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Here's a question for you:
Why is it necessary to pledge allegiance to the flag over and over and over again? Doesn't it “take” the first time? Do people think you were kidding when you did it once? Does it “wear off” during the time since you recited it last such that you have to constantly renew it?

People only have to swear an oath of loyalty a single time when they become citizens of the United States. That one, apparently, is good for the rest of their lives. Why not the pledge of allegiance to the flag?

And why do we pledge allegiance to something no one can define in the first place? We are the only country in the world that does this.

If you remain seated while others are standing up – mindlessly repeating something they have mindlessly repeated thousands of times during their lives – you will be thought unpatriotic. Why?

If you pledged once – and meant it when you did it – why is it unpatriotic to refuse to turn it into no more than some kind of traditional, meaningless ritual by mouthing the words with eyes glazed over for the umpteenth time in your life?

Why?

AM
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And why do we pledge allegiance to something no one can define in the first place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegiance
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And why do we pledge allegiance to something no one can define in the first place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegiance



And this answers all of my questions, how?

AM
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I am with you on this one. It does seem very odd to repeat it so often. Certainly it loses its meaning in doing so.

Perhaps once at the beginning of the school year instead of every day.
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And this answers all of my questions, how?

It doesn't. It answers a specific question, you asked and I quoted:
"And why do we pledge allegiance to something no one can define in the first place?"

This gives you the history of the pledge, when it was instituted, when it was changed, and reasonings of those times.

If I had thought it answered ALL of your questions I would have quoted all of your questions.

If I run across answers to your other questions I'll consider replying if your asking honest questions and honestly want answers.
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If you pledged once – and meant it when you did it – why is it unpatriotic to refuse to turn it into no more than some kind of traditional, meaningless ritual by mouthing the words with eyes glazed over for the umpteenth time in your life?

Sinner, for your heresy, recite ten Hail Marys.

--FY
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There is no way I can pledge alligiance to a piece of cloth. Reminds me of the fanatic types that are willing to kill anyone that doesn't honor their religious books in the same way they do.

I have, however, signed a loyalty oath where I promised to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

There's a lot of them domestic ones right now, so I better keep busy keeping my promise.

Impeach Bush/Cheney/Rummy/Condi.
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"If you pledged once – and meant it when you did it – why is it unpatriotic to refuse to turn it into no more than some kind of traditional, meaningless ritual by mouthing the words with eyes glazed over for the umpteenth time in your life?"

<delurk>

People Pledge because they choose to. Maybe they enjoy the tradition. Maybe they feel obligated. Maybe it makes them feel like they are a part of something. If you don't feel that way, don't choose to participate. I'm a believer of free speech and will respect your decision. This is America after all. Pardon me if I don't take up your crusade though. I personally feel there are bigger things to worry about these days...

dh

<relurk>
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Sinner, for your heresy, recite ten Hail Marys.

If you recite it once, and really mean it, why do you have to recite nine more Hail Marys?


:)


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There is no way I can pledge alligiance to a piece of cloth. Reminds me of the fanatic types that are willing to kill anyone that doesn't honor their religious books in the same way they do.

Right. Normal causal connection there.
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There is no way I can pledge alligiance to a piece of cloth. Reminds me of the fanatic types that are willing to kill anyone that doesn't honor their religious books in the same way they do.

Right. Normal causal connection there.


I know. That was indeed a pretty big, stupid jump to put into one line. But, the pledge goes a little farther than just a voluntary show of respect for the flag. Kids in school really do not have a choice, and even adults may feel the pressure to submit at a baseball game, etc.

The original flag salute made many uncomfortable.

The initial military salute was soon replaced with a hand-on-heart gesture, followed by the extension of the arm as described by Bellamy. Because of the similarity of this part of the salute to the Hitler salute, and the later Supreme Court ruling in West Virginia v. Barnette which unfavorably compared compulsory recitation of the pledge to Nazi and Communist totalitarianism, the Bellamy salute was replaced in 1942 with the modern gesture of placing the hand over the heart without raising the arm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

Then it gets me thinking about fanatics that obsess about not letting the flag touch the ground, etc., and bible thumpers, then koran thumpers that actual do kill people for disrespecting the koran.

Yes, it's a big jump. Sorry. But still makes me uncomfortable.
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<<<>>>>
Why is it necessary to pledge allegiance to the flag over and over and over again? Doesn't it “take” the first time? Do people think you were kidding when you did it once? Does it “wear off” during the time since you recited it last such that you have to constantly renew it?
<>
If you remain seated while others are standing up – mindlessly repeating something they have mindlessly repeated thousands of times during their lives – you will be thought unpatriotic. Why?

