No. of Recommendations: 11
First of all, please dont take this the wrong way. I have learned a great deal from reading thousands of post on this board and am very indebted to all that post here.

I have decided it is time for me to leave this board. After all the cost cutting measures and Frugal Tips, there is only so much I can take. I may occasionaly drop by, but I have decided there are a few better things I can do. Let me explain. After reading several great books recommended by Fools (millionare next door, instant millionaire, rich dad, poor dad, etc.) I have decided that too much of the LBYM mindset is not for me, that in fact, it is limiting my thinking. There is often too much emphasis on the best "deal" for this or that, or what do with "soap slivers", etc. While I have incorporated many of these ideas in my habits and plan, I dont want to be limiting myself. How many here on this board "work for money" as quoted from Rich Dad, Poor Dad? I would say the majority, myself included. I like the security of the paycheck/benefits/retirement plan- who wouldnt? But there is more out there for me. I know that I will have millions when I am old, simply becuase I have time to save that much. I intend however, to have millions much earlier, not because I need money to be happy, but because given the choice, I would choose to have my daily expenses be a miniscule fraction of my wealth, this way having freedom to choose my lifestyle and time expenditures. I intend, by the way, to not let my costs of living escalate proportionally with my income. So instead of this board, I will learn from other boards on TMF that also have great lessons/education which will help me improve my wealth-building skills: Tax Board (one of the best in my opinion), Retirement Early (nothing like learning from the Masters), Quicken (free lessons to improve your skills), Self Employed (People who work for themselves not others- think about that for a moment), etc. Yes it is true Im starting quite possibly at the bottom of the ladder, laden with debt and not much in the way of assets. But I have my intellect, desire, and determination- and with some initiation and resourcefulness, the freedom will be mine.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
Speedsurfer:

I have been in private practice since 1988 and I simply cannot imagine working for anyone else. I have no need of a retirement plan, because I am doing something (providing counseling and psychotherapy) that I never want to retire from. I am starting a second career as an Interior Designer/Cabinetmaker...because it is something else that I've always wanted to do.

Frankly, I cannot see spending extensive periods of time being a wage slave, so that I can "retire." Why not find something you love doing and make your money doing it?

This is not intended as a slam.

Most of us do not save "soap slivers," but we also don't waste our money. What is my definition of wasting money? Spending it on something you don't enjoy thoroughly. BTW, I thought "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" sucked. The books by Marsha Sinetar are much better, especially when coupled with common sense upbringing.

Don't lose heart...you WILL get out of debt...and you can have a happy, healthy lifestyle, however you choose to define that. :-)

Above all, enjoy yourself.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
speedsurfer,

I definitely hear you on this subject. I find I spend way too much time on various boards in Managing Your Finances. I'm way behind on many of those things I need to attend to day to day. I've also found that I am pretty much attuned to the LBYM lifestyle, anyway, and have been since I was a child. While I have picked up some useful information, much appreciated, much of what I see on these boards are things we have already incorporated into our daily lives.

I'm not ready to give it up yet, though. I have some useful information that I am happy to share with posters with questions, and I expect I will still be able to learn something new from time to time.

LBYM doesn't have to be about penny pinching, doing without those things you truly can afford, etc. What's the point of all that saving if you never get to that place in your life when you can finally say you can enjoy living in financial freedom?

It's about choices. And you're right, many of the boards here can be a great help for those who can go beyond LBTM, have the money to invest and enjoy life, making choices based on good advice and friendly encouragement.

Good luck to you.

jmbellv
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No. of Recommendations: 3
<<. I intend, by the way, to not let my costs of living escalate proportionally with my income. So instead of this board, I will learn from other boards on TMF that also have great lessons/education which will help me improve my wealth-building skills: Tax Board (one of the best in my opinion), Retirement Early (nothing like learning from the Masters), Quicken (free lessons to improve your skills), Self Employed (People who work for themselves not others- think about that for a moment), etc. Yes it is true Im starting quite possibly at the bottom of the ladder, laden with debt and not much in the way of assets. But I have my intellect, desire, and determination- and with some initiation and resourcefulness, the freedom will be mine. >>


If you keep your first sentence in mind, you've learned more at this board than most of the public ever learns. As for the rest, I wish you the best of good fortune. I think there are lots of opportunities to make a lot of bucks, and you are entitled to as much as you are able and care to earn.

