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No. of Recommendations: 18
I was born in Michigan, raised in Michigan, went to the University of Michigan and still live in Michigan (have never lived anywhere else). There's a lot to love about this state. You're never less than 6 miles from a body of water of some sort (usually a lake), so the fishing is great! My favorite place in the world is Mackinac Island, it's well worth the 5 hour drive and the additional boat ride. Most of my family is here, as is most of my wife's family. If you want to hunt, a short drive and you're in the woods. Detroit gets lots of knocks, but really it isn't a horrible place... Greektown is amazing! I'm just a hop, skip and a jump from Canada, a country with perhaps the kindest people on the planet (and the girls are cute too, not that I'm looking or anything...)

Yet I'm thinking about leaving, possibly for Arizona. I'm even poking around job opportunties in Arizona. Why? Because the economy here is horrible, and there are no signs of it getting better anytime soon... because we keep electing liberals and the Republicans can't help but kowtow to them.

Case in point, just this past week the State Senate voted to raise the minimum wage to $6.95 on Oct. 1, $7.10 on July 1 of next year and $7.40 on July 1 a year later. Horrible, horrible idea! You don't raise costs to employ people in a state that is in desperate need of jobs! To be fair the Senate didn't have much of a choice, there was a push for an ammendment to the State Constitution to peg the minimum wage to inflation, and it had 80% support (did I mention how many economically naive people live in Michigan?), so this was a "better choice." The lesser of two evils, really. But it is still a horrible idea economically. Then again, given the incredible amount of union members in this state, a large level of economic stupidity is to be expected.

The current governor, (a.k.a. Dominatrix) Granholm wouldn't know a good economic policy if it bit her in the mole. One of our Senators (Stabenow) was recently seen standing in chambers next to a sign that says "Dangerously Incompetent"... a fitting description of her if I've ever seen one. Levin isn't any better. Conyers, that lousy traitor, is from this state as well. Is it any surprise that this state is in an economic shambles when you consider who is representing us?

My wife is pregnant with my son... I can't sacrifice his future on the altar of Liberalism in hopes that sanity will come to Michigan. Therefore I'm seriously considering a move to a place where the economy is actually growing, where unions don't have their death-grip on the economy, where liberals aren't destroying jobs as part of their "greater utopia" plan.

I'm likely going to follow my friends and college classmates, who by and large are no longer living or working in the economic black hole that is Michigan. It would take a miracle to keep me in the state I was born in, the land that I love (there's just quite a few people here I could do without!) My best friend, a fellow Michigander, just got back from a fact-finding trip to Arizona, and he had nothing but good things to say. We might just be moving out there together.

Thanks Libs. I'm sure my son's grandparents will (potentially) enjoy having to travel across the country to visit their first grandson.

Mike
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No. of Recommendations: 16
Yea Mike, it's all the liberals FAULT again.
I suggest you move to India or China where the jobs are going, going, gone.
Or join the military and fight for the bushies.

dw
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No. of Recommendations: 76
Is it any surprise that this state is in an economic shambles when you consider who is representing us?
-----
It's no surprise all states are/will be in economic shambles when you consider policies implemented by the current 'representation' in our nation's capital.



My wife is pregnant with my son... I can't sacrifice his future on the altar of Liberalism in hopes that sanity will come to Michigan.
-----
It won't matter where you move. You're son's future has already been sacrificed, but not on the 'altar of Liberalism'. He has been straddled with the debt this administration has created & will leave for him. (Debt created out of a surplus, mind you.)






Rich
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No. of Recommendations: 6
I suggest you move to India or China where the jobs are going, going, gone.

Nah, I'll stick with Arizona, where jobs are being created and there's no union whining about outsourcing and other subjects they can't comprehend (basically anything beyond how to open another beer and not work from what I can see.)

Or join the military and fight for the bushies.

Actually, the Border Patrol is a possibility. Not exactly "the military", but given the various firefights drug running illegal aliens have been staging on the border it isn't all that different. I mean, you have bad guys with weapons asking to be killed in both instances... just less travel via the Border Patrol.

Mike
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No. of Recommendations: 8
It's no surprise all states are/will be in economic shambles when you consider policies implemented by the current 'representation' in our nation's capital.

You mean letting the people who create jobs keep more money and create more jobs? A recipe for disaster! Well, the fact that it's working in most of the country must be an anomaly.

It won't matter where you move. You're son's future has already been sacrificed, but not on the 'altar of Liberalism'. He has been straddled with the debt this administration has created & will leave for him. (Debt created out of a surplus, mind you.)

Surplus on paper, debt on paper, number juggling and fearmongering... usw. I don't worry if the government has money, there's plenty they can cut (stuff that isn't justified Constitutionally) and, hopefully, will be forced to cut to live within their means. My job is to raise my son not to be part of the money-grubing welfare mentality problem.

A good dose of personal responsibility, a private school education and a view of live lived via Conservative values (Capitalism, respect for religion, pro-life, etc.) should do the trick. While living in Michigan would no doubt give him an up-close view of the negative effects of liberalism run rampant (<cough>Detroit/Flint/Saginaw/Bay City/UAW/etc.</cough>) it's probably a safer view from afar. You don't have to be right in the middle of the tornado to see that it's bad news.

Mike
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No. of Recommendations: 58
My family is from Michigan. My dad grew up in Flint. He worked for Buick. He worked for GM when it was the greatest company in the whole world, bar none.

Flint has been broken for a long time, and liberals had nothing to do with it. Suits at GM who decided to build cheap crappy cars but price them like their emerging foreign competitors superior products and "buy American" flag wavers who bought these ureliable, gas guzzling pieces of crap instead of demanding something better had a lot to do with it.

Anyway, Bloomfield Hills and the like aren't broken. Maybe you should move out there. Maybe the capitalists will let you mow their lawn if you agree to take $5.00 an hour. You could strike a secret deal with them to do the deed for less than the minimum wage. My lips are sealed.
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No. of Recommendations: 3
Wait a second! That original post wasn't a convoluted joke? People are still that dense?

Wow!

Ken
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No. of Recommendations: 45
You mean letting the people who create jobs keep more money and create more jobs?
-----

I keep hearing this line of BS. The only part that's true is the "keep more money" part.

Oh, sorry... they are creating more jobs -- in India!






Rich
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No. of Recommendations: 4
Have relatives in Michigan and it is a great place. Out here in Arizona it has been booming, don't know how that will hold up know that the housing market has gone from 40% price increases last year to "Reduced Price" signs.

Minimum wage the problem? The unions? The unions have a long way to come down to match this competition. For some reason the People's Republic of China isn't even listed. The People's Republic. Now there is some real socialism for you.

The kind the RepubliCrats like. For some reason both parties decided to throw Michigan workers into a completely unfair and completely hopeless fight against them Chinese and Indians. Go figure, maybe it's because the corporations lay alot of money on the RepubliCrats--and you didn't?

Anyway, 3 million manufacturing gone. 1.3 million net new private sector payrolls in five years. Quite a few of them here in Arizona.

Unbelievably bad, minimum wage has nothing to do with that. Lots of minimum wage jobs in Michigan--and here in Arizona. Sun is out, again, today.

India not listed. Too embarassing for the "free traders" and the folks who love the Everyday Low Price. How low does it have to be when you don't have a job, or your real income is falling year after year? Ah, the Davos crowd. No Labor there.

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/ForeignLabor/ichccsuppt01.txt

Table 1. Indexes of hourly compensation costs in U.S. dollars for production workers in manufacturing, 32 countries or areas and selected economic groups 1975-2004

(Index, U.S. = 100)

2004

Mexico.....11

Korea......50

Brazil.... 13




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No. of Recommendations: 0
Before you head out to Arizona, you might look at the projected average nighttime temporatures. When the mega metropolis, ie, giant suburb that is there grows another 100%, the temps overnight won't go below 100 degrees !!

You can have it.

I like Florida and am a transplanted Wisconsinite.

michael
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No. of Recommendations: 12
Blaming the Dems for the current state of affairs, ignoring the 26 years years of nearly uninterrupted Republican occupancy in the White House, the Republican deficit, the incompetence of GM Ford and Chrysler (all truly Demo outfits, you betcha) is like blaming Lance Ito for Nicole Simpson's death.

Get a grip. And then you go on to say what's wrong with giving people who create jobs more of their money? And you live in Michigan? Can you connect the dots? Tax breaks to the wealthy and super-rich have been shown to be the least-effective economic stimulus one can imagine.

LOL. Go to Arizona. The people of Michigan will thank you. And those folks now ruining Arizona will welcome you. Of course, since you love Michigan's water so much, and hate government hand-outs, I hope you'll stand up to Uncle Sam providing you with water in Arizona at subsidized cost.
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No. of Recommendations: 0
ignoring the 26 years years of nearly uninterrupted Republican occupancy in the White House

8 years is a big interrruption.
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No. of Recommendations: 0
8 years is a big interrruption.

Just like Ike.
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No. of Recommendations: 0
Just like Ike.

He was not President in the past 26 years. But you are correct in that he was President for a total of 8 years.

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No. of Recommendations: 1
It sounds like you pretty much hate everything about Michigan. 80% of the people are stupid, you despise unions, even the massively republican dominated congress isn't right wing enough.

