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No. of Recommendations: 3
I've got an opinion I'd like to bounce off y'all.

Since the Palestinian's goal is to make Israel Palestine and nothing short of that, then what in blinkin' blazes is the reasoning behind putting them in such close proximity to their goal except to see who would win the war?

AND

What's Israel thinkin' in agreeing to the arrangement?

I understand the Palestinian position on the whole thing is that they were there first. Well, they weren't. It's a historical fact. I expect the Indians and the Mexicans and the French and the English could have the same argument about the US, but it don't hold water.

Possesion is what counts on the international front. (That, and the ability to hold possesion. Just ask Saddam about that one!)

If I'm a soverign nation and some group of people decide that I shouldn't be, I'm going to keep them as far away as I can. Especially if they like to play 'terrorist'. Can my police force find who is actually personally responsible for terrorist activities? Heck no. So what do I do for the people I'm sworn to protect?

Retaliate.

It isn't the most ellegant of recourses, but there really aren't any. Whatever else happens, I've got to make sure there's no advantage in killing my people.

The media doesn't make it very clear what Palestine wants.

Jerusalem is the site of the most holiest of places to both the Jewish and Christian religions. Well, it's also the most holiest of places to the Palestinians and Jerusalem is what they want, only they call it Palestine. It's what they want- not the west bank, not Chicago, but Jerusalem- and they won't be satisfied 'till they get it.

It's a sad situation, but you can't blame Israel for doing what it's doing.

Bill Clinton picked the wrong dispute on which to hang his 'peacemaker' hat. What he did was create the most potentially violent atmosphere we've seen since Abel got parental preferrential treatment and Cain took offense!

I've read the Koran and it has more to say against the horror of doing harm to others than the Bible! So what's all this terrorism crap? If there is indeed an Allah, he's got to be more concerned (according to his teachings) about the violence his people are condoning in his name against innocent people than the ownership of some piece of real estate!

If there are any Arabs out there, I got a question.

How can it be justified to set off bombs in public places where innocent people are to further the cause of the destruction of a race of people that happen to occupy Palestine?

k

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No. of Recommendations: 2
Khalou...

1st of all, I did not answer the heart of your question before.

YES, an American company could pay real wages in Mexico, and succeed. Of Course, the company would have to wait a long time, before OTHER companies began to pay the same wages. It takes a while to grow a middle class IMO.
******

On the Middle East:

Personally, I can see both sides of it. I think each side has a legit beef. No matter WHAT side one is for, I agree about bombing in public places, and civilians. That is ludicrous. Frankly, I think those are done NOT by people with an agenda, but lunatics who just want an excuse to kill. Alot of these folks are taught at birth, that they will go to heaven for killing the enemy. Lets say, Palestine GOT 100% of what they want, do you think for one minute the violence will stop? NO, it only takes one lunatic, and they are breeding tons of them. The age 14-24 male bracket, is going to grow at record levels in years to come in that region.

Frankly, Im sick of it. Im sick of both the sides. Im sick of us being dragged into it. There 2 idiots have fought since the beginning of time, and NO ONE will stop it.

This sounds cruel and heartless, and does not reflect my view of the general public in either country, but rather to the gov't of each side. I feel NO sadness if they go to war. I jope it is a long drawn out war, with heavy military casualties. Frankly, I think it would be good for the world. Just like the Iran-Iraq war, ask yourself the hard question, when BOTH those armies suffered casualties, DID the world gain, or loose?....We lost millions of lunatics. So be it.

I never believed in things like "Armageddon" before. I always scoffed at it. But now, when I see waht is happening in the Middle East, and I see how the world is reacting, I feel they are going 100% by the script.

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT
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No. of Recommendations: 4
I'd like to jump in here for a sec, if that's OK...

Since the Palestinian's goal is to make Israel Palestine and nothing short of that, then what in blinkin' blazes is the reasoning behind putting them in such close proximity to their goal except to see who would win the war?
AND
What's Israel thinkin' in agreeing to the arrangement?


