cars to charge up.

Tesla aficionados talk about the one hour charge time. But they assume that the charger is vacant and they can just drive up and plug in. They never consider that there may already be somebody else plugged in and one or two others waiting ahead of them.
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"That said, I would not invest or build a gas station that did not have some electrical charging capability at this time. There may not be a single standard yet, but simply having sufficient high voltage infrastructure to support charging in the future will be an important business decision. I also would not build a new house or do a major wiring update on a house, without adding a dedicated 50 amp 3 phase circuit in the garage. Those things will obviously become more important with time."

well, we're talking some serious, serious power here for charging stations. If you have, say, 15 charge positions, like the 15 pumps at the local Kroger store down the block here.....you're looking at 440V service and 200 amps or so. Not many gas stations have access to that kind of power, and you're looking at a small 'substation' being built on the gas station property with big cables run underground in conduits.

Another mile up the block is the Walmart market and gas station with another 15 pumps and half mile south is the Shell station with about 15 pumps.

- --

Probably most homes only need a 220v circuit for fast charge - a couple hours.....but my breaker box is already full.....so it would be thousands to change things around for a 'fast charger'. Got 350 amp entry but out of circuit breaker spots. They use them all up when they build the houses it seems.

- - - - - --

Each generation of battery can be charged at different rates.......and so far, they are really slow compared to a gas pump that let's you put in $10 worth in 2-3 minutes and a fill up in 5 or 6 minutes, max. There are a lot of people that just put in 10 bucks worth of gas at a time.
or as you noted, it's minutes per mile of range at fill up......

In my around town car, I buy 8-10 gallons of gas a month to do 350-450 miles. Gas is $2/gal here.


t.
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This thread seems like an odd subject for a board supposedly about retirement. For me, at least, a car is a minor part of retirement. If having the car of your choice is an important part of retirement planning, maybe you need to re-think something. We are like Nessie, in the position of buying a new car when we need/want without needing to consider the effect on retirement.

If and when an EV becomes the car of choice, we will consider it at that time.

In other words, if the choice of a car affects your retirement planning, you may be spending too much on cars.

CNC
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CNC:"In other words, if the choice of a car affects your retirement planning, you may be spending too much on cars"

As long as it fits in your budget, no sweat

Some folks eat out $100/week or more. Maybe $300-400 for a couple...and nice dinners and wine and......

Some folks live in large houses....constantly update and redecorate....buy new furniture.


Some folks spend thousands and thousands on clothing annually. My clothing budget is about $50 or 60 a year.....buying $25 shoes or $20 jeans or shorts.....

Some play golf every week for at least $50/tee time.

Or belong to $5000 or $10,000 a year country clubs.......

or buy/rent/fly airplanes at $100/hour.....

Your choice of hobbies and activities will certainly affect your retirement planning.

or own boats, jet skis, winter skis....

or take $10,000 'vacations' and cruises...maybe several times a year

or have that summer home or winter ski condo.....


t.
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It might be possible to get EV sales in the US up to 30% - 50% of vehicles sold in a decade. But that would take significant political pressure - a level of pressure that I doubt either party could achieve.

And electricity. Don't forget the massive increase in electricity supply to support a fleet of 30%-50% EVs. California just this week experienced a big problem with electricity supply. California has something like 5% of cars being EVs. What's going to happen when that goes up by 6 or 10 times? Where is the electricity going to come from? Can the grid handle that increased load?
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California has something like 5% of cars being EVs. What's going to happen when that goes up by 6 or 10 times? Where is the electricity going to come from? Can the grid handle that increased load?

</snip>


I'm pretty sure most EVs are recharged at home, overnight when electrical demand is low.

intercst
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Don't know if a Tesla is the answer, but I agree that EVs will be preferable within 5 years. My plan is to hold on to my 14-yr old Nissan until I identify a suitable EV model, then buy it off lease and let someone with poor arithmetic skills pay the first 2 years of depreciation.

That's what I did. Most of our trips are short, mostly my wife commuting to work. So I bought a Nissan as it came off lease for about $8,000. Great car, and the cheapest transportation I've ever owned or probably ever will own.

Sadly, the overseas market for used Leafs is hot, so you can't get them that cheap anymore. But they are still pretty cheap.
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Then after driving a Tesla for a while they realize that what they liked was how the car drove and they had just become used to associating the sound with that. Then, since the Tesla drives so much better, and without any engine noise,

Out here in the real world, people don't much care about engine sound, as long as it's not noisy. The majority of the noise in a car comes from the tires and the wind noise. And those are the same no matter if it's an EV or an ICE.

People Just. Don't. Care. People don't care what is under the hood. Most people can't even tell you what's under their hood. 4 cylinders or 6, direct fuel injection or throttle body injection or 2 barrel carburetor. One coil & distributor vs. one coil per cylinder vs. one coil for 2 cylinders.
What they care about is that it accelerates when they step on the go pedal.

And a car is a car, they all drive pretty much the same. Go to an Avis rental desk and you can hop into any car on the lot and be able to drive it. Normal people don't care about the difference between an EV and an ICE in the way it drives. Assuming they could even detect the difference. I would say that the difference between a Tesla and a Honda is no different than the difference between a Honda and a Toyota.
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intrecst:"I'm pretty sure most EVs are recharged at home, overnight when electrical demand is low."

Only for those people who have garages and carports or even driveways. And own the house. The landlord isn't likely to fork out thousands for a home charging station/hookup. You won't put one in since you can't recoup it once the lease is up.


Those that live in multi-story apartment buildings or park on the street are going to be looking for the 'corner charger station' and using it during peak hours. Not at 12 midnight. How often you fill up your take at midnight or 2am?

If you expect 50% penetration, at least half of those cars will need charging during the day.


t.
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I also would not build a new house or do a major wiring update on a house, without adding a dedicated 50 amp 3 phase circuit in the garage. Those things will obviously become more important with time.

50amp/240V yes. 3-phase no. Not only is 3-phase basically impossible to get in a residential setting, but home chargers aren't designed for it.

But the 50/240 is also handy for my RV. ;)
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First, I find your whole post self-serving due to your large Tesla investment. Second, Tesla doesn't make what I consider to be a real SUV. And the one they like to call an SUV is $84,500.

FWIW. I own a new '19 Tesla M3. YOLO. And I agree with everything in your post PSU.
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Only for those people who have garages and carports or even driveways. And own the house. The landlord isn't likely to fork out thousands for a home charging station/hookup. You won't put one in since you can't recoup it once the lease is up.

This is a non-issue. Apartment buildings provide gyms, swimming pools, playgrounds, dog parks, bike storage, wine refrigerators, and common party areas as amenities. If some large percentage of people wanted EV chargers, management would provide them.
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And a car is a car, they all drive pretty much the same.

Spoken like a man who has never driven a Tesla. I have had hundreds of people drive my Teslas, and for many it was the first time they'd driven an EV. Nobody thinks they "drive pretty much the same". They mostly leave with big grins on their faces.

Driving a Tesla is dangerous in the sense that it will make you dissatisfied with whatever you are driving now. This is a common experience. People who get Teslas and have another car find that they never drive the other car because driving the Tesla is so much more enjoyable.

This is why the Tesla Model 3 was the #6 best selling passenger car in the US last quarter (see http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/us-passenger-car-sales-figures-...), despite having a much higher average selling price than the other models.

-IGU-
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Until battery technology and energy generation become far more efficient, the cost to drive a gas powered car is simply much cheaper than the EV.

It's already there for total cost of ownership. Depending on how much you drive the break-even is less than five years. There are various analyses out there.

the carbon footprint of EVs is break-even at best

No, the carbon footprint from the manufacture of an EV is offset by about the first 10,000 miles of driving. After that, even when electricity is mostly from coal (which it isn't anywhere in the US any more, and is rapidly declining everywhere), an EV is a win over any ICE. Again, there are various analyses out there.

Does anymore know how long a Tesla battery will last and the replacement cost?

Tesla batteries have sometimes malfunctioned and been replaced under warranty, but to my knowledge none have worn out. Tesla says they will start shipping a million mile battery next year. I'm fairly sure that by the time my batteries need replacement (if ever), I'll be the one asking for an opportunity to buy a new one that has greater capacity and charges faster and weighs less.

-IGU-
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Others will realize there's next to no charging stations in the entire states of MT, ID, ND, SD, KS, NE, IA, TX, NM, AZ, within 50 miles of them.

Just for some local input on this, we live in Idaho outside a smallish (pop. 1600) town. There are about 11K people in our county. Googling on "tesla charging stations," we have three Tesla charging stations in Idaho within 50 miles of our house, including the one that is about 8 miles away (a mile closer than the gas station). If I count the charging stations on the other side of the hill (Wyoming), that's seven more.

Montana has a surprising number of charging stations once you get west of Billings. Most are roughly along I-90 (I saw my first ever in Superior (pop. 8xx) about 5 years ago), but you can find them in West Yellowstone, the stretch from Kalispell up to West Glacier, and even Lima (pop. 2xx)

We would like to buy a Tesla, but we aren't currently in the market for a new car, and an all-electric car wouldn't yet work for the way we drive (700-900 miles per day on road trips). By the time we are ready for another car, an EV might very well work.

Kathleen
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So the car you can buy today that you are going to reasonably keep until it dies of old age is a Tesla or nothing. Five years from now anything other than an EV will be highly undesirable -- it will be expensive to maintain, hard to fuel, and restricted as to where it can go. In ten years it will be essentially worthless.


I've had a Tesla M3 for over a year and am highly in favor of EVs where they make sense.

But I don't think that you are being realistic on how fast it is possible for EV sales to replace ICE car sales. You are suggesting, roughly, that EV sales will have to be double the rate of current car sales in order that all ICE cars get replaced in about 10 years.
This means that not only will all current car assembly plants get replaced or converted to EV production but that for each of these factories another new EV factory will have to be built.
Numerous Tesla-gigafactory sized battery factories would be in addition to this.

This is just silly talk. Even if it were possible, the car makers won't intentionally over build an unsustainable production capacity.

