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... in Santa Monica at present. Peaceful demonstration in LA at Pershing Square.

CNC
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To be fair, "if it bleeds it leads". Peaceful protests aren't attention-grabbing. I suspect 99% of protests have been peaceful. But that 1% is "more interesting", so it gets the coverage, and then everyone thinks America is coming apart at the seams.

Which we may be, and I don't think it's over the protests.
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How angry I feel.
How sad I feel.
How confused I feel.
How sad I feel.
How fearful I feel.
How sad I feel.
How hopeful I feel in brief glimpses.
How sad I feel.

Here in Mexico we live, everyday, with insane corruption, abuse, stupidity, and malice. But even here in Mexico, due to longstanding powerful emotional connections (mostly all those permanently absent fathers and uncles and cousins sending money and stories home from construction sites and meat processing plants and day laboring, but also because California was settled by people from here) the feeling of devastation and amazement about the disaster of the USA is tough for me to cope with. “David, WTF!!? is the USA doing?”

CNC (and Sano and all the rest of you Southern Californians) I am very very very interested in your eyewitness reports.

And you know, here where I live it is getting tough and scary — husband and I are focused on keeping neighbors from going hungry (sometimes their children come to us because parents are ashamed to ask for help), and keeping them informed on how to avoid spread of the virus — but the late spring flowering and thunderstorms with rainbows and joyful singing birds nesting in our walkways and ten species of wondrous butterflies and an amazingly friendly curious ....it is surreal living.


David fb
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but the late spring flowering and thunderstorms with rainbows and joyful singing birds nesting in our walkways and ten species of wondrous butterflies and an amazingly friendly curious ....it is surreal living.

I imagine it looking something like this.
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/371218509238-0-1/s-l1000.jpg
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CNC (and Sano and all the rest of you Southern Californians) I am very very very interested in your eyewitness reports.

About 500 people demonstrated in San CLemente. They assembled down by the pier at about 2:

They walked up DelMar Street to Pacific Coast Highway and walked about a mile.

They turned around and went to the pier and left.

Merchants had tables set up on the sidewalks serving icewater to the demonstrators.

Some counter demonstrators tried to start arguments but the OC Sheriffs kept separation.

It was over by 7ish
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Huntington Beach,

hundreds of demonstrators lined PCH. Counter demonstrators showed up. Sheriffs declared unlawful assembly and shut it down.
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The mall area in Santa Monica got looted like crazy... NatGuard on scene
Sheriff said looters came from all over - that they weren't demonstrators...they just came to loot.
Lots of out of state plates.
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Long Beach also suffering HUGE looting along LB Blvd and the Promenade... not protesting... Nat Guard in route.
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Also a strip mall in San Bernardino
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My family says the 'antifa' punks are looting and burning Oakland.
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Looking at the TV, the looters look young and aggressive. SOme are down and out criminals.
Stupid, poorly educated losers with nothing to lose... so they loot.
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My family says the 'antifa' punks are looting and burning Oakland.
_________________________________________________


Looking at the TV, the looters look young and aggressive. SOme are down and out criminals.
Stupid, poorly educated losers with nothing to lose... so they loot.


Why doesn’t anyone ask them, if they are left wing, or right wing?

My bet is they are all right wing, proud of it, and stupid enough to brag about it.
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My bet is they are all right wing, proud of it, and stupid enough to brag about it.

The Santa Monica Police sergeant expressed the belief that the looters are apolitical opportunists.

My sister and her husband are Oakland DAs.

He says 'shoot the looters' (jokingly).

She says there will be no end to recurrences as long as the underlying issues are not resolved.

Riots due to social and economic inequity are nothing new to mankind.

Clearly the US Constitution did not alleviate the issues underlying riots and looting.
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Actually, they should shoot the looters. Those people are just stealing. Protests, even angry protests, are one thing. Smashing an Apple store and stealing iPads is just theft. When done on a large scale I believe the national guard has been called out and will shoot looters.
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The Santa Monica Police sergeant expressed the belief that the looters are apolitical opportunists... there will be no end to recurrences as long as the underlying issues are not resolved. Riots due to social and economic inequity are nothing new to mankind.

"Opportunists"? So not Antifa. And not Boogaloo. Rather, Mad Maxxers. Clockwork Orangers. Burn, baby, burners.

Are the police arresting them? If not, why not? No one has sympathy for this type of crayzee.
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Rather, Mad Maxxers. Clockwork Orangers. Burn, baby, burners.

