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It was the most respectful, benign form of bullying ever. But bullying nonetheless. And by the way, human rights must be won, not asked for,” said Van Zandt in a series of tweets on Saturday, Nov. 19. “When artists perform the venue becomes your home. The audience are your guests. It’s taking unfair advantage of someone who thought they were a protected guest in your home”.
“A guy comes to a Broadway show for a relaxing night out. Instead he gets a lecture from the stage! Not a level playing field. It’s bullying. You don’t single out an audience member and embarrass him from the stage. A terrible precedent to set.”
...“The statement is beautiful. And completely inappropriate at that time. And I would defend the cast’s right to be inappropriate forever,” Van Zandt said. “That statement may prove to be correct for these men in their new positions, we’ll see. But that doesn’t mean we have to lose our civility.”
...“Please don’t misunderstand,” Van Zandt said. “Everyone who is sane disagrees with his policies. This was not the time or place to do it is all I’m saying.”
http://www.app.com/story/entertainment/music/2016/11/19/stev...
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Van Zandt's E Street band mate Nils Lofgren took the opposite opinion...Any chance you get to speak truth to power right now, you have to take it."
And so it goes - 2 opinions and neither side is going to convince the other that they are right. ; )
Icemann <--agrees with Nils Lofgren
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Any chance you get to speak truth to power right now, you have to take it.
In an empire, perhaps.
In a republic, no.
neither side is going to convince the other that they are right.
I find that attitude helps inform me of people's underlying principles.
It's like understanding that you can tell a lot about a person by the way he or she treats the wait staff.
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The statement that the guest should not be harassed is absolutely correct. But I don't think what the cast said was out of line. The booing was done by the audience. The cast asked the audience not to boo.
Not every crowd will be a mindless Trump mob.
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Not every crowd will be a mindless Trump mob.
_____________________________________________________
No, some will be mindless lefty mobs....and violence cannot be ruled out.
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How about Craig and Weisz as a team. Like the British Avengers series. I think it could work well.
https://m.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.buzzfeed.co...
>It's like understanding that you can tell a lot about a person by the way he or she treats the wait staff.
The Vice-president-elect of the United States is analogous to the wait staff?
Seems to me that Pence handled this just fine, and Trump looked like an ass as usual.
Peter
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My kingdom for a little editing on TMF. Please ignore extraneous comment on next James Bond.
Peter
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Any chance you get to speak truth to power right now, you have to take it.
In an empire, perhaps.
In a republic, no.
Glad you are the arbitrator of what is right and what is wrong. Some may argue the US is an 'empire'. I guess the cast could have waited until the next time they met with Mr. Pence in a cafe for a chat.
neither side is going to convince the other that they are right.
I find that attitude helps inform me of people's underlying principles.
It's like understanding that you can tell a lot about a person by the way he or she treats the wait staff.
So, and I could be reading what you wrote here incorrectly, if someone agrees with you OR they change their stance based on what you say/write, they are 'good' people with the 'right' attitude. But if they still disagree with you based on different reasonings, they have a 'poor' attitude? Isn't this the argument that so many had against the anti-Trumpers when others (quite belligerently) stated that people who voted for Mr. Trump were racist, etc and did not know better? Think my way or you are wrong.
Just curious.
Icemann
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"The statement is beautiful. And completely inappropriate at that time. And I would defend the cast’s right to be inappropriate forever” “That statement may prove to be correct for these men in their new positions, we’ll see. But that doesn’t mean we have to lose our civility.”
Van Zandt
This whole event would be a ship passing in the night if not for Trump tweeting and re-tweeting day after day. “Oh the calamity” Pence has already said more than once, “no one was offended.”
Pence was there. I wasn’t there, you weren’t there nor was Van Zandt or for that matter Lofgren, but most especially Trump. There was a context in which this series of events took place. Pence was clear, that there was no harassment, no offense. He praised the company. The ‘controversy’ (in Trump’s opinion, harassment) took place as Pence was leaving with his large group. Variety was the first to report the Vice President’s attendance, even before the Trump tweeting. Variety pointed out that it’s customary for Vice Presidents in attendance to come back stage to meet the cast.
It was an impromptu most likely motivated by the booing. The cast and crew may have been disappointed to see the production end on a sour note. The first thing Dixon said was related to booing. He told the crowd to stop it. He emphasized that it was an event expressing love and community and togetherness. That is the meaning of theater, along with expressing humanity.
For Van Zandt to add more fuel to the Trump fake fire is disappointing.
