No. of Recommendations: 3
It's just a way to let billing be automated. Even apples have bar-codes for pricing. Stick an apple bar-code on a banana you get a different price at checkout. If you do it yourself, that's fraud.

There is no more reason a doctor should use a wrong code than there is to make a wrong diagnosis. Now the fact that doctors don't do that themselves means an error might not be theirs (say someone transposes a couple of numbers). But presumably ALL possible diagnoses have codes, so doctors specifying the diagnosis shouldn't have much problem. It's just a way of standardizing the billing.


This would be nice if true -- but from my experience, the codes appear to actually be a way for the insurance company to refuse to pay. Dealing with that right now again -for the nth time. If it was actually as you describe a person like me who rarely sees the Dr. wouldn't have multiple instances of having issue with wrong codes from different Drs (and happening before Obamacare existed too fwiw). It has gotten way worse lately-- BUT that appears to me due to to medical offices getting bought up by 'big business' and becoming almost impossible to talk to an actual person (and labs are the WORST as they claim the code is nothing to do with them and pls pay up while you are fighting it out with insurance and Dr office).
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No. of Recommendations: 12
To the extent that wealthier people will pay the money to get a higher quality plan, you'd expect them to opt for Fee-for-Service Medicare. And that's what's happening according to this market research prepared by the insurance industry's lobbying group.

Sounds like you're very early in your understanding of how Medicare options work.

The difference between who gets MA vs standard Medicare+supplement+Part D probably has a great deal to do with where you live, not household income. All MA plans except Private Fee For Service, are offered by county, with group model HMOs tending to offer their plans in areas of dense population, while often rural locations won't even offer an MA plan.

You might want to read up on the mandatory star rating system Medicare requires of all MA plans (again, except PFFS plans)

https://www.medicareinteractive.org/get-answers/medicare-hea...

The transition to Medicare coverage has many moving parts and is often a major decision for many. A good source of information for many is their state's Senior Health Insurance Program, or SHIP (states may use a different acronym such as Senior Health Insurance Benefit Assistance or SHIBA). This is a program through each State's insurance commissioner's office, funded by Medicare grants and staffed by volunteers. It can be a great single source of information for those beginning their understanding of coverage options. As I recall, I think you once said you live in the Portland area. If so, you may want to review this...

https://healthcare.oregon.gov/shiba/get-help/Pages/who-we-ar...

We have been enrolled in the Kaiser Senior Advantage Plan Plus for 4 years now and are very satisfied with the service we've received. I have no idea what the median income is of those I see at our local Kaiser clinic when we go there, and I frankly don't care. I care that the people who greet me, schedule and process me and ultimately, those who treat me know what they are doing and are concerned about my well being.

BruceM
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To the extent that wealthier people will pay the money to get a higher quality plan, you'd expect them to opt for Fee-for-Service Medicare. And that's what's happening according to this market research prepared by the insurance industry's lobbying group. (See table on page 3 of the pdf.)


Table 3: Age and Gender of Medicare Beneficiaries, by Coverage Type, 2016

Table 1: Income Range of Medicare Beneficiaries by Coverage Type, 2016


Are you sure you don't mean Table 1?
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have begun my study of the program with the goal of developing at least the level of expertise I have with Obamacare.


Good luck with that. It's like trying to sip from a fire hose. Like the maze in Zork-- maze of twisty little passages, all alike.

When I google "Fee for Service Medicare" there are 2 things, one says "original medicare" the other says "Private Fee for Service". Trying to compare two plans is like trying to compare the BOM parts lists of different models of a Ford F-150.

Medicare Advantage may offer retirees a lower monthly premium, but that comes with a restricted list of doctors and hospitals you can use, plus the peril of "out-of-network" billing

We are in a small to medium-small county, and so far we have found that just about every doctor and every hospital is in-network for most of the PPO plans. We were talking with one heart specialist and didn't find him on the list of in-network providers on the Humana plan's site, so we told him they we couldn't see him. He said, "No, we are in that plan, we are ABSOLUTELY in-network." And sure enough, he was, we just had to pay the standard in-network specialist co-pay.

Maybe it is different for different cities or areas of the country, but here there is no problem with the networks.

The out-of-network would possibly be a concern if you travel a lot and have a medical problem when you are far away from home, like in another state.

To the extent that wealthier people will pay the money to get a higher quality plan, you'd expect them to opt for Fee-for-Service Medicare.

Paying more money doesn't necessarily mean it's a "higher quality plan". Like all insurance it's a balancing act between the premium and the level of insurance coverage. Covering every doctor office visit for $0 copay isn't particularly valuable if you are wealthy. $0 vs. $10 vs. $20 --- pfft. Pocket change.
What _is_ valuable is covering an ER visit and 10-day hospitalization for a co-pay of $350/day for the first 5 days and $0/day for the remainder. And medium-cost PPO or HMO Medicare Advantage does that.
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The difference between who gets MA vs standard Medicare+supplement+Part D probably has a great deal to do with where you live, not household income. All MA plans except Private Fee For Service, are offered by county, with group model HMOs tending to offer their plans in areas of dense population, while often rural locations won't even offer an MA plan.

What Medicare plans that are available to you beyond the Original Medicare and Medicare Part D depends on the Zip Code of your residence.

When I retired and had to transition from my corporate health coverage to Medicare, no insurance companies offered a Medicare Advantage plan in my Zip Code. Medicare Advantage plans were offered in my city's two other Zip Codes. Humana and Anthem Blue Cross did start offering Medicare Advantage plans in my Zip Code several years ago.

One disadvantage of Medicare Advantage plans is that your medical insurance will be cancelled if you move to a Zip Code in which the insurer doesn't offer their plan. I discovered that when I updated my current address on the Anthem Blue Cross web site. This also resulted in my retiree healthcare benefit being cancelled.

Hopefully, my retiree healthcare benefit will be restored now that I am now covered under a Kaiser Medicare Advantage plan.
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No. of Recommendations: 2
BruceCM writes,

<<To the extent that wealthier people will pay the money to get a higher quality plan, you'd expect them to opt for Fee-for-Service Medicare. And that's what's happening according to this market research prepared by the insurance industry's lobbying group.>>

Sounds like you're very early in your understanding of how Medicare options work.
\
You might want to read up on the mandatory star rating system Medicare requires of all MA plans (again, except PFFS plans)

</snip>


I'm glad you mentioned the Medicare Star ratings that supposedly measure the "quality" of a Medicare Advantage plan. When I initially came across that, I had high hopes. I was expecting something like Consumer Reports or the JD Powers ratings on automobile quality where you have an independent agency interviewing or polling consumers and tabulating the results.

From what I've been able to learn, these "Star ratings" are self-reported data coming from the insurance companies themselves. I haven't seen any evidence that consumers are being independently interviewed or polled. If you have any information on the 'Star Rating' system beyond the two research reports I've reviewed below, I'd be very interested in reading it.

McKinsey & Co -- Assessing the Medicare Advantage Star Ratings
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/healthcare-systems-and-s...