The head of the Michigan Militia recently moved to Alaska, you might check them out too.
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No. of Recommendations: 3
My turn. This is my second venture into Michigan, having lived here from '84 to '90 and now from '02 to the present day.

I think we wouldn't NEED an increase in the minimum wage if, we could keep and attract businesses that would provide higher paying jobs. So far, I have heard a lot of complaining about Michigan's Single Business Tax, but I've asked "what's the alternative?".

From: http://www.michiganinbrief.org/edition07/Chapter5/TaxesonBus.htm

The SBT took effect in 1976 as a replacement for seven business taxes, of which the largest three were the corporate income tax, personal property tax on inventory, and corporate franchise tax. Not only has the SBT added stability to the Michigan tax structure, but it has exhibited reasonably good growth potential: Collections rose from about $800 million in the levy's first full year (FY 1976–77) to about $2.2 billion in FY 2000–01. The latter figure is down from about $2.5 billion in the prior year due to the 0.1 percent rate reduction and the weak Michigan economy.

Single business tax receipts comprised about 9 percent of all state tax revenue when the levy went into effect, rose to a high of 17.5 percent in 1988, and now are back to 9 percent. The exhibit shows the distribution of SBT revenue by industry class for FY 1997–98 (latest data available). Manufacturing provides the largest part of SBT revenue, roughly 39 percent, but in the last decade its share has declined from about 55 percent. In comparison, the services sector's share rose from about 10 percent to 18 percent.

In theory, a value-added tax should extract a contribution from all firms, regardless of organization, size, or business type. In practice, however, more than half the businesses in Michigan do not have an SBT liability largely because of an exemption for small firms and the deduction for capital investment; about 75 percent of the tax is paid by 5 percent of the firms. The SBT's actual effective rate (after credits, exemptions, and deductions are applied) is 1.57 percent; it rises from 0.2 percent for the smallest firms to 1.98 percent for businesses with a tax base exceeding $100 million. (These calculations are based on FY 1997–98 data and do not reflect subsequent revisions to the SBT, but the changes probably have not substantially altered the tax's effective rate.)


(Bolding mine.)

Critics of the SBT say it's a killer. Well, if you get rid of it, would you want to go back to the "old way", or something different? I think there would end up being a tax, no matter how you slice it. That is, the government is still going to come back and say "we need something to still provide revenue". The state government isn't just going to pull back and drop all taxation on businesses.

And I've asked this before, if the SBT is so bad, why has it still stayed in existence for 30 years? That's even through multiple recessions and at least how many changes in governors and legislators?

So what now?

I don't think I have the answer, and I can understand in general why raising the minimum wage isn't a good thing. But I see the minimum wage raise as a side effect to all the possible causes of the economic problems in Michigan.

Would DeVos get rid of the SBT? What else would he do? I don't know.


Just some idle thoughts.


Duck
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No. of Recommendations: 2
It's no surprise all states are/will be in economic shambles when you consider policies implemented by the current 'representation' in our nation's capital.

Nope, the economy is booming where it is allowed to do so.

Consider moving to Texas. We are doing great, and we've already assimliated a number of Michiganders. There is a new housing development springing up ever few months where I live. You can get a 4 bedroom 2 full bath, 2 story house with a nice plot of land and all the trimmings in the suburbs for $200,000. Think about it.

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No. of Recommendations: 2
Colovion says

Nah, I'll stick with Arizona, where jobs are being created and there's no union whining about outsourcing and other subjects they can't comprehend (basically anything beyond how to open another beer and not work from what I can see.)

You won't be happy in Arizona either. You are sure to find that, one way or another, it is full of people inferior to yourself who will not do things the way you tell them to. Someone suggested Alaska. You'd hate that too. I don't think you'll be happy no matter where you live -- you're just that kind of guy.

crassfool
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No. of Recommendations: 7
Nope, the economy is booming where it is allowed to do so.

LOL! Another free-marketer, right?

Of course the fact that Texas gets back 102% of the federal taxes they pay and Michigan only gets back 89% of the federal taxes they pay is a non-issue.

You Texans are on the public dole.

AW
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No. of Recommendations: 0
When the mega metropolis, ie, giant suburb that is there grows another 100%, the temps overnight won't go below 100 degrees !!

But it'll be a dry heat!

Mike
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No. of Recommendations: 0
It sounds like you pretty much hate everything about Michigan. 80% of the people are stupid, you despise unions, even the massively republican dominated congress isn't right wing enough.

To be fair it isn't the state I don't like, it's mostly the people in the southeast corner of the state I don't care too much for. After all, Granholm would not be the governor if it wasn't for Wayne county.

Mike
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No. of Recommendations: 0
Table 1. Indexes of hourly compensation costs in U.S. dollars for production workers in manufacturing, 32 countries or areas and selected economic groups 1975-2004

Gee, that's about as relevant as pulling up the compensation costs for agricultural workers at the beginning of the industrial revolution. It's funny how technological revolutions make the older ways of doing business irrelevant to the future economy... unless you're stuck in the past of course.

Those who fail to learn from economic history are destined to be bowled under by economic progress. Michigan is still hitching it's horse to manufacturing, which is akin to being a buggy whip maker at the beginning of the automobile era. The 1960's economic playbook won't fly in 2010, no matter how much the Democrats and the Unions want it to.

All your data tells me is that manufacturing is NOT the way to go, which is what it should tell any rational person. When it comes to fighting economic progress you might as well be tilting at windmills.

Mike
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No. of Recommendations: 3
Great post and all the best as you do what's best for your family. If everyone else did the same we wouldn't be in the entitlement and social mess we're in now.

Yes, parts of Michigan, even Detroit are great. Homes in the West Bloomfield, Bloomfield Hills area are still a decent value compared to other areas in the country with lesser school systems. Greektown? I take it you enjoy Pizza Papalis? And of course the good ol Joe Louis Arena and the Wings.

Indeed I agree, Michigan's power elite are clueless and Liberal.

Best uf luck!

Jedi



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No. of Recommendations: 0
To be fair it isn't the state I don't like, it's mostly the people in the southeast corner of the state I don't care too much for.

Right, so the people that support the rest of the state financially you don't like. Got it. Big surprise there.
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No. of Recommendations: 7
Uh......Republicans control the state legislature. When Granholm took over, she had the wonderful burden of the FatTurd Engler deficit and debt to try to overcome. Methinks Michigan's current economy may well be a harbinger of the Bush economic legacy.

FWIW, I do hear jobs are BOOMING in China! The conservatives SO love their free trade, so why not REALLY go where the jobs are!

Bush is the worst President in the history of the US.
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No. of Recommendations: 4

It's no surprise all states are/will be in economic shambles when you consider policies implemented by the current 'representation' in our nation's capital.





Florida unemployment falls to 3 percent; lowest in three decades

The Associated Press


Florida's unemployment rate dropped to 3 percent in January, the lowest in 30 years, and it continues to lead the nation in new jobs, the state's labor agency reported Thursday.

Florida's unemployment rate is the lowest among the nation's 10 most populated states.

"Florida's unmatched quality of life, sensible tax structure, and skilled workforce have enticed businesses to relocate or expand to the state," Gov. Jeb Bush said Thursday. "Florida has become a place for entrepreneurs to build their dreams."

http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060309/APN/603090925
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No. of Recommendations: 56
Case in point, just this past week the State Senate voted to raise the minimum wage to $6.95 on Oct. 1, $7.10 on July 1 of next year and $7.40 on July 1 a year later. Horrible, horrible idea! You don't raise costs to employ people in a state that is in desperate need of jobs!

I'm also in Michigan, born and raised. That's why I know you are full of it.

You misunderstand the effects of minimum wage hikes. Michigan isn't in need of minimum wage jobs for one thing. The jobs that are leaving are manufacturing; hardly minimum wage fare.

At the same time, a raise puts more money into the pockets of minimum wage workers, who are among the most likley to spend every cent they earn. The money goes to buy goods and services - maybe even cars. There is limited evidence that minimum wage hikes do adversely affect very specific industries like fast food, and even then only in specific areas. But there is also evidence that this is outweight by the positive effects. Labor, as so many ameteur anti-minimum wage economists are loathe to acknowledge, is a unique commodity - unique in that it consumses itself. Lots of people don't understand that.

As for the economic condition of Detroit and Michigan, look no further than the auto companies. Michigan lost the Toyota plant to Ontario. Why? Better educated workers, and no need to pay for their health care. And the plant closings are due to auto company mismanagement, not pensions as so many ignorant ideologues would have you believe.

I demonstrated such in this post: http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=23607575

From it:

Wixom shut down because people aren't buying Lincolns:
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/012206/loc_2006012201.shtml

The St. Louis plant shut down because fewer people want full size SUVs like Mountaineers and Explorers:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/stories.nsf/0/5D1499C2931DAA6B862570FF0055956E?OpenDocument

The Hapeville plant shut down because people don't want to buy the bland and boring Taurus:
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/6366044/detail.html

Now, you can blame this situation on the "Dominatrix" governor like a good little misogynistic right-winger, but you'll be just as wrong as if you blamed it on unions, teachers, Arabs, or Teletubbies. The problem is that the capitalists in charge of the industry on which our economy depends have turned in a right lousy performance, and are now being punished - exactly the way capitalism is designed to do.