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Pence was clear, that there was no harassment, no offense.
==========================================================
Pence was being politic. He has good manners, the crew, feeling secure in their safe space with their participation trophies, do not have good manners. They turned art and entertainment into a political arena.
Be very clear. What the cast did was rude and inappropriate.
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"I nudged my kids and reminded them, that’s what freedom sounds like…I wasn’t offended by what was said,” said Pence in an interview on Fox News Sunday.
____________________
I would expect very few to to offended by what was said.
Now where and when were totally inappropriate and I am sure, like all decent people Pence would be aghast if his children were so petulantly rude to do what was done.
But what was said? Sure it was pretty stupid, but otherwise not all that offensive at all
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Glad you are the arbitrator of what is right and what is wrong.
Happy to help.
Some may argue the US is an 'empire'.
Public education has many sins for which to answer.
I guess the cast could have waited until the next time they met with Mr. Pence in a cafe for a chat.
Or waited for the meet-and-greet after the performance.
So, and I could be reading what you wrote here incorrectly...
Oh, you absolutely are reading it incorrectly and you know it, bless your heart.
But let's parse it out anyway.
One's attitude (of tolerance or the lack thereof) is an indicator of one's underlying principles. Someone who applauds incivility to others, any others, is not a nice person much as one who is rude to wait staff is not a nice person.
They may attempt to cloak that incivility, to say that somehow it's different this time, but really it is an attempt to be controlling, to deny others their due respect.
That is generally a good thing to be aware of.
But if they still disagree with you based on different reasonings...
They should probably discuss those reasonings rather than demagoguing.
Just curious.
Actually, you're being passive aggressive. Somewhere along the line you were taught that was acceptable behavior. Again, public education has many sins for which to answer.
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One's attitude (of tolerance or the lack thereof) is an indicator of one's underlying principles. Someone who applauds incivility to others, any others, is not a nice person much as one who is rude to wait staff is not a nice person.
They may attempt to cloak that incivility, to say that somehow it's different this time, but really it is an attempt to be controlling, to deny others their due respect.
But that is my point - I did not feel it was 'not civil' in this case. Leaders of any country, business, etc have different responsibilities and different rights - fortunately or unfortunately, that means their 'private' life in public often is not so 'private'.
You have defined it as 'incivility' and I disagree with that definition of the event.
As to the 'passive aggressiveness' - it does not change my points or questions.
Now, though, I am curious if you were actually being particularly condescending in your original post (and much more in your most recent response) as part of your regular routine or if it is just the weekend effect?
Wherever you were educated - public or private, they have sins for which they should answer including whether or not you ever learned any etiquette or manners.
Icemann
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I did not feel it was 'not civil' in this case
And that tells me a lot about your character.
As does the fact that your responses are attacks upon me rather than on the topic at hand.
Not unexpected.
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Don't you think it is asking a lot for lefties to exhibit good manners?
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Pence is pure class.
The Hamilton rogues? completely the opposite.
VQ
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Glad you are the arbitrator of what is right and what is wrong. Some may argue the US is an 'empire'.
If you are one of them, then I guess you are grateful to trump's independent outsider candidacy-he is not a member of the empire.
I guess the cast could have waited until the next time they met with Mr. Pence in a cafe for a chat.
Well, that or they could express their views by voting, like most of us did.
And as an aside, as much as I think 0bama was never qualified to be president, his winning was an accident, and his unpopular policies destructive to the country, I can't imagine calling him or Biden out as these classless folks did.
Just would not be right.
VQ
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Don't you think it is asking a lot for lefties to exhibit good manners?
Bless your heart. I'm sure your example will be a beacon.
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Van Zandt's E Street band mate Nils Lofgren took the opposite opinion..
Nils is a much better musician that Stevie too. Not an opinion.
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Not every crowd will be a mindless Trump mob.
But Pence will always be a religious elitist.
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The opiate of the masses?
...carry on
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Don't you think it is asking a lot for lefties to exhibit good manners?
Do you think righties know what good manners look like?
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Pence is pure class.
Pence lied his way through the campaign. That's not class. I give him credit for how he handled himself well at that show; He listened politely, from all accounts, to what was a polite appeal to use his coming influence in a compassionate way, and not to 'go low', as his running mate has with regards to immigrants.
No one is surprised that Trump snarled back at the least little prod. He is such a little weasel.
They need to work on him. The provocation will be much more than a polite appeal when they actually have the job, and it will hold much more danger if reacted to without reason or thought. Like Trump twittered.
