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If, taking into account every factor of everything in all of existence, an agent making a decision between (a) and (b) would always choose (a), then that is determined. The agent could not have done otherwise. This kills the 'free' part of libertarian free will.

I get your point. I think I did about 2500 posts ago. I just don't find the argument particularly relevant to what actually exists. It reminds me of Zeno's arguments against the possibility of motion and change. They are interesting as exercises in logic but not so much in understanding the real world. Your position is intrinsically untestable since one cannot take into account everything in existence, therefore your position is simply an opinion that you either believe or not based on abstract arguments of logic. I'll only say that just because something seems paradoxical to your brain doesn't mean it cannot be true. It may simply mean you need to consider things from a different perspective.

My position is different. I define free will as the conscious mind makes choices. I base this on my personal experience and what I believe are the personal experiences of most people. IMO, the most likely way for this to occur is if consciousness is a state or characteristic of matter, a hypothesis presented to the scientific community by several others and currently being investigated through empirical studies.

As for 1poorguy's position I am at a loss. There was an analogy made with "laps" that was first presented as an "emergent property" and is now generally agreed to be an "abstraction". In either case the connection to consciousness and free will seems pretty vague. Emergent properties impact the physical universe all the time while I don't know what it means to say that consciousness is an abstraction like a lap.

The central question is whether subjective thoughts can influence the non-conscious physical brain. The primary evidence against this were the Libet-type experiments. However, subsequent studies have led to a reinterpretation of the Libet results in ways that do not preclude free will. As such, there is no significant evidence that I know of against the legitimacy of our personal experience that the conscious mind can make decisions.
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