American Action Forum -- Primer: The Medicare Advantage Star Rating System
https://www.americanactionforum.org/research/primer-the-medi...

</snip>


The primary purpose of the "Star rating" is to determine the annual rebate that the for-profit Medicare Advantage insurer gets from the Gov't at year end. And of course, there are strong financial incentives to goose the numbers in a way that depicts the insurer in the best light.

Even the right-wing American Action Forum led by economist Douglas Holtz-Eakin in the report cited above admits that "it is not clear that the [Star Rating] criteria being evaluated by CMS is necessarily the criteria of most importance to MA beneficiaries, and thus may not be accurately reflecting enrollee preferences. This mismatch of preferences and criteria may be causing more problems than just weakening the effectiveness of the star ratings as an informational tool for patients."

<<BruceCM: The transition to Medicare coverage has many moving parts and is often a major decision for many. A good source of information for many is their state's Senior Health Insurance Program, or SHIP...>>

</snip>


Absolutely! I attended a SHIP seminar last November and found the presenters to be very knowledgeable and completely devoid of any marketing spin. If it's run in other locales like it's managed in Washington State, I completely recommend it.

<<BruceCM: We have been enrolled in the Kaiser Senior Advantage Plan Plus for 4 years now and are very satisfied with the service we've received. I have no idea what the median income is of those I see at our local Kaiser clinic when we go there, and I frankly don't care. I care that the people who greet me, schedule and process me and ultimately, those who treat me know what they are doing and are concerned about my well being.>>

</snip>


Glad to hear you've received good results from the Kaiser shop South of the River.

I've used Kaiser in WA State for the past 2 years only because it's the cheapest plan offered and I only visit them once a year from my free "Obamacare" exam. I'm basically using them just for catastrophic coverage in case a texting teenager runs me over in crosswalk.

In my limited experience with them, I have noticed that Kaiser is a rat's nest of incompetence with major barriers to accomplishing even the simplest of tasks. Last year it took me three weeks to get them to send a prescription for a cheap generic to an outside pharmacy where it was half the price charged by Kaiser. See link:

https://boards.fool.com/more-kaiser-permanente-problems-3400...

I don't know what the Medicare Advantage "Star Rating" is for the Kaiser contract in WA State, but the actual people who've been moved for good or bad to leave a review on Yelp average 2.5 stars.

https://www.yelp.com/biz/kaiser-permanente-orchard-medical-o...

intercst
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No. of Recommendations: 2
Like BruceM, my wife and I are with Kaiser Medicare (the Basic Advantage) and have been happy although it seems like turning 65 also caused our bodies to start falling apart. We chose Kaiser because I wanted access to doctors without having to research the whole realm of doctors which is what would have happened if we were with Medicare and Medigap plans.

I don't know that I would make a different decision today than 2 years ago, but there are some things I had not expected:

* I thought the closest Kaiser facility would be easy to get the care we wanted/needed. Turns out, the closest one is extremely busy, so getting in for anything (even a cardiac event) would take 2 months. So, we tend to drive 30 miles to the other one because we can get in faster. Also turns out the surgeons we needed were at the further one anyway.

* For each new illness, you have to go through your PCP (or a similar level doctor) without fail - no exceptions. They are the "gatekeepers" so-to-speak. They will recommend specialists and you can request a specific person, but you can't take control of the process. frustrates me alot. BUT, once you get that referral, you can skip your PCP which I do all the time now.

* Kaiser Member Services tries to help, but they are average at best. So, getting to people who can really answer detailed, highly specific questions is very hard. Their "firewall" is very good.

* I thought second opinions were standard and easy to get. Not so. Kaiser won't spend the money on an outside organization unless they absolutely don't have the expertise. Even when both our doctors said we should get an outside second opinion (and documented it), kaiser refused. We paid for it and were glad we did.

* A biggy - if you go with someone like Kaiser, you can switch to straight Medicare within a year and get access to one of the Medigap plans. if you wait more than a year, Medicare has the right to refuse admitting you to a Medigap Plan. This little detail never comes up in the conversations though.

* For people who travel alot, Medicare A/B and a Gap plan make sense and not out-of-network. You might have trouble getting into someone quickly though.

* I love the fact that the co-pay is what we pay. Colonoscopy is $215 regardless of what happens. My wife's back surgery this week will cost us about $1,250 max (it is a $75,000 procedure). So, no nickels and dimes coming at you - compared to our pre-Medicare plans.

My suggestion, talk to the SHIP contact as BruceM suggested and, if you can, find someone who has had to use Medicare alot and is young enough to provide counsel. Wish I had talked to Mom and Dad more about it when they were alive.

Good Luck - it is a process of uncovering the stones.

Windrath
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Why 'texting teenager'? I have seen thousands of texting drivers in recent years, most of whom appear to adults on their way to work.
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In my limited experience with them, I have noticed that Kaiser is a rat's nest of incompetence with major barriers to accomplishing even the simplest of tasks.

Hmm. I'm trying Kaiser this year for the first time. I asked my doc for a routine physical. He ordered some blood tests and then I went in to see him. It was pretty perfunctory. He suggested a bunch of follow-ups with specialists to look into things, but I told him I wasn't interested.

So, a bit later I get an "explanation of benefits" for the lab tests. It tells me to expect a bill of $180 for some of them, although most were free. What? What happened to there being no charge for a routine physical? I call them up and they explain to me that my doctor orders what tests he feels are necessary, but they aren't necessarily all included in the routine physical, and therefore aren't necessarily all free. They tell me the doc has no knowledge of what tests are free and what aren't.

So seems bizarre, and, as they suggested, I will be disputing this when the bill arrives.

-IGU-
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windrath writes,

* A biggy - if you go with someone like Kaiser, you can switch to straight Medicare within a year and get access to one of the Medigap plans. if you wait more than a year, Medicare has the right to refuse admitting you to a Medigap Plan. This little detail never comes up in the conversations though.

</snip>


Yeah. The SHIP seminar I attended emphasized that point. If you become ill and don't like the quality of your Medicare Advantage doctors, the fact that you'll be medically underwrited for a Medigap plan may make it impossible to move back to fee-for-service Medicare. In that event, Medicare Advantage is a roach motel that easy to move into, but hard to move out of.

intercst
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What happened to there being no charge for a routine physical? I call them up and they explain to me that my doctor orders what tests he feels are necessary, but they aren't necessarily all included in the routine physical, and therefore aren't necessarily all free.

This happened to me the first time we took our free annual Medicare checkup. Except ours was just a $10 copay for the lab, plus the $10 copay for the doctor visit because he did more stuff than what is included in the "free" checkup. When I questioned the charge (they billed me) the nurse explained that the doctor did stuff that caused the visit to be coded as a regular office visit instead of a free checkup. Nowadays, thanks to left-wing Obamacare, EVERYTHING has a medical billing code and if the office gets it wrong they risk a fraud charge.