Mike
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People buy all sorts of things, that doesn’t mean they are superior than others, it just makes the owner feel superior. :)
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" Apartment buildings provide gyms, swimming pools, playgrounds, dog parks, bike storage, wine refrigerators, and common party areas as amenities. If some large percentage of people wanted EV chargers, management would provide them. "

I guess it could be a new profit center. Apartments aren't going to PAY for the electricity to run all the vehicles parked in their garages.

Most apartments around here, which go for well over $1000 a month, have carports and assigned spaces (Maybe 1/3rd) , or open parking (half)in large lots with one assigned and a hundred 'open' spots for 2nd cars and visitors. You're looking at many tens or maybe hundreds of thousands to tear up and install power to each spot, install metering.......repair damage when someone backs into it....or has an accident.....might be real hassle up north with snow plowing.....

We had a few 'free chargers' around town - at the libraries and gym. That lasted for 2 years ....now you pay to get a charge.......and it's not a fast charger.....and it limits how much you can get......2 hours worth or so.


t.
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"we have three Tesla charging stations in Idaho within 50 miles of our house,"


Great....if folks have to drive 100 miles round trip to charge up their car than gets 250 miles a charge. Some saving!......you'd spend your life driving back and forth to charge stations.

and if you have a Leaf that only gets 100 miles on a charge?

t.
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cross post...

wow...7% of all vehicles will be EVs by 2030!

https://boards.fool.com/suvs-34320494.aspx?result=RecSuccess...


t.
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I am suggesting that in 10 years it will be worthless to you because it will cost more each year than it's worth.

You may suggest that all you want but I have personal experience with vehicles over 10 years of age.

PSU
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IGU:"I am suggesting that in 10 years it will be worthless to you because it will cost more each year than it's worth."

According to the link in the previous post, 7% of all vehicles on the road in 2030 will be EVs.


That means 93% will STILL be IC engine cars. If you are a replacement parts maker or service dealer, you'd be nuts to focus on the 7% and ignore the 93%.

Apartment owners would be crazy to spend BILLIONS focusing on 7% of the renters.

Service stations? 93% of all vehicles will still need gas. Who is going to rush out and spend BILLIONS to serve 7% of the market in 2030?

Now, CA is a special case since their government will likely continue to subsidize EVs , punish IC engine cars through punitive taxes,or maybe even ban them from cities. The rest of the country! 93% IC engine SUVs!

Now, one question IGU never brings up - will Tesla even be around in 2030? So far , they exist solely on government subsidies from taxpayers and soon will face a hundred models of EVs from 20 different manufacturers. Or will they be another Turner or Delorean or Nash-Rambler? or Oldsmobile? Or Edsel?


All of the first computer companies had their glory days and vanished. KayPro.....Gateway.....
Radio Shack...Commodore....Sinclair.....NorthStar....DEC....Digital....made real money too! Profits! Gone!


t.
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It's already there for total cost of ownership. Depending on how much you drive the break-even is less than five years. There are various analyses out there.

Again, you have not shown that for a $40K SUV versus an $84.5k Model X. I'm guessing that if you try, you'll use $5/gal CA gas prices.

PSU
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PSU to IGU:"Again, you have not shown that for a $40K SUV versus an $84.5k Model X. I'm guessing that if you try, you'll use $5/gal CA gas prices."

If you live in VA, there is an 'tangible asset tax' each year on cars, airplanes and boats.

If you live in VA, you'll pay an additional $2000 a year TAX on that Tesla......already going to pay about $4000 each year in personal property tax if you live in Fairfax. It declines as your car depreciates....but you'll still be dinged THOUSANDS for a decade on that Tesla SUV.

So figure that into your cost to own that $40,000 extra cost Tesla EV SUV instead of a gas one.

-------

Each county or city sets its own rate for personal property taxes. For example, in Fairfax County, the current rate is $4.57 per $100 of assessed value, while in Prince William County, the car tax rate is $3.70 per $100. There can also be additional local registration fees that add to the more than $3 billion in tangible personal property taxes collected by Virginia localities in fiscal year 2016, the latest year with statewide data available through the Department of Taxation.

https://wtop.com/virginia/2017/10/virginia-car-tax/

Lots of folks keep cars running for two decades to escape the tax bite....well,minimize it. WHen I lived in Arlington VA, my neighbor bought a new Corvette....got to pay $2500 a year in tax on it! I had a little Nissan Sentra and paid a few hundred.....

Worse, now with cap on taxes you can deduct, it's really going to bite! They already pay gigantic real estate taxes and have state income taxes!


t.
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I don't think you are considering the great variety of paths to worthlessness. Things change gradually, and then all at once.

That is right, including 10 year old Teslas. You conveniently didn't address this part of my previous post. What will the worth of a 10 year old Tesla be compared to a brand new Tesla and other new EVs from other manufacturers?

Also you like to point out that the Tesla stays up to date with software updates. Since you are an Apple fan too, you should know a 6 year old iPhone 5C cannot be upgraded to iOS 13. It is limited to iOS 10. People have 10 year old printers that can't be used on Windows 10. There are 10 year old computers that can't use Windows 10. Software obsolescence happens. There is no guarantee that software on a Tesla car will be infinitely upgradeable.

Then there is the wear and tear of driving that tele mentioned. There are no software updates for physical item such as paint, interior finishes, suspension, power windows, and so on.

Technology is changing rapidly. EVs are changing rapidly. A 10 year old Tesla may look like a Model T in the future.

PSU
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If you live in VA, there is an 'tangible asset tax' each year on cars, airplanes and boats.

There is a property tax here in NC too. In my county, they like to use inflated valuations to apply the tax. I think last year, my 2008 Toyota Highlander with about 200k miles at the time it was taxed was valued around $10k. I would sell it to the county if they'd give my $10k. Therefore, you would about twice the property tax annually on a Tesla Model X over other mid-size SUVs like the Toyota Highlander, Honda Pilot and Ford Explorer. In all the evaluations for life-time costs, I don't recall one of them including property tax.

PSU
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No. of Recommendations: 4
I would say that the difference between a Tesla and a Honda is no different than the difference between a Honda and a Toyota.

Then you've never driven a Tesla.
Tim
Who used to have a Honda and a Toyota...
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and if you have a Leaf that only gets 100 miles on a charge

Perhaps you could charge it at the charging station that is closer than the closest gas station mentioned (but ignored by you) by the OP...

By your logic, are gas cars now completely infeasible since the closest gas station is further than the closest electric charging station?

Tim
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"Then you've never driven a Tesla."

Does a Tesla make traffic jams and commutes go faster?

Does a Tesla get from point A to point B any faster?

Does a Tesla go any better in snow than, say, a typical Subaru with standard 4 wheel drive?

Does a Tesla haul a boat or travel trailer?

It's a car. A utility function. It's good for 'virtue signalling' for those interested in such. So is riding a bike - even better as it uses no fossil fuel at all for electricity.....and creates less congestion on the highways


t.
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"By your logic, are gas cars now completely infeasible since the closest gas station is further than the closest electric charging station?"

Most people living in rural MT are not going to have EV chargers popping up all over since most won't buy an EV to start with


Second, a typical IC car can go 400-600 miles on a tank of gas. Not 100 like a Leaf....and a 10 year old Leaf might only go 60-70 miles on a charge as the batteries degrade.

It can be hard enough to just find a gas station in many parts of MT......you can easily go 100 miles without seeing a gas pump.

west TX is not much better - I've gone 150 miles and not seen a single gas pump through rural TX.


t
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No. of Recommendations: 6
The OP, bless his pumping heart, admitted to the METAR board some time ago that he was 100% invested in TSLA shares.

He's the ex-bully of the TSLA board whose incessant linking to TSLA remunerated pump sheets (Electrek, Teslarati, insideevs, etc.) carries the Gospel of the subsidy truffle hound, Enron Musk, who is running what I think to be the biggest fraud ever perpetrated by an S&P 500 company.

Anyone buying a Tesla today needs to have their head examined. The class-action lawsuits against Tesla and the individual lawsuits against the psychopath Musk are beginning to take their toll.

If you want to see how bad #TeslaBrandDestruction is going across the planet, go to Twitter, punch in the following:


#TeslaBrandDestruction
#TeslaPaintIssues
#TeslaAutoPilotIssues
#TeslaCustomerServiceIssues
#TeslaDeliveryIssues
#TeslaRefundIssues
#TelsaGlassIssues
#TeslaScreenIssues


etc.


Tesla's Model 3 is the worst made car in America. They still make these damned things in a tent. Sales of it, yoy, in the USA are falling off a cliff.

And yet the cult members on the TSLA board here at Fool cherry pick the good news without explaining things to novices such as Model 3 sales are up worldwide, but, that's after adding in new markets such as the UK, Australia, Japan, etc.

What they are not telling you is how Model 3 sales are collapsing everywhere yoy where subsidies have been removed or are contracting.

Just go to Twitter. Read the horror stories by ex-Tesla owners and current owners who cannot return their lemons.
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Apartment owners would be crazy to spend BILLIONS focusing on 7% of the renters.

You are making it too hard. Take a typical garden style apartment complex, say 250 units. The ongoing monthly operation costs are huge. There is a full time onsite staff of 3-5 people, that costs a lot. Each month a certain percentage of units need appliances like water heaters and washer and dryers replaces. A certain percentage of units need to be made ready on turn over. On and on. On top of that you have capex like new roofs, stripe and seal coat in the parking lot, exterior paint, and so on. It adds up to a lot of money per year, to the point where dropping a few extra thousand on a car charger is almost literally a rounding error. Remember, we're assuming we only need to get to 7% of spaces over the next ten years.

Apartment complexes typically have about 95-97% occupancy. In our example, that means there are 7-13 vacant units at any one time. But if the charger increases occupancy, even if only by one additional unit per year, then the charger has paid for itself the very first year.

Last month my local Safeway just installed two free EV chargers. I'm certain they did a similar calculation. They believe they will siphon away enough customers from stores without EV chargers that it is a worthwhile investment. Since it costs basically the same amount to run the store either way, each new additional customer is gravy.
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And yet the cult members on the TSLA board here at Fool cherry pick the good news

On the other hand, you seem to have made it your life's mission to cherry pick the bad news. What's wrong with a little balance and reasonableness?
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Apartment owners would be crazy to spend BILLIONS focusing on 7% of the renters.