I think it's becoming more and more clear that this agreement (the Oslo Accords) was not a very good one, to say the least. What was Israel thinking when it agreed to the arrangement? Well, first of all, the present government had nothing to do with it. The deal was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres and Yasser Arafat. Rabin was assasinated, Peres was defeated by Benjamin Netanyahu ages ago (although he is now serving as the Foreign Minister in the National Unity Government), and Yasser Arafat remains the leader of the Palestinian cause - which as you correctly stated, has not been made clear by the media.

If I'm a soverign nation and some group of people decide that I shouldn't be, I'm going to keep them as far away as I can. Especially if they like to play 'terrorist'. Can my police force find who is actually personally responsible for terrorist activities? Heck no. So what do I do for the people I'm sworn to protect?

Retaliate.


The biggest problem that I have with this whole thing is that Yasser Arafat and the PA DO know who is personally responsible for terrorist activities, yet they have not done anything about it. The whole point of the agreement was that Arafat would stop the terror and Israel would give the Palestinians some land in return. To date, Israel has given away most of the territories in Gaza and the West Bank, as well as Hebron, one of Judaism's holiest cities. Has the hate died down at all in return? Have we seen any strides toward the PEACE part of the "Land for Peace" agreement? Why not?

If it's because:
A) Arafat has no interest in making peace with his sworn enemies, then there is simply no point in continuing with negotiations.

or

B) Arafat simply cannot control the terrorists, then what's the point of having negotiations with him? Maybe the negotiations should be with Hamas or Fatah or Hezbollah...

In the meantime, Arafat is getting rich off of his people's suffering. Where has all of the aid that the PA collected gone? I see PA ministers driving around in fancy cars and wearing nice suits while they send their people in need out to throw stones. Children's cartoons (on PA-sponsored TV) encourage their viewers to go out and fight.

This isn't the peace anyone was looking for. What we have now is a corrupt government in the PA, and a people that seems to be worse off than ever before.

In terms of your retaliation remark, I agree that the Israeli government is left with no other choice. The Barak government (foolishly) offered Arafat a deal last summer that even the Americans couldn't believe- and Arafat said NO. Supposedly, he feared that he would have been assasinated. Assasinated? For finalizing the agreement that he won a Nobel Peace Prize for?! Then why should Israel continue negotiations with this man?

Jerusalem is the site of the most holiest of places to both the Jewish and Christian religions. Well, it's also the most holiest of places to the Palestinians and Jerusalem is what they want, only they call it Palestine. It's what they want- not the west bank, not Chicago, but Jerusalem- and they won't be satisfied 'till they get it.

Jerusalem is the THIRD holiest place to the Palestinians. In fact, when they pray, they turn their backs to Jerusalem and face Mecca.
Jews all over the world face Jerusalem when they pray. Let's also not forget that the Arabs have over 20 other "Arab" countries to live in, whereas the Jews only have one place they can truly call "Home."

Bill Clinton picked the wrong dispute on which to hang his 'peacemaker' hat. What he did was create the most potentially violent atmosphere we've seen since Abel got parental preferrential treatment and Cain took offense!

Bill Clinton spent a great deal of time trying to resolve this issue, and for that he should be commended. However, because HIS time was running out as President, he put both sides at risk by pushing for an agreement they weren't ready to make, based on conditions they couldn't agree to follow.


How can it be justified to set off bombs in public places where innocent people are to further the cause of the destruction of a race of people that happen to occupy Palestine?
k


Your guess is as good as mine ;)

Dan



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No. of Recommendations: 5
Frankly, I think those are done NOT by people with an agenda, but lunatics who just want an excuse to kill. Alot of these folks are taught at birth, that they will go to heaven for killing the enemy.

The problem is that because of the teachings by Palestinian and Arab world leaders that it is not only O.K., but actually required to kill Israelis, they are turning everyone into "lunatics." Palestinian TV and radio call out to the masses to kill kill kill. It's a sad story.

BTW, not only are they taught that they'll go to heaven for killing Israelis by suicide bombing, but that they'll also receive 70 virgins each- not a bad deal if you're a poor teenage boy. These statements made by the spiritual leaders of their people only adds to the violence, yet the Koran speaks nothing of these "rewards."