Good luck!



Seattle Pioneer
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No. of Recommendations: 4
Hi Speedsurfer

I read your post with interest and decided to add a few of my own thoughts about this subject.

It seems to me, when the cost of your chosen lifestyle is exceeding your means then you have two ways to deal with the situation.

One way is to reduce your cost of living to fit your means, which is pretty much what I think this board is about. The other way, which appears to be the method you have decided upon is to increase your means to fit your chosen lifestyle. People cannot live above their means indefinitely as you eventually go broke.

I think most people would love to earn more money than they do but, achieving this is not always possible. I think for most people it is a safer option to live within their current means and, then look to improve things after they have increased their income.

I think your way too risky for a cautious fellow like myself but, I hope you succeed.

Regards

Jim
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No. of Recommendations: 5
First I'd like to congratulate you on going a little beyond the usual "I've had enough, I'm leaving" post that some feel the need to post prior to their departure.

Second I'd like to wish you luck in your future endeavors, more so if you forego reading that ridiculous heap of crap titled "Rich Dad, Poor Dad"

Third I'd like you to consider that what you see as excessive on this board is the expression of hundreds of people... if you read it in the context of one person posting it, or a few, I can see where you would think that this "LBYM Board Person" has no life ... but if you paid a little more attention you'd realize that the great majority of us do work towards increasing income and cut corners in areas that we don't care about while splurging in those that we do.

I guess I personally fit the "saving soap" thing... I dunno about others but in my particular case it's very simple... in my shower i have one of those scrubby things that have a drawstring... when you open the drawstring you can put a bar of soap in it and it both soaps you and scrubs you at the same time (it's great btw)... I started putting the soap from my sink in there when it became too thin to handle, not to save $0.02 on soap towards my retirement but because it didn't make sense to me to toss it out when it could finish it's "life" usefully in my shower.

I also don't have cable tv. Not because I can't afford it, but simply because I think that the 3 hours a day I do watch tv during primetime are WAY TOO MUCH already. The fact that doing this means I "save" (as in don't spend) $40 or so is just a nice fringe benefit.

I agree with you entirely on the Working for Yourself thing... I definitelly fit the stereotype of those who "work for money" ... I have no desire to do what I do for the rest of my life, and the reason I keep doing it is that it pays for what I want to do and it's conveniently located 2 blocks from home. The reason I haven't actively pursued going with another company that would pay me more is that while I wouldn't mind more money I'm already making enough to be comfortable (even without the LBYM tips) the problem isn't the money, it's the boring job.

Why I haven't started my own business yet? Frankly because I really don't know what I WANT to do.

Good luck!

Alessandro
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No. of Recommendations: 0
<<I think most people would love to earn more money than they do but, achieving this is not always possible. I think for most people it is a safer option to live within their current means and, then look to improve things after they have increased their income.>>

Ah yes, this is how I do it now and how millions do it, but I think there is a big difference in the few people who actually go and TRY to earn more, continually learning and expanding, and finding a way to make more. "The majority of men live lives of quiet desperation"
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No. of Recommendations: 2
BTW, I thought "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" sucked.