7% of the cars being EV's doesn't mean that 7% of *renters* will own an EV. In most places, people rent an apartment because they can't afford to buy a house. And if you can't afford to buy a house, you aren't going to be buying a Tesla.
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We would like to buy a Tesla, but we aren't currently in the market for a new car, and an all-electric car wouldn't yet work for the way we drive (700-900 miles per day on road trips). By the time we are ready for another car, an EV might very well work.

Kathleen



Kathleen,

You've heard of Consumer Reports?

You know how they rate things, right? Their readers.

Consumer Reports has quit reviewing Model 3 cars because their readers overwhelmingly voted it the most undependable car in America.

If you want an EV, buy and Audi, VW, Porsche, Hyundai etc.

But I would suggest a hybrid instead, something like a Toyota Rav4 gas/ev, a Toyota Camry gas/ev, or even the newer hybrids coming out of Germany.

During the recent blackouts in California, you had no way to recharge your Tesla if you were running from the fires. Tesla warned owners the superchargers were not working.

During the recent hurricane in Florida, Tesla notified owners up and down the coast of Florida that their superchargers were not in service, hence, mandatory evacuations in an EV during major times of stress are not for the lighthearted.

What the OP is not telling you is Elon Musk has promised his cult members that all Teslas will appreciate in value. I kid you not.

(Musk is also telling people that Tesla solar panels are cheaper than ever and are like putting money printers up on your roof, despite the dozens of cases where their panels caught fire on Walmarts, Amazon AWS and homeowners' residences.)

This company is a gigantic fraud, now 16 years old, never turned an annual profit, and the taxpayer subsidies in the USA end this Q4.

What happens if you buy a Tesla, it goes bankrupt, and you can't buy parts for your car?

That's a huge issue: parts AND service.

Go to Twitter.

Punch in:

#WhereAreMyParts
#TeslaServiceIssues
#TeslaSolarIssues

You'll see.

People complain daily to @elonmusk on Twitter, always saying, "It's the best car I've ever driven BUT . . . "

You'll see hundreds of photos of shoddy work on these Model 3s.

You'll view photos of the worst paint jobs on any car on this planet.

You'll read stories of people suing Tesla for their refunds.

You'll shake your head at people being sold used cars as "NEW".

You'll blink at how two customers have the same VINs for their cars.

You'll learn how Tesla is setting up LLCs worldwide to buyback the lemons, keep plates on them, and let those bricks die in unattended parking lots everywhere so that the cancelled sales do not show up on their books.

You'll not believe how some of these Teslans (a preponderance of beta males) simply haven't risen up and torched Elon's 5 mansions (all collateralized for loans Elon used to prop up Space X after he was caught using SpaceX funds for a stupid Boring project)and his private jet which uses thousands of gallons of jet fuel per hour while SubsidyFraudBoy jets from his mansions to the factories because driving a Tesla is for the peons in the cult.

And you'll feel your anger rise as you realize Musk is charging $6,000 for a feature called FSD (basically autonomous driving) and telling his gullible cult that the cars will appreciate and FSD will be going up in price soon (always "SOON") because by 2020 there will be 1,000,000 FSD RoboTaxis by Tesla on the road and your car will go out at night and hook for passengers while you sleep, thus, paying your car payment.

Just go to Twitter. Read the tales of the ex-cult members who are deprogramming from the Tesla Cult now. Their stories are rife with unbelievably bad experiences with their cars and above all, Tesla communications, or lack thereof.

Musk recently said, "The best service, is NO service." He was trying to assure his loyal sheeple that Teslas don't need service.

There's another issue: #TeslaWarrantyIssues

You want horror stories? Check that one out.


For anybody reading this, who has ever even considered buying a Tesla, spend an hour on Twitter immediately and punch in those hashtags.

You're going to read the most unbelievable stories from burned Tesla owners, be it Solar, Battery or Car owners.

This company will be TSLAQ and when we hit there, the OP will owe everyone on Fool an apology who bought the stock or a Tesla on his recommendation.
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Thom, it is one thing for you to do your endless anti-Tesla rants on the Tesla board and another thing to do it here.
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What happens if you buy a Tesla, it goes bankrupt, and you can't buy parts for your car?

Probably the same thing that happened to owners of GM cars when they went bankrupt.
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Then you've never driven a Tesla.

Indeed I have not.
Haven't driven a 700-HP 2020 Ford Mustang GT, either. Believe you me, if I was going to spend $40,000 for a car it would be that Mustang. ;-) https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29462855/2020-ford-mustan...

I just checked on google maps, and the nearest Tesla dealer is 300 miles away. In another state.

There is a ("a" as in "one") Tesla supercharger station nearby. It's 55 miles away. In a fairly new outlet mall. We've never seen anybody plugged into it, though. Not that we go to that mall everyday.
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Thom, it is one thing for you to do your endless anti-Tesla rants on the Tesla board and another thing to do it here.

But, but ... why is this thread here on this board AT ALL???

CNC
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Rayvt writes,

<<Apartment owners would be crazy to spend BILLIONS focusing on 7% of the renters.>>

7% of the cars being EV's doesn't mean that 7% of *renters* will own an EV. In most places, people rent an apartment because they can't afford to buy a house. And if you can't afford to buy a house, you aren't going to be buying a Tesla.


</snip>

Maybe it depends on how high the rent is?

In my neighborhood they're going crazy building new apartment complexes because rents are rising so much. I noticed that one 60 unit property just completed had 5 parking spaces striped for "Electric Vehicles".

intercst
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This thread seems like an odd subject for a board supposedly about retirement. For me, at least, a car is a minor part of retirement. If having the car of your choice is an important part of retirement planning, maybe you need to re-think something.
……………………………………
I disagree. There's more to life in retirement than your investment portfolio. People don't just have different financial needs when they retire; there's differences in lifestyle choices that are affected by something as basic as an electric vs. gasoline (or diesel) car.

We just got back from a 4,400 mile trip from Milwaukee to Los Angeles, going west on what used to be Route 66, (via TX, NM, AZ) and coming back through Las Vegas, Denver, and Omaha, where we had friends we wanted to see. Most days we averaged 500-600 miles/day, with breaks for sightseeing, including a lost of odd historic Route 66 landmarks.

A Tesla would not have made this trip, needing to stop to recharge, and just figuring out where recharging was available. Heck, there's a lot of places out west where the exits are labeled "No Services" for 50-100 miles or so. Not even gas stations or restaurants, let alone a Tesla oasis. Our Chevy Traverse SUV, with its 500 mile per tank capacity, came in quite nicely.

And our retirement plans call for more such trips to see the country. If we wanted, a hybrid-type SUV would be OK, but a plug-in car? Forget it.

Bill
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But I don't think that you are being realistic on how fast it is possible for EV sales to replace ICE car sales.

Possibly. But nobody is arguing any more more about what is going to happen, just how long it will take. And keep in mind what we see in Norway: nobody is buying diesels despite them being perfectly usable and at least five years from obsolescence.

You are suggesting, roughly, that EV sales will have to be double the rate of current car sales in order that all ICE cars get replaced in about 10 years.
This means that not only will all current car assembly plants get replaced or converted to EV production but that for each of these factories another new EV factory will have to be built.
Numerous Tesla-gigafactory sized battery factories would be in addition to this.


No. EV sales don't have to replace ICE sales. People can stop buying ICE vehicles without deciding to purchase EVs. They can hang on to old ICEs until they get too expensive and annoying. They can simply have fewer cars, which will be quite common if we see more "transportation as a service" type things taking over. A one car family can easily become the norm.

Yes, we will see some factories converted and many new ones built. Tesla's Shanghai factory is about to start early production in the next week or so. This, after the fastest construction of such a factory ever. See the video in this piece (https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-3-anniversary-in...). Mind-blowing! Incredible work on the part of the Chinese.

This is just silly talk. Even if it were possible, the car makers won't intentionally over build an unsustainable production capacity.

ICEs are already fairly optimized, while EVs are on a typical high tech downward spiral in price. The moment it's cheaper to buy an EV than an ICE in an equivalent form factor, ICE sales will plummet. In every way other than purchase price EVs are already superior for many people. It's hard to express just how nice it is to never need to go to a gas station again.

Car makers will do what they can to stay in business. For many, nothing other than being propped up by their respective governments will suffice.

-IGU-
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You may suggest that all you want but I have personal experience with vehicles over 10 years of age.

Don't we all? I gave up my 1994 Accord daily driver when I bought my 2014 Tesla Model S. What's your point? How long will you hang on to a car that costs you more than it is worth?

-IGU-
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Don't we all? I gave up my 1994 Accord daily driver when I bought my 2014 Tesla Model S. What's your point? How long will you hang on to a car that costs you more than it is worth?

How long I hang on to a car is not that dependent on costs I spend to maintain it. If I have a car worth $1000 and it's $1500 in repairs, I may make that repair because it avoids $20k-$40k in expenditures for a new car. It's a fair trade-off if I get another year out of it.

PSU
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What will the worth of a 10 year old Tesla be compared to a brand new Tesla and other new EVs from other manufacturers?

Hard to say. What we know at this point, with the oldest Model S being from 2012, is that they are still better than any EV built by any other manufacturer. We're sincerely hoping that will change, but so far nobody has shipped anything very good in the EV space other than Tesla. Nothing I would buy anyway.

As to comparisons with new Teslas, the old ones are missing many nice features. On the other hand, as you can see here (https://onlyusedtesla.com/listings/?_sft_car_year=2012), even used Teslas that old are worth $30K or more to somebody. They still drive great. And some people don't care about heated steering wheels or autopilot. Plus the old ones generally have free unlimited supercharging and a bigger frunk than the new ones. An awesome road trip vehicle when your fuel is free!

Also you like to point out that the Tesla stays up to date with software updates. Since you are an Apple fan too, you should know a 6 year old iPhone 5C cannot be upgraded to iOS 13. It is limited to iOS 10.