If you pledged once – and meant it when you did it – why is it unpatriotic to refuse to turn it into no more than some kind of traditional, meaningless ritual by mouthing the words with eyes glazed over for the umpteenth time in your life?

Why?
<<<<
>>>>>

it's a prayer.

you say grace after every mean, don't you?
you say you "Now I lay me down to Sleep..." every morning ...don't you??

same kind of thing --Patriotism is a slightly less rational, slightly more dangerous, significantly more social form of Religion.

You have to say the Pledge regularly and publicly to prove you haven't ,in the past several days, become a godless heathen commie evil-doer.



=
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We do it for the young for indoctrination purposes. That is not necessarily bad thing.

j
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AngelMay says

Why is it necessary to pledge allegiance to the flag over and over and over again? Doesn't it “take” the first time? Do people think you were kidding when you did it once? Does it “wear off” during the time since you recited it last such that you have to constantly renew it?

The first time I had to recite the Pledge was in second grade. It didn't even have "under God" in it yet, but that was OK, we also had to recite the Lord's Prayer. And sing "Oh Maryland, my Maryland," and "America the Beautiful."

I didn't mind the songs. The prayer was just an exercise in being humiliated by people more powerful than I was.

But the Pledge, now that was something else. Allegiance to the flag, wow. I understood allegiance to my family, and maybe I sort of understood allegiance to the country. But to a flag? A FLAG??? Every day before the rest of the day could even begin? At seven, I couldn't really express it, but I think I did understand how deeply sick that was.


You see my kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its office holders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from Winter, disease, and death. To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rages - that is loyalty to unreason; it is pure animal; it belongs to monarchy, was invented by monarchy; let monarchy keep it.

-- Mark Twain



crassfool
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<i.Why is it necessary to pledge allegiance to the flag over and over and over again?

For much the same reason that I tell my wife "I love you" every morning, night, and several times in between. It makes me feel good and she loves to hear me tell her how much she means in my life.
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she loves to hear me tell her how much she means in my life.


But the flag just lays there......


Jim
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it's a prayer.

you say grace after every mean, don't you?
you say you "Now I lay me down to Sleep..." every morning ...don't you??

same kind of thing --Patriotism is a slightly less rational, slightly more dangerous, significantly more social form of Religion.

You have to say the Pledge regularly and publicly to prove you haven't ,in the past several days, become a godless heathen commie evil-doer.




That's "Eva-doer", silly. ;o)

And when you have to recite something "regularly", like some self-deprecating religious liturgy, it becomes totally meaningless.

What is the point of standing up at the beginning of every political meeting or school class (for two examples) and mouthing a totally meaningless "pledge" to an object that the government cannot even define? ... To an object that the (current) government thinks so little of that they would make it a crime to burn it in protest? If it means that little, why pledge to it at all? What is the point?

At what point, once you have recited this pledge, does your pledge wear off? How long should the pledge last before you have to pledge again? Why is no one up-in-arms that their pledging is now so suspect wrt sincerity that they have to take it again? And again? And again?

Are people who don't pledge to the flag over and over again unpatriotic? If so, how? Why?

Am I the only person in America who has ever wondered about this?

AM
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We do it for the young for indoctrination purposes. That is not necessarily bad thing.

j



Indoctrinating them into what?
How is it a good thing?
How is it not a bag thing?
Teaching children to think for themselves is a good thing.
Teaching children to automatically knee-jerk is suspect, imo.

AM
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For much the same reason that I tell my wife "I love you" every morning, night, and several times in between. It makes me feel good and she loves to hear me tell her how much she means in my life.




So you are saying that the flag feels good when you tell it how much it means in your life?


AM
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"If you remain seated while others are standing up – mindlessly repeating something they have mindlessly repeated thousands of times during their lives – you will be thought unpatriotic. Why?"

If you aren't happy with the simple practice of standing for about 45 seconds every so often to respect the flag that represents the freedoms we all share in this great nation, you are certainly free not to do so. You are also free to choose another place to live where you will not be forced to participate in this onerous, repetitive burden. I respect whatever choice you make.
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"If you remain seated while others are standing up – mindlessly repeating something they have mindlessly repeated thousands of times during their lives – you will be thought unpatriotic. Why?"

It's kind of how I feel when I don't stand during the 7th inning strech. Why do I have to do it? When I don't, all the drunks around me say, "hey man, why don't you stand up." Why? Please, answer me, why?
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If you aren't happy with the simple practice of standing for about 45 seconds every so often to respect the flag that represents the freedoms we all share in this great nation, you are certainly free not to do so.