Didn't it just?
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No. of Recommendations: 0
"Rich Dad, Poor Dad" was so poorly written that it defied description...and, next to Wade Cook, the author should be boiled in his own fat!
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No. of Recommendations: 1
I think there are lots of opportunities to make a lot of bucks, and you are entitled to as much as you are able and care to earn.

what an evil Republican idea

: )
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No. of Recommendations: 5
Hello-
I have been reading posts on the LBYM board today with interest (in the past I have mostly been looking on the Credit Card and Paying For College boards). I am a college student with one more year to go before graduation, and for the past three years I have had a tough time and a lot of anxiety attacks having to do with money. My parents paid a portion of my expensive high school tuition (I was very depressed at my local high school and this school changed my life, but at a cost), and told me that they would have very little money to help with my college. They did help the first year, and then the second year I was alone, having to take out a private loan that is rapidly accruing interest. I developed an obsession with the money, clothes, etc. I wanted but didn't have. I am going to a private college which is also changing my life, and I want to stick it out next year. But I realize reading this post that I have attached money to happiness the past few years. I have been jealous of wealthier friends. I have felt angry at my parents for not giving me the money they don't have...And now I realize that it's time to stop. I don't have money now, but I will, and start investing Foolishly when I'm out of college. I will have enough for a comfortable life, retirement, and enough to help my family and friends when they are in need. I will spend money on things I enjoy thoroughly, NOT a big house for prestige or other superficial things. I will help out my parents who have struggled to help me, my sister and brother...take my dad on a trip to Asia, cause he's never been overseas (he's 58 now).

It's so funny. I came to this website to learn how to make MORE money and pinch more pennies, but much more than that has changed reading people's stories and encouragement. I think my attitude toward money is changing...

I have to make $7000 for next year, and pay $2000 more for this year, but now I feel that I can do it. I will probably be back asking about jobs, loans, credit cards, LBMM in Seattle this summer...but I feel much happier and less desperate now.

Thanks for reading my long, cheesy post. I'll be back!

dengdeng in Wisconsin (but from Seattle)
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No. of Recommendations: 1
I have decided that too much of the LBYM mindset is not for me, that in fact, it is limiting my thinking.

It is definitely possible to go overboard. This is one reason for the frequent reminders about what the first letter in LBYM stands for... this is why there's advice to NOT skimp on certain things, such as mattresses and toilet paper...

I think you'll find that almost every person here is on several other boards, and doing several other things. One LBYMer is going to the library because spending good money on books he'll read only once is a waste, while another is LBHM so that he can afford to buy the books he wants... obviously dead trees & ink occupy different places in these people's lives, and that is just fine.

If you think you've been spending too much time here, then take a break and attend to that first letter. You'll be back when the time is right for you.
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No. of Recommendations: 2
<<BTW, I thought "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" sucked. The books by Marsha Sinetar are
much better>> From Amazon- While I think that "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" was not the most well written, it certainly has some eye opening points for the masses. Here is a reader's opinion of Marsh Sinetar's work. I personally agree with doing what you love, but there is no shame in making good money doing it.
Logical Fallacy, May 20, 2001
Reviewer: rationalcoach (see more about me) from Phoenix, Az United States
"Do what you love and the money will follow". This is a statement of cause and effect. The cause is
loving your work and effect is money. The problem is that this statement is a *non sequitor*
(definition below). Money does not follow a love for your work. Money follows, at the most
fundamental level, the consumer demand for a product or service.

Loving your work is absolutely the proper motivation for choosing a career. And it will give you job
satisfaction, most likely enhance your overall happiness, increase your self-esteem and motivate you
to greater productivity.

However, it does not follow that doing what you love creates a consumer demand for what you do,
or will help you overcome the competition (and I assume the competitors also love what they are
doing! hummm, do you all make money?). Even if you are more productive, it won't generate dollars
if no one wants what you are producing. Supply and demand determines the flow of dollars. Love
doesn't.

I validated the above by (of course) looking at reality. A sample of what I considered:

The majority of small businesses fail within the first 5 years. (Statistics place this number at between
70% and 80%). Many of these businesses end in bankruptcy.

Most jobs that people love are very popular and very competitive.

I did detailed studies of free market economies and mixed economies - and the success factors.

I looked at people I know personally that had switched careers to do what they loved - and I
looked at their success rate. The majority are back at their old jobs, which they usually LIKED.

Many people have turned what they love to do into a hobby when realizing that they could NOT
make money doing what they love.