Y'know what? I'd rather have the doctor do what tests he thinks should be done, rather than skip tests to save me a little bit of money. Since I didn't go to medical school and he did, then he probably knows more about medicine than I do.


He suggested a bunch of follow-ups with specialists to look into things, but I told him I wasn't interested.

Didn't you ask *why* he suggested these specialists? I would have. You'll feel pretty silly if you collapse at the grocery store because of heart problems and it turns out that you needed a pacemaker--which an appropriate specialist would have told you.


Kaiser is a rat's nest of incompetence

When Kaiser first started out they were the HMO pioneer and were good.
But nowadays.....well, I'll just say that some 20 years ago when we switched to the HMO in my employer's plan because it was cheaper.....we could not wait to ditch the HMO the next year.
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iampaps asks,

Why 'texting teenager'? I have seen thousands of texting drivers in recent years, most of whom appear to adults on their way to work.

</snip>


Because it's an alliteration. But I agree, I see just as many adults with their eyes down at their phone as they're making a right turn through the crosswalk.

intercst
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No. of Recommendations: 5
ItsGoingUp asks,

<<In my limited experience with them, I have noticed that Kaiser is a rat's nest of incompetence with major barriers to accomplishing even the simplest of tasks.>>

Hmm. I'm trying Kaiser this year for the first time. I asked my doc for a routine physical. He ordered some blood tests and then I went in to see him. It was pretty perfunctory. He suggested a bunch of follow-ups with specialists to look into things, but I told him I wasn't interested.

So, a bit later I get an "explanation of benefits" for the lab tests. It tells me to expect a bill of $180 for some of them, although most were free. What? What happened to there being no charge for a routine physical? I call them up and they explain to me that my doctor orders what tests he feels are necessary, but they aren't necessarily all included in the routine physical, and therefore aren't necessarily all free. They tell me the doc has no knowledge of what tests are free and what aren't.

So seems bizarre, and, as they suggested, I will be disputing this when the bill arrives.

</snip>


Kaiser clipped you. There's a proscribed list of what's included in an Obamacare "free preventative screening exam". Ask the wrong question, and you could end up with a $1,000 bill.

https://www.healthcare.gov/preventive-care-adults/

To be safe, I approach the screening exam like a deposition in a contentious court case and say as little as possible. I never offer a hint of having a symptom of anything, and only authorize procedures or lab tests that are on the approved menu linked above.

Last year (2018) was my first visit with Kaiser and my PCP wanted to send me to a specialist for a benign tumor that was completely excised 30 years ago. Note that there was no lump or evidence of growth anywhere and nothing in my blood work that would suggest a problem. This was just something he was doing on the basis of my medical history.

I told him, "I'm not doing that. I have a $5,000 deductible. I'm not going to spend $1,500 out-of-pocket on an MRI and a visit to a specialist for a problem I don't have. I'm on the glide path to Medicare and I'm only authorizing treatment for problems that are likely to kill me on the drive home from the doctor's office -- everything else I'm defering to age 65.

I did authorize the Hepatitis C test. No reason to think I'd been exposed, but why not since it was free. When I went to the Kaiser lab and sit in the chair, I happened to glace at the paperwork on the desk beside the girl doing the blood draw and saw 5 or 6 items on the list. I jumped out of the chair and told her l'm not doing all that. I'm just here for the Hepatitis C test and nothing else. She tells me your doctor's office ordered it. I told her it doesn't matter, I'm not authorizing it.

You need to keep the Kaiser folks on a very short leash.

intercst
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"Because it's an alliteration"
-----------------

lol, I had to look up alliteration to see what you meant. Makes sense now, kinda of like poetic license.
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Y'know what? I'd rather have the doctor do what tests he thinks should be done, rather than skip tests to save me a little bit of money. Since I didn't go to medical school and he did, then he probably knows more about medicine than I do.

Well, I'd rather choose door number three, where if the doctor is doing something that isn't routine and will result in a bill to me, that he talks to me about it.

And as to knowing more about medicine than I do, sure. But he doesn't know more about me or my medical history. So, it's kind of a partnership when it's working.

Didn't you ask *why* he suggested these specialists?

Of course. They were things like: "I see you had this serious illness decades ago. I'd like you to see our guys so that they can verify nothing new is going on." This is just for their edification, not mine. I might even let them examine me if they think I'm an interesting case and they want to pay me for me time. Hell, I'm retired, so I probably wouldn't even charge them.

And yes, I saw my pre-Kaiser specialists not all that long before switching over and they think I'm fine.

-IGU-
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To be safe, I approach the screening exam like a deposition in a contentious court case and say as little as possible. I never offer a hint of having a symptom of anything, and only authorize procedures or lab tests that are on the approved menu linked above.

You know, one of these days your paying such close attention to your wallet in preference to your health will lead to you missing something important.

I did authorize the Hepatitis C test. No reason to think I'd been exposed, but why not since it was free.

Odd, they did a Hep C test on me. It was one of the ones that wasn't free, so maybe that one will be easy to get removed since it's on your list. I wouldn't have authorized it had I been asked, as I don't see any point. I don't have Hep C. If I was perhaps exposed long ago, what possible advantage is there in knowing that?

In any case, they didn't ask for any authorization for lab tests. I remember thinking at the time that it seemed like an awful lot of tests for a routine physical, but I rarely see any problem in collection of additional baseline data, especially on their dime.

You need to keep the Kaiser folks on a very short leash.

I'll keep that in mind. One specialist I did choose to go see was a physiatrist. He looked me (and my previously taken X-rays) over and did a bunch of things to test my condition, and pretty much told me that my (non-Kaiser) chiropractor seemed to have a good handle on things and that I should keep following his advice.

Then he talked about maybe getting an MRI, but looked at my plan and said "It's unlikely it will tell us much you don't already know, and I see you have a high deductible so there's no way it makes sense to spend that kind of money." I appreciated that. It's the kind of interaction I expect to have with my doctors.

So far, other than this minor billing anomaly, I'm reasonably happy with Kaiser. When I asked for a routine physical they asked me whether I wanted to come in today, tomorrow, or next week. When I had previously had that done with my independent practice doc, I had to schedule it months in advance.

-IGU-
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ItsGoingUp writes,

<<To be safe, I approach the screening exam like a deposition in a contentious court case and say as little as possible. I never offer a hint of having a symptom of anything, and only authorize procedures or lab tests that are on the approved menu linked above.>>

You know, one of these days your paying such close attention to your wallet in preference to your health will lead to you missing something important.

</snip>


Actually I take very good care of my health and am I'm happy to see a doctor when it's necessary. But I'm knowledgeable enough about the health care industry to know when I'm likely being scammed with unnecessary work.

<<IGU: Odd, they did a Hep C test on me. It was one of the ones that wasn't free, so maybe that one will be easy to get removed since it's on your list. I wouldn't have authorized it had I been asked, as I don't see any point. I don't have Hep C. If I was perhaps exposed long ago, what possible advantage is there in knowing that?