Problem is (and this is a problem inherent to American style capitalism) many of the rest of us are being punished right along with them.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
All your data tells me is that manufacturing is NOT the way to go, which is what it should tell any rational person. When it comes to fighting economic progress you might as well be tilting at windmills.

Mike


Toyota
Nissan
Honda

They have all taken to manufacturing autos and trunks in the US and Canada in new facilities at fair wages .... seem to be doing fine, creating thousands of jobs and jobs in the support industries ....

Could it be a Detroit Problem?

Bears
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No. of Recommendations: 0
..Those who fail to learn from economic history are destined to be bowled under by economic progress. Michigan is still hitching it's horse to manufacturing, which is akin to being a buggy whip maker at the beginning of the automobile era...

Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. Liberals, liberals liberals.

Actually Michigan is desperately trying to diversify, using taxpayer dollars. The dreaded "liberal" Gov. Granholm is doing that. Solar panel manufacturers etc. etc. Exactly the kind of government-picks-the-winners that has always been a disaster.

Help us liberals out.

You say the Michigan economy stinks 25 years after the Reagan Revolution and lately the Bush Ownership Society. Tax cuts, Jobs and Growth. You don't like the liberals.

What would Jedi do? Specifically, that's different from what is happening.

I know. Easier to write about "liberals" like that means anything these days. Complain about minimum wage when there are tons of minimum wage (and higher) service industry jobs to be had. Easier to blame labor when some business folks are so incredibly hapless they can't get 6 dollars an hour out of their employees. Subsidize me! Repeal that horrible 6 dollar an hour minimum wage--that all my competitors have to pay.

Come on out to Phoenix! The streets are paved with gold cuz no liberals here!
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No. of Recommendations: 2
Michigan with a growing economy under Engler or a flatlined one under Granholm.... I'll have to go with Engler.

http://tinyurl.com/oupvq

Michigan should be asking: What would John do?
By Nolan Finley

Excerpts:

A gullible public is the best friend of a weak politician. Those who believe Granholm is struggling under the weight of Engler's incompetence are ignoring the historical facts.

...

When Engler left office after 12 years in 2002, Michigan enjoyed an as-good-as-it-gets AAA bond rating. Unemployment was below the national average, something that hadn't happened before he took office and hasn't happened since.

Granholm walked in the door to find a balanced budget, thanks to executive order cuts Engler made in the last three months of his term in response to a deteriorating economy.

She also was handed a state that was far healthier than Engler found when he arrived and immediately had to cover a $330 million budget shortfall.

Under Engler's leadership, Michigan cut taxes for both businesses and individuals, and slashed the state payroll as well.

Unlike the current governor, who promised to make education a priority, Engler never cut university appropriations. And he trimmed K-12 spending only in the last months of his term, and then only after a 10-year run in which funding for public schools increased at three times the rate of inflation.

...

Still, if you believe Engler left her a state in shambles, the next question has to be, "What's Granholm done to clean it up?"


What has she done indeed.

Mike
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No. of Recommendations: 1
They have all taken to manufacturing autos and trunks in the US and Canada in new facilities at fair wages .... seem to be doing fine, creating thousands of jobs and jobs in the support industries ....

Could it be a Detroit Problem?


Do you mean to suggest that the American auto companies might not be managed well? Traitor! How dare you blame business for problems that can be scapegoated on unions, minorities or liberals. One more outburst like this and you can kiss your conservative credentials goodbye, buddy.
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No. of Recommendations: 2
Michigan with a growing economy under Engler or a flatlined one under Granholm.... I'll have to go with Engler

Have you bothered to look at how this correlates with the national economy, Einstein?
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Do you mean to suggest that the American auto companies might not be managed well? Traitor! How dare you blame business for problems that can be scapegoated on unions, minorities or liberals. One more outburst like this and you can kiss your conservative credentials goodbye, buddy.

Hey - as a conservative, I find myself agreeing with you as well. Detroit's problems are much more about incompentent management than they are about the unions. There's nothing but crap that rolls off the assembly lines at GM and Ford and that's not the fault of American auto worker.
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One of our Senators (Stabenow) was recently seen standing in chambers next to a sign that says "Dangerously Incompetent"... a fitting description of her if I've ever seen one

Stabenow??? Is that Debbie Stabenow? Used to be a state rep back in the late 70's, early 80's? Used to have a drink or two with her every now and then when I was interning for Tom Scott in the State House. Don't remember her very well but the name sounds familiar. The one I rmember the best was a black woman representing a Detroit district, think the name was Colins. We were both science fiction fans and so had some interesting discussions during the after work bull sessions that used to go on at the hotel bar. Think her name was Collins. I stopped following MI politics when I moved back to PA.

herb
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Uh......Republicans control the state legislature. When Granholm took over, she had the wonderful burden of the FatTurd Engler deficit and debt to try to overcome. Methinks Michigan's current economy may well be a harbinger of the Bush economic legacy.
***

Fine. Blame Repubs.

So you credit Repubs in the 90's, and admit CLinton had nothing to do with it.

Cool.

jedi
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What would Jedi do? (How did I get into this??)

:)

BTW... loved the Marsha Marsha thing. Good one.

Yes I admit to still watching the show. She was quite a dish.

Jedi
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No. of Recommendations: 1
Part of it is the continued slavery induced by Liberalism in the inner city of Detroit.

As long as whole population centers are held back by, and dependant on the Left, it will hurt everyone.

Jedi
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No. of Recommendations: 1
..Toyota
Nissan
Honda

Could it be a Detroit Problem?
Bears


Bears, the Chinese are on their way, sooner rather than later. They are currently doing alot to protect their fledgling auto industry (protectionism!!) but it won't be long before Toyota and Honda, Alabama, won't be so smug.

Let's see what the Japanese do when they get their first real competition in decades. Their (well protected) Japanese operations already look like GM and Ford Detroit do. Aging workforce, huge pension and health liabilities.

Why do you think they came here to the US? Dump those home manufacturing legacy costs, which is exactly what they have been doing in Japan. Just like the corporations are doing here in the US--dumping their costs on the taxpayer.

Medicare Part D drugs. Pension Guaranty Corp. Wal-Mart on Arizona Medicaid. Granholm spending Michigan tax dollars trying to compete and keep an employment and tax base. Yep, Chinese wages are irrelevant. Good God.
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Herb...

I think you refer to Barbara Rose-Collins.

Jedi
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He was not President in the past 26 years. But you are correct in that he was President for a total of 8 years.

Ike was the one exception in a nearly interrupted 36 year period of Democratic control of the White House. Of course, his influence on the direction the Cold War was to take was much larger than Clinton's influence on the post Soviet era, I venture to guess.
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Stabenow??? Is that Debbie Stabenow? Used to be a state rep back in the late 70's, early 80's? Used to have a drink or two with her every now and then when I was interning for Tom Scott in the State House. Don't remember her very well but the name sounds familiar. The one I rmember the best was a black woman representing a Detroit district, think the name was Colins. We were both science fiction fans and so had some interesting discussions during the after work bull sessions that used to go on at the hotel bar. Think her name was Collins. I stopped following MI politics when I moved back to PA.

That's the one. She beat Spencer Abraham (thank the lord) and is now the other half of Michigan's Senatorial delegation (with Carl Levin).

I believe the Collins you are thinking of is Barbara Rose Collins. She was a City Council member in Detroit for a while, then was elected to the US House. I remember her because she is an anti-gay bigot who fired a homosexual man out of fear he had AIDS. She lost re-election and is now back on the City Council. Her seat went to Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, mommy of the current Mayor. Barb, Carolyn and Kwame are all pretty much worthless.
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CheeryO...

We differ on many things but on this one... does it seem to you that inteligentsia on the NeoCon side, and the Liberal side are starting to realize the true cost of surrendering economic sovereignty?

Sure does to me.

Some of us used to warn about this 15 years ago when we were lectured on the grandiose visions of globalism.

Bottom line: My prediction of a $8.00 per hour American middle class is on the way.

Jedi
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IN the 90's, a great lady named Sharon McPhail never got traction.

Had she been Mayor, things may have improved.

Jedi
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Part of it is the continued slavery induced by Liberalism in the inner city of Detroit.

When you compare the economic conditions of Detroiters to "slavery", you only show your own ignorance about both subjects.

The majestic insipidness of your statement reminds me of another doozie I came across today:

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=23836610

Ride that pony, brave Jedi.
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Easier to blame labor when some business folks are so incredibly hapless they can't get 6 dollars an hour out of their employees.

I thought that our wonderful educational system was supposed to create people worth more than $6/hour... now it's the business owner's job to do this? Great, let them pay the people what their labor is actually worth! They'll eventually make $6 an hour, when they earn it. But I suppose it is more "compassionate" to make people whose labor is less than $6 an hour (or $7.40/hour) unemployable. And the fact that the "higher wages" of the UAW are contractually tied to the minimum wage would have nothing to do with their support for it being raised. Nope, no inflation to worry about, no shortage of jobs, no problems at all!