Yeah, tell me about it. My family has three iPhone 5S and an iPhone 6 that won't upgrade to the newest iOS. I haven't yet figured out how to deal with them no longer being actively supported. Not to mention the iPhone 4S I'm using in place of the land line.

As it turns out though, the expected life of a car is much longer than a mobile phone, so they are supported for far longer. So while I don't think you can play Asteroids on the older Teslas, they still get updates related to safety and security, as well as minor features.

Then there is the wear and tear of driving that tele mentioned. There are no software updates for physical item such as paint, interior finishes, suspension, power windows, and so on.

Technology is changing rapidly. EVs are changing rapidly. A 10 year old Tesla may look like a Model T in the future.


The marketplace figures out how to deal with these things. Even the crappiest old car is better than no car for somebody, providing it doesn't cost more to keep working than it is worth.

-IGU-
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This is a non-issue. Apartment buildings provide gyms, swimming pools, playgrounds, dog parks, bike storage, wine refrigerators, and common party areas as amenities. If some large percentage of people wanted EV chargers, management would provide them.

Speaking as the owner of rental properties, what you describe is only a non-issue if the renter lives in a fairly large apartment complex. Most don't. In 2017, well over half of renters lived in 1 - 4 unit rentals, with only 36% living in rentals consisting of 5 or more units. https://www.statista.com/statistics/743422/share-of-resident... And I would argue that even in that group, for complexes of up to probably 10 or 12 units, most landlords aren't going to be very accommodating about putting chargers in unless the rental market is soft and there are a lot of renters who own EVs.

So, I would say that it is a problem for renters. If one of my renters wants an EV charger, I'm not going to pay to put it in without them paying me back somehow - either in higher rent, or having them pay for at least the installation, if not the equipment itself, even though they will have to leave it when they move out.

AJ
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telegraph,

You wrote, wow...7% of all vehicles will be EVs by 2030!

That figure seems unreasonably low to me. In over a decade? I think the figure will be over a critical mass long before then. I think by 2030 we're talking well over 25% EVs on the road, with EV sales being the majority and ICE vehicle sales becoming a novelty.

I know in Texas EVs are not that popular. And the Texas Legislature and local dealers have has been actively trying to block the sale of Tesla vehicles as well. And then there's the range anxiety issue that is particularly pronounced in a state like Texas where cities and towns are far apart. But here in Western Washington state EVs are quite popular - especially with the tech crowd.

About 5% of the vehicles that routinely park in my building's parking garage are now Teslas. That figure took a big jump after the Model 3 went into production. Before that there were maybe 2 or 3. There are also a number of non-Tesla EVs like Nissans and Chevy Volts.

Of course we have a fairly tech-savvy crowd that isn't afraid of new-fangled electronic gadgets... Also gas is more expensive here. And we tend to value our local environment - which is naturally nicer than anything in Texas, at least if you like outdoor activities.

Personally I think EVs make a lot of sense sense, even if I still own a 13 year old ICE vehicle. But I also think it will take more than 10 years to make ICE vehicle irrelevant. However I think there will be a tipping point in new car sales before the next decade is out.

In particular renewable energy is already beginning to reach a tipping point. It's already much cheaper to produce electricity using solar panels from large commercial installations than it is from any traditional combustion source. Wind energy is also extremely competitive in some areas like Oklahoma parts of North Texas and several of the plains states. And coal will never again be the most cost-effective way to produce electricity. Coal-fired plants produce about a quarter of our electricity nationwide and that percentage is falling every year as plants are retired - often early because they're too expensive to operate. In fact we would be further along in the renewable energy revolution by now, if fracking hadn't come along and made natgas dirt cheap...

The key problems needing to be solved for renewables are storage and distribution (mainly for wind power). At the moment these two items can be fairly expensive - especially if you intend to provide storage for an extended period. This limits there adoptions when you can fairly inexpensively generate peak power at a natgas fired plant. However since the cost of renewable energy continues to decline over time and since the cost of oil production continues to rise over time, it's only reasonable to assume everyone will switch over to EVs eventually. I just think ItsGoingUp's time frame is unrealistic.

- Joel
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"In other words, if the choice of a car affects your retirement planning, you may be spending too much on cars.

CNC "

*************************************************

Funny thing is how many shows there are about automobile auctions anymore.
Folks seem to enjoy renovating the cars they loved as kids.
Other folks seem to love buying them.

Somehow or other the odds of making a living by investing in cars seems
lower as you drive away from dealerships.

Howie52
Cars are in that "fun" category methinks.
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And keep in mind what we see in Norway: nobody is buying diesels despite them being perfectly usable and at least five years from obsolescence. - IGU

---------------------

A "solution" that meets the transportation requirments of Norway which is less than one-half the size of Texas may not be a good proxy for what meets the need of the USA.
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Again, you have not shown that for a $40K SUV versus an $84.5k Model X.

I won't try to show a Model X is cheaper than a $40K SUV because it isn't. For lower total cost of ownership you have to look at the Model 3 vs. vaguely comparable ICE cars, like a Camry. At this point it's close to a comparably equipped Camry if you drive enough and depending on local rebates, taxes, registration, insurance, and estimated maintenance. Lots to argue over.

Here's one recent comparison (https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/17/total-cost-of-ownership...). I certainly don't agree with all the details, but it's worth looking over for creating your own comparison.

-IGU-
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Take a typical garden style apartment complex, say 250 units.

Actually, those complexes are not 'typical' since they house less than 36% of renters. https://www.statista.com/statistics/743422/share-of-resident...

Last month my local Safeway just installed two free EV chargers. I'm certain they did a similar calculation. They believe they will siphon away enough customers from stores without EV chargers that it is a worthwhile investment.

And yet, my friend who owns a Leaf had a low battery, so she plugged in at a charging location at a local store and walked across the street to a restaurant to have dinner with me. By the time we were done with dinner, the store was closed.

AJ
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skye:"Last month my local Safeway just installed two free EV chargers. I'm certain they did a similar calculation. "

Likely they got a subsidy to put it in, could take a big write-off, and got to get some 'virtue signalling points' in their annual report to satisfy some left wing complainers.

Wow - 2 chargers - probably slow ones - not even a drop in the bucket.

Did you check to see that they were actually 'free'?

t.
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We just got back from a 4,400 mile trip from Milwaukee to Los Angeles, going west on what used to be Route 66, (via TX, NM, AZ) and coming back through Las Vegas, Denver, and Omaha, where we had friends we wanted to see. Most days we averaged 500-600 miles/day, with breaks for sightseeing, including a lost of odd historic Route 66 landmarks.

A Tesla would not have made this trip, needing to stop to recharge, and just figuring out where recharging was available.


A good example of why this thread is needed. A Tesla would have no problem making such a trip. People do it all the time. I've done similar trips. The supercharger network is awesome. And the way the Nav system works in a Tesla is you just enter your destination and it routes you there, telling you what superchargers to stop at and for how long. Of course in reality you use that only as a general guide, because it varies how long you want to spend eating, using the facilities, shopping, sightseeing, or whatever. And where you stop for the night (if you stop) makes a difference, because if you can charge then it effectively takes no time. In general, what you find is that driving an EV means that your trip takes a little longer, but you feel better when you get there. And if you can use autopilot for large portions of it, then you arrive feeling much better.

In addition you can use such things as https://www.evtripplanner.com to figure out routes. I never use it since my Tesla does just fine figuring such things out, but it's helpful if you aren't familiar with EVs. For example it says that Milwaukee to Los Angeles is 2097.9 miles and will take 26h32m of driving time plus a little under eight hours of charging time. As I said, since charging time tends to do double duty with eating time and sleeping time and such, on a typical trip the added time is much less. And with a little experience you get good at optimizing. That particular trip it figures you stopping at superchargers 18 times, for varying lengths of time; reality will differ.

So the trip you describe is quite doable, and would probably be more fun. Certainly the driving would be.

-IGU-
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A "solution" that meets the transportation requirments of Norway which is less than one-half the size of Texas may not be a good proxy for what meets the need of the USA.

Irrelevant. I'm talking about how the market behaves.

Speaking of Texas, in much of the state electricity is free at night due to excess wind power and a grid that goes nowhere. EVs become even more compelling when you can fuel them for free.

-IGU-
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But, but ... why is this thread here on this board AT ALL???

I originally posted this because people were discussing budgeting for major purchases, and their view of cars seemed out of date at best. The present and future are different. Seemed worth discussing.

However, this thread seems to have attracted the attention of a couple of fact-free imbeciles, so it was probably a mistake. Sorry. I'm seeing a bunch of grey, but I'm sure it's just a distraction to others.

Retirement is about more than simple budgeting to survive. It's also about enjoying yourself. As a guy who never previously bought a car considering anything other than "can it reasonably get me from A to B when I want it to" I have found my Tesla purchase(s) to have extraordinarily good choices. Not only are the cars great, but they keep getting better and better.

-IGU-
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IGU: However, this thread seems to have attracted the attention of a couple of fact-free imbeciles, so it was probably a mistake. Sorry. I'm seeing a bunch of grey, but I'm sure it's just a distraction to others.

I suppose that would be me in the fact-free imbecile department. I don't see any connection between one's choice of transportation and retirement. My car purchases don't affect my net worth all that much. But I buy Fords, Chevy, etc. But a Tesla wouldn't change that very much. Now, an Aston Martin or a Lambo ...

I see you as just anther Tesla zealot, preaching your religion.

CNC
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Frye's Super Electronics Store here has had 3 spots for EVs for the last 10 years. No chargers there. Usually one or two Leafs might be parked there. Now I guess a Tesla could use it. saves you 300 feet likely to further out in the lot.

Just some 'virtue signalling'.... We're green and can write about it in our annual report!


t.
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That figure seems unreasonably low to me. In over a decade? I think the figure will be over a critical mass long before then. I think by 2030 we're talking well over 25% EVs on the road, with EV sales being the majority and ICE vehicle sales becoming a novelty.