</snip>


Hep C is a deadly chronic disease that can severely shorten your lifespan, but any visible symptoms could take decades to become apparent. Those born between 1945 and 1965 are 5 times more likely to have it than other populations. (WTF was going on during that 20-year period? <LOL>)

Recently they've developed treatments (pills taken over a period of 2 to 6 months) that can actually cure the disease, but they cost $80,000 to $100,000. I suspect that there was big push back from insurers against putting the Hep C test on the list of free Obamacare benefits. It's much better for the insurer's bottom line if you don't know your infected and lack the knowledge that it can be cured.

Now do you see why I put so much effort into learning about the health care industry and where they're likely to screw me?

intercst
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"Nowadays, thanks to left-wing Obamacare, EVERYTHING has a medical billing code and if the office gets it wrong they risk a fraud charge."

Why do you think it's some left-wing requirement? (other than the obvious attempt to make some sort of political statement). It's actually for the convenience of the insurance companies.

Is there some other way to establish pricing for a service or procedure?

It's just a way to let billing be automated. Even apples have bar-codes for pricing. Stick an apple bar-code on a banana you get a different price at checkout. If you do it yourself, that's fraud.

There is no more reason a doctor should use a wrong code than there is to make a wrong diagnosis. Now the fact that doctors don't do that themselves means an error might not be theirs (say someone transposes a couple of numbers). But presumably ALL possible diagnoses have codes, so doctors specifying the diagnosis shouldn't have much problem. It's just a way of standardizing the billing.

The stranger thing is that given that EVERYTHING has a code, it shouldn't be that difficult to make a price-list available. But no one does that. I'm guessing that's a right-wing insurance company causing that.
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The stranger thing is that given that EVERYTHING has a code, it shouldn't be that difficult to make a price-list available. But no one does that. I'm guessing that's a right-wing insurance company causing that.

But in your case you're right.
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It's just a way to let billing be automated. Even apples have bar-codes for pricing. Stick an apple bar-code on a banana you get a different price at checkout. If you do it yourself, that's fraud.

There is no more reason a doctor should use a wrong code than there is to make a wrong diagnosis. Now the fact that doctors don't do that themselves means an error might not be theirs (say someone transposes a couple of numbers). But presumably ALL possible diagnoses have codes, so doctors specifying the diagnosis shouldn't have much problem. It's just a way of standardizing the billing.


This would be nice if true -- but from my experience, the codes appear to actually be a way for the insurance company to refuse to pay. Dealing with that right now again -for the nth time. If it was actually as you describe a person like me who rarely sees the Dr. wouldn't have multiple instances of having issue with wrong codes from different Drs (and happening before Obamacare existed too fwiw). It has gotten way worse lately-- BUT that appears to me due to to medical offices getting bought up by 'big business' and becoming almost impossible to talk to an actual person (and labs are the WORST as they claim the code is nothing to do with them and pls pay up while you are fighting it out with insurance and Dr office).
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Why do you think it's some left-wing requirement? (other than the obvious attempt to make some sort of political statement).

Just poking intercst, who seems to want to inject "right-wing" and "Fox News" into every topic.
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I get it. My truck threw two codes last week. I read the codes, replaced the parts, and the codes cleared. I am pretty sure there wasn't anything wrong with my truck it was really the codes that caused the problems.

Andy
Blaming the codes seems pretty ridiculous doesn't it.
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"This would be nice if true -- but from my experience, the codes appear to actually be a way for the insurance company to refuse to pay."

What other way is there to establish price other than billing codes?

It seems that the problems are mostly with incorrect selection/entry of the billing code but that's a management/company problem, not the system per se.
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Nowadays, thanks to left-wing Obamacare, EVERYTHING has a medical billing code and if the office gets it wrong they risk a fraud charge.

This statement, whether made from malice or ignorance, is false.

I worked as a CFO for a non-profit from 2001-2014, a period that started well before the Affordable Care Act. The agency billed Medicaid, Medicare, and private insurance.

Everything was billed using a medical code, even private insurance carriers. Visits had multiple codes depending on the level of service, as did many types of procedures and services.

And, from when I started, use of incorrect billing was viewed automatically as fraud. So we, as many who billed these services, tended to be cautious and under coded services resulting in underpayment. One exception to the fraud rule was voluntary disclosure. If, during a self audit (and there were many), you found you made an error you could self disclose and be exempt from fraud.

All of this well pre-dated the ACA.

As an interesting side note, insurance billing is the only billing service I am aware of where you don’t want to get paid what you billed. Insurance companies have a ceiling of what they pay for a specific medical code, almost always a low number. If you got paid what you billed, you better review your costs for that service because chances are you missed something and should raise your prices. The whole thing is a revenue recognition nightmare.

AW
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It seems that the problems are mostly with incorrect selection/entry of the billing code but that's a management/company problem, not the system per se.

My doctor grouses that she is the most highly paid data-entry clerk in her office.

(She hasn't asked us the new fashion question "Do you have a gun in your house?"
'course, down here the standard answer would be "What do you mean "a"?" Next standard answer would be "Duh!")
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"(She hasn't asked us the new fashion question "Do you have a gun in your house?""

Has anybody on this board actually been asked that question by their doctor(s)?
'
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iampops asks,

<<"(She hasn't asked us the new fashion question "Do you have a gun in your house?"">>

Has anybody on this board actually been asked that question by their doctor(s)?

</snip>


I bet the doctor was just "poking" Rayvt.

intercst
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The standard questions I get at doctors' visits are:
Are you in pain?
Do you feel safe at home?
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My doc always seems to 'have you fallen lately?'....... a problem for many seniors I guess.

Have an annual 'wellness checkup' tomorrow. Got to miss breakfast..... no food.....before exam and blood work....


t.
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borisnand writes,

The standard questions I get at doctors' visits are:
Are you in pain?
Do you feel safe at home?

</snip>


Jesus, what kind of neighborhood do you live in?

intercst
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"(She hasn't asked us the new fashion question "Do you have a gun in your house?""

Has anybody on this board actually been asked that question by their doctor(s)?


Yes. At least twice that I can recall. Once for myself and once with my son's Ped.
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"The standard questions I get at doctors' visits are:
Are you in pain?
Do you feel safe at home?

</snip>

Jesus, what kind of neighborhood do you live in?"


The kind where the doctors actually care for your well-being.
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The standard questions I get at doctors' visits are:
Are you in pain?
Do you feel safe at home?


???
"Why do you think I'm here, just to chat with you?"


... Do you feel safe at home?

I've never been asked that, being a man and all.... But years ago my wife came home from a doctor appointment and told me "They asked me the strangest question. Puzzling. I went in for {medical reason} and they asked if I felt safe."
A few days later, she told me, "Oh, NOW I get it, they were asking if you beat me. I was so naive I thought they were asking if there were any loose steps on the stairs or something."

