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I am going into business school and will probably need ~120k (not all at once 60k/yr) total for it and here are my options:

1. borrow from parents - they can put home equity or something and can borrow that much at fixed 2.7% - i could pay them off and maybe take a life insurance on myself incase something happens?

2. direct grad plus is available at 7.9 fixed

3. private loans - i have great credit so i think i will get the lower rates so maybe this makes sense over direct grad plus?

choice 1 obviously saves the most money. i did a rough calculation and i save about 37k or so from choice 1 to choice 2 in a 10 yr payment plan. Now the problem for 1 is of course my parents starting to pay the loan back right away so they have 1k+ payment which they are able to pay but i kinda feel bad.. then again 37k is a lot of money saved.... private loan seems too unstable but should i apply and see what happens? thanks
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You asked this same question a week or so ago. At that time it was suggested that option #1 is a terrible option, and as a responsible adult you shouldn't even consider it.

Private loans - you need specifics. Get hard info and then compare loan terms to option #2 (not just interest rate, but repayment structure). You are going to business school - that should be an easy exercise for you to do.
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No. of Recommendations: 25
Option 1 is a big fat NO. A life insurance policy would only do them any good if you are DEAD. What about if you are seriously injured and disabled for life? What if you go bankrupt? What if something happens and your parents need that equity in their house for themselves???

If you're mature enough to go to school and draw out $120k in student loans, you're mature enough to figure out a way to pay for it your d- self. Whether that means taking loans, delaying school, working while in school, or picking a less expensive program is up to you.

Lara Amber
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No. of Recommendations: 7
I am going into business school and will probably need ~120k (not all at once 60k/yr) total for it and here are my options:

Again - Option 4. Defer going to business school until you actually have money to pay for it.

However, given the fact that you have recently been living above your means, since you had credit card debt (I guess you decimated your Roth to pay that?), I suspect that you won't find that option appealing.

choice 1 obviously saves the most money. i did a rough calculation and i save about 37k or so from choice 1 to choice 2 in a 10 yr payment plan. Now the problem for 1 is of course my parents starting to pay the loan back right away so they have 1k+ payment which they are able to pay but i kinda feel bad.. then again 37k is a lot of money saved....

<sarcasm> Sure, go ahead and sponge off your parents. It will just eat into any inheritance you might have gotten. Plus, it will further reinforce your tendency to live above your means. So what if you feel bad? Your parents are willing to enable you - you should take advantage of it.</sarcasm>

private loan seems too unstable but should i apply and see what happens?

7.9% fixed loan vs. an 'unstable' (i.e. variable rate) loan. Hmmm....is there a cap on the variable rate loan? You're going to business school - go look at the historical rates for the index that your private loan would be based on. Then figure out how much extra interest it will cost you if the rates go up to the cap, or if there is no cap, up to the highest average rate for any single year. Then look at your economic forecasts and see what you think the rates are going to do over the next 12 years while you are debt accrual and debt payback modes.

AJ
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Option 1 is a big fat NO. A life insurance policy would only do them any good if you are DEAD. What about if you are seriously injured and disabled for life? What if you go bankrupt? What if something happens and your parents need that equity in their house for themselves???

If you're mature enough to go to school and draw out $120k in student loans, you're mature enough to figure out a way to pay for it your d- self. Whether that means taking loans, delaying school, working while in school, or picking a less expensive program is up to you.

Lara Amber


The OP got similar advice the last time they posed this question...

http://boards.fool.com/need-advice-on-paying-off-cc-debt-292...

-Steph
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No. of Recommendations: 37
It was bad enough when you suggested your parents' mortgaging their house to pay your $13k credit card debt. Now you want them to mortgage their house to pay a $120k loan for you to go to business school.

As a parent myself I think this is outrageous. It shows no care or concern for your parents' well being. Yes, yes, I guess you are young and invincible so you are positive you can eventually pay the whole debt.

But, you know, stuff happens. People can't find jobs, they lose jobs, they get jobs that don't pay enough to pay of $120k in loans, they get hurt or disabled, and so on.

You are rolling the dice with your parents' home. It would be one thing if your parents were wealthy and had $120k sitting around and chose to pay for your graduate school. That would be there choice. But the fact they have to mortgage their house to do this implies they don't have the money sitting around unneeded.