Great. I'm not into ritualistic mindless pandering, and you are convincing evidence that it's not healthy. Most religions warn again idolatry, because it creates habits that harden the mind against reason.

In any case, NOT doing so is just as much a gesture of respect for those freedoms as doing so.

You are also free to choose another place to live where you will not be forced to participate in this onerous, repetitive burden.

How predictable. Maybe you'd like to move to some other place where regular devotive practice is "encouraged"...like Saudi Arabia.
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People Pledge because they choose to.

A freind of mine's son in Florida got in a spat with his teacher because he refused to stand up for the PLedge of Allegiance.

The teacher contacted his mom and she asked the 13-year old what it was about.

He replied that it was HIS way of protesting against "this president who's ruining our country."

She replied to the teacher: "if he is disrupting the class, by all means discipline him in a manner fit, but if he is just protesting, that's his right and I don't see anything wrong with it."

The teacher responded that in his view, the boy should show respect for the flag and the federal government, which has been so generous and given so much to the State of Florida in the wake of the hurricanes.

I found that inane.

The boy has the right to refuse to stand up.
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"Maybe you'd like to move to some other place where regular devotive practice is "encouraged"...like Saudi Arabia."

I'm perfectly happy here with our own onerous rituals - I'm not going anywhere.
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"The boy has the right to refuse to stand up."

That boy and his Mom don't know how good they've got it.
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"The boy has the right to refuse to stand up."

That boy and his Mom don't know how good they've got it.




Yes.....
The government that merely puts braces on your brain is MUCH better than the one that shoves bamboo shoots under your fingernails.

AM
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"The government that merely puts braces on your brain is MUCH better than the one that shoves bamboo shoots under your fingernails."

??? - Huh? Can you 'splain that one a bit?
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"The government that merely puts braces on your brain is MUCH better than the one that shoves bamboo shoots under your fingernails."

??? - Huh? Can you 'splain that one a bit?

-----

Equates government subordination of its subjects by mind control (ala 1984) or by blatant torture. Pick your poison.


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"Equates government subordination of its subjects by mind control (ala 1984) or by blatant torture. Pick your poison."

Oh . . . that's right . . . I forgot . . . the Government planted a chip in my brain a few months back. I was wondering what that was for.
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That boy and his Mom don't know how good they've got it.

That's a dumb argument.

That's what the right wing in this country keeps bleating. You should be so grateful about having the right to free speech that you shouldn't express it.
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Oh . . . that's right . . . I forgot . . . the Government planted a chip in my brain a few months back. I was wondering what that was for.
-----

Chip? I take it you've never read '1984'?
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"Chip? I take it you've never read '1984'?"

They do it differently these days.
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"You should be so grateful about having the right to free speech that you shouldn't express it."

Nobody ever took away my right to free speech.
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"That's a dumb argument."

Are you saying they don't have it good here? Do you really believe that? I'm curious?
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And when you have to recite something "regularly", like some self-deprecating religious liturgy, it becomes totally meaningless.


yup.


What is the point of standing up at the beginning of every political meeting or school class (for two examples) and mouthing a totally meaningless "pledge" to an object that the government cannot even define? ... To an object that the (current) government thinks so little of that they would make it a crime to burn it in protest? If it means that little, why pledge to it at all? What is the point?


it's a social thing. a Bonding thing.
you go to church, say a meaningless prayer; hug the person next to you even if you don't like them .... same same.

it's a way of proclaiming, "I'm one of US; not one of THEM (ick!)"


At what point, once you have recited this pledge, does your pledge wear off? How long should the pledge last before you have to pledge again? Why is no one up-in-arms that their pledging is now so suspect wrt sincerity that they have to take it again? And again? And again?

Are people who don't pledge to the flag over and over again unpatriotic? If so, how? Why?

Am I the only person in America who has ever wondered about this?


maybe the only adult still wondering . <G>

i think by 5th grade, the rest of us either decided it was "sick" or decided to never think about it any more.


-b
...... pledge wears off 5.3 hrs after the end of the meeting where you say it.
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-b
...... pledge wears off 5.3 hrs after the end of the meeting where you say it.




Thanks. Now I know. :o)

AM
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Are you saying they don't have it good here?

I assumed he was saying that the former part of the statement was a dumb arguement, the assumption that was made that the mother and child did not know how good they had it here.

It's like telling someone who is eating chocolate pudding that they don't know how good chocolate pudding is. Thier in the midst of eating it, of course they know how good it is. They just might think it could be better with a bit of whip cream.
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"'It's like telling someone who is eating chocolate pudding that they don't know how good chocolate pudding is."

Tapioca for me please.
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