Not even anarchists.... just low-life thieves. Craigslist needs to get inventory somehow.
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Have SWAT make PA announcements: "Come out empty handed and go home. Come out carrying, get shot."

And then shoot anybody coming out of a store with loot.

There were plenty of opportunities to be an equal opportunity shooter yesterday in Santa Monica and Long Beach.

Just put a go-pro on the rifle to document that the rounds landed where the laser dot was.

Be an equal opportunity sniper... take down looters man woman man woman rotate and ethnicity to get a non-discriminating stack of bodies.
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"Have SWAT make PA announcements: 'Come out empty handed and go home. Come out carrying, get shot.' And then shoot anybody coming out of a store with loot."

WTF? Judge, jury and summary executioner all for the price of one? For what? A toaster? A microwave? A TV? A laptop? A bag of potatoes? Isn't that what started this in the first place?
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WTF? Judge, jury and summary executioner all for the price of one? For what? A toaster? A microwave? A TV? A laptop? A bag of potatoes? Isn't that what started this in the first place?

Lighten up Frances.... TMF doesn't have *winkie* emojis.
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Lighten up Frances....

Rec for the Stripes reference. :-)

However, it is my understanding that when the NG is called-out, they will shoot looters on sight. No questions asked.
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Actually, they should shoot the looters.

???

In a different setting, we would have protests for cops shooting someone instead of trying to apprehend them for stealing said iPad. Killed for stealing something worth $100.

national guard has been called out and will shoot looters.

I doubt it. As a past member of the armed forces, I doubt that I could pull the trigger to murder someone for stealing a tv. I neither think I would be in the minority nor do I think those asked to issue such orders would feel much different than I.

Would you murder someone for stealing an iPad if you were a member of the NG? If not, then perhaps you should identify why you may think less of those that serve.
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Would you murder someone for stealing an iPad if you were a member of the NG?

I think it was Katrina that those orders were given. I think the existence of those orders stopped the looting, so no one was shot (as I recall).

If I'm a grunt, I obey orders. I knew a guy who knew a guy who almost shot a colonel. The colonel didn't have his ID, and when challenged pushed past the sentry. Colonel was smart enough to heed the warning of the sentry when he raised his weapon to fire and said "halt or I'll shoot".

We're not talking My Lai here, we're talking looters. People that have given in to mob psychology. They can be very dangerous, and that is why the NG is called.

Me? If it was a lone looter, I'd probably point my weapon at him and tell him to stop. Then arrest him. If it's 50 people raiding an Apple store, I'd probably first fire my weapon into landscape or a wall to get their attention, but if I had to -and there were orders to do so- I'd shoot them. It's not about a few iPads. It's about the complete breakdown of civil order where mob psychology has taken hold. That will spin out of control really quickly. The lost iPads are probably covered by insurance. Out-of-control mobs can get innocent people killed.

1poorguy
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We're not talking My Lai here, we're talking looters.

We're talking people the shooters may posthumously label looters.

You see in Louisville where the police said they 'returned' fire and killed a (get your surprised face ready) unarmed black man? All the police body cameras were conveniently off. The police chief got fired but the shooters will go uncharged.

At this point, I almost trust the looters more than the uniformed gangs.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/louisville-protests-man-sh...
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All the police body cameras were conveniently off.

Body cams are a joke since they can turn them off anytime they like. Maybe going to the bathroom, but otherwise they should be always-on.

As albaby said, having an encounter with the police is one of the most dangerous things you can do. Sadly, especially if you're a person of color. I have never had a negative encounter (always professional, never scary). But I sometimes think I'm the exception to the rule.

1poorguy (a few auto accidents, two speeding tickets, and an occasional bumping into them in stores or eateries when they weren't there on official business; in about 40 years)
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"Have SWAT make PA announcements: 'Come out empty handed and go home. Come out carrying, get shot.' And then shoot anybody coming out of a store with loot."

WTF? Judge, jury and summary executioner all for the price of one? For what? A toaster? A microwave? A TV? A laptop? A bag of potatoes? Isn't that what started this in the first place?


In this scenario, they were given a simple choice. So, yes, for what?

How would you feel if there is a dead or dying security guard or owner within the store? The looters can be in the midst of destroying someone's life. Who was being judge, jury, and executioner?

But I think it does matter if it's a grocery store or a jewelry store.

And, no, it's not what started this in the first place. That was a cop brutalizing a prisoner in custody and secured, to the point of death. The equivalent in this situation would be the SWAT officer going over to someone that had been shot in the leg, and finishing the job.



