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Arab League chief Amr Moussa said on Tuesday Israel had coordinated its attempt to capture a jailed Palestinian militant with Britain and the United States, who withdrew monitors from the West Bank jail ahead of the raid.

"Clearly, there is some sort of coordination," he told Al Jazeera television by phone. "This [withdrawal of U.S. and British monitors] raises obvious question marks."


http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/694136.html

It goes without saying that America would collude with Israel. That Britain appears now to be colluding with Israel shows how far brown-nosing to the Bush administration is going.



CF


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Interesting....I had to pop downstairs a moment or two ago and found my wife watching the BBC's coverage of the Israeli prison raid.
She was aghast.
"The Israelis are b*****ds", she spluttered.

Another antisemite, obviously.


(;-) CF
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"The Israelis are b*****ds", she spluttered.

Another antisemite, obviously.


(;-) CF


Obviously you are two peas from the same pod.


osd
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Obviously you are two peas from the same pod.


osd


It's nothing surprising, osd - 50% of Brits think as we do.



CF

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It's nothing surprising, osd - 50% of Brits think as we do.

It's good to know that 50% don't.
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It's nothing surprising, osd - 50% of Brits think as we do.



CF


Delusional or do you have empirical evidence to back this up?

Everyone Hitler liked thought just like he did. 100%.


osd
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You're an interesting chap, Mark.
I'm sure you've read my posts on Israel over the years, the steady catalogue of horrific state atrocities against a bunch of people who are pretty helpless in the face of tanks, helicopter gunships and a very well equipped army.
You're also a decent chap.
How can you possibly not see that the Palestinians have a case and are a cause worth fighting for?


CF
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You're an interesting chap, Mark.

Thank you. I think the same of you, Charles.

I'm sure you've read my posts on Israel over the years, the steady catalogue of horrific state atrocities against a bunch of people who are pretty helpless in the face of tanks, helicopter gunships and a very well equipped army.

Yes, a constant one sided deluge.

You're also a decent chap.

Thanks again and once again, I think the same of you.

How can you possibly not see that the Palestinians have a case and are a cause worth fighting for?

I've never said that the Palestinian people don't have a cause worth fighting for except when their cause includes wiping Israel off the map. I disagree with the manner in which they have chosen to fight for their cause and as a result they have lost my sympathy. I also think the Palestinians have made the mistake of allowing themselves to be used as pawns for Arabs in projecting their hatred of Israel.

As I said though, I'm glad that 50% of Brits don't think, "The Israelis are b*****ds."
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I've never said that the Palestinian people don't have a cause worth fighting for except when their cause includes wiping Israel off the map.


As Felix pointed out last week, most Palestinians would be happy to co-exist alongside the Israelis, given an economically viable state of their own. I'm sure they're tired of war and would be happy to abandon the rhetoric of war.
But Israel has to bend significantly and show goodwill - something they haven't been prepared to do.

I disagree with the manner in which they have chosen to fight for their cause and as a result they have lost my sympathy.

I'd love you to suggest how they might have struggled for their rights, Mark.
The facts are that when the Palestinians have been at their most quiescent, Israel has not rewarded this with land or meaningful peace talks but with intense settlement building.
The other alternative, mass civil disobedience, Gandhi-style (as has been suggested by many folk who wouldn't be in the front line when this takes place) would simply lead to mass Palestinian death. I wouldn't be prepared to recommend it to them.



CF
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I've never said that the Palestinian people don't have a cause worth fighting for except when their cause includes wiping Israel off the map.

As Felix pointed out last week, most Palestinians would be happy to co-exist alongside the Israelis, given an economically viable state of their own. I'm sure they're tired of war and would be happy to abandon the rhetoric of war.

Most probably would but they're being used as pawns by their leaders and other Arabs.

But Israel has to bend significantly and show goodwill - something they haven't been prepared to do.

They are not going to concede their security.

I disagree with the manner in which they have chosen to fight for their cause and as a result they have lost my sympathy.

I'd love you to suggest how they might have struggled for their rights, Mark.

I can think of lots ways that don't involve blowing up civilians.

The facts are that when the Palestinians have been at their most quiescent, Israel has not rewarded this with land or meaningful peace talks but with intense settlement building.
The other alternative, mass civil disobedience, Gandhi-style (as has been suggested by many folk who wouldn't be in the front line when this takes place) would simply lead to mass Palestinian death. I wouldn't be prepared to recommend it to them.


How would it lead to mass death? The fact is, what they are doing now is counterproductive. You keep beating someone's toe with tack hammer when he has a sledge in his hand you're being stupid. It can come to no good. Israel really doesn't seem to care if the whole world is against them, they are going to do what they feel they need to do to protect themselves.
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But Israel has to bend significantly and show goodwill - something they haven't been prepared to do.
...............

