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(cross post from PA)

I just finished a course in wireless networking. The technology makes it possible to attach cheap RFI tags to items and then track them using wireless networks. It is currently widely used by hospitals to track expensive equipment and by shippers to track packages.

It occurred to me, if it were required that all guns have a special RFI tag attached, places like schools or shopping malls could easily detect when guns are brought on the premises. There could also be detectors installed in police cars so that the police could detect a weapon when stopping a vehicle. I am sure that there would be a way to attach the tags using a tamper proof method, or at least make them very difficult to thwart. I am sure it would be possible to retrofit existing legal guns with tags. There would need to be a severe penalty for possessing non-tagged firearms.

Using such detection a school could even detect the presence of a firearm before it even enters the building. the school could then sound the alarm and lock down while notifying police for a faster response.

This idea would not infringe on a person's right to keep a gun for hunting or self defense. Law abiding gun owners would not be affected. Of course I can just hear the NRA and the gun nuts shrieking with fury that this idea infringes on their god-given right to execute a sneak attack against unarmed children.

Would this idea stop all violence? No. Would it reduce some instances violence? Yes. Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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occurred to me, if it were required that all guns have a special RFI tag attached, places like schools or shopping malls could easily detect when guns are brought on the premises. There would need to be a severe penalty for possessing non-tagged firearms.



More severe than the penalty for murder?



Law abiding gun owners would not be affected. Of course I can just hear the NRA and the gun nuts shrieking with fury that this idea infringes on their god-given right to execute a sneak attack against unarmed children.




Has any NRA member ever claimed such a right?
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More severe than the penalty for murder?

It is notable that nearly all of these spree killers kill themselves. What sort of penalty do we prescribe to discourage such behavior?


Has any NRA member ever claimed such a right?


True enough. But I guarantee that NRA members will say that a requirement to tag all firearms with RFI tags will infringe on their right to defend themselves from an evil gubmint.

Ask yourself how many school children have been shot by the government.
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ii
True enough. But I guarantee that NRA members will say that a requirement to tag all firearms with RFI tags will infringe on their right to defend themselves from an evil gubmint.


absolutely.
when the helicopters fly over, They will know
which houses have what arms
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Just picking a nit...the police car idea probably won't work. RFID tags have limited read ranges (at least the passive ones do; actually they all do but the passive ones are the shortest). It would work at the schools just as the anti-theft tags work in stores: walk through the sensor gate and it screams.

I don't see how you could retrofit tags in guns. You'd need to find a way to embed them so they cannot be removed. However, a determined person could probably defeat it anyway by wrapping the weapon in a conductive mesh. A Faraday cage. If the sensor's active signal can't get to the passive tag to force it to transmit, the system is defeated.

Not saying your idea is horrible, just that it's not as simple as you implied, nor as difficult to defeat.

A simpler solution would be metal detectors at all school entrances. Trip one of those and it sets off an alarm in the office alerting campus security (who can then check the offending detector to see what's there). Or cameras on the detector locations so if someone is walking in with an AR15 there is no need to send a guard to check, you just call the SWAT team.

1poorguy
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I dunno....gun control seems like it might be technologically dead.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/micwright/100007925/...
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Yeah, probably. However...you still need ammo. Pretty much can't make that yourself (unless you own a lead mine). Put a radioactive tracer in it (either the lead, or maybe the powder in the cartridge, or the brass cartridge itself), and detectors at key sites (e.g. schools). You bring ammo through the doors, the alarms go off.

More specific than metal detectors (which could be set off by a jacket with lots of metal buttons).

1poorguy
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I dunno....gun control seems like it might be technologically dead.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/micwright/100007925/......



This is nonsense. 3D printers produce objects made of material similar to paper mache. If they ever produce a printer that can fabricate parts made from metal alloys you would have a point. Imagine a desktop printer by Dell, complete with crucibles for melting and casting steel, blast furnaces, forges, smoke stacks for venting the fumes, and lathes for the rifling the barrels.

I expect such printers would cost more than the average deranged murderous nut case could afford. But they would be handy when you need a part for your car or a piece of hardware for around the house.
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3D printers produce objects made of material similar to paper mache.

You are way out of date. I have seen one making objects out of a PVC material. It is not that much different to make them out of harder plastics, or possibly even ceramics (I'm not sure of that one). At least some Glocks are made from plastic components.

It's quite feasible.
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A simpler solution would be metal detectors at all school entrances.

Notebook binders, laptops, cellphones, have large metal profiles.

How do schools deal with that stuff these days?

Inner city school kids sneak contraband under the fences.

"Nice" communities with open campuses probably don't want to take on the fortress mentality.

Who wants to buy a safe for their guns and ammo.

Who wants their mental health profile cross-referenced to gun/ammo purchases? You can't get drivers and pilots licenses without meeeting physical and mental health health standards.

Or will the nation just grieve for a few days and move along?
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You are way out of date. I have seen one making objects out of a PVC material. It is not that much different to make them out of harder plastics, or possibly even ceramics (I'm not sure of that one). At least some Glocks are made from plastic components.

Glocks have a steel barrel, steel slide and other steel components. They set off metal detectors.
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Notebook binders, laptops, cellphones, have large metal profiles.

