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This hand is pretty funny. The only thing I really considered doing differently though is cr the turn to protect my pair. But seriously, does anyone play this differently?


AP, blah blah, bunch of unknowns.

Dealt to ENGINE_BLOCK [9h 5d]
MKULTR4 - Raises $10 to $10
WILLTAKECASH - Calls $10
MOSQUITO93 - Folds
BIGSCORPIO - Calls $10
FRYBABY - Calls $7
ENGINE_BLOCK - Calls $5

*** FLOP *** [4h 7d 6h]
FRYBABY - Checks
ENGINE_BLOCK - Checks
MKULTR4 - Checks
WILLTAKECASH - Checks
BIGSCORPIO - Bets $5
FRYBABY - Calls $5
ENGINE_BLOCK - Calls $5
MKULTR4 - Folds
WILLTAKECASH - Calls $5

*** TURN *** [4h 7d 6h] [5s]
FRYBABY - Checks
ENGINE_BLOCK - Checks
WILLTAKECASH - Checks
BIGSCORPIO - Bets $10
FRYBABY - Folds
ENGINE_BLOCK - Calls $10
WILLTAKECASH - Folds

*** RIVER *** [4h 7d 6h 5s] [10s]
ENGINE_BLOCK - Checks
BIGSCORPIO - Checks

[I win]
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Unless this is a friendly home game where I'm way up and need to dump back some profit so as not to annoy my buddies I'd probably fold to the pre-flop raise.
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But seriously, does anyone play this differently

I'm pretty sure, regardless of site or level, it's going to be very difficult to turn a profit playing hands like 95o out of position, even getting huge odds on the pre-flop call.

On the flop, I suppose check calling is okay, but I might be tempted to check raise at least to lose Willtakecash. Assuming the other 2 call, you're getting close to the right price for it and if you can knock somebody out it's probably a good thing given the weakness of your hand.

meh...I guess it just upsets me to see that a player whose game I respected has become such a weak passive calling station. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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I'm pretty sure, regardless of site or level, it's going to be very difficult to turn a profit playing hands like 95o out of position, even getting huge odds on the pre-flop call.

9:1 I'm very nearly getting direct odds to flop huge, and I am certainly getting implied odds to do so, and this doesn't even consider that the deck is very likely stacked toward my range. Plus implied tilt odds when 95 turns third pair and beats four players out of a big pot.

On the flop, I suppose check calling is okay, but I might be tempted to check raise at least to lose Willtakecash

I don't want to lose anyone on the flop.

meh...I guess it just upsets me to see that a player whose game I respected has become such a weak passive calling station.

In retrospect I really think I should have cr the turn. It didn't end up mattering much but I think that my pair has enough direct equity at that point and the pot is large enough that I really want to clean up my outs. Also cr has some possibility of folding out hands that beat me, considering board is four-straighted
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I dunno about the PF call. Vs. unknowns I probably don't make it. Home game, I might just for the laugh value if I win.

Cr the turn doesn't seem terrible.

Honestly, I might bet that river. I think you're almost definitely best when he checks, and if he calls you get an extra bet and if he folds you don't have to show down your crap...two good results.

- C -
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Fold preflop. Your implied odds are more than counteracted by your negative implied odds on a 9-high flop or something similar. Heads-up you may have a call depending on position of the raiser and his PFR.
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Honestly, I might bet that river.

I think betting the river is -EV here. Nobody is calling you with A-high here. A4 and 22 are the only hands that might pay off a river bet, but those hands are about the same as A-high against your range. Meanwhile you get called by any pair higher than yours, and even A5 probably calls.
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Dear sir,

WTF is going on here!? What kool-aid have you been drinking now?

Preflop this is a clear fold, not even close. Although calling here is maybe a fraction of a BB -EV, this is a systematic leak with many opportunities to make the same sort of mistake. Preflop is totally horrible. I also thought this following paragraph was some sort of sick level, but it appears you are serious?!

9:1 I'm very nearly getting direct odds to flop huge, and I am certainly getting implied odds to do so, and this doesn't even consider that the deck is very likely stacked toward my range. Plus implied tilt odds when 95 turns third pair and beats four players out of a big pot.

¿+bm
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I think betting the river is -EV here.

I need to read more closely...

1) I forgot patch was oop.
2) I thought villain was the PFR.

Yeah, betting out no goot. If it's checked in front of him by the PFR, I like a bet more.

- C -
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Although calling here is maybe a fraction of a BB -EV, this is a systematic leak with many opportunities to make the same sort of mistake.

Uh, no. Even if this is a fractional leak, I probably get an opportunity to see a flop 9:1 (or better) no more often than once every 2000-3000 hands. Anyway, I won so my play obviously was correct.
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9:1 I'm very nearly getting direct odds to flop huge, and I am certainly getting implied odds to do so

Implied odds and direct odds are of opposite signs in this case. And in absolute magnitude, direct odds < implied odds. (Since implied odds are negative, that's BAD!)

I'm about 99% sure you just misspoke here, maybe due to sniper fire (I haven't been to Detroit lately, so I'm not sure how bad conditions are there).
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Implied odds and direct odds are of opposite signs in this case.

I'm about 99% sure you just misspoke here,


No. As I see things, implied odds are positive. Stoving this hand is somewhat complicated, but in a few trials I come up with 95o having about 12.5% equity which is plenty to call preflop. Does anyone seriously think I won't be able to escape an unfavorable spot? I certainly agree that the preflop call is thin and I have no problem with the idea of folding here instead, but sacrificing equity is sacrificing equity.

I haven't been to Detroit lately, so I'm not sure how bad conditions are there

Quiet. Everyone is glued to the tv to see what the thug mayor is going to do next.
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Does anyone seriously think I won't be able to escape an unfavorable spot?

