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http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2007186

Congrats to both on outstanding seasons!

Diane
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Very nice.
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Now Manning better PLAY like an MVP this playoff season. At least McNair has won some playoff games.

77
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Count this Patriots fan happy that McNair/Manning shared the honors since the MVP has proven to be the kiss of death in recent years.

Consider the last 3 years...

2000 MVP -> Marshall Faulk. Ravens won the big one.

2001 MVP -> Kurt Warner. Patriots upset Rams in Superbow.

2002 MVP -> Rich Gannon. Bucs crush the Raiders.

Therefore I'm very grateful to all the AP pollsters for not selecting Tom Brady as the MVP.
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http://www.publicopiniononline.com/news/stories/20040101/localsports/148333.html

Somebody agrees with my thought that Vanderjagt could/should have gotten some consideration for MVP.

Diane
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Somebody agrees with my thought that Vanderjagt could/should have gotten some consideration for MVP.


Pretty good season for an "idiot kicker" who gets "liquored up". Think the Colts are glad they didn't cut him out of spite after last season's catfight between Vandy and Peyton?

--WP
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Somebody agrees with my thought that Vanderjagt could/should have gotten some consideration for MVP.

Sorry, but not me. If they want to create an award for Kicker of the Year, that's fine, and he is probably a good choice to receive such an award this year (though my vote would go to Jeff Wilkins). But an MVP needs to be involved in pretty much every down the way a position player is.

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Somebody agrees with my thought that Vanderjagt could/should have gotten some consideration for MVP.


dianagram is already one of your Favorite Fools.


Now with that said, no. Vanderjagt is a kicker, not a football player. On top of that, he's a kicker who plays indoors. Even more, he's a kicker whose "perfect" season was saved in week 5 when his OT kick to beat the Bucs went wide right, but Simeon Rice was called for leaping, and his follow-up effort only went through because Ellis Wyms got a hand on it to knock it back on line.

I'm glad for the Colts that he wasn't all liquored up and had a good year, but no kicker should ever win the MVP. The fact that Mark Mosely won it during the strike year is a travesty.








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Couldn't they have found a Raven to give this award too?

Craig
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Somebody agrees with my thought that Vanderjagt could/should have gotten some consideration for MVP.


dianagram is already one of your Favorite Fools.


Now with that said, no. Vanderjagt is a kicker, not a football player. On top of that, he's a kicker who plays indoors. Even more, he's a kicker whose "perfect" season was saved in week 5 when his OT kick to beat the Bucs went wide right, but Simeon Rice was called for leaping, and his follow-up effort only went through because Ellis Wyms got a hand on it to knock it back on line.

I'm glad for the Colts that he wasn't all liquored up and had a good year, but no kicker should ever win the MVP. The fact that Mark Mosely won it during the strike year is a travesty.

bdluckyshot

============================

I should have clarified. I think Vanderjagt deserved "consideration". I don't think he was the MVP. Does the MVP voting only allow for 1 "place" (no 2nd place, 3rd place votes) like they do in baseball?

I would have given him a vote between 8th and 10th place on my ballot.

Diane
- and yes ... Jeff Wilkins had a hell of a year too, but the Rams were blowing teams out, Vandy had more pressure kicks (I think)
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Sorry, but not me. If they want to create an award for Kicker of the Year, that's fine, and he is probably a good choice to receive such an award this year (though my vote would go to Jeff Wilkins). But an MVP needs to be involved in pretty much every down the way a position player is.


I agree. I think the kicker is a key spot on the team, but you have to be involved in more than 40 or so plays a season in order to qualify as an MVP for the league. A position player can both create and finish an opportunity. The kicker can only finish one--a kicker can't create an opportunity for himself, like a RB who breaks out a 60 yarder or a DB making a big INT.

That said, he still had a hell of a year. Now I'm just waiting for him to miss a game winning field goal in the conference playoffs as his first miss of the year.