How do schools deal with that stuff these days?

Inner city school kids sneak contraband under the fences.


Sure. At best it will stop the outsider from coming in. Though I like my radioactive tracer idea better anyway.

Who wants their mental health profile cross-referenced to gun/ammo purchases? You can't get drivers and pilots licenses without meeeting physical and mental health health standards.

Because those aren't rights, they're privileges. Different dynamic. (albaby will slap me around if I am in error, I'm sure!)

Or will the nation just grieve for a few days and move along?

Probably. Politicians are far more afraid of the NRA than of a few distraught voters. Plus there 2nd Amendment is there. Plus a lot of voters don't want anything done/changed, despite Aurora and Columbine and this (and many others). That's just the reality. Guns are here to stay, and with very few restrictions.
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Because those aren't rights, they're privileges. Different dynamic.

This is one of those ideas that's hard for me to get my head around.

Driving is a privilege.

Owning a gun is a right.

It doesn't compute.
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You are way out of date. I have seen one making objects out of a PVC material. It is not that much different to make them out of harder plastics, or possibly even ceramics (I'm not sure of that one). At least some Glocks are made from plastic components.

Glocks have a steel barrel, steel slide and other steel components. They set off metal detectors.

From Ben's article:
, Congress passed the Undetectable Firearms Act, which mandated that all guns sold in the United States must contain at least 3.7 ounces of steel.

Didn't know that. I wonder now how far Glock could go in reducing the amount of steel in the gun?
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Driving is a privilege.

Owning a gun is a right.

It doesn't compute.


I didn't say it was sensible. But that's the way the law is. The 2nd Amendment has firearms as a right. There is no mention of automobiles (or horseless carriages, or even horse-drawn carriages). So not a right, and hence licensable.

Change the 2nd Amendment and you can change this. Good luck, though.
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Who wants their mental health profile cross-referenced to gun/ammo purchases? You can't get drivers and pilots licenses without meeeting physical and mental health health standards.

Or will the nation just grieve for a few days and move along?



You nailed it Sano.

I do however think that the national mood regarding gun violence is near a boiling point. Hopefully no more incidents will occur, but I think one or two more similar tragedies will mobilize people to action. I already am outraged.

And there is no single answer. Yes we need better mental health care. Yes we need to address our culture of violence. Yes we need more effective gun regulations. Yes we need tighter security in schools.

What I get sick of is the attitude of surrender, "we tried gun control and it didn't work, so we gave up, so lets move to the mountains and build a bunker in our yard". I don't want to live in such a country.

Time for some new ideas, we must not stop trying to fix problems.
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Guns are here to stay, and with very few restrictions.


Until their own children and loved ones are gunned down in cold blood.

It's like them being dead-set against abortion until their 14-year-old daughter comes home pregnant. Then... that's DIFFERENT!

AM
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Until their own children and loved ones are gunned down in cold blood.

It's like them being dead-set against abortion until their 14-year-old daughter comes home pregnant. Then... that's DIFFERENT!


But that never happens to enough people at once to make a dent.

Without a major societal attitude adjustment this is a dead issue. It will go absolutely nowhere. People asking Obama to go after this are basically asking him to destroy any chance he has to get anything done this term, IMO. He would use all his political capital for naught.

1poorguy
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Driving is a privilege.

Owning a gun is a right.

It doesn't compute.



easy.....

when the US Constitution was written-- Cars didn't exist. Guns weren't nearly as lethal.
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Yeah, probably. However...you still need ammo. Pretty much can't make that yourself (unless you own a lead mine). Put a radioactive tracer in it (either the lead, or maybe the powder in the cartridge, or the brass cartridge itself), and detectors at key sites (e.g. schools). You bring ammo through the doors, the alarms go off.

In this shooting, the police were called immediately - similar to the alarm going off. So the alarm is of limited value.

Lots of things are radioactive - a bunch of bananas, for example. You would still have problems with false alarms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose

*shrug*
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Yeah, probably. However...you still need ammo. Pretty much can't make that yourself (unless you own a lead mine).

Actually you can make ammo yourself, and a surprisingly large number of people do. Here's one example:

http://www.benchrest.com/FAQ/1.shtml
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Driving is a privilege.

Owning a gun is a right.

It doesn't compute.




One is in the Bill of Rights, the other is not.
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As the North American continent was being populated by Europeans, there were two very distinct philosophies occurring.

While the British settlers were intent on staying on and establishing a territory under their control, the French were establishing trade and trying to fit in with the indigenous system- doing business with the indigenous population and sending the profits home.

In the northern areas, the French were not setting up townships and farms, but were hunting and trading along with the Indians. They sold the Indians rifles to make them better at hunting and providing furs. There wasn't a lot of backlash.

In the colonies, the British were establishing their own townships and territories that needed to be made safe for the settlers.

In the American west, the people arrived in advance of the government and needed to make their own settlements safe. The army came later to aid them.

In the Canadian west, the Mounted Police were there first- looking after the rights of all people in advance of the European settlers.

http://www.guncite.com/journals/dkcgc.html
Par 2 History
PLEASE READ at least the section cited

In America, the war for independence was fought by armed citizens against the government. In Canada- eventually, over time, without a true event to point to, Canadians began to govern themselves.