Ever since then, we have *lots* of fun when/if they ask that question. Sometimes I'll quiver and shrink down and say "Yes??? Oh yes, I feel very safe???" Sometimes she'll say, "We have rug at the bottom of the stairs to cushion me whenever I trip and fall down the stairs...twice."
Sometimes she'll say, "Yes, very safe. I have my Sig Sauer in the nightstand and my Ruger LCP2 under my pillow and his Smith&Wesson 9MM in the top drawer in the bathroom and a 1911 on the refrigerator in the kitchen." [*]

But the time we found out that she was *really* allergic to cipro... Ugh. A couple hours later she looked like she had walked into a biker bar and called them all sissies. Good thing we called the doctors office (and got benadryl) instead of the paramedics. One look at her face and they'd have put me in handcuffs. Her eyes swole up so bad that she couldn't see. They'd have been looking for the 2x4 I smacked her with.

---------------
[*] Sometimes the response will be some variation of, "Which model of Sig do you have? I usually carry a Sig P238 but sometimes a P365."
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Yes. At least twice that I can recall. Once for myself and once with my son's Ped.

The only time I have ever been asked about guns was by my kids’ pediatrician. Kids are now 28, so that was quite a lot of years ago.

That is not a new question, although I get the impression that some folks here would like to imply that it is.
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Firearm accidents are the second leading cause of death among children and teens in the US behind motor vehicle accidents, and way more common than drowning or poisoning. It isn't a crazy question to ask from a public health standpoint.
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Firearm accidents are the second leading cause of death among children and teens in the US behind motor vehicle accidents, and way more common than drowning or poisoning. It isn't a crazy question to ask from a public health standpoint. - syke6

---------------

Given the rush most Drs seem to be in when you finally get to see them in the exam room, I may have other things more important to discuss. And what is the Dr supposed to do with your answer anyway?
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No. of Recommendations: 16
syke6 writes,

Firearm accidents are the second leading cause of death among children and teens in the US behind motor vehicle accidents, and way more common than drowning or poisoning. It isn't a crazy question to ask from a public health standpoint.

</snip>

It's a completely crazy question if you love your guns more than your kids.

intercst
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I can see how a doctor could conclude that guns are a public health issue to the extent that over 60% of gun deaths per year in the U.S. are suicides:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-da...

And it now appears that teen suicides may be higher in states with high levels of gun ownership:

https://psmag.com/social-justice/household-guns-linked-to-yo...

Not sure how this ties into retirement investing.
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iampops,

You wrote, I can see how a doctor could conclude that guns are a public health issue to the extent that over 60% of gun deaths per year in the U.S. are suicides ...

I see where you guys are going with this, but I think bighairymike has a point.

If I'm paying someone over $400/hour for an office visit (I / my insurance has paid more than twice that for a specialist), I don't want them wasting my money asking me noisy questions unrelated to my medical condition at my expense. Maybe when healthcare becomes a public service and/or we have a single-payer system you can justify these questions. Though I'm skeptical that there is enough data to show that asking these types of questions actually produces any measurable benefit in terms of providing quality care or an overall reduction in healthcare costs. But until they can show that, these types of questions are just driving up costs for everyone.

I guarantee you that if a lawyer or CPA asked me noisy questions like that I'd have no compunction about reprimanding them for wasting my money like that! Why is it inappropriate to treat a healthcare provider the same way? Who are they really working for anyway?

- Joel
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iampops writes,

I can see how a doctor could conclude that guns are a public health issue to the extent that over 60% of gun deaths per year in the U.S. are suicides:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-da......

And it now appears that teen suicides may be higher in states with high levels of gun ownership:

https://psmag.com/social-justice/household-guns-linked-to-yo......

Not sure how this ties into retirement investing.

</snip


It's pretty obvious. If you have a reliable way to commit suicide, it greatly increases your chances of not outliving your retirement nest egg.

intercst
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joelcorley writes,

If I'm paying someone over $400/hour for an office visit (I / my insurance has paid more than twice that for a specialist), I don't want them wasting my money asking me noisy questions unrelated to my medical condition at my expense. Maybe when healthcare becomes a public service and/or we have a single-payer system you can justify these questions.

</snip>


You're more likely to get those lifestyle questions in your "free" obamacare preventative screening exam where you've already paid for it in the cost of your health insurance.

The PCP I had before I switched to Kaiser had a lengthy questionnaire they went through in the screening exam including asking if you were depressed three different ways. Then the fourth question in that series was "Have I asked you if you're depressed three times?" I don't know, maybe it has something to do with legal liability.

At Kaiser they just ask, "Do you really want me to do the prostate exam? And if you reply, "No, I'm good." The doctor looks relieved.

intercst
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At Kaiser they just ask, "Do you really want me to do the prostate exam? And if you reply, "No, I'm good." The doctor looks relieved.

At Kaiser just a few days ago during my routine annual exam, before the doctor came in, the nurse asked me if I felt safe at home. Nothing about guns though.

-IGU-
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I'm less than 18 months before I qualify for Medicare and have begun my study of the program with the goal of developing at least the level of expertise I have with Obamacare.

Since you live in Washington state, I would suggest that a good way to gain such expertise would be to volunteer for your local SHIBA (State Health Insurance Benefit Advisors) group. https://www.insurance.wa.gov/become-statewide-health-insuran... SHIBA will provide you with the training to advise others on what type of health insurance will best fit their circumstances, including, but not limited to - which type of Medicare plan to choose and which pharmacy should be their preferred pharmacy. Just like with Tax Aide and VITA (where volunteers are trained to prepare tax returns for free), SHIBA trains volunteers to help people with their health insurance. So, if you decide not to volunteer, I would still suggest consulting the SHIBA service in your area. (In my area, they offer appointments through the local senior centers.)

Many other states offer this type of service through their State Insurance Department, so for those lurkers who don't live in Washington, I would suggest that you search the website of your state's Insurance Department/Regulator if you want to find a similar service. Or ask at your local senior center.

AJ
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aj485 suggests,

Since you live in Washington state, I would suggest that a good way to gain such expertise would be to volunteer for your local SHIBA (State Health Insurance Benefit Advisors) group.

</snip>


I attended a SHIP seminar last November and found it to be informative. But they don't seem to be doing the kind of hard-core cost and policy analysis that's a hobby of mine. And they emphasized that they're not allowed to make specific plan recommendations to the people who seek their help. (No doubt, specific, cost effective recommendations would spark the ire of the Medicare Advantage sales community. <LOL>)

Just as the Obamacare Navigators are unlikely to craft a portfolio strategy that allows you to make six-figure annual withdrawals while keeping your taxable income below the threshold for a $0/month Health Plan, I doubt the SHIP training provides what you need to squeeze the last dollar of what's possible from your Medicare benefit.

But I agree that for most folks, a visit to SHIP (or SHIBA -- whatever they call it your community) should be their first stop before they talk to an insurance salesman.

intercst
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I have been asked by a doctor is we had a gun in our home. I declined to answer.

c
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{{It's pretty obvious. If you have a reliable way to commit suicide, it greatly increases your chances of not outliving your retirement nest egg.}}


Well everyone does have that. Surveys show that hanging is just as if not more effective than a gun shot for suicide. Most years, a higher percentage of people who attempt suicide survive a gun shot than survive a hanging attempt.