It's all about helping the poor! Helping them not get jobs, apparently. Surely their labor's value to the business world increases based on government fiat. Why not set the minimum wage at $100,000 per year and make everyone rich? Oh, economic reality would be a bit too inconvenient then...

I don't look to the government to create jobs. I don't want them to even try to do that. It isn't their job. Their job is to get out of the way and let the economy flourish. How exactly do tax cuts kill jobs? What is the mechanism for this argument? There is certainly an argument for how tax cuts can lead to job creation, it's happening in other states after all. Is it so impossible to believe that tax cuts are an opportunity that Michigan has managed not to take advantage of while other states have, and that thus Michigan's economic problems are not the result of any Federal actions but rather those of State and Local governments?

I admit it, I'm not of the Federal government in-loco-parentis camp, I don't worship the government as the solution to all problems, the savior of mankind and the only entity able to protect me from the big, bad Capitalists. If something goes wrong, my first thought isn't to blame the Administration in charge, especially when there's no compelling argument as to how they could be to blame. Tax cuts to the rich? Who cares! Some guy making more than me sending less money to Washington D.C. isn't hurting my checkbook, especially if that guy happens to own my company! Where's my tax cut? I don't pay very much in taxes, there isn't much to cut, I also don't pay nearly as much in taxes. This class warfare stuff doesn't fly with me, I'm don't see myself as the victim in any of this, nor should I. It's all hype, no substance.

Here's what I do see: Two areas of the country struggling mightilly with economic issues. One, the Lousiana/Alabama area, because of the massive devestation caused by a natural disaster (I know, Bush didn't make the storm turn!), the other being Michigan, wedded to a dying industry of a bygone era with a Democrat led leadership (and a spineless Republican legislature, to be fair) that talks like it knows what it has to do but invariably does just the opposite, blaming everyone else but themselves for their failure.

The difference is that I fully expect the hurricane damage to be repaired. Michigan is another story, too many people who "get it" are leaving for greener pastures, perhaps realizing that there are too many people that don't get it, and taking the time to teach them differently is time that could be better spent succeeding elsewhere. It's no secret that there is a massive brain-drain going on in Michigan, thousands upon thousands of people (mostly college grads) are leaving the state, it is losing population. It doesn't take a genius to see what is happening!

Mike
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Ziege...

Back to the typical liberal accusation of "ignorance". lol. Why not use the other Lefty line: "Hoisted on your own petard".

Sorry Z, to compassionate elite-wanabee Liberals, generations of dependance and poverty and crime maybe a sweet deal but to me, it is slavery. And slavery after Emancipation is a great crime.

Ignorance? Have you ever been at the same conference table with NAACP leaders, ex Mayor Coleman Young, and the ACLU as they talked about all-boy public schools in Detroit, where teachers would be role models and father figures? Have you been in the inner circle where Dennis Archer or Kwami Kilpatrick sit around and plan how to screw things up? (Archer actually meant well)

Sorry sonny, but there are some things you don't know about me, or my background or past pursuits. I've been intimately involved with some of these idiots and seen 1st hand how they conspire to keep their consituents down and dependant.

It is slavery. But hey, they vote Democrat right? Makes it ok. Keep throwing social programs at them every 4 years.

Jedi
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Herb...

I think you refer to Barbara Rose-Collins.

Jedi


Yeah, that was her. Bif sf fan. Don't know about her legislative ability tho, never had to work with her. Only remember her from the after work sessions and the fact she asked me if I had been planning to attend WorldCon one year.

herb
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Back to the typical liberal accusation of "ignorance".

Absolutely. You think Detroiters are "slaves". Doesn't get much more ignorant than that. Don't blame me or The Left; blame yourself for saying something so patently dumb. If you hear this accusation so often that it feels "typical" to you, maybe there's a reason. Just saying.

Sorry sonny, but there are some things you don't know about me, or my background or past pursuits.

There's a lot I don't know about you. In fact, one of the only things I know about you is that you are the kind of person who would say something so vastly stupid as Detroiters are "slaves". And the only reason I know that is because you've told me. I'm not assuming anything about you other than what you've told me.

A word of critical advice for your performance art: You're much less obvious when you're performing the "Eurabia" act. This "blacks are slaves" one reveals far too much about your true motivations.
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Fine. Blame Repubs.

Well, Engler DID wreck the budget. Period. He left the mess for Granholm to clean up. Now the State doesn't have sufficient bucks to try to lure employers here.....while in Illinois, they are tossing around grants like Mardi Gras beads.

I know, because I am working on a deal with a friend who wants to set up a new manufacturing business, and wants to stay in Mich, but the dollars aren't there. (Oh, he is a Republican too.....and I regularly kid him about going to the governments for handouts).

So you credit Repubs in the 90's, and admit CLinton had nothing to do with it.

On a state or national level? Here in Mich, the Reps were in control of everything......Gov., legislature, judiciary.....and now the State is a mess.

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Liberalism killing Michigan

First Terry Schiavo, now Michigan, who's next?
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Ziege...

Whole constituencies who constitently support Liberalism, yet are still poor, crime ridden and dependant. In my book that is slavery.

Apparently it doesn't bug you as much.

Which I know, as you are a Liberal.

Congrats. You are breeding more voters for your side.

Also noted is your obession with defining of slavery. Even if it wasn't slavery, I'd say it kinda sucks.

So in response, pass a program. Remind your constituency to keep voting for you, or else.

Detroit and other cities are evidence of Liberalism unchecked.

Emancipation? Far from it.

On my Eurabia act. It isn't an act. It's happening. Tee hee.

Jedi
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Detroit and other cities are evidence of Liberalism unchecked.

No, Detroit is evidence of corruption. Mayor Young did some good for the city, but he should have left office years before he died. The corruption and cronyism is unbelievable.

BTW, Jedi, I saw that you like Sharon Mcphail. Seriously? I don't live in Detroit, so I don't know much about her, but I always thought she was just a crony of Coleman Young.
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Whole constituencies who constitently support Liberalism, yet are still poor, crime ridden and dependant. In my book that is slavery.

Well if that's the book you've been working from for the past few years, that would explain a LOT.

Also noted is your obession with defining of slavery. Even if it wasn't slavery, I'd say it kinda sucks.

Project much? You're the one calling Detroiters "slaves". That would indicate more of a fixation that correcting someone who made that mistake.

Detroit and other cities are evidence of Liberalism unchecked.

Just shows how complete is your inability to grasp the reality of Detroit. Detroit was the first major city to be completely formed by modern industrial capitalism. Everything else follows from there. It's a nearly laboratory-quality experiment in capitalism.

On my Eurabia act. It isn't an act. It's happening. Tee hee.

Yup, sure it is. Just like it happened to America back when your intellectual forefathers said it would.

Personally, I think when people's biggest fear is of other cultures it says more about them than it does about anything else. But what do I know, I'm just a former slave.
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No, Detroit is evidence of corruption. Mayor Young did some good for the city, but he should have left office years before he died. The corruption and cronyism is unbelievable.

Coleman Young was a corrupt and terrible mayor.

Dennis Archer did a pretty damn good job with the mess he inherited.

Kwame Kilpatrick is working on outdoing Coleman Young on corruption and incompetence. I could. not. frikken. believe. they reelected that douchebag.
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FWIW, I do hear jobs are BOOMING in China! The conservatives SO love their free trade, so why not REALLY go where the jobs are!

Actually, a lot of them are going there. For example, Wal-Mart has a dozen stores there already.
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And the plant closings are due to auto company mismanagement, not pensions as so many ignorant ideologues would have you believe.

Union folks love making that claim, as if properly assigning blame is going to save their jobs when the company goes under.

Meanwhile, that auto workers have most lavish health and pension plans of any group in the country and refuse to bargan about them is only coincidental.

No, the original poster is right. Michiganders are completely ignorant when it comes to economics. Willfully so, it would seem.

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What would Jedi do? Specifically, that's different from what is happening.

I don't know about Jedi, but I'd get a right to work law passed and then watch the economy take off like a rocket.
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There's nothing but crap that rolls off the assembly lines at GM and Ford and that's not the fault of American auto worker.

After Ford and GM gets done paying pensions and health care there's very little money left for development. It's a burden that foreign auto makers like the Japanese don't have.

If I were the management of Ford and GM I'd declare bankruptcy now and save time. Better to have a judge telling the unions what's what.

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Because I didn't know what “right-to-work laws are ...

Right-to-work laws are statutes enforced in several US States, which prohibit several types of deals between employers and unionized employees, such as union security. "Closed shops", "union shops" and "agency shops" are forbidden, and "open shops" are enforced.
------
Levels of unionization are typically much lower in right-to-work states, and so are average wages. Job fatalities average about 30% higher in these states than the rest of the country, and 15 of the 20 states with the highest rates for on the job fatalities were right-to-work. It is not clear whether these are a consequence of lack of unionization, or whether both follow from a poor overall bargaining position for workers in these states or the low standard of living in many of these states compared to other states. Conventional wisdom, however, supports the view that by weakening the support for unions, right-to-work laws have consistently reduced wages, health benefits, and job conditions.


http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Right-to-work
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First Terry Schiavo, now Michigan, who's next?