The result is that Americans look to their heritage and find heroes with particular names and deeds of standing up to overwhelming adversity. Canadians look to their heritage and find heroic ideals like community, law and order, and unity.

America will always be a place that roots for the underdog against the majority- the "Christian" nation that will not just go along to get along because anything done in the name of right is justified even by a minority. The actions of one person may be against the rules, may even cause destruction and death, but if that action is right, we honor it.

This post is commentary about the way things are. I am not judging what should be, but one thing seems very clear to me-

America will never be free of its inherent tragedies that occur from time to time in payment for the liberties that we enjoy. The Left can lament our lack of control of people just as the Right can, and both do, but it is the bed we made. Government health care and strict gun control are not of our heritage, though they may be our future. America is different. Over time, we may find that in certain cases, we would do better to be more the same, but in order to make those critical calls, we at least need to recognize them for what they are- fundamental changes in our cultural being. If we can only recognize that, then we can proceed with our discussions rationally as both sides will understand what we're talking about.

k
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As the North American continent was being populated by Europeans, there were two very distinct philosophies occurring.


four... don't forget the Spanish

(>:
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As the North American continent was being populated by Europeans, there were two very distinct philosophies occurring.


four... don't forget the Spanish

(>:

----------


Don't forget the Native Americans who were here first and actually owned (if the word "own" is appropriate for anyone it's appropriate for them) the land in question.

I have to add that in k's entire long post I didn't see a single "idea for gun control."

AM
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Fat chance.

The ATF found and tested a way to put taggants into dynamite, so that illicit bombs could be tracked back through the distribution chain and we could figure out how explosives were getting outside the legitimate channels of contractors, road builders, and so on.

They ran a preliminary test through the Dupont manufacturing process and out into the field. (The taggants are micro-particle size shards of layered paint (not precisely, but close enough); after the fact you find a couple of them, deconstruct the layers, look up the manufacturers code, they tell you where they sold it, done.)

As luck would have it, there was actually a bomb constructed during this small test, the taggants worked as advertised, the police were able to find out where the explosives were sold and track down the bomb maker, who was convicted and sent to prison.

Great idea, no? The NRA lobbied against it and the program was dismantled and ended. Except in Sweden, where it continues to this day.

http://www.livedash.com/transcript/forensic_files-(tagging_a...

If there is the slightest shard of "responsibility" attached to something gun related or "explosive", you can be sure the NRA will be against it.
 
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I have to add that in k's entire long post I didn't see a single "idea for gun control."

You needed to read the link.

I know it's long-

k
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Beridian: This is nonsense. 3D printers produce objects made of material similar to paper mache. If they ever produce a printer that can fabricate parts made from metal alloys you would have a point. Imagine a desktop printer by Dell, complete with crucibles for melting and casting steel, blast furnaces, forges, smoke stacks for venting the fumes, and lathes for the rifling the barrels.

Not so much... 3D printers are evolving rapidly at the moment. E.g.:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/140084-nasa-3d-prints-roc...

A medium power laser and powdered metal will allow one to do wondrous things, especially in an inert atmosphere.

I expect such printers would cost more than the average deranged murderous nut case could afford. But they would be handy when you need a part for your car or a piece of hardware for around the house.

They're moving downrange in price very quickly.

rj
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easy.....

when the US Constitution was written-- Cars didn't exist. Guns weren't nearly as lethal.


So it's like scripture? Once written it cannot be revised to keep up with new knowledge and technology?

Were these "founding fathers" infallible prophets, or what?
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So it's like scripture? Once written it cannot be revised to keep up with new knowledge and technology?


it CAN be... just very difficult

hard to say which is harder: actual Anendment or
convincing Supremes to make a reasonable interpretation



Were these "founding fathers" infallible prophets, or what?



yup.

actually, IMO the conservative Catholic almost-majority believe it was written to accord with Natural Law
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So it's like scripture? Once written it cannot be revised to keep up with new knowledge and technology?

Were these "founding fathers" infallible prophets, or what?


Of course it can be revised. You just need 38 states to "ratify" the change, and you're golden. Oh...and 2/3 of Congress, I believe.

Quite do-able if you can get past the NRA and the millions of citizens who don't want that change. Despite all the carnage, there is a not-insignificant number of people who are quite vehement about that. Can't say as I really understand why. I'm pro-gun, but also pro-sanity in terms of restrictions. There is no valid reason to own an AR15, nor any weapon that can be converted to full-auto. But we can't even get agreement on that that.
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I like your other idea better. Seems almost ingenious. Require liability insurance.

http://boards.fool.com/free-market-solution-30435220.aspx

I'm not sure if that would violate the 2nd Amendment or not, but it is a unique approach to the idea!
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Of course it can be revised. You just need 38 states to "ratify" the change, and you're golden. Oh...and 2/3 of Congress, I believe.


there aren't enough large states to change electoral college

enough whatever states to amend the 2s

but might be enough to make English the official language
and the official religion Christian


NTTAWWT
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