For hanging, all someone needs is a rope or piece of cloth.


c
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Now if my doctor asked me the famous quote attributed rightly or wrongly to Mae West, I would be worried. ;-)

I don't recall ever being asked about a firearm, but certainly have been asked about smoking, drinking, eating, exercise, pets, etc... . Considering the higher risk of suicide for men age 65 and older, I wouldn't be surprised to eventually be asked about a firearm in the doctor's office at some point in the coming decade(s).

Across the country, suicide rates have been on the rise, and that rise has struck the nation's seniors particularly hard. Of the more than 47,000 suicides that took place in 2017, those 65 and up accounted for more than 8,500 of them, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Men who are 65 and older face the highest risk of suicide, while adults 85 and older, regardless of gender, are the second most likely age group to die from suicide.
https://www.npr.org/2019/07/27/745017374/isolated-and-strugg...

BB
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Had my Medicare 'wellness' annual physical today..

One page form with a dozen questions asking if I was depressed in 10 different questions and ways......

otherwise, nothing new.

Asked about test for HEP-C - now recommended for those born 1945-1964....and the new Shingles vaccine - Singrix. OK on first, to get the Singrix, got to go to local pharmacies - they are the only ones with it and it is in short supply - still. Local Kroger seems to have it.

Did get my flu shot today.

Good for another year.

Will hear back on the blood work lab tests.

weighed 10 lbs less than last year so hope the cholesterol number goes down.


t.
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There is no more reason a doctor should use a wrong code than there is to make a wrong diagnosis. . .

That's not completely true. There is not a 1-to-1 correspondence between procedures and insurance codes. Many procedures can be described using multiple sets of codes and each choice of coding implies different payments and coverage. I have had to fight insurance companies over coding on several occasions. One example is colonoscopies on an ACA policy or Medicare. Code it one way, and it is free to the patient. Code it another way and it is covered like surgery.

The stranger thing is that given that EVERYTHING has a code, it shouldn't be that difficult to make a price-list available. But no one does that. I'm guessing that's a right-wing insurance company causing that.

Not only are there not a unique set of codes for every procedure, but the codes are not always shared across insurance companies or policies.
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" One example is colonoscopies on an ACA policy or Medicare. Code it one way, and it is free to the patient. Code it another way and it is covered like surgery."

"Not only are there not a unique set of codes for every procedure, but the codes are not always shared across insurance companies or policies."

Possibly, just possibly, there's something fundamentally wrong with the way we provide healthcare in this country.
Nah, that's not likely true because people wouldn't put up with that, would they?
Surely their representatives would speak up...
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Doesn’t everyone use CPT codes and ICD-10 codes now?

Though miscoded stuff is found all the time, usually because of user error.
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"I guarantee you that if a lawyer or CPA asked me noisy questions like that I'd have no compunction about reprimanding them for wasting my money like that! Why is it inappropriate to treat a healthcare provider the same way? Who are they really working for anyway?"

I think the difference is that a doctor might occasionally discover a household with guns, depression and/or alcohol and potentially save a life. As a trial lawyer, my job was to defend a person against criminal charges and/or sue or defend an insurance company, and/or sue or defend a stockbroker, etc., not look out for their health or save their lives. I had a small practice and got to know and care about many of my clients, but their health and safety generally were not my job.

I don't how effective it is to add those questions to the screening process absent other factors - i.e., knowledge of alcohol abuse and/or depression in the household which might cause a doctor ask such a question. And it way well be inefficient to add that to a list of scripted questions absent additional relevant evidence, so can't argue the point either way on that score.
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"I don't how effective it is to add those questions to the screening process absent other factors - i.e., knowledge of alcohol abuse and/or depression in the household which might cause a doctor ask such a question."

It was the doctor's 'assistant' who gave me a one page list of questions to answer about depression, loneliness, feeling 'useless', etc....10 or 12 questions all about depression and despondency.....

did that in 30 seconds....handed it back....

doc never looked at it...guess it went into the computer......

had 10-15 minute visit with the doc.....


t.
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doc never looked at it...guess it went into the computer...... - tele

-----------------

And from there to the computer at Medicare and the Dept of Health, and if you mention a gun then to your dossier in a computer at the FBI and who knows where else.
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And from there to the computer at Medicare and the Dept of Health, and if you mention a gun then to your dossier in a computer at the FBI and who knows where else.


You really think the government is that organized?
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bighairymike analyzes,

And from there to the computer at Medicare and the Dept of Health, and if you mention a gun then to your dossier in a computer at the FBI and who knows where else.

</snip>


You realize that Google and Facebook already know far more about you than any branch of the US Gov't?

intercst
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Particularly considering that coordinating the DoD with Veterans Affairs seems to be an insolvable computer problem.
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You realize that Google and Facebook already know far more about you than any branch of the US Gov't?

intercst


---------------

You are right about that. And the governmemt can obtain your data from them any time they want to.
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You really think the government is that organized?

The Soviet Union documented *everything*. One of the famous Russians, Solzhenitsyn I think, wrote about that.

I thought that was weird when I first read it. Here they are a regime that was murdering and torturing millions of people willy-nilly and writing everything down in exquisite detail. And that was in the pen & paper days, long before the existence of petabyte and exabyte data data stores.
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You realize that Google and Facebook already know far more about you than any branch of the US Gov't?

intercst


And they have become instruments of government
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As a former Government Insider I can say that the idea that "The Government" is some sort of Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight" is true only in cases wherein it is true. But, they can get it together real good and efficient like when they want to.

Now, where do you think The Gov would give a crap to really make the effort to get it together? And where do you think they wouldn't really give a crap?

Cataloguing things about people to use as a weapon at a later date? Or coordinating the VA with DOD so Veteran's or their widows/widowers can settle an issue and maybe get what they've got coming?

Don't know why but it's usually right wingers and Libertarians who seem to think "The GOV" is both. Laughably incompetent and simulatanously viciously efficient and must be feared.

PS: I don't think that "gun question" your doctor might ask you goes into an FBI database. Their might be some "handshake" data share agreement with local police though. As a previous poster has said, the FBI can find out what guns you own by tracking your Facebook page and related social media
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I attended a SHIP seminar last November and found it to be informative. But they don't seem to be doing the kind of hard-core cost and policy analysis that's a hobby of mine. And they emphasized that they're not allowed to make specific plan recommendations to the people who seek their help.

While they may not do the 'hard-core analysis' - they do give volunteers training on the details of each different plan, and provide resources that one may not otherwise know about or have access to. That's why I suggested that you look into training to be a volunteer, not just using them as a resource.

While they may not give specific recommendations, they will go over costs of each different possibility, including costs of your specific prescriptions at different pharmacies in the area. And they will also point out things that are covered (or not) under each different plan.