The latest is that they killed Milosovic so he couldn't reveal the dark secrets of the Clinton admin.

I'm hoping they get around to Scott Stapp eventually.
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After Ford and GM gets done paying pensions and health care there's very little money left for development. It's a burden that foreign auto makers like the Japanese don't have.

Do you have any clue what the R&D budgets of Ford and GM are?
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Michiganders are completely ignorant when it comes to economics.

I really love when conservatives slip up and reveal how they really think. It says so much about them - and the conclusions they come to.
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Yes, parts of Michigan, even Detroit are great. Homes in the West Bloomfield, Bloomfield Hills area are still a decent value compared to other areas in the country with lesser school systems. Greektown? I take it you enjoy Pizza Papalis? And of course the good ol Joe Louis Arena and the Wings.

I'm a bigger fan of Hellas in Greektown as far as authentic greek food, but I won't turn down Pizza Papalis! And the Wings... I was a fan during the Dead Thing era. The Fox Theater district of Detroit looks great... if only you didn't have to drive through the rest of it to get there (those pot-holes can eat your car I swear.)

Indeed I agree, Michigan's power elite are clueless and Liberal.

Of course they are. Granholm is a case in point. Then there's the entire administration of Detroit (mayor, city council, the whole shebang). There really is a major disconnect between Detroit and the suburbs, it isn't that they're incapable of working together but rather neither side trusts the other. Anything the suburbs want is considered racist by the council (their words, not mine!) Anything Detroit wants is, well, destined to fail as it has time after time since the days of Coleman "A" Young's first thug mayordom right through King Kwame's thug mayordom. Archer was the lone bright spot, and it isn't a coincidence that the state under Engler and the city of Detroit under Archer both made great strides forward. I wouldn't call Archer a Conservative, but he certainly wasn't as corrupt as the mayor before and the one after him (both of whom are worshipped by Detroiters for some unknown reason).

Most of the rest of the state is pretty conservative, it just so happens that most of the population is in the liberal part of the state (the Detroit/Flint/Ann Arbor metro-area). They keep falling for the same failed promises year after year, all the while blaming everyone but the politicians making the same failed promises and running the area into the ground. The rest of the state suffers for it. I'm sure they'd just as soon let Ohio annex the entire area, but Ohio wouldn't want it! Maybe we can give it to Canada... just rejigger the Treaty of Ghent and redraw the lines a bit!

Mike
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Could it be a Detroit Problem?

Do you mean to suggest that the American auto companies might not be managed well? Traitor! How dare you blame business for problems that can be scapegoated on unions, minorities or liberals. One more outburst like this and you can kiss your conservative credentials goodbye, buddy.


That whole bucket has holes in it

From the Auto industry that laughed at that first ugly Honda and ignored the first 240Z. They never dreamed that Toyota would be the #2 automaker in the world, ready to take over GMs #1 spot .... and it all started when? less than 30 years ago?

To the Unions that refused to give in to the closing of old and tired factories and accepting that automation required less workers.

To having retires that have full health benefits rather than medicare and a good supplement policy like the rest of the world. $$$$

And then there is the talk of US jobs going overseas ...

What jobs?

The Steel mills left with the oil embargo of the 70s and of course those snap on the Barbie heads type jobs. And yes, the knitting mills and other US sweat shops.

And now we lose those mass market phone callers to India, making shoes, cheap furniture, toys ... labor intensive low profit items.

But we make more and more of the higher-end industrial goods, from aircraft to heavy machinery to medical equipment and agricultural machinery.

Even when you look at items we grumble about like Personal computers Chinese and Mexican assembly plants, the high-value component — the microprocessor —and other components usually comes from a U.S. factory.

The actual trade balance numbers show that yes, we import much more than we export, but that is due to consumer goods. If you look at the High end industrial goods segment, the trade is again about balanced.

And if you look at the food, pharmaceutical and almost any industry that has the volume and has been allowed to upgrade itself into modern, automated, hi-tech facilities, the products are still made here. If it can be made at a profit here, it is made at a profit here.

The US Car Manufactures ... They just are not lean and mean like the Asians building factories in the US.

And Sorry, lean and mean means less people to make the cars.

Bears
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Barb, Carolyn and Kwame are all pretty much worthless.

I think this is something we can all agree on. Though I bet a few strippers would disagree... they've probably made plenty off of one of these individuals.

Mike
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I think this is something we can all agree on. Though I bet a few strippers would disagree... they've probably made plenty off of one of these individuals.

Until they mysteriously turn up dead:

http://www.morelaw.com/verdicts/case.asp?n=Unknown&s=MI%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&d=30711
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My dad graduated from high school in Flint Michigan in 1932. I don't know how he got in at Buick then but he was lucky. He lived in a group house with 14 people and he paid all the rent.

Know why?

Because he was the only one with a job, that's why. The unemployment rate was 25%. Five million people in the U.S. voted for Socialists in a Presidential election. That's how the evil liberals got control in the first place, 'cause there were group houses with fourteen residents and one job.

So now, with the unemployment rate nationally at 4.9% or something I am hearing that the liberals are ruining Michigan by raising the minimum wage by an amount equal to half a cup of Starbucks coffee?

Unbelievable.
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You think Detroiters are "slaves".

Slaves? If you don't like that term (it's not very P.C. I admit), how about sheeple?

What great "progress" has the Detroit voter achieved since 1968? What wonderful outcomes have their repeated support of the corrupt mayors (excluding Archer) achieved? The Lions are back in town, as was the Super Bowl. Great! They've lost the Belle Isle Aquarium, the oldest in North America. They almost closed down the Zoo, it was saved by handing over control to a Zoological Society. Police have been laid off by scores. Detroit is tens of millions of dollars in the red. The city is the only major city in the country to fall below 1,000,000 people once reaching that level. Most of the city looks like Berlin after WWII. Drugs, prostitution, gangs, violence... walk a few blocks outside of the downtown area and you'll find it all in spades.

What exactly has the Detroit voter gained by selling themselves out to the Democratic Party, and continuing to do so year after year after year like clockwork? At least the slaves could say they were taken by force, that puts them a step above the sheeple in my book!

Mike
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Know why?

Because he was the only one with a job, that's why. The unemployment rate was 25%. Five million people in the U.S. voted for Socialists in a Presidential election. That's how the evil liberals got control in the first place, 'cause there were group houses with fourteen residents and one job.

So now, with the unemployment rate nationally at 4.9% or something I am hearing that the liberals are ruining Michigan by raising the minimum wage by an amount equal to half a cup of Starbucks coffee?

Unbelievable.


I wish I could rec that another 30 times.
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Liberalism killing Michigan

First Terry Schiavo, now Michigan, who's next?

-----

Better watch your step Ray, it might be you.
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So now, with the unemployment rate nationally at 4.9% or something I am hearing that the liberals are ruining Michigan by raising the minimum wage by an amount equal to half a cup of Starbucks coffee?

Unbelievable.

===============

everything old is new again, RT. It's hip to be square.

dov
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From Article 1990

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3165/is_n7_v26/ai_10395217

The challenge is to make the retirement benefit attractive enough to get workers -- whose average age is 43 at the Big Three -- to take early retirement, making room for new hires or retaining jobs.



One issue close to Mr. Yokich's heart is stronger contract language prohibiting plant closings. The current agreement permits the automakers to "idle" under-used plants. He maintains that those plants are closed. For example, he says, when GM mothballed the Pontiac Fiero plant in Pontiac, Mich., in the late '80s it really was closed. He took it to arbitration, but the arbitrator ruled against him.



Pension hikes also are a major issue in 1990 bargaining. While some in the UAW want indexing in pensions based on cost of living, most agree it is too expensive. Anthony P. St. John, Chrysler vice president for human resources, says putting COLA in pensions would cost the company $6-$7 billion immediately because the government would require up-front funding.



Or 2005


Last year the automaker, known for its innovative approach to health care, spent $5.2 billion to cover 1.1 million retirees, employees and their families. Prescription drugs cost GM $1.9 billion, and the company projects overall medical spending will increase by $400 million this year. That could be offset by a provision in the Medicare drug benefit to pick up a portion of firms' retiree drug costs.

But the figure that prompted Wagoner to raise his voice is $1,500. That is the amount of money added to the price of every single vehicle to cover health care, a cost that his foreign competitors do not bear.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15828-2005Feb10.html
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...an amount equal to half a cup of Starbucks coffee?

Unbelievable.

-----

Yeah, what's unbelievable is that anyone would pay that much for a cup of coffee!

http://www.illwillpress.com/sml.html






Rich
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Kwame Kilpatrick is working on outdoing Coleman Young on corruption and incompetence. I could. not. frikken. believe. they reelected that douchebag.


'They' re-elected Bush.


Jimbo
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Both ID and AZ are open carry states...

And, no one living here even notice gun racks in the back window of pickups.

Smog check where you look though. So many urbanizations by immigrants have yielded smog.

Salt Lake City, Vegas, Reno, Phoenix, Houston, Boise, Dallas...
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I mean, you have bad guys with weapons asking to be killed in both instances... just less travel via the Border Patrol.