Have you done the math on how we get to 25% EVs by 2030?
Here is my take. Given that the average age of cars on the road is 11+ years it follows that it takes at least ~20 years to turn over the entire fleet of cars in the US. It would take ~10 years of sales at 50% of all new cars sold being EVs to get to 25% by 2030. This isn't going to happen. If we were to linearly ramp from, essentially zero today to 50% in 2030 that would mean about 12.5% of all cars on the road would be EVs by 2030.

In reality growth in EV sales will be lower initially and then accelerate more later on.

Mike
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IGU - over and over again: " And keep in mind what we see in Norway: nobody is buying diesels despite them being perfectly usable and at least five years from obsolescence."


You keep repeating that mantra, but diesel prices spiked to $12/gal in Norway due to taxes.....and EVs get big subsidies and save thousands a year on toll roads. You keep failing to mention that about teeny weenie Norway, which has fewer people in the entire country than we have in just the Dallas-Ft Worth Metroplex .......

They aren't buying diesels (their former preferred cars) because EVs get thousands a year in subsidies! Every year. Year after year. Money in the car drivers pockets...or should I say, not ripped out of car drivers pockets....by the tollroads and bridges....


t.
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AJ:"And yet, my friend who owns a Leaf had a low battery, so she plugged in at a charging location at a local store and walked across the street to a restaurant to have dinner with me. By the time we were done with dinner, the store was closed."

In a lot of places, her car would have been towed since she was using the lot but did not visit the store.

t.
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IGU:"Speaking of Texas, in much of the state electricity is free at night due to excess wind power and a grid that goes nowhere. EVs become even more compelling when you can fuel them for free."

Nothing is free. Some electric companies will give you 'free' nights...but charge you more during the day to make up for it. They try to convince you that you use most of your electricity at night when you are home. Unless you are willing to come home to 100F apartment, you'll be running your a/c all day long and sucking up electricity 30% higher in price...so you get 'free' nights. Then you can do your laundry and use your electric dryer once a week 'at night' after 9pm or so......to save 10c, while you paid $5 extra during the day for a/c your apartment.

There's another 'rate' for 'free weekends'....yeah...but they charge you more during the week to make up for it.


Nothing anyone sells you is 'free'.

t.
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I suppose that would be me in the fact-free imbecile department.

Nope, not at all. You are just ignorant about EVs in general and Teslas in particular, which is hardly surprising. It was to inform people such as yourself that I posted.

I think it's pretty obvious who are the people posting all sorts of nonsense as facts without ever backing any of it up.

-IGU-
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Dang, late to a very lengthy thread.

Two bits to add, one serious, one not.

Serious, Transportation As A Service: https://www.rethinkx.com/transportation-executive-summary

I've posted this a couple times on Fool boards, and other places, since it was first published. I recommend downloading the full report to read at your leisure. I find the analysis sound, the predictions worth my consideration. I'm driving a 20-year-old sedan with plans to drive it until the end of it's life and replace it with the last 'personal' car I'll ever own.

Not so serious, but worthy of some volume: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAvQSkK8Z8U (Rush, Red Barchetta)

-Kip
Working on the balance of income/expenses to pick my 'work optional' decision
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. I don't see any connection between one's choice of transportation and retirement.

Yeah, that’s me. I’m probably going to buy a car in the t couple years, and I’ll be driving that car well into retirement. I want something that’s going to last a long time and give me minimal problems and max reliability.

A car is a way to get from A to B. That’s it.
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"But I don't think that you are being realistic on how fast it is possible for EV sales to replace ICE car sales."

Possibly. But nobody is arguing any more more about what is going to happen, just how long it will take.


Yes they are. Plenty of people are saying that the EV car boom is just a fad, and EVs will never be more than a small portion of the automobile fleet.
Most people don't bother to engage in the argument, though. They just don't feel the need to listen to the rationales of the EV fanboys.
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Plenty of people are saying that the EV car boom is just a fad, and EVs will never be more than a small portion of the automobile fleet.

Okay, there are indeed a large number of oil and legacy auto manufacturer shills who are screaming about this as loud as they can. Every day they delay the demise of big oil is immensely profitable to them so that's what they do.

But nobody rational without an agenda is making that argument. It's pretty much climate change denier territory.

-IGU-
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telegraph,

You wrote, Did you check to see that they were actually 'free'?

Actually free EV charging stations are fairly common in Western Washington. Lots of stores here have them. There are a few an easy walk from my house, including at the Walgreens that's in the same shopping center as my local Safeway.

And no, these are not the same as a Tesla supercharger, but from what I hear they do about as well as the ones you can get for your house that run off of 220V.

So a free top-off of your car's battery while you go inside and shop is a thing here...

- Joel
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telegraph,

You wrote, AJ:"And yet, my friend who owns a Leaf had a low battery, so she plugged in at a charging location at a local store and walked across the street to a restaurant to have dinner with me. By the time we were done with dinner, the store was closed."

In a lot of places, her car would have been towed since she was using the lot but did not visit the store.


True. And I personally would have a hard time with the ethics of using a charging station at a store I'm not visiting just because they're paying for the electricity I'm taking and I'm in no way compensating them for it.

But I know the area aj485 is talking about and I'm pretty certain the risk of the car being towed was almost nil. They're usually just too neighborly for that.

- Joel
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Retirement is about more than simple budgeting to survive. It's also about enjoying yourself. As a guy who never previously bought a car considering anything other than "can it reasonably get me from A to B when I want it to" I have found my Tesla purchase(s) to have extraordinarily good choices. Not only are the cars great, but they keep getting better and better.

My yellow Honda S2000 was my choice and after 2 years, I still love it. It’s a 2001 and Honda no lounger makes them so I’m really not there with you on the better and better thing.
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I did not have much to add to this thread. I bought my Corolla in 2009 and will continue to drive it until it starts to need repairs. Then I will buy a new car.
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This man is a charlatan. Don't listen to a word he says.
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That is ThomFranklin
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A car is a way to get from A to B. That’s it.

Yep. I don't get to excited about buying a refrigerator either. A car is just another appliance.

That being said, I'm waiting until Toyota has a Hybrid 4WD Tacoma, then I might buy new. Our next car will probably be a Prius Prime plug in Hybrid.

V
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I’m probably going to buy a car in the t couple years, and I’ll be driving that car well into retirement. I want something that’s going to last a long time and give me minimal problems and max reliability.

At 70 years old (which is when we start taking Social Security, right?) we can reasonably expect to live another 20 years. Since we will not be putting on mileage by commuting to work anymore, a current model car would probably last 15, maybe 20, years.

So the question arises, do we want to drive the same aging car for the rest of our life, missing out on all the new safety & comfort features of the newer cars?
Or do we want to get a new car every 5-7 years, so that we always are in a relatively new and up-to-date car?

As my wife continually points out, if *we* don't spend our money on things like new cars, round-the-world cruises, etc. then our kids will ... after we die.
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V:That being said, I'm waiting until Toyota has a Hybrid 4WD Tacoma, then I might buy new. Our next car will probably be a Prius Prime plug in Hybrid."

With a Prius that gets 50 mpg, a plug in one, other than in La-la land,probably would save you all of $6/month in gas. Unless you drive a lot.

I do 100 miles a week in my Prius and put in 8-10 gallons a month.....at $2.07/gal......and I don't have to worry about plugging in every night when the car is in the garage.


t.
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. Certainly the driving would be.

You keep making this argument that Teslas are so much more fun to drive, but there is an implied assumption there that people buy a car just because of the driving experience. There is an entire cohort out here of which I am a member who does not value the driving experience at all. It is simply necessary so that we have transportation to get from Point A to Point B. DH, on the other hand, as well as my nephew (who has a particular Ferrari model of which there are only a handful in the country) put great emphasis on that driving experience similar to you.

For those of us who just view it as transportation, there's not a whole lot you can do to change our value set to include this "fun driving experience." It simply holds no attraction for me.

I am perfectly happy with my 2018 Civic, and would still be driving my 2012 Civic except that DS needed a car, and so I have the old Civic to him. It only had about 140k miles on it, so it's still a baby, and he should have it for a bunch of years. I expect to have my 2018 Civic for a good 8 to 10 years, and we still have the 2004 Odyssey that I expect we will be driving for another few years as well.

For me, a car is transportation, and holds no appeal as any sort of "fun experience". I simply don't care about that.
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Since we will not be putting on mileage by commuting to work anymore, a current model car would probably last 15, maybe 20, years.

Yeah, I thought that after I retired and no longer had commuting mileage, then my annual mileage driven would go down. Haha. It seems that no moss grows on my car, which will be a year old at the beginning of December, and already has 14k miles on it.

And I still think I don't go anywhere :-)

So the question arises, do we want to drive the same aging car for the rest of our life, missing out on all the new safety & comfort features of the newer cars?
Or do we want to get a new car every 5-7 years, so that we always are in a relatively new and up-to-date car?


My Dad is sort of in this boat. He is 99, and is now talking about replacing his 7-8 year old car with something newer so that his wife (she will be 89 next week) will have a newer car that won't need anything after he is gone.

I see no reason why he shouldn't be spending his money on him, and if a new car makes him happy, I say go for it!
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Actually free EV charging stations are fairly common in Western Washington. Lots of stores here have them. There are a few an easy walk from my house, including at the Walgreens that's in the same shopping center as my local Safeway.

And no, these are not the same as a Tesla supercharger, but from what I hear they do about as well as the ones you can get for your house that run off of 220V.

So a free top-off of your car's battery while you go inside and shop is a thing here...


At the Walgreens & Safeway, how many charging stations are there? When you visit, how many are typically being used and how many are vacant? How many ICE cars are parked there vs. how many EV cars? What percentage are EVs?

Because things will get a lot different when 25% of the cars are EVs than when there are only 4%-5%.

Another thing I wonder about is related to my observation of handicap parking slots. Around here there are many retirees and hence many with handicap plates, and at popular shopping times the handicap spaces are all full.
Assuming that not all the parking spaces have a charging station, how will they be allocated between handicap and regular slots? Hard problem. Put a charger in a handicap spot where it is unusable by non-handicapped people? Are the chargers in slots close to the door, where people prefer to park, but non-EV cars will prevent an EV from access to the charger? Because people WILL park as close to the door as they can, even if the stall has a sign "Reserved for XYZ". Are the chargers put on the outskirts of the parking lot, so that non-EV cars won't park there and block the charger? So now a handicap person with an EV will not be able to use the charger?
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"You keep making this argument that Teslas are so much more fun to drive, but there is an implied assumption there that people buy a car just because of the driving experience. There is an entire cohort out here of which I am a member who does not value the driving experience at all. It is simply necessary so that we have transportation to get from Point A to Point B."