If you are old enough to go to graduate school you are old enough to pay for it and not put your parents at risk. If you don't want to pay the cost of borrowing for your loans you need to really consider if this $120k program is worth it. What other options exist? A less expensive school? Working and perhaps ultimately finding an employer to pay for graduate school? Saving some part or all of the money to go to graduate school? Have you really looked at whether the financial benefit of this school at this cost is really worth $120k in debt? Often it really isn't worth it.
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thanks for the input and your sarcasm is understandable. I am not for borrowing from parents - they and my sister brought it up since it will save me a lot of interest and say it would be foolish for me to not take it to just be "independent". For the cap on interest rates... one loaner had a 25% max apr cap because it was state cap. Salli mae doesnt seem to have a cap and it is dependent on LIBOR avg. + 2% and historically :
http://www.wsjprimerate.us/libor/libor_rates_history.htm

the rate hasnt been too bad - if we return to 2007 it is still < 7.9. of course there's no IBR from private loan i am looking at and there's no forgivance either..

And for living above one's means... the only "bad" choice that led to my prviously threaded CC debt was the master degree i got - originally i planned to have my company pay for it. However, there wasn't much work coming in for a long period of time and people were just "sitting" there. I didn't want to waste my time there at a standstill just to get some reimbursement for school so i left the company for better work and more professional growth - which basically meant i had to pay for all the grad tuition.
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You've already got a graduate degree and now are going to business school?

Why?

Ishtar
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i want to change careers. I think it is quite common for MBAers to have multiple degrees nowadays...
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I didn't want to waste my time there at a standstill just to get some reimbursement for school so i left the company for better work and more professional growth - which basically meant i had to pay for all the grad tuition.

If you're working now at a job, why the need to go to business school full-time? Why not at least try starting it part time - especially if you've already stopped one master's program. Most areas have decent business schools with a part-time program, and experience + a degree usually trumps degree-only.
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If you are not for asking your parents to mortgage the house, then there was no need even to bring it up - which you have done now not once but twice.

I remember many years ago applying for a PT student job through the financial aid program at my grad school, and being completely shocked when the financial aid officer suggested that I didn't need a job because I get my parents to get a loan against their (paid off) house. Even at the financially-naive age of 21 (and boy was I naive!), I just stared at her in horror and said, "my parents aren't mortgaging their house so I can go to school - All I want is a small part-time job!"

I didn't discuss it with my friends, or a message board, much less my parents. It was a no-go right from the start. Would my parents have done it? Sure, probably. But I could not in the remotest corner of my imagination imagine asking them to do so.
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I am not for borrowing from parents - they and my sister brought it up since it will save me a lot of interest and say it would be foolish for me to not take it to just be "independent".

Then if you aren't 'for borrowing from parents' - why are you even bringing it up as a possibility, and calculating the 'savings' in comparison to taking your own loans out? The fact that it will save you $37k doesn't negate the fact that you said it will cost your parents $24k over the next 2 years while you are in school. Worse yet, you are borrowing money that they are having to borrow - they apparently don't have it available to lend it to you themselves. So, as already pointed out, if something happens to you, they are stuck with paying the loan back anyway. And if something happens to them, so that they cannot make the payments during the next two years, they risk losing their house.

Salli mae doesnt seem to have a cap and it is dependent on LIBOR avg. + 2% and historically :
http://www.wsjprimerate.us/libor/libor_rates_history.htm

the rate hasnt been too bad - if we return to 2007 it is still < 7.9


Since the LIBOR rates only go back to 1989, you are not seeing the historically high rates. Go check the prime rate from 1979 - 1981. A 25% cap would probably be welcomed if rates hit that. But hey, you're the one going to business school - what is your forecast for rates given the fiscal mess our country has put itself in?

And for living above one's means... the only "bad" choice that led to my prviously threaded CC debt was the master degree i got - originally i planned to have my company pay for it. However, there wasn't much work coming in for a long period of time and people were just "sitting" there. I didn't want to waste my time there at a standstill just to get some reimbursement for school so i left the company for better work and more professional growth - which basically meant i had to pay for all the grad tuition.

Okay, so you already had to borrow once for a grad degree that you originally had planned to have someone else pay for. Do you enjoy repeating your financial mistakes?

And if you already have 1 grad degree, what is an additional high-priced degree really going to buy you?

AJ
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i couldnt agree with you more about that BUT there's no decent schools around the vicinity of where i am at (mostly community colleges...) that i can do the PT/PT thing. Plus the company i am working for only shell out 10k max to support... I did finish my master degree but i was just saying i didn't get the reimbursement because of me switching jobs (typically jobs have a 2 year period post reimbursement). I did try to apply to schools near my parent's home and my sister's but didn't get in. I am 29 now and mba average is ~28 and i spent quite a bit ~10k on the whole process that i dont think i feel like doing it again...
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What career?