--WP, still in recovery from Gary Anderson's 1998 season
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Jeff Wilkins had a hell of a year too, but the Rams were blowing teams out,

Not always. He had a couple of games where he kicked a FG at the end to win it. There were also a couple of games where he kicked 4 FG's and the Rams won by 12 points.
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If they want to create an award for Kicker of the Year, that's fine, and he is probably a good choice to receive such an award this year (though my vote would go to Jeff Wilkins).

A Ram? I know and Chris would vote for Stover. {;^D

Jeff
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Vanderjagt is a kicker, not a football player.

Funny that kickers play more than, say, nickle DB's or 3rd string special teams players, yet still get dissed for not being "real football players." If they're not really players, then why are they on NFL rosters? Why do kickers usually lead the league in scoring? Why not just go for it on every 4th down and always go for 2?

Vanderjagt and every other kicker/punter are football players. Some of 'em are even really good. Should kickers ever be MVPs? I would say they should not even be considered unless they had several (as in 4+) game winning FG's and make >90% of their FG's.

If you don't think kickers can make a difference, tell Oakland and St. Louis that about Adam Vinatieri a few years ago.

DK
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What a load of crap! I don't remember this being called the "Most Valuable PlayerS" award!

I know it's voted on and they got equal votes and all, but still, I feel slighted. "Steve McNair drops back to pass...he was the 2003 co-MVP of the league". To me, that's a meaningless title. I dunno...maybe I'm just full of it.

Tough to say there should be 51 voters though cause it's still possible to have a tie in that case. But in such cases, I think there should be a reserve voter who gets to break a tie if there is one.

Or something.

Niner...

Whatever, I think it's kinda dumb.

- C -
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Vanderjagt and every other kicker/punter are football players.


Under the strictest definition, sure they are. They put on a helmet and shoulder pads (for some reason) and go out there and kick the football. However, have you ever seen a kicker try to make a tackle on a long special teams play? Save for Janikowski and a couple of others, the most you'll see from a kicker/punter is to try to slow down the runner enough for someone else to make the tackle. And if there's any contact with the runner, the odds are at least even money that they'll be slow getting up before they limp off the field.


If you don't think kickers can make a difference, tell Oakland and St. Louis that about Adam Vinatieri a few years ago.


I'm not saying that having a good kicker isn't important. Vinatieri, Vanderjagt, Wilkins, and until this year, Martin Gramatica, are significant weapons, because they allow you the opportunity to score from a field position where other kickers may not.

But they're not football players.
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However, have you ever seen a kicker try to make a tackle on a long special teams play? Save for Janikowski and a couple of others, the most you'll see from a kicker/punter is to try to slow down the runner enough for someone else to make the tackle. And if there's any contact with the runner, the odds are at least even money that they'll be slow getting up before they limp off the field.

Have you ever seen a defensive lineman try to kick a 42 yard field goal into the wind with the game on the line? Have you ever seen a running back kick off? Have you ever seen a linebacker punt a ball 52 yards?

But they're not football players.

So what's your definition of a football player? That he has to run fast and make tackles? Seriously, I don't understand why you don't think they are football players. That's like saying Randy Johnson isn't a "real baseball player" because he doesn't hit 40 home runs, have 120 RBI, and only plays every 4-5 days.

DK
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So what's your definition of a football player? That he has to run fast and make tackles? Seriously, I don't understand why you don't think they are football players. That's like saying Randy Johnson isn't a "real baseball player" because he doesn't hit 40 home runs, have 120 RBI, and only plays every 4-5 days.

Makes you wonder what sport those 'punt pass and kick' tournaments were for...
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So what's your definition of a football player? That he has to run fast and make tackles? Seriously, I don't understand why you don't think they are football players. That's like saying Randy Johnson isn't a "real baseball player" because he doesn't hit 40 home runs, have 120 RBI, and only plays every 4-5 days.

DK



I'm with BD on this one, they are specialists who serve the needs of a football team.