I can't think of a better job for you than going someplace to kill people.
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Carrying the arguments of the anti minimum wage crowd to their logical extreme, employment would be maximized if wages were zero.

Get the whip.
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Slaves? If you don't like that term (it's not very P.C. I admit), how about sheeple?


Better. Still a more than a little condescending, but at least not as massively dumb as Jedi's term.

What great "progress" has the Detroit voter achieved since 1968? What wonderful outcomes have their repeated support of the corrupt mayors (excluding Archer) achieved? The Lions are back in town, as was the Super Bowl. Great! They've lost the Belle Isle Aquarium, the oldest in North America. They almost closed down the Zoo, it was saved by handing over control to a Zoological Society. Police have been laid off by scores. Detroit is tens of millions of dollars in the red. The city is the only major city in the country to fall below 1,000,000 people once reaching that level. Most of the city looks like Berlin after WWII. Drugs, prostitution, gangs, violence... walk a few blocks outside of the downtown area and you'll find it all in spades.

Forigve the length, but sometimes a big mistake warrants a big answer:

Like in many large cities, Detroit politics is a mixture of political machinery, corruption, and a few who genuinely try to do right by their constituencies. Detroit has historically had a bad time with corruption. Nonetheless, you find the same thing in many other major cities.

That urban voters are largely a Democratic constituency is another unrelated issue. It's a well known dynamic that urban voters are more likely to favor a party that is percieved to be more concerned with social progressiveness, while in less urban areas voters are more likely to favor a party that represents to them traditional values. This isn't just true of Detroit, and it isn't just true of America.

Detroit is worse than many because of unique problems. First, capitalism has been very tough on Detroit. When the economy is good, Detroit does better. It's no coinicidence that Detroit's high point was during the roaring 20s, when it was Americas boom town and, believe it or not, people from Europe actually came here to bask in the cosmopolitan culture. Supporting this analysis is that Detroit's "comeback" took place during the booming economy of the 90s. Further consider that Detroit's truly lowest point came during the recessionary early 80's at a time of high unemployment. When America does good, Detroit does excellent. When America sneezes, Detroit catches a cold.

Complicating this volitile economy is the pervasive racism. Detroit experienced a massive influx of southerners of both races (due to its terrific job opportunities in good times). Unfortunately, they brought the more inflammatory brand of southern racism with them. Racist housing policies fueled the problems.

If anyone has any doubts of how deep was the racism in Detroit, take a drive around Eight Mile and Wyoming. You will see a brick wall of which about three blocks remain. It was built as a barrier so that white developers could secure funding - they could only get funding if they built an actual physical wall to separate the Blacks. Federal policies encouraged this, and black Detroiters were confined to the worst areas the city had to offer.

This is why Detroit practically burned down. It wasn't the Democrats, or the Lefties, and all of this other simple stuff you are blaming. It was the cumulative effect of institutionalized racism coupled with an abrupt collapse of Detroit's manufacturing base in the post war period.

This was all going on in the 30's and 40's. Long before Coleman Young, or the riots, or the auto-industry/energy crisis problems of the 70's. The popular myth, and it seems like the one you are adhering to, is that Everything was pretty good until the riots, recession and then a corrupt mayor killed the city. The reality for poor Detroiters, and especially Black ones, is much different. The wheels of this story were in motion long before that.

When jobs got scarce after WWII many sought work in the suburbs. Blacks could not do this easily because of the aforementioned ghettoization of their communities as well as the violent racism they were met with in the suburbs. The inappropriately named "White flight" started LONG before the riots.

Predictably, things dramatically boiled over. The riots were the result of all of these conditions. Even more people, White and Black, abandoned the city for the suburbs. The ones left behind were the ones who couldn't afford to leave. Business left, jobs left.

Subsequently, a city that was built for two million people was left to be maintained by a tax base of fewer than one million of the poorest citizens of the entire metro area. It's easy to see why it suffered, and it's easy to see why it has NOTHING to do with the Democratic party.

So the mistake you are making has essentially two prongs. First, you are mistaking a correlation for a causal relationship. Just because Detroiters are overwhelmingly Democrat doesn't in any way indicate a failure of liberal policies. That's a simple logical fallacy.

Secondly, you are grossly simplifying the causes of Detroit's problems and attributing them to Democrats, when in reality it's been a subtle interplay of unbridled capitalism and social intolerance - both things that modern liberalism views as problems that should be the focus of public policy.

Which is EXACTLY why Detroiters vote that way.

And that is why both your characterization of Detroiters as "sheeple" and Jedi's stupid analogy with slavery are utterly condescending, simplistic, and can be safely dismissed for what they are.
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Carrying the arguments of the anti minimum wage crowd to their logical extreme, employment would be maximized if wages were zero.

That's an extreme but not a logical argument nor one that has much to do with opposition to the minimum wage. The argument of the anti minimum crowd... at least the part of the crowd I would be a part of would be that a minimum wage (not wages) of zero would be just fine. The argument is that employers will pay what the labor is worth to them. If you have a skill that is of some value you will paid more, it's that simple. You get paid for what you provide... not what you need... not what you need if you have two kids and a wife but for the value of what you provide to those that pay you. All wages (or for that matter any wages) wouldn't fall to zero under the logical extreme of anything the people that want to get rid of minimum wage envision. On the other hand, the logical extreme of the people that support the minimum wage and increasing it, would be that everyone made the same amount of no matter their skill level which would basically be a wage of zero. Because it wouldn't be a wage it would be a gift.
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That's an extreme but not a logical argument nor one that has much to do with opposition to the minimum wage. The argument of the anti minimum crowd... at least the part of the crowd I would be a part of would be that a minimum wage (not wages) of zero would be just fine. The argument is that employers will pay what the labor is worth to them.

It's a logical extrapolation of the more simplistic argument that is made (very often) which says that lower wages equals a higher number of jobs. You might not be making it here, but it is made by many. Generally they're the same folks who argue that lower taxes equal higher govt' revenue. Which isn't much of a surprise since those are both essentially the same mistake.
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If anyone has any doubts of how deep was the racism in Detroit, take a drive around Eight Mile and Wyoming. You will see a brick wall of which about three blocks remain. It was built as a barrier so that white developers could secure funding - they could only get funding if they built an actual physical wall to separate the Blacks. Federal policies encouraged this, and black Detroiters were confined to the worst areas the city had to offer.
-------------------------------------------------------------

That is so sad. Remembering how wonderful, and triumphant it was when Reagan had the Berlin wall knocked down. How shameful to know that we had a wall dividing our own people in our own country.
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I can't think of a better job for you than going someplace to kill people.
-----

I hear there are excellent such opportunities working security in Iraq. The pay is quite a bit more than minimum wage too.

What's that? Uhm, well yeah, <ahem> they do shoot back.

Hey! Come back here...
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I'm likely going to follow my friends and college classmates, who by and large are no longer living or working in the economic black hole that is Michigan. It would take a miracle to keep me in the state I was born in, the land that I love (there's just quite a few people here I could do without!) My best friend, a fellow Michigander, just got back from a fact-finding trip to Arizona, and he had nothing but good things to say. We might just be moving out there together.

Thanks Libs. I'm sure my son's grandparents will (potentially) enjoy having to travel across the country to visit their first grandson.

Mike


Mike, I haven't done an analysis of Michigan's economy so I can't comment on specifics yet your post raised a red flag enough to make me comment broadly. You, and others in Michigan, set me straight if I am wrong.

When people leave other things leave: one is investment. I would stake that fewer businesses are starting up in the state and that existing businesses are not expanding their facilities or staffs. One metric is in the number of pages of want-ads in the newspapers/ My bet is that they are now fewer.

I would also bet that many existing businesses are moving (or have moved) from the state. I would bet the ratio of businesses leaving to those starting up is high. I would also bet that personal and business bankruptcies have increased and that auction sales of company's equipment are up.

The question is why is this (if it is as I believe it is) happening? Simply put, Michigan is taxing itself into penury. Duck mentioned some taxes and whenever similar taxes have been imposed elsewhere the economy has decreased. This leaves the area with a reduced government tack and the reaction is to recover lost income with a larger tax load. In turn to this the economy contracts further and taxes are often, again, raised.

If I am right in this description then, if I were advising the state, I would have personal taxes cut by 20 percent and most business taxes eliminated entirely. I would make Michigan as an attractive financial place as Arizona for you, Mike.

Will the taxes be cut? I doubt it because it takes political will to do so and, for a short while, certain state-sponsored programs will have to be cut back. This, som politicians believe, is political suicide not realizing the state moving away from expansion is also political suicide.

As I said, I haven't done specific research on Michigan yet it's my belief they've chosen the road of soak the rich and productive and have completely forgotten that wealth destroys poverty.

One last bet: that high-end home sales prices have dropped and that high-end automobile dealerships are furloughing sales people.

Mike, am I close?

MichaelR



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One foreign manufacturer who was interested in starting a plant near Grand Rapids changed their minds when the government entities they came to meet with brought union representatives with them to the table, scuttling the deal in it's infancy.

Michigan's citizens are I think, ill served by their 'public servants'.
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ramsfanray says

First Terry Schiavo, now Michigan, who's next?