Ishtar
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He said in his previous thread that the program he's doing encourages people to not work while doing it.

But yeah, there are plenty of business schools that are part-time.

However, considering that he quit a job that would have paid for his grad school because "people were just sitting around" (sounds like the perfect job to use for school to me). . . . well, I'll stop there because I'm going to get really angry.


Ishtar
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i want to change careers. I think it is quite common for MBAers to have multiple degrees nowadays...

So, you've already made two degree choices that didn't get you to the career that you now think you want to have. Given your record, do you really think that an MBA will get you to a career that you will enjoy enough to stick with?

Carry on - you aren't going to listen to any of the advice here any way. I hope you will at least be willing to provide your parents a comfortable retirement, even if you have to sacrifice some, since they are willing to sacrifice for you.

AJ
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<sarcasm font> Oh, boy, you're so old. It will be totally impossible for you to wait any longer for an MBA.</sarcasm font>

Ishtar
(41, single parent, working, running a business and in grad school)
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I am 29 now and mba average is 28

Who the heck cares? I promise you right now, no HR director in this country goes "wow, this schmuck waited until he was 32 to get an MBA, his resume is going right into the shredder".

Unless you have a clear plan on what you will be doing with this degree, you are wasting your money. Money you don't even have yet. Your MBA plans can just sit on the shelf a few years until you a. have no other debts, b. have an emergency fund saved up, c. have a clear idea what to do with the degree, and d. have a good plan for paying for it.

By the way, you should have NEVER counted on your company paying for school. The smart, business savvy person (that you want to be after getting an MBA) would have paid for the classes out of his/her own pocket, then if the reimbursement came through, cool. If it didn't, well you were still okay. Employer reimbursement is a benefit, and like all benefits, can be changed at any time at the discretion of the employer. At no point should you have depended on that money, your "can I afford this analysis" should have depended entirely on your own means.

Lara Amber
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<sarcasm font> Oh, boy, you're so old. It will be totally impossible for you to wait any longer for an MBA.</sarcasm font>

Ishtar
(41, single parent, working, running a business and in grad school)


Yep, using his logic, I should have never had my first child at 33, since the average is just north of 25. I'm a freak, I tell you, a freak!

Lara Amber
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By the way, you should have NEVER counted on your company paying for school. The smart, business savvy person (that you want to be after getting an MBA) would have paid for the classes out of his/her own pocket, then if the reimbursement came through, cool. If it didn't, well you were still okay.

See, I'm thinking that if he didn't QUIT the job, he could have gotten it paid for.

Another poster (haven't seen her on this board in a while, but she's a regular on some boards) hates her job and company. She used their reimbursement program to improve her skills.

Afterward, she was blocked from actually using her new skills at the company.

She is staying with the company until the agreed upon time after getting the reimbursement so she doesn't have to pay them back.

I'm certain that she'll jump ship immediately afterward. But she used the company to get what she wanted, and she's maintaining her commitment to them before jumping ship.

Ishtar
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i want to change careers.

Notice the bolded word. "Want" is not "need". "Want" should be saved for, not borrowed for.

AJ
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yeah i was angry too that's why i left because i didn't want to get paid that way and not advance.. As for the age thing - there are always exceptions (like your case) otherwise the median age would be much higher. Plus the "older" folks are opting for executive MBAs instead of normal MBA.

As for "making another mistake" with a degree... there are quite a lot of people taking MBA to switch careers - from teachers to investment bankers and construction workers to consultants. How many of us are "set" on what we want to do when we were going into UG?

@ Lara Amber
I do have a decent goal in mind going into B school but things could change depending on opportunities though - many people going in dont have a "definite" plan yet till after the 1st month with company presentations/clubs etc. I agree about the benefits - i shouldn't have tried to rely on it.

I guess i shouldnt have mentioned the parents help thing but i just tossed in there in case some people asked "any other options to pay?" and it made it look like i am endorsing the option..

As for waiting a few more years.. My goal is actually getting the MBA first then settle down with family since it involves a lot of moving etc. Plus i don't know if i will be able to get into the same school i got in now with the competitive nature nowadays it is uncertain what criteria will increase and if i have to retake GMAT etc.. Also, for PT MBA i have to literally get a job in the vicinity AND hope i can get into the school.
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She is staying with the company until the agreed upon time after getting the reimbursement so she doesn't have to pay them back.

If she's in an area that doesn't have high unemployment, she could network now, and if a company wants her let them know they'd have to pay her current company for the amount of school tuition they paid on her behalf.