I agree...I live in a suburban 'town'......now up to 330,000 people and traffic everywhere. My trips are always on six lane suburban roads with hundreds of other cars at 40 mph, with occasional trips on US75 at 60-70 mph (8 lanes - lots of traffic). l If you commute here to work, your commute is going the mile or two between traffic lights in heavy traffic at 30-40 mph and sitting at traffic lights. You could have a Ferrari or Porsche and your speed is no more than the rest of the 50,000 commuters on the road. If you venture onto US75 at that time, you'll likely be doing 20-30 mph and some stop and go as you head south. Further south near Dallas it's 10mph and stop and go for miles.


Driving experience? no way. Not like the ads on TV that show you in your car with no other traffic on the roads, zipping along in your new 'driving experience' car.

You've got to go 40-50 miles from here to find the 'open road'.....and 200 miles to find 'rural TX' and 75 mph speed limits and no traffic lights for 30 miles. Or 500 miles on the interstate .....

Why buy an expensive 'show car'? Does a Tesla beat rush hour traffic? Is the radio any better than the six speaker excellent audio system in my Prius? Or the XM satellite radio in my Malibu? (both have inputs from your iPhone type radio to stream your playlist too).....and I have unlimited data for $15/month.

Well, I'm retired so I miss most of rush hour other than getting to an event a few times a month for dinner somewhere. And I take couple thousand mile trips around the country but I don't think 'wow, I'm driving an XYZ vehicle for the driving experience!'......

Now I did have fun renting a Jeep in the high mountains of CO for a couple days......way up on the Alpine loop near Silverton.....I guess if I lived there I'd own a Jeep....but I don't and I can rent one reasonably and get it out of my system. Jeeps are poorly rated by Consumer Reports as troublesome and costly......

Yeah, when I was 23, I bought a Corvette....fun car to drive in rural IL.....kept it 8 years. Got most of my money back. Got it out of my system......and no need to 'relive' my youth by buying another or similar 'sports car' for show off. At least not at this location.


t.
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So the question arises, do we want to drive the same aging car for the rest of our life, missing out on all the new safety & comfort features of the newer cars?
Or do we want to get a new car every 5-7 years, so that we always are in a relatively new and up-to-date car?


I'm with Ray on this.

For years I've been going from vehicles that are 12+ years old to ones that are 0-3 years old, and every time it feels like I'm stepping out of the stone age.

I still spend a lot of time on the road and I appreciate the quiet & comfort that newer cars offer. As finances permit, I'm very open to making the change sooner rather than later.
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I am perfectly happy with my 2018 Civic, and would still be driving my 2012 Civic except that DS needed a car, and so I have the old Civic to him. It only had about 140k miles on it, so it's still a baby, and he should have it for a bunch of years.

I suspect there are quite a few well-to-do retirees in this category. Adult son/daughter raising a family, needs a car because their car just broke down, Mom & Pop have a several year old car in good condition and can easily afford to buy a new car. Family solution: Mom/Pop to give or sell for a song their car to the kid, and then buy a new car for themselves.
We have done that twice now, for our (adult) kids. I remember well when we were young and raising three toddlers and BOTH our our cars broke down (the muffler fell off one, the timing chain broke on the other). Our parents were able to help us out, and we helped out our kids in turn.


For me, a car is transportation, and holds no appeal as any sort of "fun experience". I simply don't care about that.

The comfort & safety features in our current car that the old (but still in good condition) car was the primary reason we chose the model we did.
Adaptive cruise control. Automatic braking to avoid collision. Blind spot warning. Backup warning. Lane keeping assist. Automatic windshield wipers. Automatic headlights and automatic high/low beam. Power passenger seat. Seat heaters. Set-and-forget climate control.
The one downside was no CD player, so I had to copy my car CDs to a USB stick.

Most of those things were not even available in 2007/2008 when we bought our previous car.

For the "fun" driving experience, we hop in the BMW Z4 2-seater convertible.
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"For years I've been going from vehicles that are 12+ years old to ones that are 0-3 years old, and every time it feels like I'm stepping out of the stone age."


I dunno. My 12 year old Prius and 3 year old Malibu seem to hit the same traffic jams and red lights with equal ease. Neither one has me feeling like I'm missing out on a lot of technology. Both have airbags galore, decent safety ratings. Both keep up with traffic with ease.

I've only kept one car 17 years (1990 Honda Accord). Ran fine but the car was 'old' with worn out seats and suspension...so it's time with me was up. Still a good driving car for someone on a budget. The newer one didn't go any better in traffic - or save time on the road with 40 mph speed limits here. Both got to destination in same number of minutes.

I buy a new car every 7-8 years after 175-200K miles. works for me. Standard mid size car with CLOTH seats. You really really don't want leather seats when it's 110F outside and sun beating down. or at zero degrees. Or a 'black color car'!


t.
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For years I've been going from vehicles that are 12+ years old to ones that are 0-3 years old, and every time it feels like I'm stepping out of the stone age.

I still spend a lot of time on the road and I appreciate the quiet & comfort that newer cars offer.


Just about every time we get in the car (Honda CR-V Touring), my wife says "Have I mentioned today that I *LOVE* this car?" She never said that about the Rav4. Heated seats, passenger seat has power adjustment, dual climate control so she can have her side warm and I can have my side cooler.

We recently had the tires rotated, and we both noticed that the tire noise got vastly louder. It's the original tires and they still have good tread, but she is of the opinion that we should just go ahead and get new (quiet) tires.


As finances permit, I'm very open to making the change sooner rather than later.

When we bought it, we got a 1.99% 5 year loan (Capital One, via the dealer's finance guy). At a time when Capital One web site's best rate was 3.25%. I can't bear the thought of giving up that 1.99% rate so we are probably going to stick with this car for the whole 5 years.
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My 12 year old Prius and 3 year old Malibu seem to hit the same traffic jams and red lights with equal ease. Neither one has me feeling like I'm missing out on a lot of technology. Both have airbags galore, decent safety ratings.

Collision avoidance braking. Your 12 year old doesn't have that. The 3 year old may or may not.

An absolutely valuable feature, especially if you do much rush hour driving. We were on the highway recently in heavy traffic and came upon a traffic jam. I braked down to about 20 MPH, and then suddenly an 18-wheeler changed lanes in front of me and stopped. The car said "BRAKE!!" and flashed BRAKE on the speedometer display, and we came to a stop. My wife asked, "Was that you that hit the brakes or the car?" I said, "The car. I was hitting the brake but the car already hit the brakes first."

The deer that suddenly jumped out in front of us got saved because of the collision avoidance braking. I didn't even have time to react. The #1 cause of accidents in our town is hitting a deer.
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Serious, Transportation As A Service: https://www.rethinkx.com/transportation-executive-summary

Really? I was checking to see if that was written by a satire website.

PSU
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Here's one recent comparison (https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/17/total-cost-of-ownership...). I certainly don't agree with all the details, but it's worth looking over for creating your own comparison.

I sure hope you don't agree with the details. For the Toyota Camry, they list $495 in maintenance in the first 15k miles. The only maintenance during that time is one oil change, 2-3 tire rotations and possibly windshield wiper replacements. Anyone spending $495 is being ripped off. For the first 5 years (60k miles), it states $4000 in maintenance and repairs. You have called other posters sources of information junk over the years yet you rely on this junk estimate. Someone else posted a similar comparison on the Atheist board recently. That one states a timing belt change was required when the Camry uses a timing chain, not belt.

PSU
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At the Walgreens & Safeway, how many charging stations are there? When you visit, how many are typically being used and how many are vacant? How many ICE cars are parked there vs. how many EV cars? What percentage are EVs?

Because things will get a lot different when 25% of the cars are EVs than when there are only 4%-5%.


You have a knack for making simple things sound complicated. EV chargers at stores and apartment buildings are amenities offered by management to attract shoppers or tenants who otherwise might go somewhere else. Just like many hotels provide fitness centers. Not all hotels provide them, and most guests don't use them, but enough guests want that amenity that for some hotels the space devoted to fitness centers is more cost effective than using that same space as guest rooms.

Stores and apartment buildings (and hotels for that matter) will offer EV charging spaces as an amenity as long as they think it attract shoppers or tenants who otherwise might go somewhere else. It really is that simple.

This is non-theoretical. Most higher end hotels already offer free EV charging for guests, and locally we're starting to see this for higher end apartment building as well (charging anyway, I'm not sure about free). I'm sure they aren't doing it because they want to run charities. Sure, you won't see EV charging at the Motel 6 in Jerome, Idaho. The Jerome Motel 6 also doesn't have a fitness center and a pool. But at the Seattle Hampton Inn, you bet.

Another thing I wonder about is related to my observation of handicap parking slots. Around here there are many retirees and hence many with handicap plates, and at popular shopping times the handicap spaces are all full.

Assuming that not all the parking spaces have a charging station, how will they be allocated between handicap and regular slots? Hard problem. Put a charger in a handicap spot where it is unusable by non-handicapped people? Are the chargers in slots close to the door, where people prefer to park, but non-EV cars will prevent an EV from access to the charger? Because people WILL park as close to the door as they can, even if the stall has a sign "Reserved for XYZ". Are the chargers put on the outskirts of the parking lot, so that non-EV cars won't park there and block the charger? So now a handicap person with an EV will not be able to use the charger?


Actually, it is a dead simple problem. The ADA requires a certain percentage of all parking spaces to be accessible. So no, you can't have non-handicapped people using ADA spaces.
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Anyone spending $495 is being ripped off.

I think that being ripped off by the dealer doing unnecessary and overpriced maintenance is pretty typical. This is one reason that Tesla has no dealers. And dealers hate EVs in general because the maintenance is much simpler and cheaper so much of their income stream goes away.