Lets say, Palestine GOT 100% of what they want, do you think for one minute the violence will stop? NO, it only takes one lunatic, and they are breeding tons of them. The age 14-24 male bracket, is going to grow at record levels in years to come in that region.

When the Palestinians had control of the religious sites in the area, Jews were not allowed to pray at many of their sites. Heck, they weren't even allowed access to most of them. Today, the Arabs are pretty much granted total freedom to all of their sites.

The world recently got a glimpse of the respect that the Palestinians have for the holy sites of the Jews. When the recent uprising began, an angry mob headed for Joseph's Tomb. After desperately trying to hold off the mob, the few soldiers protecting the site were forced to retreat. The mob made quick work of the site and turned it into a Mosque in less than a week.

This sounds cruel and heartless, and does not reflect my view of the general public in either country, but rather to the gov't of each side. I feel NO sadness if they go to war. I jope it is a long drawn out war, with heavy military casualties. Frankly, I think it would be good for the world. Just like the Iran-Iraq war, ask yourself the hard question, when BOTH those armies suffered casualties, DID the world gain, or loose?....We lost millions of lunatics. So be it.

Whoa! Easy there... think about something for a second: When was the last time that a Jew sacrificed his own life for his people by blowing himself up in a crowded shopping mall or outdoor market? The only comparable thing I can think of is when Boruch Goldstein went into a mosque in 1994 and starting shooting at unarmed Palestians- an act that was condemned by 99% of the worldwide Jewish population. Otherwise, it's pretty much been all Palestinian acts of terror. Have Palestinian school buses been shot at? I don't think so. Have their buses been bombed? I don't think so either. The Israeli responses to terror have been just that- RESPONSES.

It would be an absolute tragedy for millions of innocent people to lose their lives. Thankfully for the Israelis, the US is on their side and have given them the necessary funds to protect its citizens from such attacks by its neighboring countries.

Dan
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No. of Recommendations: 1
BTW, if this discussion is off-topic, please say so- I by bo means wish to intrude. I checked the FAQ before posting and it said that this board was for discussing worldly issues such as world politics...

Dan
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<<<BTW, if this discussion is off-topic, please say so- I by no means wish to intrude. I checked the FAQ before posting and it said that this board was for discussing worldly issues such as world politics...>>

Welcome, ND, on behalf of Ace, who brought us together here, but has ascended somewhere on high, for the time being, to tend to his Father's business. He may (or may not) return. The day and the hour we knoweth not.

The unofficial consensus here seems to be that nothing is off topic, so long as it is well-presented. And your posts certainly meet that qualification.

/s/ S.T.


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The unofficial consensus here seems to be that nothing is off topic, so long as it is well-presented. And your posts certainly meet that qualification.

I certainly second that emotion!

Thanks for the informative posts!

Jedi,

The Iran-Iraq war was a pretty strange situation for us here in the good old US of A. It seems we would help whichever side was losing at the time just so no one could win and consequently rule the area!

I guess it worked!

With this Isreli/Palestine thing, we're giving aid to the side that already has an incredible military and is fighting a bunch of rock throwers and suicide bombers. Not the same thing.

But, considering how we handled the Iran/Iraq thing, your assesment was pretty accurate. Both sides spent a lot of weapons, lives and money to end up right where they started. I think our strategy was nothing short of genius!

k

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No. of Recommendations: 0
Our tax dollars at work...

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15087582&post=true

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT
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No. of Recommendations: 4
Jedi-

I responded over at Political Asylum but would rather have the discussion over here, as it's easier to follow along.

How can you say that this is a waste of ou tax dollars? Hopefully, a new Palestinian leader will do a much better job in stopping the violence and negotiating with the Israelis. Yasser Arafat has done nothing at all during the past eight months to stop the violence nor has he effectively persuaded young children to stay out of the line of fire.