Some companies will go for it if they want you bad enough - back when I was in grad school one of my classmates did this (he was in the program part time).
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I do have a decent goal in mind going into B school but things could change depending on opportunities though - many people going in dont have a "definite" plan yet till after the 1st month with company presentations/clubs etc.

Keep in mind, once you take on $120K worth of debt, your options start closing in on your with that much debt to pay off - that's at least a $1,000/month student loan payment.
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No. of Recommendations: 39
I think that the borrowing from parents idea has been well covered, so I'll only add that I would skip the MBA Grad program and I'd rather suggest that you go take a writing course. I'd think that by this point in your education you would have a better grasp of proper communication, grammar, syntax, capitalization. I understand that a MBA might have an assistant who can proofread, but that is really a skill you should have youself.

Best,
Linda
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I am 29 now and mba average is ~28 and i spent quite a bit ~10k on the whole process that i dont think i feel like doing it again...

You're an adult - grow the hell up already.

You're never going to find a prefect dream job where you're happy all the time and making money hand over fist. Learn to deal with it. Your job isn't your life. Get a hobby. Find something to do besides whining. Help the less fortunate. There are people who would be grateful for any job and you come off like a whiny spoiled brat.
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As for "making another mistake" with a degree... there are quite a lot of people taking MBA to switch careers - from teachers to investment bankers and construction workers to consultants. How many of us are "set" on what we want to do when we were going into UG?

Doesn't prevent you from saving up at least SOME of your own money to put toward your new degree, instead of borrowing. And changing careers doesn't have to involve a new degree.

Plus i don't know if i will be able to get into the same school i got in now with the competitive nature nowadays it is uncertain what criteria will increase and if i have to retake GMAT etc..

Have you asked if you can defer your enrollment for a year?

AJ
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originally i planned to have my company pay for it. However, there wasn't much work coming in for a long period of time and people were just "sitting" there. I didn't want to waste my time there at a standstill just to get some reimbursement for school so i left the company for better work and more professional growth - which basically meant i had to pay for all the grad tuition.

So this was your choice, yes?
To forego a year or two of "professional growth" in exchange for Grad School Tuition?

You recognize now that it was not a great decision.
I think there is a lack realization that among your choices is the choice to NOT take a loan and the choice to NOT to go to school, again.

However, the other thing to consider, is that maybe you just chose board the wrong on which to post this.

There is a *grownup Fools back in school* board - no posts lately, but i bet it wouldn't take much to stimulate some activity
http://boards.fool.com/grown-up-fools-back-in-school-115462....

peace & grown ups
t
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By the way, you seem to fall back on "most people" to justify decisions. So far you've brought up the median age for MBAs, that many people have multiple degrees, that most people don't know what they want to do yet when they get to business school, etc.

Do you want to be "most people" or do you want to do what's best for you? Most people don't eat enough fiber, and most people aren't saving adequately for retirement, and most people don't have wills. Let's face it, "most people" are idiots.

I'm glad you have a goal. Want to share it? Because right now for all we know your goal is "get an MBA and wait for the perfect job to magically fall in my lap".

By the way I know people who just finished getting their MBAs in the last few years, they paid way less then what you are quoting and continued to work the entire time. These were decent well respected schools as well. Have you looked into the online option? Quite a few quality schools now offer online MBA programs since they realize that there is a big market for the working student.

Lara Amber
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yeah i was angry too that's why i left because i didn't want to get paid that way and not advance

She's not angry about that. She's angry that they are not allowing her to use the new skills she acquired. But she's sticking it out because she agreed to it. That's what grown-ups do.

As for the age thing - there are always exceptions (like your case) otherwise the median age would be much higher

I have no idea what that means (like in my case).

People go to school at all ages for all different things. I just got my BA at age 40. I was by no means the oldest student in many of my classes.

Why does the "median age" count for anything?

As for "making another mistake" with a degree

You've got a Bachelor's and a Master's (which you haven't finished paying for) and you haven't really worked in that field.

Spending money you don't have for a degree you don't use is. . .um.. . . well, what would you suggest to someone that did that?

there are quite a lot of people taking MBA to switch careers - from teachers to investment bankers and construction workers to consultants.

You're 29, and you just got your Master's; what career?

A lot of people don't end up working in what their undergrad degree is in, but they also don't keep racking up debt for more degrees.

I guess i shouldnt have mentioned the parents help thing but i just tossed in there in case some people asked "any other options to pay?"

If that were really the case, why did you list the parent's loan first? Listing it that way really makes it seem like that is the path you want to follow.