How would you prevent looting?
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How would you feel if there is a dead or dying security guard or owner within the store? The looters can be in the midst of destroying someone's life. Who was being judge, jury, and executioner?

Jumping in here to put in a word on the legalities:

It is sometimes legal to use deadly force to prevent injuries to people. It is almost never legal to use deadly force to prevent destruction or theft of property.

So it changes things entirely if there is a person in the store. What you've described in your initial suggestion (that the SWAT team be more willing to use deadly force against people who are carrying looted items than those who are not) is completely illegal. The police are forbidden from using deadly force to apprehend someone committing a property crime absent a threat of force by that person against another human being.

You can't just shoot looters. Looting is not a capital crime.

Albaby
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How would you prevent looting?

Arrest, jail, trial, sentence, and incarcerate them.

Don’t just murder them.
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The police are forbidden from using deadly force to apprehend someone committing a property crime absent a threat of force by that person against another human being.

Except apparently they're not, per a Supreme Court decision another poster linked that says they aren't liable if they are acting in "good faith" (which means whatever someone wants it to mean, IMHO).

So apparently they can shoot looters, and especially if they're black since we evidently have a dual standard in this country (which is beyond scary).
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Except apparently they're not, per a Supreme Court decision another poster linked that says they aren't liable if they are acting in "good faith" (which means whatever someone wants it to mean, IMHO).

No, they're not allowed to use deadly force to apprehend someone committing a property crime absent a threat of force by that person against another human being.

The SCOTUS decision dealt with what happens when they make a mistake, and use deadly force when they believe they are allowed to but later find that they were wrong. But the rule itself has not changed.

So regardless of whether you think that the SCOTUS decision gives de facto license for police to kill in more contexts, that's not what the poster was suggesting. It would still be blatantly illegal for a SWAT team to announce and then carry out that they were going to use deadly force based on whether the suspect was carrying a stolen object or not.

You can't do that. You can't use deadly force against someone you know is committing just a property crime.

Albaby
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albabt: You can't do that. You can't use deadly force against someone you know is committing just a property crime.

What if they are invading my house? My store?

CNC
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What if they are invading my house? My store?

In CA you probably can't do much. I think in NY you are required to retreat if you can.

Last I knew in AZ, you can shoot them dead. As long as they're in your house. If they're outside it becomes a bit more dicey. Van O'Steen used to do a law column in the paper, and he did one that I still remember 30 years later. The law may well have changed by now, but at the time he wrote that if you saw someone in the street with your TV you could shoot them dead. You better be able to prove it's your TV or you're in a world of trouble. But if you could prove it, it was considered legal.

1poorguy
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What if they are invading my house? My store?

If you're in it? You can use force to prevent them from entering if you can't retreat, or if you're in a state with a Stand Your Ground law (or castle doctrine, for a residence). That's because home invasion carries with it a threat of personal harm to the people who are inside of it.

But if you are driving by and see someone breaking into your home or store? You can't just shoot them. That's property crime - and property crime is not a capital offense.

Albaby
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How would you prevent looting?

Arrest, jail, trial, sentence, and incarcerate them.

Don’t just murder them.


Good luck arresting even a few looters. Why would anyone stop to be arrested? Easier to run and get away. Why doesn't everyone run when told to freeze?

You're not preventing anything.

And in the cited scenario, they are offered the option to run away, without loot.

Too bad we don't have the nets that they used to capture Arnold in The Running Man.

But, fine, tell me how you plan to apprehend all the looters? They're currently in the store. Let's assume you have enough police/NG to have it surrounded. How do you proceed?
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tell me how you plan to apprehend all the looters?

You don't. You don't even try. Just like a single cop can't apprehend every speeder on the road.

You might even ignore the looters and focus your efforts on those starting fires or committing violence.
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tell me how you plan to apprehend all the looters?

Ummm... that’s actually what police do. They’re even trained in it. Equipped for it. Its, like, their job and even their career. Many of them love the take-down more than anything.

Feeling lucky today, punk? Go ahead. Make my day. Resist arrest.
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But, fine, tell me how you plan to apprehend all the looters? They're currently in the store. Let's assume you have enough police/NG to have it surrounded. How do you proceed?

This is not hard. You place them under arrest and order them to lay down on the ground so you can cuff them.

Let's assume they don't comply. The police are authorized to use non-deadly force to subdue a suspect that isn't complying. They do it all the time. They can grab them, restrain them, tase them, hit them with batons - there are countless instances where the police use force to restrain suspects all the time.

You can't just shoot them - and you certainly can't choose to just shoot the ones carrying stolen property.

Albaby
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