Sharon is in a tough situation right now. On one side, he's being pressured by the US and the rest of the world to keep to his cease-fire and wait for Arafat to declare one as well (I don't know what Arafat is waiting for). On the other side, he hears the cries of his people who are calling for better defense measures and retaliatory attacks against those who have struck Israel in the past week and a half. He loses either way, but as the leader of his people, he must make decisions that are best for THEM as opposed to the citizens of the rest of the world. If he went against his people (who elected him to provide security for them and their families) that would be a sad sad thing.

I haven't heard any confirmation from Sharon or anyone else from his Cabinet for that matter regarding this 48-hour operation, but it sounds like a good idea to me. This operation targets only the people responsible for not doing anything to stop the violence. That includes Yasser Arafat, the PA, Fatah, etc. and not Palestinian civillians. Hopefully, the PA won't encourage the Palestinian people that this is the ultimate Holy War and they must rise up and fight- that would be the worst possible thing that could happen. Instead, these people should prepare for a new leader with new policies designed to better the lives of his citizens and bring peace to the area.

Hopefully, Sharon will not let his people down.

Dan
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No. of Recommendations: 3
Dan...

Thanks for reading.

Actually, I never stated that it is a waste of our tax dollars.

The situation is, like I said, our tax dollars at work.

I have always had mixed feelings on this region. Personally, I would love to see the whole thing over. Whether one or BOTH sides are crushed would make no difference to me.

Bottom line is, we will NEVER, EVER, create peace in this region. Tehre are psychos on both sides who want to kill for the recreation of it.

Both sides have fought forever, and they will fight until the very end. In the meantime, we do 2 things:

*Appease terrorists. WHO built up Saddam Hussein? US. Who paid huge $$$ to Syria in the Gulf War? US. Guess what Assad did with our $$? He bought Chinese Scud C missles.

"Never cozy up to tyrants" *Winston Churchill*

*We continue to bow to the Israeli lobby in our Country. Now, before everyone jumps on me, I value our friendship with this country. I know they are our only TRUE friend in the Middle East.

All that is "sunshine and lollipop" happy stuff. The fact remains, that we give lots of money to this Country, and they keep building settlements. When they build settlements, we have to appease the terrorists again! It is what is known as a "circle jerk".

Again, I am not "anti israel". Everytime someone flirts with the notion, that we should get more for our $2billion bucks, they are accused of this.

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT

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"Katsav was speaking in Washington where he met his U.S. counterpart, George Bush. Israeli sources said Katsav submitted to Bush a request from Sharon for an additional $800 million in U.S. military aid pledged by the previous Clinton administration. (World Tribune as linked from Jedi's post)

================================

Yeah right! Clinton was great at giving our money away especially when it all but nailed a spot for his wife in the U.S. Senate, not to mention all those campaign contributions. Here we are trying to broker a "Peace Plan" on one hand and expected to grub steak Israel so that it can wage a war (48 hour Battle-Huh!)on the Palestinians.

I'm sure Israel's might is no match for the Palestinians as it is. Why should it be necessary for our ally to use this 48 hour knockout punch effort as reason for us to suddenly hand over 800 million of U.S. taxpayer money.

Thanks to Jedi for the link and thanks also to ntoriusdan for the well reasoned rebuttal that I respected very much. Forgive me, but at this point I need more convincing.

bs5

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Touchy feely moment with Jedi.
***********

No politics, no sarcasm.

I am just plain scared of this thing. I am fearful of the damn terrorist attacks we may face here at home.

I am fearful of these morons blowing up into war. I am scared of what the effect to our economy would be.

The stakes are very high on this one. It wont be just a bunch of idiots throwing rocks.

Israel could CRUSH the Palestians just for fun. Again...no politics. Please indulge me in this story:

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away...
************************************

Israel moved in, and brutally, systematically crushed the PLO. True, most of the efforts were on military and terrorist targets. Even so, some civilians were killed. CNN just showed video of a young Palestinian baby next to her Moms body. Time magazine...showed on the cover a young child killed by an Israeli bullet. Sounds brutal, but these are the pictures that get published.