My goal is actually getting the MBA first then settle down with family since it involves a lot of moving etc.

Getting the MBA requires a lot moving? Or settling down with a family requires a lot of moving? I don't understand this sentence.

Plus i don't know if i will be able to get into the same school i got in now with the competitive nature nowadays it is uncertain what criteria will increase and if i have to retake GMAT etc

Ah, I see, you want a pedigree degree, which is why you can't work and you have to have the $120k price tag.

BTW, does that $120k price tag count living expenses for the next two years?

Also, for PT MBA i have to literally get a job in the vicinity AND hope i can get into the school.

A lot of schools now have online programs, yes, even for MBAs. But maybe not the pedigree you want.

Ishtar
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If you're set on going to this particular grad school, I wouldn't even consider the parent's mortgage route (too risky and they need any equity in their home far more than you and don't have the time you do to bounce back from any financial mistakes). I'd forgo the private student loans because you're at the mercy of those companies if the interest rates increase (and I don't know if one can get consolidation loans on private student loans). I'd go for federal student loans, even if they're currently at a higher interest rate. Part of the healthcare reform act also creates big changes to federal student loans - like I think there's going to be a repayment option where if someone can't pay their loans back within 20 years (assuming that's income-based) any remainder after 20 years is forgiven. Not sure if the student loan aspects kick in around 2014 or if they've already kicked in, you might want to do some research on that.
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I'd go for federal student loans, even if they're currently at a higher interest rate.

It's possible that he may not be eligible. If he took Stafford loans for his Master's, he may have reached the grad cap on loans.

Ishtar
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You can't move up the corporate ladder with a Patek Philipppe watch. I'm sure that will require another loan after getting the MBA.
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yeah i was angry too that's why i left because i didn't want to get paid that way and not advance..

Umm . . . you didn't like the corporate reimbursement policy, so you took action that ensured you couldn't get reimbursed, having already incurred the reimbursable expense?

News flash: Very few corporations will pay for school in advance. The ones with good policies will reimburse upon receiving proof of successful completion of the approved courses, with varying definitions of "successful."

Learning to work smoothly with corporate policies that aren't as nice as you would prefer is a vital skill. Until you develop it, no amount of education is going create a good career for you in corporate America. The people who do best in the corporate environment are the ones who can deal with stupid policies and stupid people who have tall titles, and still accomplish something worthwhile.

My recommendation would be to evaluate what kind of job/income you can get with the degrees you already have, then get the best you can and work on paying off existing debt. BWDIK? Everyone I know who got an MBA, did so in order to get paid more by their existing employer for doing the same thing they did before getting the MBA.

Patzer
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Yep, using his logic, I should have never had my first child at 33, since the average is just north of 25. I'm a freak, I tell you, a freak!

Ha! We could have only DREAMED of having a child when my wife was 33....

-synchronicity, even if I'd have known her then I was too busy working 29 hours/day down mill....
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1. borrow from parents - they can put home equity or something and can borrow that much at fixed 2.7%

Ummmmm...You'd better have your parents check the terms of the loan they are being offered. I highly doubt that they are being offered a home equity loan at a fixed 2.7% rate for at least the 12 years you will be in school and paying back the loan.

The only home equity loans being offered near 2.7% right now are variable rate HELOCs, usually tied to prime or LIBOR, and usually with no rate cap.

According to bankrate.com, the average fixed rate home equity loan is going for 6.03% right now, compared to 4.59% for a 30 year mortgage. And many fixed rate home equity loans have the 'feature' of being amortized over 30 years, but having a balloon payment after 15 years. Depending on the interest rate, after 15 years of paying at the 30 year amortized payment, the borrowers will then have to come up with a lump sum to pay back about 70% of the original balance - this is usually done through a refinance, but sometimes borrowers are forced to sell their homes, or lose them to foreclosure if they don't have the money to pay the lump sum.

AJ
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It's possible that he may not be eligible. If he took Stafford loans for his Master's, he may have reached the grad cap on loans.

Unless they massively reduced the cap, I doubt he's at the cap since he's only mentioned $10K in student loans.
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She's not angry about that. She's angry that they are not allowing her to use the new skills she acquired. But she's sticking it out because she agreed to it. That's what grown-ups do.

She also recognizes that two years out of an entire career is not a lot, especially if she stays on top of her skills on her own time. ;-)

The OP sounds like an education addict: anything but a real job will do. A degree isn't the key to The Perfect Life; The Perfect Life is what you build when you weather all the events that disrupt your plans.

Fear of reality is the wrong reason to go back to school.