AJ
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No. of Recommendations: 14
I just always wonder about the tin foil hat crowd—what are you doing that you’re so worried the government/google/Facebook/Alexa is going to find out?

There are probably 10 easier ways for “them” to find out about your guns besides records of conversations with your doctor: your Facebook postings, your NRA memberships, your concealed carry permits, gun show attendance records, memberships in a gun club or rifle range, there may be records of credit cards used at gun shops, who knows what kinds of records Cabelas keeps when you buy ammo, not to mention other accoutrements related to shooting and hunting.

It seems like a checkbox on a doctor’s form is pretty innocuous compared to all that.
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"There are probably 10 easier ways for “them” to find out about your guns besides records of conversations with your doctor: your Facebook postings, your NRA memberships, your concealed carry permits, gun show attendance records, memberships in a gun club or rifle range, there may be records of credit cards used at gun shops, who knows what kinds of records Cabelas keeps when you buy ammo, not to mention other accoutrements related to shooting and hunting."

Millions of people are not on Facebook. Nor members of the NRA.

Even if they belong to a gun club or rifle range or pistol range, that does not tell the government whether they own a specific type of weapon (ie, your 'assault' rifle....from a musket that was the 'assault rifle' of the Revolutionary War to the 30-06 type weapon of the WW1, or the Sturmgewehr of the Second World War, or the M-16 of the Vietnam War.

Unless you have jack boot Gestapo types breaking down doors, you haven't got a clue of how to 'confiscate' any type of weapon you intent to confiscate.

Most stores don't track ammo sales.....you can buy ammo on line in most states and at gun shows for cash.

They'll be millions of guns that 'were stolen' once the feds start looking for them......


t.
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They'll be millions of guns that 'were stolen' once the feds start looking for them......

I lost mine in a terrible boating accident.

PSU
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I lost mine in a terrible boating accident.

Me, too (hot-tubs count, right?).

Pete
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"in a terrible boating accident."

I was going to mention that, but I see several others beat me to it. ;-)

There's a stretch of water near Guadalcanal that is known as Ironbottom Sound because of the number of ships and planes that sank there during the Battle of Guadalcanal in 1942–43.

Every decent sized lake in large parts of the US will be nicknamed Ironbottom Lake.


To MissEdith and others who don't know anything about guns other than what they've heard on MSNBC: The only part of an AR-15 that is registered is the lower receiver. That's the piece that classifies it as a firearm, all the other parts are just that--parts. You can buy as many "parts" as you want and nobody tracks your purchase.

You can buy a lower receiver for as cheap as $35. At that price you can buy a dozen or two, just to have them on hand if you need it. And at $35, what do you care if you lose a couple of them?

Oooooh, you can get blemished ones for $31, in a variety of colors. Even pink! (Ugh, won't _that_ be a hit at the gun range?) https://www.tnarmsco.com/blemish-sale-ar15-limited-number-of... Aaaaah, or a blem clear/transparent lower receiver for $37.
"Yes, Mr. ATF Agent, I did buy 3 clear lower receivers, but two of them cracked when I was installing them and I just threw them in the trash."

Also, an "80% Lower" is not a firearm, so it is not registered and doesn't have to go through an FFL to buy it. Legally it is just a chunk of metal...a paperweight not a firearm component. A couple hours with a drillpress and a file and you have a fully functional lower---legal and not registered.
You can buy an 8-pack for $35 each. And sonofagun if four of them didn't get ruined when you were drilling them and you just discarded them.
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I just always wonder about the tin foil hat crowd—what are you doing that you’re so worried the government/google/Facebook/Alexa is going to find out?

There are probably 10 easier ways for “them” to find out about your guns besides records of conversations with your doctor: your Facebook postings, your NRA memberships, your concealed carry permits, gun show attendance records, memberships in a gun club or rifle range, there may be records of credit cards used at gun shops, who knows what kinds of records Cabelas keeps when you buy ammo, not to mention other accoutrements related to shooting and hunting.

It seems like a checkbox on a doctor’s form is pretty innocuous compared to all that.


>>>>Many gun show sales are cash...<<<<<
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Most stores don't track ammo sales.....you can buy ammo on line in most states

This thread is officially getting weird.

Buying something online is exact opposite of doing it privately.

However, your conversations with your doctor are private and have legal protections.

My advice is that for those who you who distrust your doctor to the point where you believe he will violate HIPPA and rat you out to the Feds---find a different doctor you do trust.

If you think buying ammo online instead in person will make you anonymous...Boy howdy are you in for a surprise! But by all means, keep lying to your doctor.
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"To MissEdith and others who don't know anything about guns other than what they've heard on MSNBC:"

I vow not to paint my fellow posters with such a wide brush.
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To MissEdith and others who don't know anything about guns


Why do you assume I know nothing about guns? I used to regularly shoot sporting clays with my dad from junior high up, and regularly went to the pistol range as well.

You know what they say about assuming...

Granted, I’m not a “gun nut” and I don’t study up on firearms. But don’t be so dismissive when you don’t know Jack spit about the person you’re talking to/about.
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>>>>Many gun show sales are cash...<<<<<


Don’t you guys know what data mining is?
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>>>>Many gun show sales are cash...<<<<<

To buy a gun at a show from a dealer, you have to go through a background check. Paying cash at that point doesn't matter. The cash sales would be among people attending the show that bring their own guns. This can be prevented by not allowing guns to be brought into the building by attendees.

PSU
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I keep wondering - Why are you so fearful of registering a firearm? Do you also refuse to register your automobiles? Is someone going to come confiscate your precious?

Better set in a supply of tin hats.

CNC
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Is someone going to come confiscate your precious? - CNC

----------------

Beto came out and not only said yes but phrased it as "Hell Yes"

So there is that....
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PSU:"To buy a gun at a show from a dealer, you have to go through a background check. Paying cash at that point doesn't matter. The cash sales would be among people attending the show that bring their own guns. This can be prevented by not allowing guns to be brought into the building by attendees."

Actually it does. Those FFL checks are only for the purchase of a firearm, not the purchase of a specific firearm. Could be a 12 gauge 3 shot shotgun...or a .22 target rifle.......

If you pay cash, there is no transaction record kept in the big system of credit card purchases...and even they are only for X amount...not what you bought. Heck, you could have bought hunting clothes from XYZ Suppliers. Then again, the feds might break down your door anyway hunting for 'illegal guns' knowing you bought from XYZ Suppliers.

Same for ammo...no record is kept...but if you buy from XYZ AMMO Inc....and use a credit card....well, there's the record the feds can use....to know there's a gun in your house.....
Pay cash,no record.

Oh, and entry into gun shows is per person, no ID required.....$5 to get in.....cash works fine.


t.
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Beto came out and not only said yes but phrased it as "Hell Yes"

So there is that....


If he can get 218 congressmen and 51 senators to agree, what then? Gonna pull a Branch Davidian on us?

CNC
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"I keep wondering - Why are you so fearful of registering a firearm? Do you also refuse to register your automobiles? Is someone going to come confiscate your precious?"