World opinion, already moving in an anti-American/Israel direction, sway in sympathy to the Palestinians. Although the world stays out of the conflict, they disobey all sanctions we have on Iraq. They unfreeze dome of Bin Laden's terrorists money.

Finally, all Arab nations rally to their brothers' aid. In addition to sizable military support from Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, they freeze oil shipments to the USA, in retaliation for our support of Israel.

Our national interests now directly threatened, here comes the USA. This is not the 100 hour gulf war. God only knows what it takes to take on the whole Middle East. Geograhically, we are at disadvantage. No bases except in Israel.

As the USA moves to crush the Arabs, with the highest grade of weaponry, one of 2 things may happen:

1. We win...restore Israel, and go back to a lifetime of terrorist attacks.

2. God knows. Maybe Russia, OR China, wants to flex its muscles. WW3 ANYONE?

Lets not find out.

If I could have one, unrealistic wish, it would be this. For the USA to go in, and have a blunt talk to both:

*Mr Sharon, if the settlements do not stop, we will leave. We will stop writing checks. The Husseins of the world, will gas attack the hell out of your Country. Yes, you are strong, but you will fall when all of your neighbors attack you. Stop builing settlements, or witness annhilation of your Country.

*Mr Arafat, if the violence persists, we and or friends in Israel, will move in and put an end to civilization. We will use tactical nukes if needed. Your way of life as you know it, will be gone. Iraq, Syria, and Iran will become the 51st, 52nd, and 53rd states of America. This will be known as the Bush energy plan.
*****

Again, I am sorry for the rant. But the only way these idiots will stop, is if they are both faced with 100% defeat.

I know this will never happen, but id love to see the conversation take place.

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT
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Greetings...

In post #191, I was stating my fears about the future events in the Middle East.

One of my main concerns, both economically AND strageically, was our allies slowly turning against Israel, due to percieved or real "over agressiveness". My other fear is Arab nations uniting.

http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=398775&in_review_text_id=346059

Yes, these are only words. Please keep in mind, this is from our "ally", where we have military bases. It all starts with words, before escalating.

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT
www.votenader.org
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One of my main concerns, both economically AND strageically, was our allies slowly turning against Israel, due to percieved or real "over agressiveness". My other fear is Arab nations uniting.

Thanks for the article, Jedi!

The thing that stuck out at me:
"Abdullah said Palestinian attacks against Israelis were "a sign of desperation and frustration".

Hmmmm... suicide bombings deliberately targeting teenagers is OK because it's a "sign of desperation and frustration." That's just classic.

"The Israeli war machine takes aim daily at unarmed people who are at the most throwing stones."

Just stones... right....


"Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat could only stop his people's revolt if Israel ends the "cancerous growth of settlements in Palestinian areas."

I'm sorry, but does anyone here actually believe that:
A) The violence is now suddenly because of the growth of settlements?
B) That if Israel stopped building settlements, Arafat would be able to stop the revolt?

The answer is no to both questions. Once the settlement issue is resolved, it will be back to the East Jerusalem issue, and then to the Right of Return issue. Arafat will never be able to control his people. The guy won't even arrest the most wanted terrorists- does this sound like someone who is fighting for peace? I'm certainly not convinced...

Dan

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Rose garden ceremonies.

President Clinton, Bush, and Bush.

Arafat, Sharon, Peres, Shamir, Rabin, Netanyahu.

None of the above will ever stop it.

In the end, these folks have been fighting, and will continue to fight. As stated before, I do not have a dog in this fight. The only part that hurts me, are the innocents on both sides getting killed. As far as BOTH armies fighting and depleting themselves...that is not such a bad thing. Let them go at it. Both sides are to blame.

The fighting will stop ONLY on the day of world annhilation. Whether that comes by religious or military means, remains to be seen. Until then, the bombs will continue.

If anyone disagrees, please email me and lets place a bet...a big one.

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT
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In post #191, I was stating my fears about the future events in the Middle East.
--------------
Why are you afraid? My God has promised to keep me safe or give me the strength to endure. I trust Him completely.

We are told to pray for peace in Israel. I do.
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