-lizmonster
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However, considering that he quit a job that would have paid for his grad school because "people were just sitting around" (sounds like the perfect job to use for school to me). . . . well, I'll stop there because I'm going to get really angry.

Don't get angry Ish, just laugh like I am right now. It's so absurd it's comic. Unemployment is what, 9% right now? When unemployment goes up, companies usually cut expenses and when they cut jobs (an expense) they usually cut the higher paying mid-level jobs, like people with 2 MBAs.

Either this person is making this up or he/she will be unsuccessful and unhappy most if not all of his/her life. To be fair, part of that is probably the fault of all those people who say that a college degree is mandatory if you want a decent life and an MBA or Phd will let you earn huge amounts of money cuz you are smart!

I almost never post here because of people like the OP. If he/she is really 29 years old then there's no realistic hope for them to change. The best that I can hope for someone like that is that they find someone (parents, government, whoever) to allow them to stay in school all of their adult lives so they don't become a drain on society.

Calabogie
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Frankly as someone who might be termed an "education addict" myself - BS and 2 grad degrees, plus multiple other classes along the way - I do not think that's the issue. Education is not a waste in and of itself. Anyone can realize that what they've done isn't working and that they want other education to change their path.

BUT

The issue here is that this individual cannot pay for this and doesn't understand how to structure his life to make this affordable and workable within his life.
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Education is not a waste in and of itself.

Yeah, that came out glib, and I didn't mean it that way. I went back to school myself, so I understand that sometimes it's the best (or only) way to change a path that isn't working for you.

It just seems to me that OP hasn't held a real job for much of his life, and is retreating into an MBA to improve his working life without a strong sense of what he really wants to do with it. I may be off-base...but school is sometimes a familiar place to hide, especially when it's where you've spent the vast majority of your life so far.

But you're right - it's the debt that's the issue.
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yeah i was angry too that's why i left because i didn't want to get paid that way and not advance.. As for the age thing - there are always exceptions (like your case) otherwise the median age would be much higher. Plus the "older" folks are opting for executive MBAs instead of normal MBA.

I don't know of any corporation that pays college educational expenses in advance. Successful completion is required and the corporation has the right to set the terms for successful.

Only tuition for specific non-college work related training is normally paid directly by the corporation.

I was angry/frustrated that my job changed significantly, but my employer wasn't providing any training. Overall, staying and making a successful transition was best for me. I spent around $5K taking courses to succeed at the new definition of my job.

If you plan to work for large corporations, you need to deal with your anger. Policies aren't going to change because you are upset. Noone is irreplaceable, especially with the current unemployment rate. A degree does not guarantee the ability to obtain the job you believe you deserve.
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The OP sounds like an education addict...


We call them professional students.

Characterized mainly by the mistaken belief that someone will overpay them based on an accumulation of certificates.

By the way it might work for the first job, it generally doesn't work after that. Get a job and accomplish something. Right now all you're accomplishing is the potential bankrupting of your parents.
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Get a job and accomplish something.

Uh-oh! I knew I forgot something.
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ok to answer some comments:

1. about "professional student" - i did my masters part time online while working full time for ~2.5 years. I have ~5 years of working ft experience in tech industry.

2. About "i was angry" comment - i was referring to sitting still at my previous job not that they didnt reimburse. Also, the job was contracted so basically if the contract runs out you stop working and then you get paid from a reserve pool from main company. It is kinda weird but that's the way it is.

3. To get the most out of MBA FT is very important - the student interactions, projects, company visits and 100% career center help. PT and evenings dont have access to all those tools. Most students come in to get MBA to switch careers - whether industry, function or both. Some do get MBA just so they can climb the corporate ladder faster.

4. school selection is important too - better professors, curriculum, network and company selection. There are schools some companies visit and actively recruit while other schools they dont even bother.
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And yet, many people do get MBAs outside of a full-time program and outside the pedigree degree. In fact, I'd suggest that MORE people do it that way. I wonder if they find any value in it?

There's a poster here who has two law degrees.

He did not get them at Harvard or any other school names you'd likely recognize.

And yet, he's extremely happy with a job he recently landed.

Just sayin'

A whole 5 years working experience at age 29? Man, you're cooking.


Ishtar
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I submit that you're not looking at all the data. You seem to have completely bought all the positives of going through an MBA program, but you haven't looked at any negatives.

http://www.degree.net/resources/degree-level/mba-degree-guid...