You have called other posters sources of information junk over the years yet you rely on this junk estimate.

No, I don't. Nor do I suggest it. You quote my words: "I certainly don't agree with all the details, but it's worth looking over for creating your own comparison." Suggest a better comparison if you like, but the truth is that a Model 3 is already cheaper than a Camry for total cost of ownership for some people, and within the next couple of years it will be for everybody.

That one states a timing belt change was required when the Camry uses a timing chain, not belt.

Are you sure? When I looked up a quote on a repair for my Toyota Highlander I was surprised to see that some model years used a belt and others used a chain. I think some confusion would not be unusual.

-IGU-
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Are you sure? When I looked up a quote on a repair for my Toyota Highlander I was surprised to see that some model years used a belt and others used a chain. I think some confusion would not be unusual.

There is no confusion when the specific model year is stated in the comparison.

http://toyota.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/7690/~/do...

PSU
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You keep making this argument that Teslas are so much more fun to drive, but there is an implied assumption there that people buy a car just because of the driving experience.

I'm expressing myself badly then. Teslas are certainly more fun to drive for people who enjoy driving. But that's not what's important. As evidenced by my daily driver being a 19yo Honda Accord before I got my Tesla, I'm not a transportation as fun kind of guy. What's important is that driving a Tesla is just a better experience. It's fun.

Here are a few examples.
--------
After a couple of months you realize it has been a while since you've been to a gas station. And you also realize what a low quality way that was to spend your time. It takes just a few seconds to plug your car in, and you can have a full tank (so to speak) with little effort. Life is (slightly) better.

You can pull out your phone and use the Tesla app to pre-heat or cool your car. It doesn't matter if it's in an enclosed garage because there are no emissions. The car is comfortable to get into when you arrive.

You can leave your dog in the car with "Dog Mode" set. It keeps the temperature pleasant and the air circulating. It puts information on the screen telling people not to worry.

The sound system is awesome, and the screen is too. The latest software update lets you watch Netflix and Youtube (when the car is parked). It's a really good experience.

"Chill Mode" takes the edge off of performance, making everything very smooth.

During the fires in California that made the air quality terrible for days, the nicest place to be was in my Model S with the ventilation system set on "Bioweapon Defense Mode". This cleaned the air so that I couldn't even detect any smoke.

The most recent software update has brought "Smart Summon" where you can get your driverless car to unpark itself and come to you in a parking lot. They're working on the opposite ability, where it will be able to go find a parking spot and park itself. And they're working on making it all smooth and effective. It's pretty rough right now, and the emphasis is on safety. This seems like kind of a stunt until you're caught in a rainstorm or have serious mobility issues -- then it becomes a huge win.

There are many other examples....
--------

Here are a couple of things that Elon Musk said about Tesla vehicles:
- "I think a Tesla is the most fun thing you could possibly ever buy."
- "It's not a car, it's a thing to maximize enjoyment."

This is the central design point of Teslas. Everything has been designed with the expectation that the car will eventually be driving itself, so that what's most important is the non-driving person's experience of the car.

And for those who love the experience of getting a new car, software updates provide a bit of that every few weeks as your car learns how to do something new. Many of the examples I gave did not exist in my car when I got it, then they appeared like magic!

Anyway, I appreciate your perspective, and I was the same way until I got this car. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear about why I enjoy the car so much. I'm pretty sure that within a few years it will be the most desirable car for retirees to own. It makes getting from A to B so much better. And, at the same time, it makes Ferraris look kind of pathetic. :)

-IGU-
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Serious, Transportation As A Service:

We've had transportation as a service for a couple of centuries or more, particularly in cities. In the western world, we call them horse drawn cabs or taxis. In the East, rickshaws. It's nothing new.

Those are still available, of course. They've just been updated to automobiles.

Once railroads became available, we supplemented taxis with street cars and subways within cities, and trains between cities. When automobiles hit the scene, we also added busses.

For very long distances, boats have been the mainstay TAAS for thousands of years. Once airplanes got out of their beta testing, they became the go-to for long distance TAAS.

In most large cities around the world, it's not too hard - and is often easier - to live without a car.

All this current TAAS stuff is talking about is getting rid of the taxi driver and replacing him/her with a robot. There's nothing revolutionary at all about the concept of TAAS. It's the robot driver that is the cutting edge piece.

--Peter
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" The #1 cause of accidents in our town is hitting a deer. "

I don't live up north with deer problems.

#1 cause of accidents here is tailgaters and illegals driving with no license, no insurance, and likely poor brakes on their cars or red light runners. My impression when I first moved down here is when the light turns red, no more than six cars can continue through the light. Red light cameras were so unpopular they got scrapped in most places because too many got caught.

Zillions of folks tail ended. Until you put collision avoidance in their cars, it matters not on your car.


t.
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PSU:"Anyone spending $495 is being ripped off. For the first 5 years (60k miles), it states $4000 in maintenance and repairs."

I think I had two free oil changes as part of my original deal (they'll always throw that it). Oil changes are at about 8000 miles on my Malibu (it has a oil life indicator).

So in 60K miles, five oil changes and two paid for in the original deal. $50 each at the GM dealer. so 3x50 - $150

I buy my tires at Discount Tire. They rotate tires for free. I have a long history so even on new car, they'll rotate them - I usually do about 8000 miles - rotate them when I get oil changed.

Original tires lasted 55,000 or more miles. Cost of tires in 60K miles - $440 or so.....but that is true of any vehicle including EV! My Prius, due to small diameter tires, eats them a lot faster!

Air filter - every 45K miles. About $15 at the auto parts place.

Malibu has no 'timing chain' that needs changing at 60K or 90K ......... good engine design.
Serpentine belt - last one lasted life of car - 175K miles.

Spark plugs....last Malibu lasted 175K miles no problem. Had LeSabre and changed out plugs at 110K miles - looked like brand new spark plugs - dealer showed me them. That was 3 cars ago. Decided plugs will last life of car. Will change if mileage drops.

So.....my cost for the IC engine (not tires) for first 60K miles - $165. Not $4000! Add in cost for tires - $440....and its up to $600.

Anti-freeze lasts life of car. Muffler/exhaust last life of car. Did have to replace O-2 sensor at 106K miles.


t.
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Rayvt,

You wrote, At the Walgreens & Safeway, how many charging stations are there? When you visit, how many are typically being used and how many are vacant? How many ICE cars are parked there vs. how many EV cars? What percentage are EVs?

Because things will get a lot different when 25% of the cars are EVs than when there are only 4%-5%.

Another thing I wonder about is related to my observation of handicap parking slots. Around here there are many retirees and hence many with handicap plates, and at popular shopping times the handicap spaces are all full.

Assuming that not all the parking spaces have a charging station, how will they be allocated between handicap and regular slots? Hard problem.


Overall, the area around my house is probably getting close to the 3-4% range these days. It's just my parking garage (and probably a lot of Microsoft garages) that are closer to 5%. I live 4 miles from work, so my area probably also has a bit higher EV population that the greater Seattle metro area in general.

This Walgreens is never so busy that it's parking lot (it has a section that's obviously intended for Walgreens customers) is ever full. The drive-thru gets a line, but the parking lot never seems to be more than half full. I believe there are two charging stations there. They are conveniently located near the entrance in front of the Redbox - probably because that meant a minimum amount of demo to run power. I occasionally see an ICE car parked in those slots, but that seems to occur when someone wants to use the Redbox and the regular slots next to the EV slots are full ... but those cars tend to come and go quickly. Generally I don't think there is much contention there, at least not yet.

Another data point might be the Bellevue Town Center Mall, which isn't far away. It's a large, sprawling mall. Very popular here. They have a large, free 5-story parking garage. Parking on the first floor is (mostly) reserved. One side is valet parking, the other is EV parking. The EV parking isn't that convenient because most of the mall access is on the 2nd and 3rd floors. There are always at least a couple of Teslas parked there even when the mall isn't busy. However it does sometimes fill up especially on Friday and Saturday nights along with the rest of the garage because of the cinema.

I have once or twice seen a big pickup truck park length-wise in some of those slots - obviously intending to block access to the slots - but there were still free spots so they were mostly just being annoying and not really inconveniencing anyone. (BTW, I think I've heard that intentionally blocking EV charging slots like that is a ticket-able and tow-able offense; but I've never seen anyone towed for it.)

- Joel
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Time is money and life. Imagine being in the path of a natural disaster and you're trying to move your expensive virtue signaling greenwash mobile to a place hundreds of miles away.

The superchargers are offline maybe.

Or maybe, they are open:

https://twitter.com/zomgapocalypse/status/118487957829840896...
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I suppose that would be me in the fact-free imbecile department. I don't see any connection between one's choice of transportation and retirement. My car purchases don't affect my net worth all that much. But I buy Fords, Chevy, etc. But a Tesla wouldn't change that very much. Now, an Aston Martin or a Lambo ...

I see you as just anther Tesla zealot, preaching your religion.

CNC




He's preaching his book, CNC.

His lips are red from hogging the Kool-Aid punchbowl.

This is the guy who slipped and told the entire METAR board that he is invested 100% in TSLA a year or so ago.
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Rayvt: When we bought it, we got a 1.99% 5 year loan (Capital One, via the dealer's finance guy). At a time when Capital One web site's best rate was 3.25%. I can't bear the thought of giving up that 1.99% rate so we are probably going to stick with this car for the whole 5 years.

Piker! When we got our 2016 Ford Escape, I wasn't able to resist the 0% interest, no down payment. Still hate monthly payments.

CNC
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V:That being said, I'm waiting until Toyota has a Hybrid 4WD Tacoma, then I might buy new. Our next car will probably be a Prius Prime plug in Hybrid."

With a Prius that gets 50 mpg, a plug in one, other than in La-la land,probably would save you all of $6/month in gas. Unless you drive a lot.


I'm not worried about the 6$ - I just want one. I like the idea of 120MPGe.

V
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You still do not get it. None of the things you mention make the least bit of difference to me and are not motivators for me in my car buying decision. These things are clearly motivators for you and probably other folks, but there are a lot of folks like me for whom your examples make absolutely no difference.

