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[i]And it's frozen turtles all the way down again. [/i]

Alright folks. There is not an infinite supply of turtles. Even if it were to turn out that earth was designedbu alpha centurians who were themselves designed by The VorlonsTM who were designed by some doddering old man; the universe is only (about)15 billion years old.

You will eventuially reach the first turtle who was either naturalistically evolved or created by an unknowable supernatural agent who does not need to have its own more complex creator because it represents absolute complexity (or perhaps infinite simplicity [afterall does not infinity double back on itself just like the number 8]) and otherwise exists outside the confines of the explorable universe anyway.

If that first turtle got lonley and created a second turtle for company and they created more turtles between them, the progression can only go from the big bang to the present (perhaps humans create the next turtle and it is ...SKYNET ;-)s). A fininte progression.

Science must either eventually positivly conclude that entirely naturalistic causes resulted in the first lonley turtle or else that something beyond science's capacity to study did it.

If the first turtle turns out not to have been naturalisticaly evolved, then ID can't tell anything more about that creator thany any other discipline can.

All it can do is study whether or not turtle A displays evidence of design or not. They can't even do that if earth is really turtle E. The best that can be done is to show that turtle E displays evidence of having been designed rather that naturalistically evolved.

If a non-naturalistic "First Cause" behind turtle A tat exists outside of the universe/time/space/reality/etc. would be an infinite ...I suppose impulse might be the right word to use... and therefore loop back on itself (the proverbial alpha and omega as it were) being before the big bang and after the big crunch; and consistantly maintaining the cycle; creating one (or more) new turtles whenever all of the old turtles happen to die.
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