HAR!!! Have a rec, Ray.

crassfool
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Yet I'm thinking about leaving, possibly for Arizona. I'm even poking around job opportunties in Arizona. Why? Because the economy here is horrible, and there are no signs of it getting better anytime soon... because we keep electing liberals and the Republicans can't help but kowtow to them. My best friend, a fellow Michigander, just got back from a fact-finding trip to Arizona, and he had nothing but good things to say. We might just be moving out there together.

You do realize that Arizona is run by a Democrat...
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Hey! Come back here...

LOL

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Mike,

I am from the UP area, 5 hours NW of St. Ignace..

manage to get back up there a couple of times a year to visit, am in the process of getting ready to retire back up there next year.

But I hear you regarding the decline of the state, its screwed up Congressional reps, the impace the decline of the auto industry has had on the state, and yes, Granholms lousy policies...

have relatives down in your neck of the woods, who tell me how bad things are getting down in that area thanks to the demise of the auto industry.

know many folks in the UP that because of the location and their education, could only get jobs that pay minimum wages. (Don't get me wrong, many are hard diligent workers, just a lack of education to go with that willingness has held many back) Expect if they actually push thru these min wage hikes, there WILL be more on the unemployment roles cause in the UP, many businesses are barely getting by to begin with... This is the last thing they need and the ones that had jobs are now going to take a hit...

as I said, we are fully intending to move back to the UP next year and retire... Why? Because we can live well up there due to the cheap cost of living...

but the closer we get, the more like you I am. Seriously considering another state altogether. Someplace where the "mentality" of the government is different, someplace where the mentality of the majority of the masses is represented by the attitude of "personal responsibility".. someplace where their is a desire to not only grow, but where its done but not at the expense of the ones making it happen.

someplace like Alaska... Montana, Colorado.... in reality, out in the west someplace, but not on coast... Who knows... But passed on your message to my wife... Cause once we build our new house, it will be too late.... and that is supposed to happen later this summer...

good luck because I hear you.... an equally frustrated Michigander who is totally disgusted with his Congressional representation at all levels (Stupak, Stabenow, Levin and especially conyers)
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Yea Mike, it's all the liberals FAULT again.
I suggest you move to India or China where the jobs are going, going, gone.
Or join the military and fight for the bushies.

dw


you live in Michigan?? You have something to refute Mike's insights?
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It won't matter where you move. You're son's future has already been sacrificed, but not on the 'altar of Liberalism'. He has been straddled with the debt this administration has created & will leave for him. (Debt created out of a surplus, mind you.)


have YOU seen the recent "DEM political agenda"? Its all about handouts, free this, free that.... Read about it yesterday....

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Flint has been broken for a long time, and liberals had nothing to do with it. Suits at GM who decided to build cheap crappy cars but price them like their emerging foreign competitors superior products and "buy American" flag wavers who bought these ureliable, gas guzzling pieces of crap instead of demanding something better had a lot to do with it.

guess your dad was a true blue union worker. Passed on the union party line to you...

maybe you need to find a union member that is willing to tell the other side of the story.. I have two relatives that are now retired from GM that will tell you its 180 degrees opposite of your viewpoint.. And again, they were union members...


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Hey - as a conservative, I find myself agreeing with you as well. Detroit's problems are much more about incompentent management than they are about the unions. There's nothing but crap that rolls off the assembly lines at GM and Ford and that's not the fault of American auto worker.

ever ponder what kind of "materials" could be bought if the auto manufacturers could redirect some of their employee expenses into buying quality parts instead of cheap plastic parts for instance?

ever ponder what it would be like if the car manufacturers could FIRE someone that is doing substandard work on the assembly line because they just don't have to CARE??

(again, based on information from relatives who worked many years at GM)...



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ever ponder what it would be like if the car manufacturers could FIRE someone that is doing substandard work on the assembly line because they just don't have to CARE??
***************************************
The reason they can't fire someone is because upper management can't get middle management to follow company procedure.
(actually do the paper work)
It's not mismanagement in corporate America. One has to manage something before they can mismanage it :^)
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It's a logical extrapolation of the more simplistic argument that is made (very often) which says that lower wages equals a higher number of jobs. You might not be making it here, but it is made by many.

My theory has always been that a raise in the minimum wage has no effect on the job market by the very nature of the minimum wage job. The minimum wage job is the type of job that is necessary to do but not a particulary nice one. Since you are already only paying the minimum to do the job logically you are also only hiring the minimum number of employees required to do said jobs. Since you are already at the minimum requirements to get the job done you can't logically cut the employees rrequired just because the minimum wage went up unless the job isn't necessary in the first place.

herb
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"Mike "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Their are proposing to build a Kia manufaturing facility in Georgia.

BMW is in South Carolina.

Mercedes in Alabama.

Honda is in Ohio.

Howie52
Industries tend to locate and expand where economics dictate - and
where tax regulations are most favorable.

Local government recognizes this where they have their priorities
straight. An extremely bright man once said, "It's the economy!"

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We actually have many agreements here Ziege, just radically different interpretations.

Obviously everything wasn't great until the riots, something had to cause them after all... but there are better ways to solve problems than burning down your own city and scaring away the majority of the tax base.

You are right on about the influx of southerners into Detroit. They brought with them certain negative cultural aspects, the so called "ghetto" culture that started in (of all places) northern England, was brought to the south by immigrants, was adopted by many (including freed slaves) and travelled with them around the country.

It's still alive and well today in Detroit. It rears it's head when a kid is beat up for "acting white" by studying hard. It lives in violent attacks on the smallest pretense, such as looking at someone the wrong way, wearing the wrong colors, living on the wrong side of town. It lives in a lacksadaisical attitute towards working for a living, saving for the future, taking care of one's children.

In a way, I do see Democrats promoting this dangerous culture, in that they're pandering to it for votes. They don't say so, but their message isn't to work hard and sacrifice for the future. They call it compassion, perhaps they truly believe it is... but I don't see it that way at all. It's nothing more than enabling a destructive culture. They also argue that this culture should be celebrated as "authentic." It isn't, it shouldn't be celebrated, it should really be eradicated (the culture, not the people who are the victims of it.)

If you want to blame Capitalism, I suppose that's your perogotive. The way I see it, Capitalism gives you a chance to succeed or fail on your own merit. If you are culturally predestined to fail, you sure as heck won't like Capitalism. I wouldn't blame the system for that, though. I'd put the blame where it belongs, on the choices of the failures themselves. If I fail I know whom to blame. I WANT a system that forces me to succeed on my own. There's no incentive to succeed better than the fear of utter failure, IMHO. If you get rid of the fear of failure... why try to succeed?

It doesn't work if I'm punished for my success and others are rewarded for their failure by a "compassionate" political system. It doesn't make sense to support such a system. That's the Detroit system, and more and more so the Michigan system. No good will come of it.

Mike

P.S. Thomas Sowell's Black Rednecks and White Liberals provides an excellent explanation of the cultural problems outlined above, and definitely has shaped my views on the matter.
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The minimum wage job is the type of job that is necessary to do but not a particulary nice one.

Basically it's one that requires very little or no skill, a stepping stone to better employment. I agree.

Since you are already only paying the minimum to do the job logically you are also only hiring the minimum number of employees required to do said jobs.

Maybe, or perhaps you need to hire some people to train to do other jobs, but don't want to pay them alot while you're training them because they just aren't worth it until they are fully trained. This has been the case with every job I've ever had (only one was minimum wage, my first when I was 14 years old.) Since regularly showing up to work increases your value, it doesn't take much to earn better pay... which is exactly what happens in the vast majority of cases.

Since you are already at the minimum requirements to get the job done you can't logically cut the employees rrequired just because the minimum wage went up unless the job isn't necessary in the first place.

In some instances yes, but not in those like I described above. You may have to hire a few people to see which one's are trainable, which one's will work out, who you can keep and train and who are thus more valuable to you. Eventually you can cut the slackers and split their menial tasks amongst everyone else. If the minimum wage goes up, you just don't hire as many people and/or you raise prices to cover the increase. Either way the "poor" aren't any better off in the long term. But the politicians can say, "See, we REALLY care about helping the poor!" and the unaffected majority of the population can say, "See, we really are compassionate!"

It just doesn't solve anything. It's a feel-good measure, that's all. It's a waste of time and resources that could be better spent elsewhere. That's why it is so infuriating.

Mike
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If the minimum wage goes up, you just don't hire as many people and/or you raise prices to cover the increase. Either way the "poor" aren't any better off in the long term. But the politicians can say, "See, we REALLY care about helping the poor!" and the unaffected majority of the population can say, "See, we really are compassionate!"

It just doesn't solve anything. It's a feel-good measure, that's all. It's a waste of time and resources that could be better spent elsewhere. That's why it is so infuriating.



You aren't taking into consideration that those workers spend the extra money consuming goods and services, which benefits the employer. Additionally, other wages are pushed up which compounds the effect. Labor consumes itself; to an extent, it creates its own demand.

So really, the "feel good" argument is yours. The whole libertarian, business can solve our problems, trust the invisible hand thing. That feels good to certain people. Opponents of minimum wages are the same people who tell you that public policy should favor business because "a rising tide lifts all boats". And they believe it too...just so long as no one suggests that lifting the boat of the minimum wage worker might also make the tide rise.