There’s nothing wrong with that. It simply means that your decision criteria differs from mine. Doesn’t make either of us wrong no matter how much you try to clarify or persuade. It just makes us different.
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"It just makes us different. "

***********************************

Bravo!

Howie52
Or should I say "Viva!"
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You still do not get it. None of the things you mention make the least bit of difference to me and are not motivators for me in my car buying decision.

I guess I don't. But what you are saying is that nothing about your surroundings contributes to your quality of life. Seems extremely unusual to me. It's really not possible that you are in one mode when you are in a car and completely different when you aren't.

So I have to interpret what you are saying is that you would just as happily live in a military barracks as in your own home. Me, I'm not that utilitarian. Either that or you somehow consider cars special and you exist in a completely different way when you are in or around them.

So, really, you don't care whether you are breathing smoke or not? You don't care if you are comfortable or not? You don't care if you are breathing gasoline fumes or not? You don't care if you are in a quiet environment where you can converse or not? You don't care whether you get soaked walking to your car or it comes to you?

That seems like an awful lot of not caring. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

-IGU-
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I guess I don't. But what you are saying is that nothing about your surroundings contributes to your quality of life. Seems extremely unusual to me. It's really not possible that you are in one mode when you are in a car and completely different when you aren't.

So I have to interpret what you are saying is that you would just as happily live in a military barracks as in your own home. Me, I'm not that utilitarian. Either that or you somehow consider cars special and you exist in a completely different way when you are in or around them.

So, really, you don't care whether you are breathing smoke or not? You don't care if you are comfortable or not? You don't care if you are breathing gasoline fumes or not? You don't care if you are in a quiet environment where you can converse or not? You don't care whether you get soaked walking to your car or it comes to you?

That seems like an awful lot of not caring. Not that there's anything wrong with that.



What she is saying is that we all have different priorities in life. It is arrogant to project your priorities onto another person and say my priorities should be your priorities.

Everything you mentioned about cars is not her priority. Now having known her for many years, I doubt she would happily live in a military barracks. She loves to cook. I don't know if the color of the cabinets or countertop is a priority but the layout of the kitchen would be a high priority to her.

On of my MIL's priorities is to not go out in public without nice clothing and her hair and makeup looking good. She needs to prep her appearance to go to the grocery store. It isn't my priority. It's not rare that I'm working in the yard all sweaty and dirty when I realize I need something from Home Depot. I'll just get in my vehicle, go into the store and buy what I need without any care of my appearance.

PSU
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What she is saying is that we all have different priorities in life.

I absolutely agree about priorities. But what she wrote was "None of the things you mention make the least bit of difference to me..." which is much stronger than saying that they aren't a priority.

-IGU-
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I absolutely agree about priorities. But what she wrote was "None of the things you mention make the least bit of difference to me..." which is much stronger than saying that they aren't a priority.

Would it have been better for you if she said "those things you mention are #19,237 on my list of priorities which basically means none of it makes the least bit of difference".
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Oh my, 129 posts and still he hasn’t persuaded or guilted or shamed any of us to go get a Tesla. It’s about time he learned he can’t change anybody’s mind by talking about it to death, especially with retirees or those who want to be retired.

Lucky Dog
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Oh my, 129 posts and still he hasn’t persuaded or guilted or shamed any of us to go get a Tesla. It’s about time he learned he can’t change anybody’s mind by talking about it to death, especially with retirees or those who want to be retired.

Only a few of those posts are mine. And I haven't tried to guilt or shame anybody into anything -- that is strictly your imagination. All I've been doing is explaining that a Tesla Model 3 is cheaper and better (in many ways) than any similar car you might buy. And retirees probably ought to care more about cheaper and better than most people.

As opposed to most of those who have been denying what I've said, I'm speaking from experience and referencing actual data. I have to admit I'm once again surprised by the amount of willful blindness when it comes to anything new and different.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised though. People always think the world is going to continue on exactly as it has.

But I think I'm done now. I'm clearly wasting my time and this isn't really on topic anyway. Any more than explaining to y'all how you might want to move on from rotary dial phones to those newfangled things that have built-in cameras and flashlights.

-IGU-
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LuckyDog2002,

You wrote,
Oh my, 129 posts and still he hasn’t persuaded or guilted or shamed any of us to go get a Tesla. It’s about time he learned he can’t change anybody’s mind by talking about it to death, especially with retirees or those who want to be retired.


Going electric is nice, especially with the added performance, but I'm not willing to pay a lot extra for those things. I'll pay a bit extra because electric will save on operating costs, not just for power but maintenance as well since there are few moving parts to lube and wear out. But I'm not really willing to pay out much extra just to "save the planet" for the next generation. Besides sticking with my 2006 Accord just feels more environmentally friendly than going out and buying a new car when the fabrication of that new car pollutes - especially since I only put about 6-7,000 miles/year on a car these days.

Actually I'd love to go out and buy a Model 3 today ... except that if I'm going to fork over a bunch of money, the car really better be self-driving. That's what I'm willing to pay extra for - a vehicle that I can get into and tell it where to go and then take a nap while it deals with the traffic. A car that can do that reliably is worth an extra $10K - $15K to me, easily. But Tesla still isn't there yet. In fact I'm not sure they are going to be the first to get there. They are well on their way ... but these types of engineering problems tend to "have a long tail" ... and anyone could pass them along the way.

- Joel
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Well, IGU may be in trouble in a year with his 3 year old Tesla

- - -

"According to recent reports, some Tesla cars are spontaneously “bricking,” Silicon Valley slang for being left completely useless, due to embedded flash memory burning out. The problem leaves the cars unable to charge and has appeared in vehicles that are four years old.

Vice News reports that some older Tesla cars are facing issues with their onboard flash memory, resulting in the car’s computer system bricking itself according to three independent Tesla repair professionals. The issue arises with the cars’ eMMC chip which is embedded on a board called MCU1; two experts who have studied the issue claim that the Tesla vehicle writes memory to these chips so often that they eventually go bad."

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2019/10/17/burned-out-flash-m...

At 4 years, the car dies. No aftermarket parts so you might wait 3 months for Tesla to get around to making one...or waiting for a wrecked Tesla to get a second hand part from the totaled Tesla.

One of biggest complaints is the cars spend a lot of time in the shop waiting for parts - sometimes 2 months..

I hate to think what is going to happen at 6 and 8 years....and at 10 years, Tesla might simply stop making spare parts for them. Most US manufacturers only agree to supply replacement parts from the last production run of a model of car. After market folks make parts forever. But Tesla doesn't allow after market products be made or used.


t.

.
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Some early Tesla models are spontaneously malfunctioning and could cost owners more than $1,800 to repair.

The issue stems from a worn-out flash memory chip embedded in the Multi-Media Controller board that activates the control screen and executes most functions.

This is happening in vehicles about four years old and older for Model X and S vehicles, which first came out in 2012.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7585261/Old-...

Problem now is going viral.

well, you saved $300 on gas. Now you get to do a $1800 repair - out of warranty of course, so it is your nickels you have to fork out.


t.
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It’s about time he learned

It's about time (Actually long past time) that I FA this thread. Long past boring.

CNC
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Oh my, 129 posts and still he hasn’t persuaded or guilted or shamed any of us to go get a Tesla. It’s about time he learned he can’t change anybody’s mind by talking about it to death, especially with retirees or those who want to be retired.

Lucky Dog "

**************************************************************

Oh, I don't know.
I have started giving serious thought to buying a package of AA batteries.

Howie52
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" It’s about time he learned

It's about time (Actually long past time) that I FA this thread. Long past boring.

CNC "

*********************************************************

Patience is a virtue.

Ergo, virtual patience must be a virtual virtue.

And who would argue against virtual virtues?

Howie52
All threads end when people stop having thoughts. Some evolve into
wonderful things - some do not.

But you do have the choice of just not looking or starting another thread - or both!
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Or do we want to get a new car every 5-7 years, so that we always are in a relatively new and up-to-date car?

As my wife continually points out, if *we* don't spend our money on things like new cars, round-the-world cruises, etc. then our kids will ... after we die.


<shrug> Some people value cars, some people value other stuff. I’ve always driven my cars a long time. My Scion will be 10 years old next month, and I love that car. It may not have all the bells and whistles of the Cadillac I rented for a recent trip, but it gets me where I need to go. When I need to, I’ll replace it.
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139 posts in this thread ... really?
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139 posts in this thread ... really?

The thread would be a lot shorter if the people complaining about it just ignored it. <LOL>

intercst
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139 posts in this thread ... really? - tamhas

----------------

More like 140....
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Piker! When we got our 2016 Ford Escape, I wasn't able to resist the 0% interest, no down payment. Still hate monthly payments.

Yeah, well those 0% loans are not really a 0% loan, because they come from the manufacturer. It's just a way of shuffling the price of the car around. They are just burying the interest into the price of the car.

A loan from a bank is a real loan.

Not only did we get no down payment, but we had them roll the tax and state fees into the loan. We literally did not bring our checkbook or cash along with us to the dealer.

It was kind of amusing when we were leaving. A young couple with small child was coming in the door with a salesman, from a test drive, and we heard him ask them "What monthly payment are you looking for?"
I didn't realize that they still used those sales techniques anymore. Because we had never had that pulled on us for the last dozen times we bought a car. Guess the way we come across, they know it wouldn't work, so they don't try.

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Thanks to telegraph for prompting me to make my decision for how long to keep our car(s) now. Spark plugs: last forever. Points & condenser: What are those? Antifreeze: I still remember changing it every year. Last car, after a few years I looked and looked in the owners manual and it DID NOT SAY how often it needed to be changed. Googling around, it appears 5 years or so. Battery: lasts 3-5 years.

Therefore: 5 years. We'll get a new car when this one is 5 years old. It should still have a decent trade-in value. Maybe I can sell it to a guy who likes to buy 5 year old cars.
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It's about time (Actually long past time) that I FA this thread. Long past boring.

Why do you have such self-importance that you think you should determine what we can read? If you are bored, ignore the thread.

PSU
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"It's about time (Actually long past time) that I FA