If we're going to insist that they are football players - by the broadest definition possible - then fine, call them situational football specialists, like an American league closer.

mick

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If we're going to insist that they are football players - by the broadest definition possible - then fine, call them situational football specialists, like an American league closer.

What is an American league closer? What's the difference between an American League closer and a National League closer? 7 AB?
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What is an American league closer? What's the difference between an American League closer and a National League closer? 7 AB?

I think 7 is low but I get your point.

Yeah, an American League closer is a pitcher who may never stand in a batter's box throughout his entire career.

The main point being that given the advancing rate of specialization in sports, we are broadening the definition of athletes. The AL has simply furthered this by creating the DH and the pitcher who (in many cases but not all) never has to face live pitching.

mick

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What is an American league closer? What's the difference between an American League closer and a National League closer? 7 AB?

I think 7 is low but I get your point.

Yeah, an American League closer is a pitcher who may never stand in a batter's box throughout his entire career.


Seven would be low for a career, but not a season. As an example, Trevor Hoffman has been in the NL for his entire 11 seasons and has averaged 3 ABs per year. He hasn't batted at all since 2001.

John Smoltz has been a full time NL closer for two seasons and has a total of 3 ABs in that time. Even including 2001 (when he started some games in addition to relieving) the total only jumps to 10 over that period.
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"What is an American league closer? What's the difference between an American League closer and a National League closer? 7 AB?

I think 7 is low but I get your point.

Yeah, an American League closer is a pitcher who may never stand in a batter's box throughout his entire career.

Seven would be low for a career, but not a season. As an example, Trevor Hoffman has been in the NL for his entire 11 seasons and has averaged 3 ABs per year. He hasn't batted at all since 2001.

John Smoltz has been a full time NL closer for two seasons and has a total of 3 ABs in that time. Even including 2001 (when he started some games in addition to relieving) the total only jumps to 10 over that period."

Hey..... wait a minute. Did I make a wrong turn or is this still 77's Foolish House of PIGSKIN?

;)

77
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I'm with BD on this one, they are specialists who serve the needs of a football team.
If we're going to insist that they are football players - by the broadest definition possible - then fine, call them situational football specialists, like an American league closer.
mick


Heck, unless somebody plays both ways, you could say the same for all football players. Ray Lewis is only a specialist in stopping the run--he can't even cover Marvin Harrison on a deep route. Tom Brady can only pass the ball and hand off to RBs, he can't even shed a pulling guard and stuff the run in the backfield. Orlando Pace can only run/pass block, he can't throw a deep ball worth a crap.

What it sounds to me like is that kickers aren't perceived as "real football players" because they're not big, fast, and banging heads on every play. Even though they have a skill set that very few others have.

DK
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If we're going to insist that they are football players - by the broadest definition possible - then fine, call them situational football specialists ........

What it sounds to me like is that kickers aren't perceived as "real football players" because .......

------------

Ironically they are the one who use their feet to the balls.
Perhaps the name of the game should be the one to change?


;o)
--H
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"Heck, unless somebody plays both ways, you could say the same for all football players. Ray Lewis is only a specialist in stopping the run--he can't even cover Marvin Harrison on a deep route. Tom Brady can only pass the ball and hand off to RBs, he can't even shed a pulling guard and stuff the run in the backfield. Orlando Pace can only run/pass block, he can't throw a deep ball worth a crap."

I guess Peyton Manning needs some help in the 2 deep zone. Orlando Pace throws the best deep ball I've ever seen..........puts Marino & Elway to shame. Gilbert Brown is the perfect complement to McKenzie in man coverage. Champ Bailey will make the most incredible calls as a Center.

"What it sounds to me like is that kickers aren't perceived as "real football players" because they're not big, fast, and banging heads on every play. Even though they have a skill set that very few others have."

If he's not my kicker, I have no use for them..........;).

77


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What it sounds to me like is that kickers aren't perceived as "real football players" because they're not big, fast, and banging heads on every play. Even though they have a skill set that very few others have.