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Pence is pure class.
Pence lied his way through the campaign. That's not class.
The Left seems to always equate disagreements on policy with Republicans as saying they are "lying".
Yet actual lies by 0bama and Hillary are excused since they are to advance the "greater good".
So 0bama can lie saying "if you like your healthcare you can keep it" dozens of times, Hillary can say "I did not send or receive confidential information" dozens of times or tell gold star families Benghazi was "about a video" , and that is all fine to the Lefty.
But then such Smugs, with little regard for actual truth, want to call Republicans "liars" due to policy differences, pretending to be offended.
Truth matters to the electorate. And one reason Trump is the President-elect is voters believed Hillary to be corrupt. But wikileaks revealed even more corruption on the left, and confirmed we have a dishonest, biased press.
Yet Smugs still want to feign offence at "lies" and pretend to value truth.
Sorry, that does not wash.
I give him credit for how he handled himself well at that show; He listened politely, from all accounts, to what was a polite appeal to use his coming influence in a compassionate way, and not to 'go low', as his running mate has with regards to immigrants.
He listened politely to an unhinged accusatory harangue by someone who is quite ill-informed and probably did not even vote. And the funny thing is: what did 0bama ever do for blacks? Their unemployment rate is still twice that of whites. And it is several times that in the inner cities. And those cities are awash in gun violence, blacks killing blacks, obama has fomented a wave of anti-police violence. If this person was informed, he could not honestly pretend 0bama has been a friend to blacks.
VQ
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"Pence lied his way through the campaign. That's not class."
The Left seems to always equate disagreements on policy with Republicans as saying they are "lying".
A brief list of a few of Pence's obvious lies are listed below. Just so we are clear, a lie is not a 'disagreement on policy'. A lie is when you say something you know to be untrue.
Truth matters to the electorate.
Apparently not, since both Trump and Pence lied their way through the entire campaign.
"I give him credit for how he handled himself well at that show; He listened politely, from all accounts, to what was a polite appeal to use his coming influence in a compassionate way, and not to 'go low', as his running mate has with regards to immigrants."
He listened politely to an unhinged accusatory harangue by someone who is quite ill-informed and probably did not even vote.
You heard a different statement than I did. On our planet, it was a polite appeal. There was nothing 'unhinged' or 'accusatory' in it. And what did you possibly hear to lead you to conclude that the statement was written by someone 'quite ill-informed'? Something fact based in there we should know about?
Here are a few of Pence's lies.
MIKE PENCE LIE
"State Department officials actually directed contracts for the Haitian recovery after the earthquake to friends of the Clintons."
MIKE PENCE LIE
Says Donald Trump "hasn’t broken his promise" to release his tax returns.
MIKE PENCE LIE
"10 cents on the dollar from the Clinton Foundation goes to charitable causes."
MIKE PENCE LIE
"Donald Trump’s been completely consistent" about his plan for nonviolent undocumented immigrants.
MIKE PENCE LIE
Says Hillary Clinton "took 13 hours to send help to Americans under fire" during the terrorist attack in Benghazi.
MIKE PENCE LIE
"Anybody who is familiar with the historical data from the IRS knows that raising income tax rates will likely actually reduce federal revenues."
MIKE PENCE LIE
"Should Democrats get their way, every income tax bracket will increase on Jan. 1, 2011. Every single one."
MIKE PENCE LIE
"This administration and this Congress have been systematically cutting funding to border security since the Democrats took control."
MIKE PENCE LIE
The Democrats propose "a government-controlled health care plan that will deprive roughly 120 million Americans of their current health care coverage."
MIKE PENCE LIE
The stimulus has "$30 million in there to protect mice in San Francisco."
MIKE PENCE LIE
During the VP debate, Kaine pointed out that Trump has called NATO “obsolete,” which Pence said wasn’t true. It is true. He denied that Trump said more countries should have nuclear weapons. It is true. LIES.
If you really want a laugh, google Pence's speech before Congress on the topic of evolution. Not only is he a liar, but an ignoramus to boot. It was a plea for teaching religion in science class, nothing more, and displayed an all to common ignorance of basic science.
Being an ignorant liar, or lying ignoramus - neither is a recipe for 'class'.
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Pence lied his way through the campaign. That's not class.
The Left seems to always equate disagreements on policy with Republicans as saying they are "lying".
A brief list of a few of Pence's obvious lies are listed below. Just so we are clear, a lie is not a 'disagreement on policy'. A lie is when you say something you know to be untrue.