Of course this kind of anti-minimum wage argument makes some people feel better than others, which is clearly seen when you look at who believes it.

That's why it is so infuriating.

No, its infuriating because it runs contrary to the pro-business ideology you are employing in place of actual analysis.

I see that a lot.
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You are nuts to believe the problem with Michigan is liberalism
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So really, the "feel good" argument is yours. The whole libertarian, business can solve our problems, trust the invisible hand thing. That feels good to certain people. Opponents of minimum wages are the same people who tell you that public policy should favor business because "a rising tide lifts all boats". And they believe it too...just so long as no one suggests that lifting the boat of the minimum wage worker might also make the tide rise.

But it's not the same thing, because the minimum wage is an artificial price floor. It's only based on government whim, not market conditions, not resource availability, not economic realities. It's simply the government sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong and wreacking havoc.

Wages rise naturally when there is a reason for them to do so. Labor is affected by the law of supply and demand. Rising it above its status for political gain doesn't mean anything economically... it is still subject to the laws of economics. Arbitrarilly setting wages based on political whim creates an imbalance in the market... it adds costs to one side with no increase in revenues or profit motive on the other. The market compensates for this in ways that primarilly harm the poorest and least skilled workers... it has to in order for the system to keep from collapsing.

If wages aren't going up, there is market related reason for it. The labor market is weak in Michigan for a reason. The government arbitrarilly setting the minimum wage at a higher level does not change the underlying causes of the weak labor market. It's like giving your car a paint job when it really needs an oil change. It still runs like crap, but it looks pretty.

What, pray tell, is the economic argument for raising the minimum wage? What benefits does it give the average worker? More money? Great, but prices go up too, so it's at best a wash. More jobs? How? What mechanism can possibly explain why employers would hire more people if it costs them more money to do so? Why would they hire more unskilled people at a higher wage if they weren't worth a lower wage before the wage was raised? Because it's the right thing to do? Good intentions don't put money in the bank, in fact good intentions gone wrong have probably cost this nation far more than wars ever have.

Is the free market perfect? Absolutely not... nothing is perfect. It's just far better than the alternatives.

Mike
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If wages aren't going up, there is market related reason for it. The labor market is weak in Michigan for a reason. The government arbitrarilly setting the minimum wage at a higher level does not change the underlying causes of the weak labor market. It's like giving your car a paint job when it really needs an oil change. It still runs like crap, but it looks pretty.

What, pray tell, is the economic argument for raising the minimum wage?


Mike,

some time ago, I was reading an analysis, sort of post mortem on some of the legislation passed and its REAL impact on folks.

the touted purpose of the legislation often turned out to be less beneficial than the harm the legislation created. Problem was, the only aspect talked about was the "benefit". Same goes for the minimum wage arguement.

its always, its good for folks... the counter or impact arguements get pooh poohed as inconsequential with respect to the benefits.

but like you mentioned, those benefits are not. I remember in CA when they pushed thru a bill saying all businesses over 25 employees have to provide some level of health care. All the proponents were backslapping each other as they praised their efforts.

but rarely did you hear the stories of those businesses that had to lay someone(s) off in order to get under 25 cause they couldn't afford to pay the increased costs. And for those that had no choice, now their products/customers had to eat the increased employer costs... and we all know what happens when prices go up... If you don't take a look at Disney world, Legoland attendance and look at the death spiral these folks are caught in. (I keep saying, the best thing they could do to help themselves out financially for the long term is to LOWER rates to make it possible for MORE folks to come, but they keep going the other way)...

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If you don't take a look at Disney world, Legoland attendance and look at the death spiral these folks are caught in. (I keep saying, the best thing they could do to help themselves out financially for the long term is to LOWER rates to make it possible for MORE folks to come, but they keep going the other way)...

No, see, if you lower the prices the people can come, including those nasty poor people. See, it's better to have higher prices to keep the riff-raff out!

But that has nothing to do with the minimum wage... or does it? Higher prices act like a moat, they protect those who can afford them from having to compete with those who can't. In terms of wages, if you have a job, are overpaid and want to keep it the best way to do so is to make it too expensive for the company to hire people to take your place. You can call for a higher "minimum wage", then demand that your wage go up because you're suddenly making less than before comparatively, and thus make it that much harder to bring in competition. Hmmm, I wonder why unions like the minimum wage so much?

You have to hand it to the Unions, they do fight for their members best interests. It just so happens that it is to the detriment of the rest of society. Color me shocked.

Mike
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But it's not the same thing, because the minimum wage is an artificial price floor. It's only based on government whim, not market conditions, not resource availability, not economic realities. It's simply the government sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong and wreacking havoc.

A. "Artificial" is a meaningless distinction in this context.

B. Please show me evidence of the "havoc" that has come from minimum wage hikes or implementations.

What, pray tell, is the economic argument for raising the minimum wage? What benefits does it give the average worker? More money? Great, but prices go up too, so it's at best a wash.

Leave aside the fact that you just dubbed multi-sector economic growth to be by definition "a wash at best". Which prices go up? The price of, say, housing? Electricity? Oil? Taco bell? The distinct goods and services which are marginally affected matter, wouldn't you say? And the relative price increases are not going to be the same among all goods and services. That's important.

This is all beside the basic moral argument of course. A real moral argument, that is. Not the kind of "what's good for business is good for everyone" faux-moral argument that is the stock and trade of the right.
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This is all beside the basic moral argument of course. A real moral argument, that is.

It's always easy to be "moral" by giving away other people's money, isn't it?

Mike, who wants no part of that kind of "morality" thank you very much.
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It's always easy to be "moral" by giving away other people's money, isn't it?

Well that argument would make sense for someone opposed to all forms of taxing and spending by government. Since I'm sure you are not that person, from you it's just a meaningless talking point. Anything the government does is with what you are referring to as "other people's money". That includes the military, borders, law enforcement, schools, and so forth. Unless you're opposed to all those things, you are very much in favor of being "moral by giving away other people's money", you just don't want to admit it. I'm guessing that's cuz you prefer making the lazy arguments that you've been pre-fed.

Seems a little sheepleish if you ask me.

Mike, who wants no part of that kind of "morality" thank you very much.

Clearly.
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It's always easy to be "moral" by giving away other people's money, isn't it?

You mean like how we morally let Haliburton overcharge us and then when we found out about it, we morally let them keep the money.
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You mean like how we morally let Haliburton overcharge us and then when we found out about it, we morally let them keep the money.

Which of course occurred because we decided to spend a few hundred billion dollars of "other people's money" morally toppling a dictator.

You know what the really absurd part of hearing a Republican make the "other people's money" argument today is? That they are SO willing to spend other people's lives for their own pet moral causes.
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Well that argument would make sense for someone opposed to all forms of taxing and spending by government.

I'm not opposed to all forms of taxing and spending by the government. I'm not very impressed with income taxes, I think there are far better ways (and fairer ways) to collect taxes. I also don't mind the government paying for those things spelled out in the Constitution, the only things they're supposed to be funding. If they did nothing more than that I'd be happy as a clam!

However, wealth redistribution isn't in the Constitution, nor should it be as it isn't healthy for a productive society. It sends the wrong signals and encourages the wrong types of behavior. I don't see that as being beneficial in any way, shape or form. But I'm not a politician buying people's votes with money from the federal coffers.

Mike
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You mean like how we morally let Haliburton overcharge us and then when we found out about it, we morally let them keep the money.

Sure. It isn't right when Haliburton does it, nor is it right when the citizens do it via their representatives.

Mike

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However, wealth redistribution isn't in the Constitution, nor should it be as it isn't healthy for a productive society. It sends the wrong signals and encourages the wrong types of behavior. I don't see that as being beneficial in any way, shape or form.

All wealth is redistributive.

But I'm not a politician buying people's votes with money from the federal coffers.

No, you have your own agenda.
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Hmmm, let's see what the brilliance of raising the minimum wage in Michigan has wrought thus far:

http://tinyurl.com/jdzcu

Detroit News, 4/4/2006

With their hike in the state minimum wage, Lansing politicians have done it again. Changing the state minimum wage so it's higher than the federal minimum wage will not only destroy jobs for young, unskilled workers, it will also expose employers to new headaches in dealing with complex overtime rules.

That's because Michigan's new, higher minimum wage law, which delivers the first wage hike in October, has different rules for paying overtime to workers than the current federal rules. When the federal minimum wage was equal to Michigan's, the rules for overtime in the federal Fair Labor Standards Act applied. Now, as an employer alert from the Dykema law firm in Detroit points out, employers may well have to comply with different Michigan overtime rules.


What does this mean? Basically that nobody will be exempt from overtime in Michigan, thereby giving employers less incentive to give their current employees more hours, less incentive to keep current employees and less incentive to hire any more employees. Also, considering that Michigan now has the third highest minimum wage in the country, it gives employers considering moving to Michigan or growing their operations in Michigan less incentive to do so. Why put up shop in Monroe, Michigan when you can go a few miles south and set up a business for far less money in Toledo, Ohio?

This is bad news, and it keeps getting worse. This will NOT help Michigan's economy, mark my words.

Mike
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