In 1965, fewer than 10,000 MBAs were granted to U.S. students. In 1977, the number rose to 48,000 and in 1998, it was 94,000. Even more interesting, some two thirds of these degrees are awarded not to full-time students, but to part-time or distance students, often subsidized by their employers. These are people looking to advance their careers, to move to a more rewarding career or even to start their own businesses. According to a survey conducted by the Graduate Management Admission Council, about 20 percent of the people who get MBAs are planning to go into business for themselves. Many MBA degree holders are older, and about 30 percent of business school graduates have families. In distance-learning programs, that ratio jumps even higher; a distance-learning MBA allows students to study at their own pace, without interrupting work or family life.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Business_Administrati...

The Financial crisis of 2007–2010 has raised new challenges and questions regarding the MBA degree. Graduates of MBA programs have a reported tendency to go into Finance shortly after receiving the degree.[19] As the field of Finance is tightly linked to the global economic downturn, anecdotal evidence suggests new graduates are stepping onto alternate paths.[20]


http://www.swaphandmedowns.com/MBA-Pros-Cons.html

MBAs are best for individuals with at least a few years of relevant work experience, so if you have been working in marketing for more than three or four years, you are a good candidate for an MBA. You will have enough background information to perform optimally. Many undergraduates continue on with MBA program directly out of college. That’s probably not the best idea, simply because you don’t have the work experience to really apply what you learn in class.
<snip>

Cons of an MBA

* It’s expensive
* Many people feel that they can learn on the job instead of in the classroom.
* It’s not necessary to have an MBA in order to work in management.



http://whichmba.wordpress.com/2008/01/07/ask-the-expert-why-...

the MBA is somewhat unusual among postgraduate qualifications in generally demanding that students already have some experience in the area it professes to teach (management and business).


It would seem to me in that case that many MBA programs are used to people who are working.


http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_12/b3976089....


Is The MBA Overrated?
Our surprising research suggests that few execs who hit the very top have the degree



BusinessWeek research has found that fewer than one out of three executives who reach those lofty heights do so with the help of an MBA. And if you think a sheepskin from a top school is a necessity, think again. Only half of the executives with MBAs went to the top 10 schools in the 2004 BusinessWeek ranking.


Only 146 of the 500 executives reported having MBAs, a surprising number considering the hundreds of thousands of B-school alumni with enough experience to qualify them for top jobs. What's more, only 71 received MBAs from the top 10 B-schools, and two-thirds of those executives have degrees from just three institutions: Harvard Business School, Stanford University's Graduate School of Business, and the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School.

Considering the hordes of living alumni from each of the top 10 schools, the number of grads who ended up in the stratosphere of pay seems remarkably small. Only about one out of every 4,000 alumni of top 10 MBA programs were among the highest-paid executives in 2004
(Written in 2006, BEFORE the financial crisis)



http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2007/05/mba_...

Business school might improve your quantitative, presentation, and communication skills. It might even get you thinking about ethics and strategy. But two years of case studies aren’t going to turn you into a leader if you weren’t born one. There’s no learning charisma, persuasiveness, elegance, or gut instinct.

If you’re going to B-school to acquire a network, you’re not taking advantage of the one already in front of you—alumni from your undergraduate institution, professional organizations, your current and past colleagues, and all sorts of Internet communities. These folks already have relationships with people who can help you advance, whereas you’ll have to wait for fellow MBA students to graduate, get back in the game, and help themselves first.

In fact, only 20% of 133 top international executives said that an MBA prepares people to deal with the real-life challenges that a manager must face, according to a recently released report from executive search firm Egon Zehnder International.

And those who usually enter top MBA programs already have high salaries and exceptional skill levels. If you want to get ahead, you can do so without an MBA. Who wants to pull himself out of circulation for two years and take on hefty loans to go to university a second time?
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2. About "i was angry" comment - i was referring to sitting still at my previous job not that they didnt reimburse. Also, the job was contracted so basically if the contract runs out you stop working and then you get paid from a reserve pool from main company. It is kinda weird but that's the way it is.

It is not that uncommon of arrangement for companies that keep personel for contract work.
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it is actually 6 now but 5ish when i started the whole process. Is 6 years too few from coming out of undergrad though? it is 6 years FT - i dont count any part times/internships before or during college as work experience..

And yeah i know the pros and cons of MBA vs continued working and i do agree it wont do too much good if one continues the exact career but I am not planning to. It is true some schools emphasize on a lot of case studies but others have a more even split. There's also mandatory international trips, company visits, coop with company to help them on real life cases etc. to gain experience. By no means those "hands on" experiences can replace 2 years of working experience but it could be experiences that those 2 years wont neccessarily provide (like presenting case to executives etc.).