DK



That's correct to an extent.

Although for me, they're not football players because they needn't be athletes to fufill their specialty. Then again, neither are golfers.

mick

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Back to the topic, I think the winners were deserving and I don't see a problem with Co-MVPs if that's how the votes fall.

As a Ptriots fan, I was pleasantly surprised to see Tom Brady's 3rd place finish. The team has become known for it's defense, which has been outstanding, but Brady has become the glue that holds the team together. I didn't know if he would be recognized for this, but he was. All he does is win, it seems. He's cool under pressure. He's 7-0 in overtime, which is a telling statistic, even if he had a little help from Olindo Mare.

I like to think that it could be argued that he was the MVP this year, but I know that's not realistic. He didn't put up the kind of numbers that the other two guys did, but when it comes down to crunch time, I think I'd like Brady running my team. This is with all due respect to Steve McNair, who also has proven to be a great and clutch QB.
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Gilbert Brown is the perfect complement to McKenzie in man coverage.

Only when Ted Washington is lined-up at wideout.

nw
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Gilbert Brown is the perfect complement to McKenzie in man coverage.

Only when Ted Washington is lined-up at wideout.


Bump and waddle coverage?
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"Bump and waddle coverage?"

More like bump & roll.............

77
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That's correct to an extent.
Although for me, they're not football players because they needn't be athletes to fufill their specialty. Then again, neither are golfers.
mick


Dude! Go out and try to punt a football 60+ yards in the air with 5 seconds hang time. Or kick a 40 yard field goal, a veritable chip shot by today's standards. I won't even put the stipulation that there be a defense trying to block it. To say that they aren't athletes is absurd.

And if you haven't tried it, golf ain't that easy either. =)

DK
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Dude! Go out and try to punt a football 60+ yards in the air with 5 seconds hang time. Or kick a 40 yard field goal, a veritable chip shot by today's standards. I won't even put the stipulation that there be a defense trying to block it. To say that they aren't athletes is absurd.

And if you haven't tried it, golf ain't that easy either. =)

DK



If someone is punting 60+ yards in the air with 5 second hang time, I'd like to see it...why isn't he in the NFL?

I maintain it's a specialty, a necessary one - but a specialty nonetheless. And one that does not necessarily require athleticism. A good kicking talent? Sure. But athleticism? Nuh-uh.

I don't equate degree of difficulty with athleticism either. I agree golf isn't easy, but then again, neither is sitting perfectly still for an hour.

mick

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If someone is punting 60+ yards in the air with 5 second hang time, I'd like to see it...why isn't he in the NFL?

The guy with the worst punting average in the NFL this year is Stryzinski for the Jets with a 37.4 yard average. Tack on the 15 for the snap, and the worst guy is hitting for 52.4 in the air. I'll grant you the 5-second hang time, though--that's Ray Guy-like, and not average--it's probably more like 4.5 seconds on average.

I maintain it's a specialty, a necessary one - but a specialty nonetheless. And one that does not necessarily require athleticism. A good kicking talent? Sure. But athleticism? Nuh-uh.

I guess I still don't understand what your definition of an athlete or athleticism is. I contend that you could say athletes have "only a specialty" in any sport. Michael Johnson can only run fast. Barry Sanders can only run fast and be elusive. If you say that a guy is an athlete because he can do things in sports that few others (if any) can do better, then kickers certainly apply.

DK
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I guess I still don't understand what your definition of an athlete or athleticism is.

The standard dictionary version would suffice for me.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=athleticism

I contend that you could say athletes have "only a specialty" in any sport. Michael Johnson can only run fast. Barry Sanders can only run fast and be elusive.

I generally agree with this.

If you say that a guy is an athlete because he can do things in sports that few others (if any) can do better, then kickers certainly apply.

DK


No, that's what you've been saying. I'm saying something completely different.

Hence my previous example that a specialty does not necessarily make an athlete.

mick
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