Just about every country that started a gun registry went on to to gun confiscation a few years later. Germany - Australia - England -

That's why.

Canada tried a gun registry. Cost them a billion bucks. After 10 years they found out it was so riddled with inaccuracies and problems.......and it didn't solve one 'gun crime' in 10 years.....and was costing them tens of millions a year to try to keep current with people moving, buying/trading guns, losing them - from police reports - that they abandoned it after 10 years.

So why have a gun registry that is useless, solves no crimes, and costs a fortune?

Remember, criminals never register their guns.

Nor would mass shooters......all of them passed background checks, stole them for use, or possessed guns illegally....

Your gun registry idea would have prevented none, hassled 100 million law abiding gun owners.....

GO after the idiots who post on social media they are going to wipe out a school! enforce the existing laws against gun crimes (Federal law requiring 5 year mandatory sentence for use of a firearm in a felony crime)......which liberals refuse to use since little Johnny, after 27 convictions in the local courts for armed robbery, hasn't killed anyone YET during his crimes and gets 3 weeks in jail and 3 weeks probation each time because he grew up in a 'deprived' neighborhood. And that's why Chicago, Baltimore, DC, Detroit, St Louis are all democrat cesspools of murder and crime.


t.
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telegraph burbled:
Canada tried a gun registry. Cost them a billion bucks. After 10 years they found out it was so riddled with inaccuracies and problems.......and it didn't solve one 'gun crime' in 10 years.....and was costing them tens of millions a year to try to keep current with people moving, buying/trading guns, losing them - from police reports - that they abandoned it after 10 years.

I don't know the first thing about this, but given your history of using information sources that flat out lie, I'd be willing to bet that not a single word of this is true beyond maybe the first sentence.

Prove me wrong.

-IGU-
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IGU: Prove me wrong.

Easy to do and a 1 minute search on Google for Canadian Gun Registry Failure would get you 1000 hits.



Canada Tried Registering Long Guns -- And Gave Up

"Canada tried it and gave up, discovering like several other nations that attempting to identify every gun in the country is an expensive and ultimately unproductive exercise. Criminals, of course, don't register their guns. And even law-abiding citizens tend to ignore registration when it comes to long guns mostly used for hunting and target shooting.

Universal registration has been tried in several countries, most recently in Canada. The program turned out to be far more expensive than expected and didn't have any discernable impact on crime, perhaps because long guns are used so rarely by criminals in the first place.

According to Canadian researcher (and gun enthusiast) Gary Mauser, the Canada Firearms Center quickly rose to 600 employees and the cost of the effort climbed past $600 million. In 2002 Canada's auditor general released a report saying initial cost estimates of $2 million (Canadian) had increased to $1 billion as the government tried to register the estimated 15 million guns owned by Canada's 34 million residents.

Finally in 2011, conservatives led by Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper voted to abolish the long-gun registry and destroy all its records.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2013/01/22/canada-...

See also

http://davekopel.org/2A/Mags/The-Failure-of-Canadian-Gun-Con...

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/gary-mauser-why-the-long-gu...

A billion dollars ( a lot of money in Canada with 1/10th the people of the US.....thrown down the drain. Did it prevent ONE mass shooting? No!

t.
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No. of Recommendations: 22
Telegraph again blathers:
Easy to do and a 1 minute search on Google for Canadian Gun Registry Failure would get you 1000 hits.

As I said, I know nothing about this, but trivially I find that everything you wrote is false. No, gun registry in Canada didn't fail. It happily exists today. See (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Firearms_Registry).

From 1995 to 2012, all firearms owners were required to possess a firearms licence (either a PAL, POL, FAC or a minors licence) and all firearms were required to be registered. In April 2012, the requirement to register non-restricted firearms was dropped in every province and territory, except for Quebec, with Bill C-19, the Ending the Long-gun Registry Act coming into force. The legislation also required the destruction of all records related to the registration of non-restricted firearms. The requirement for all firearms owners to possess a valid firearms licence remains law.

You originally wrote about a gun registry failing. Turns out it was just a part that didn't work out, guns classified as non-restricted.

The current program is described here: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Firearms_Program).

Once again, I don't know anything about it beyond a minute of web search, but I'm willing to bet once again that what we were discussing, AR-15s, are absolutely required to be registered in Canada. What is the matter with you? Nothing but lies and half-truths.

Yeah, looks like things are heading in a different direction from what you describe:
https://ipolitics.ca/2019/05/28/liberal-gun-bill-passes-fire...

-IGU-
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"The standard questions I get at doctors' visits are:
Are you in pain?
Do you feel safe at home?

***************************************
Actually, these questions are starting to be required for us to be paid by many insurances. My group has picked the Safe at home, Fall risk, and Are you depressed questions - to be asked by every doctor, every visit.

I object - if I'm treating someone for depression, I don't need to screen for it. But I am not allowed to sign off a chart without answering that question. And if the answer is yes, it pops into a whole 'nother screen of questions to ask. Waste of time to slog through. I will either have to see fewer pts to deal with the additional documentation or give up my free time to do it.

And yes, peds has to ask at the 18 month well child check if there is a fall risk. I pointed out to the really annoying compliance nurse that it was stupid.

I cracked up at my ortho appt a while back - they chose the "last mamm, last flu shot, and fall risk" as their 3 questions. WHAT on earth is an ortho doing dealing with mamms? But they ask it to game the system and get paid.

Kristi
#fedup
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I don't know the first thing about this, but given your history of using information sources that flat out lie, I'd be willing to bet that not a single word of this is true beyond maybe the first sentence.

Prove me wrong.


Do you google?
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>>I don't know the first thing about this, but given your history of using information sources that flat out lie, I'd be willing to bet that not a single word of this is true beyond maybe the first sentence.

Prove me wrong.<<

Do you google? - Rayvt


-----------------

Suggestion

Do you DuckDuckGo?
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medgoddess writes,

<<<Actually, these questions are starting to be required for us to be paid by many insurances.>>>

So these are questions being forced on you by insurance companies (I assume as a "gotcha" to use as a basis for denying a claim) rather than a Federal Obamacare requirement?

Interesting.

intercst
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So these are questions being forced on you by insurance companies
************************************
Some by insurance companies, some by regulations from the government. It's a huge PITA.

Accelerating my retirement, having to deal with this stuff.

Kristi
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>>>>Many gun show sales are cash...<<<<<

To buy a gun at a show from a dealer, you have to go through a background check. Paying cash at that point doesn't matter. The cash sales would be among people attending the show that bring their own guns. This can be prevented by not allowing guns to be brought into the building by attendees.

PSU



>>>>>>PSU.... no background check for buying at a gun show from a collector or non dealer...

gun shows are full of them...if you buy at an auction there is only a transfer fee to a licensed

dealer but i believe no background check there either...
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if you buy at an auction there is only a transfer fee to a licensed

dealer but i believe no background check there either...


I've bought guns online by auction. My FFL dealer always called into the NICS hotline to check me out while I was standing there.
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