They are not going to concede their security.



Their security always involves grabbing a little more land that doesn't belong to them, doesn't it, Mark?

I'd love you to suggest how they might have struggled for their rights, Mark.
..............

I can think of lots ways that don't involve blowing up civilians.


Which are......?


The other alternative, mass civil disobedience, Gandhi-style (as has been suggested by many folk who wouldn't be in the front line when this takes place) would simply lead to mass Palestinian death. I wouldn't be prepared to recommend it to them.
.............

How would it lead to mass death?


At this point you lost me, Mark.
Absolutely all the evidence, from the shoot-to-kill policy against Palestinian youths who throw stones to the murder of Rachel Corrie (who tried to stop a bulldozer) to the slaughter by tank shell of peaceful marchers in Rafah, suggests that Israel brooks no signs of resistance to its will by the Palestinians. It is totally prepared to carry out mass murder if necessary.

Peace doesn't work - the Israelis use this to step up the pace of land theft. Passive resistance would lead to mass butchery.

You keep beating someone's toe with tack hammer when he has a sledge in his hand you're being stupid. It can come to no good

This isn't true - at a terrible price to themselves the Palestinians made the cost of holding onto Gaza too high for the Israelis to pay.
The plan to grab the whole of "Judea and Samaria" (I love the way they use Biblical names to establish some form of spurious claim to the land) has also been radically scaled back by Palestinian resistance.


CF


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Just catching up with posts of past few days but wanted to offer this blog link on this topic if anyone is still talking about it:

Article title is Perfidy in Jericho?

http://new-york-loner.livejournal.com/3450.html
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A question:

Is it kosher to fire tank rounds at point-blank range and fire rockets from helicopter gunships into a prison where prisoners are likely locked up in their cells and unable to defend themselves? Under what possible rules of war is is cricket to use artillery and rocket fire as a means of persuasion as opposed to using them in, oh, say, combat? Could this be considered a war crime?

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Thanks for the link!

The “real reason” for the joint US/UK move in Jericho is alluded to in this snippet from the British statement - "The pending handover of governmental power to a political party that has repeatedly called for the release of the Jericho detainees also calls into question the political sustainability of the monitoring mission". The US and the British are reacting to the recent election results in occupied Palestine.
The truth is, Hamas, the election winner, has been observing a cease-fire with Israel for nearly a year now. They appear to haven chosen the ballot over the bullet – for now. By popular demand, Hamas displaced the corruption-ridden Fatah regime. And what has been their reward for all that?
The Israelis were the first to stop the cash flow to the Palestinian Authority, by halting transfer payments on the 55 million/month in tax revenues collected on behalf of the Palestinian Authority.
Then the US actually asked for a cash refund from the PA; the US demanded that some 50 million in past aid to the PA be returned to the US Treasury immediately. The US and the EU have both threatened to cut off economic aid to the impoverished Arabs of Palestine.
How could the PA be expected to comply with US/UK and Israeli demands for upgrading the prison's security systems when the Palestinian Authority is essentially broke?



At the core of the Jericho outrage was Hamas's wipeout of the corrupt Fatah at the elections.
Even worse, Hamas didn't put a foot wrong in the days that followed.
Hell - it looked as though Israel might actually have to TALK to these guys...... and, folks, you know what talks involve.....compromises and concessions.

Neither of which the Israeli Government is even remotely interested in giving.
Far better to do what it's doing - quietly carving up the defensible bits of stolen property on the West Bank, completing its Landgrab Wall and sealing off East Jerusalem from the Palestinians.

So what do they do?

The usual. Do something absolutely unforgivable in the hope of stirring up trouble so that they can shake their heads sadly to America and say "Oy - these Palestinians. They just don't want peace...."

The worst aspect of the Jericho incident is Britain conniving with America and Israel. The Foreign Office, busy brown-nosing with the Bush administration, has now ruined Britain's position as a possible honest broker.
And yesterday Jack Straw lied through his teeth in the House of Commons about the obvious choreography that went on.


CF

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Is it kosher to fire tank rounds at point-blank range and fire rockets from helicopter gunships into a prison where prisoners are likely locked up in their cells and unable to defend themselves? Under what possible rules of war is is cricket to use artillery and rocket fire as a means of persuasion as opposed to using them in, oh, say, combat? Could this be considered a war crime


Come on, Felix - you know the Isarelis don't give a tuppenny toss for the lives of Palestinians. They're boss, they get to do what they like and stuff human rights, stuff basic considerations of morality and decency and stuff international opinion.

Israel is a terrorist state. Why should you expect anything better from a pariah?



CF
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And yesterday Jack Straw lied through his teeth in the House of Commons about the obvious choreography that went on.


CF


Didn't you vote for Labour again, last year? I mean you knew by then that you had been lied before.

Why on earth should you complain now?

Abe
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