So did Hillary lie about emails? Did 0bama lie about healthcare?
Truth matters to the electorate.
Apparently not, since both Trump and Pence lied their way through the entire campaign.
Well, trouble is Hillary is viewed as untrustworthy by 67% of voters.
But you are fine with that, which reflects hypocrisy.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2016/07/15/nytcbs-pol...
I went through the Pence "lies" and I did not see a lie. I did see several things you may not know to be true. And I saw predictions and policy opinions.
And I notice there were no links to document these "lies". No surprise since the Left prefers to deal in innuendo and simply made up stuff rather than facts.
I will take one of the Pence "lies" you cite:
"10 cents on the dollar from the Clinton Foundation goes to charitable causes"
Pence was being generous.
"Clinton Foundation Spent Less Than 6 Percent On Charitable Grants In 2014"
http://thefederalist.com/2016/09/16/clinton-foundation-spent...
Cheers!
VQ
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Pence was being generous.
"Clinton Foundation Spent Less Than 6 Percent On Charitable Grants In 2014"
That is an often used but phony way of denigrating charitable organizations.
"Although it has ‘foundation’ in its name, the Clinton Foundation is actually a public charity," Brian Mittendorf, a professor of accounting at Ohio State University’s Fisher College of Business, wrote in the Chronicle of Philanthropy. "In practical terms, this means both that it relies heavily on donations from the public and that it achieves its mission primarily by using those donations to conduct direct charitable activities, as opposed to providing grants from an endowment."
Direct activities do not show up as endowments. Read up.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/aug/...
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" VQ: The Hamilton rogues? completely the opposite.
Rogues? Oh, you precious petunia.... you wither so sweetly."
It would have been a real class act if the entire audience got up and walked out.
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What the cast did was rude and inappropriate.
The right trying to lecture us on what is rude and inappropriate?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Maybe your brain cells are incapable of remembering anything older than 8 seconds, but the rest of us remember the last 8 years.
AW
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It would have been a real class act if the entire audience got up and walked out.
_______________
Liberals, putting their money where there mouth is?
Little chance of that.
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The right trying to lecture us on what is rude and inappropriate?
________________________________
rarely do I agree with you.
But when it comes to rude and inappropriate, it really is hard to say you folks have anything left to master.
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Maybe your brain cells are incapable of remembering anything older than 8 seconds, but the rest of us remember the last 8 years.
AW
==============================================================
You think you were traumatized by criticism of Obama?
Just wait. The NEXT eight years will give you some things to REALLY remember. Burned deep into the brain pan.
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Pence was being generous.
"Clinton Foundation Spent Less Than 6 Percent On Charitable Grants In 2014"
That is an often used but phony way of denigrating charitable organizations. .
Your disagreement with his characterization in no way makes it a "lie".
thanks for helping prove my point.
VQ
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You don't ask it of your presidential nominee, your vice-presidential nominee, your senators, representatives, the people in media you listen to, or yourselves.
Careful. You are attacking most of America.
VQ
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It is why you have the reputation you do on these boards.
It is easy to tell when you have lost a discussion.
First, there has been a discussion.
VQ
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Pence was being generous.
"Clinton Foundation Spent Less Than 6 Percent On Charitable Grants In 2014"
That is an often used but phony way of denigrating charitable organizations.
"Your disagreement with his characterization in no way makes it a "lie"."
Sorry, but it is still a lie. Pence said "10 cents on the dollar from the Clinton Foundation goes to charitable causes", which is BS. The 6% number you cited is the amount given directly as charitable grants. The rest of the operation he was trying to slime is dedicated to 'charitable causes'.
"thanks for helping prove my point."
Sorry, I didn't.
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Your disagreement with his characterization in no way makes it a "lie".
Sorry, but it is still a lie. Pence said "10 cents on the dollar from the Clinton Foundation goes to charitable causes", which is BS. The 6% number you cited is the amount given directly as charitable grants. The rest of the operation he was trying to slime is dedicated to 'charitable causes'.
Please list the charitable causes then?
And thanks for helping me make my point.
You do not care about truth, but anything you disagree with is a "lie".
VQ
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Please list the charitable causes then?
Go look yourself; https://www.clintonfoundation.org
And thanks for helping me make my point.
As you haven't actually made a point, I can hardly have helped.
You do not care about truth, but anything you disagree with is a "lie".
I showed where Pence lied, in multiple areas, over time, in easily verifiable ways. It doesn't matter whether I agree or not, a lie is still a lie. What "truth" do you believe I don't care about?