I'm certainly not saying don't try to do what you love. I am saying that there is not a fundamental
cause and effect relationship between doing what you love and earning money. The cause and effect
relationship is doing what you love and earning career satisfaction. And, the money MAY follow!

And of course, the author contridicts her own title within the book. But that she makes such a grave
logical fallacy in her title (not to mention the trite advice within) earns this book a one star rating.

*Webster's: non sequitor 1 : an inference that does not follow from the premises; specifically : a
fallacy resulting from a simple conversion of a universal affirmative proposition or from the
transposition of a condition and its consequent.
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No. of Recommendations: 22
Just a quick note from someone who has actually been self-employed for 20 years. Instead of having one "boss," you'll have (depending on your area of expertise) anywhere from a dozen or more folks/businesses to keep happy and who will be your "boss." And you have to supply your own benefits. No more paid vacations. No more health insurance. People who think being self-employed is about "freedom" are out of their minds. You are just as tied down as with a job. Probably more so because so many customers freak out when hearing you are going on vacation...! Most self-employed people are not millionaires either and never will be. They have less money, not more than the employed individual. That's why it's so hard to get approved for a loan when you're self-employed. Follow your dream, I did, but don't follow an illusion. Most people will accrue a lot more money by holding a job and investing, instead of running a business and having to either pay big health insurance bills or big doctor/hospital bills. Unless you really have something you want to do, more than anything else, I wouldn't recommend being self-employed. Most folks do go broke at it, you know, check the statistics.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
Again, I disagree.

Being self-employed is ALL about freedom! Freedom doesn't imply irresponsibility though.

I've never had any trouble getting approved for a loan...nor does any "going concern."

I think what you're trying to say is if you are self-employed, you are on your own...and nobody is going to help you. That is correct. That is why it is called being self-employed.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
>>>>>>> I wouldn't recommend being self-employed. Most folks do go broke at it, you know, check the statistics <<<<<<

I'm also self employed (going on 9 years) and I agree with you 100%. I was one of the few to survive. I would also like to add a few things: be prepared for nuclear winter, have a cash reserve of at least 6 months, study and know what you want to do, don't go into a business blind, and cut all expenses to the bone. You may never get rich working for some else, but can go broke working for yourself. Never lose sight of the one single fact of finance, REVENUE - EXPENSES = INCOME, most of the dot-com companies forgot this, now they are dot-gone.

Over all, I earn about 10% less working for myself than if I worked for someone else. After all is said and done though, I don't think I can ever go back and work a normal 9 to 5 job.

Best of Luck.
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No. of Recommendations: 4
<I've never had any trouble getting approved for a loan...nor does any "going concern.">


I've been self-employed for almost 20 years, making a higher-than-average profit for my industry almost the entire time, and I have most certainly run into difficulties in getting loans. Since I've heard the same from many, many other self-employed folks, I doubt I'm alone in this. When I bought my home, the real estate agent finally told us just to take my income off the loan application, even though my hubby was only working part-time at the time, because otherwise it was going to take forever to go through. And that's after I had already provided all kinds of Profit/Loss statements, copies of my 1040s, etc. Unfortunately, since the IRS doesn't reveal your income to these loan agencies, unscrupulous self-employed persons in the past have apparently supplied photocopies of their 1040s with the income magically changed, so it reflects back on everyone and leads to a general lack of trust in the self-employed. Another drawback I'm just reminded of...the IRS seems to believe that all self-employed people steal because of the actions of a few, and so you tend to have your taxes audited a lot. I was audited many years in a row until they gave up after never finding anything but sometimes I had to go around and around in circles for months to prove that I didn't owe certain taxes.