<raising hand>

Clearly we are using different definitions of implied odds. Let's say the other guy bets the river instead of checking behind. You are calling and expecting to lose, right? That's negative implied odds in my definition.

(Hell, he checked and you expected to lose!)

Note, it's not that I don't think you can't escape an unfavorable spot, it's the nature of 95o. Maybe the negative implied odds there are -1 BB for a bad player and -.5 for a good player, but they're negative either way.
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Let's say the other guy bets the river instead of checking behind. You are calling and expecting to lose, right? That's negative implied odds in my definition.

Also, the fact that you checked the river is another indication of negative implied odds. I mean, this is not a 100% accurate reflection of implied odds but generally speaking you bet/raise a positive implied odds hand on the river (set or better) and often check/call a negative implied odds hand (one pair).
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I question your assumptions. For example,

Also, the fact that you checked the river is another indication of negative implied odds.

is based on a sample size of one hand, a hand where I can probably never get value by betting. Implied odds aren't measured by whether you bet or check anyhow. They are measured by the future value you will be able to extract when a percentage play hits. I really don't have to explain this to you since I know you already understand it.
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Also, the fact that you checked the river is another indication of negative implied odds.

is based on a sample size of one hand, a hand where I can probably never get value by betting.


OK, out of 100 hands, how often do you expect to value bet 95o on the river?


To be more precise, as I understand it, implied odds here are basically your EV from the flop, turn, and river betting (you close the betting pre-flop so we can ignore that in this case). EXCLUDING pre-flop money in the pot.

I don't know if the best player in the world is going to be +EV for the sum of flop, turn, and river betting in this particular case.


Also, implied odds have to sum to zero over all players in a hand. If 95o has positive implied odds, what hand has negative implied odds? I'll grant that QJ in a particular spot could easily have positive implied odds for a good player and negative implied odds for a bad player, but man, that is one hell of a good game if 95o has positive implied odds for you.
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They are measured by the future value you will be able to extract when a percentage play hits.

Yeah, but it also includes stuff like paying to draw and folding when you miss. Or calling down with a losing hand. It's for everything that happens post-flop, not just the good things.
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Yeah, but it also includes stuff like paying to draw and folding when you miss

No it doesn't.

OK, out of 100 hands, how often do you expect to value bet 95o on the river?

irrelevant.

Also, implied odds have to sum to zero over all players in a hand.

No they don't. Implied odds are the measure of your current decision against the expected future pot size. They are pretty much the same for everyone. What you are trying to argue is not some zero sum game, but rather whether the implied odds offered by the pot justifies the current decision. The reason I think 95 is playable in this spot is two fold; one already mentioned, that the deck should be weighted toward my range, the second that I believe I can outplay my opponents post flop. In this case, for the price of 1sb I was able to get my opponents to contribute 5sb to the pot post flop when I had the greatest equity edge. I think I made a pretty significant mistake not cr the turn but that may be ROT as well, since my remaining opponent was on a six out draw.

What is the bottom range of playable hands getting 9:1 closing the action if 95o isn't there? According to stove, 95o is right at the 22nd percentile in hand ranking, just behind T5o and just ahead of J3o, and still ahead of 64o, 54o and three suited hands. Personally I would rather have 95o than T5o or J3o, and would likely fold either of those hands, but I certainly can see the argument for playing all or none of them. 9:1 is big. We don't often get propositions like that preflop in poker, and when we do we usually are looking at 15:1 or 20:1 implied odds. I'm not sure it is ever justifiable to pass on that offer, although I certainly would - and do - with some holdings.
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You said this was on AP? This all makes sense if you have super user powers. Otherwise, fold pre-flop.
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Implied odds are the measure of your current decision against the expected future pot size.

Right, I just realized what I'm actually talking about is implied odds net of direct odds. That is just how I prefer to think about it. But obv I should call it something else. "Future odds"?

But you are wrong about everything else. Or some kind of super-genius at playing 95o post-flop.
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you are ... some kind of super-genius at playing 95o post-flop.

True.
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Right, I just realized what I'm actually talking about is implied odds net of direct odds. That is just how I prefer to think about it. But obv I should call it something else. "Future odds"?

It doesn't really matter honestly. Patch could have 12.5% odds and everyone could have a percentage that adds up to 100% and everyone has positive equity with that here, cause there's already money in the pot.

- C -
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It doesn't really matter honestly. Patch could have 12.5% odds and everyone could have a percentage that adds up to 100% and everyone has positive equity with that here, cause there's already money in the pot.

Right, that's why I tend to mentally divide between direct odds and future odds (or net implied odds). With blinds/ante's the direct odds are never zero sum. I was just noting that future odds ARE zero sum when you consider them net of direct odds.

That's all I'm trying to say here. You have +EV in terms of direct odds. If you set up the game to have no betting post-flop, then 95o calls because it covers the direct odds fairly easily. But anyone who is saying to fold pre-flop here, is saying that this hand is -EV for the flop to river. The question is if it's +EV enough pre-flop to overcome the -EV post-flop.

Man, I hate myself when I talk like this but I don't know how else to do it.
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The thing about justifying a pf call with 95 seems to me to be a lot the players that don't understand the problems with hands like AQ and KQ. Sure, there are times when you hit big but you lose so much money when dominated, it makes them tricky hands to play and almost always overvalued. Same can be true of a hand like 95o with 9:1 odds to call.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do it, but I don't think it is in the top 80% of poker I play.

Funk
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BTW, I think 95s is an easy call PF.
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4-5-6-7 turn, I would CR there.

Not only might Villains be drawing dead, you might already have str8 and be freerolling for flush/SF.



Nice to see you back in 'Patch Classic' mode!
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