With all the hassles, I wouldn't go back to being employed either. But it is not because of some fantasy about "freedom." It's because I like what I am doing. This is the only reason to be self-employed, not because you think you'll get rich (most small businesses fail and often a personal bankruptcy as well as a business bankruptcy will follow, so the odds are against you) or because you think you won't have to work as hard (ha! if you are successful at times you are working day and night!!!). I have the impression that the person asking the question thinks being self-employed is the road to riches. This is generally untrue although of course there are exceptions. However, most folks I know who are self-employed have substantially less in assets than they would have if they had simply held a job.
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"the IRS seems to believe that all self-employed people steal "

Now if that isn't a great example of the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. Stealing from the IRS, lol!
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No. of Recommendations: 1
Actually, "freedom" can be defined in a multitude of ways. I became self-employed because I wanted to have the freedom to pursue working to my own standards, choose projects and clients who interest me, not have my job directly affected by politics, and lead a reasonably balanced life.

Self-employment has given me all of those things, but I think I'm happy being self-employed primarily because I went in with my eyes wide open and primarily to pursue happiness -- not riches, security, stability, or the "freedom" to have all the time in the world. You wouldn't believe how many of my job-employed friends sigh and say, "Gosh, it must be great to work for yourself -- all that free time," and who seem to think I'm raking in the big bucks. I try not to laugh, but it's hard sometimes.

Self-employment is difficult and often harrowing. On the other hand, I've never been happier. If you've got the right personality (optimistic, high tolerance for uncertainty, flexible, self-sufficient), self-employment can offer you more satisfaction than any traditional job can.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
Most folks do go broke at it, you know, check the statistics.

THE STATISTICS

End Game
Author: John Case (more by this author)
Source: Inc. magazine (details) - May 15, 2001


Small Business 2001
Death: The facts


Every year for the past several years, about 9% of companies with employees have shut down.
Of that 9%, virtually all were small companies. Then again, virtually all companies are small.
The percentage of companies closing their doors varies with the business cycle. In 1990, it was about 10.4%. The number for 2000 may be higher than the numbers for recent years.
Nobody really knows how many one-person businesses close up shop each year.
Among all the companies that close down, only about one in seven actually fails -- that is, goes out of business leaving behind unpaid debts.
The number of formal bankruptcies varies significantly from year to year. When times are good, it's less than 10% of business terminations. In 1990 it was 12%.
So most companies that go out of business don't go bankrupt and don't even leave unpaid debts. Some close up when the owner dies or retires. In many cases -- perhaps most -- the owner simply decides to do something else.
A rising failure rate is part and parcel of today's entrepreneurial economy. In the 30 years from 1950 to 1979 -- three decades of the old economy -- Dun & Bradstreet's index of business failures per 10,000 listed companies averaged 43. After 1979 it climbed sharply upward. From 1980 to 1997 it averaged 91.

Survival: The facts


Many start-ups come into existence and then disappear without ever being recorded by government agencies, Dun & Bradstreet, or other organizations. The proportion of those that fail -- that is, close and leave unpaid debts -- is unknown.
So the statistics of survival refer to companies that live at least long enough to be picked up by somebody's database.
What's more, survival means continuing to do business, not necessarily continuing under the same ownership. The founder or owner may decide to sell out -- but regardless of whether the sale means a profit or a loss for that owner, the business is considered to have survived.
Survival rates obviously depend on economic conditions and so will vary from one time period to the next. That's why researchers studying survival are careful to identify specific populations of companies and examine survival rates over a specific time frame.
A 10-year study by the SBA of companies founded in 1976 revealed that about one-quarter disappeared within two years and one-half didn't make it past four years. By 1986, only one-fifth of the companies were still in business under their own names.
Another SBA study -- this one of companies founded between 1989 and 1992 -- found that about two-thirds of the businesses remained open for at least two years, about half survived for at least four years, and about two-fifths stayed above water for at least six years.
Figures compiled by research company Cognetics for the period of 1995 to 1999 show that about two-thirds of the companies that were founded in 1994 survived until 1999.
If a company establishes itself well enough to create a few jobs, its chances of success are much higher than if it has no employees. Even in the early SBA study, which found the lowest rates of survival among new companies, far fewer companies that had created jobs went out of business in any given time period than those that had not created jobs.

http://www.inc.com/articles/details/0,3532,CID22622_REG3,00.html
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