Also picking MBA is a lot like law school - the more prestigious the better because of networking, curriculum, comapny visits etc.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-gradu...

has some interesting salary and employment stats. The trend is the lower ranked the school is the higher the mean salary - there's quite a drop off after the first 20s or so. There are highs like someone working IB at BOA/morgan stanley or consulting at Mckinsey/Bain/Booz etc. Does getting into those schools mean one will be making that much guaranteed? Of course not but it puts one in a much better position than others - like in undergrad where school names, prestige,career counseling and company visits etc. are very important.

Is MBA a gamble? Sure since who knows what happens in 2 years for the job market (although MBA jobs trending up from years before) - there's also no guarantee of anything if one sticks to current job for 2 years wont be fired from downsizing. Yes there's the no "120k debt" argument. There's a reason why a lot of people are applying to MBAs and the GPA/GMAT scores rising higher and higher despite all the cons.
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3. To get the most out of MBA FT is very important - the student interactions, projects, company visits and 100% career center help. PT and evenings dont have access to all those tools. Most students come in to get MBA to switch careers - whether industry, function or both. Some do get MBA just so they can climb the corporate ladder faster.

I couldn't disagree more.

I went full-time for my master's in management (a couple years out of undergrad) - at the time the school had a 1 1/2 year full-time program but the majority of students were part-time.

I learned at least as much, if not more, from my fellow classmates who were working full-time compared to the course work and instructors specifically because these part-time students had so much more work experience than most of the full-time students and more "real world work experience" than the professors. It's great to learn theory, but it puts a whole different angle on things if you have classmates who can tell you real-world-cases of what goes wrong in large scale projects.

As I said in my prior post, make sure you know what kind of work/field you want to go into before taking on $120K worth of student loan debt, and make sure the career path is likely to enable you to pay off those loans. If you're looking to stay in the tech industry but want a more business-related job, IMO you'd be better off going p/t. If you're looking to completely switch into something like finance, than full-time might be the better option. The only person I personally know who paid off $100K worth of student loans quickly was a guy I knew who worked in investment banking, he was able to pay off his loans with his bonus, but was working 16+ hour days for a over a year and then got laid off back around 2003 when the dot bombs were exploding.
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Also picking MBA is a lot like law school - the more prestigious the better because of networking, curriculum, comapny visits etc.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-gradu......

has some interesting salary and employment stats. The trend is the lower ranked the school is the higher the mean salary - there's quite a drop off after the first 20s or so.



I think you're focusing on the wrong criteria. Being fair to middlin' at a top school isn't really worth very much. Employers - or at least good employers - look for business success and a proven ability to actually get things done and post results.

The last three jobs I hired (all in the past three months) were taken by candidates with college degrees: one was a BS, the other two held BAs. All three of those candidates won those jobs over dozens of MBA candidates.
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I used to do a lot of business strategy and financial planning as a director at a F'500 company. I have no MBA nor did most of my peers. It helped get you on the Finance track to have one, but it wasn't really critical in the end.

Not so say it's not a worthwhile thing to have - just that I truly don't see it as critical in any way to getting a good job in business consulting or finance. It's one path - a good one but an expensive one. You get to the same place in the end I think. It may take a bit longer without the MBA, but there's no debt when you do so.
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employers - look for business success and a proven ability to actually get things done and post results.



crap



peace & posting while on the clock
t
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There's a reason why a lot of people are applying to MBAs




Interesting:

The two-year boom in business school applications that accompanied the deteriorating economy appears to be over, with 12 top U.S. MBA programs now reporting that 2010 applications are flat or down compared with 2009,


http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/content/aug2010/bs20100...


Just sayin'

Ishtar
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i actually asked couple of admission folks about that during interviews and they said although the number for top schools are flattening but that doesn't mean the overall desire for MBA is down or flatted out. The programs are rigorous and the planning stage, test taking, info gathering, school visit, interviews, info sessions adds up a lot - especially the dreaded GMAT exam which most people takes 2-3 months to prepare and perhaps even more time to retake especially for higher ranked schools where the mean GMATs are like 85%+ (680/800 note the percentile dont translate exactly as quotient) With that said it takes a lot of headstart to do so and there are schools that has looser requirements and one could conceivably have a much easier time to do so.

i agree MBA is not "required" for career switchers but companies hire a lot of new MBA career switchers than non-MBA. For example, it would be very very difficult to convince an IBank to hire a construction worker who never done finance and for him to justify why while the same person who went through an MBA and got a job after getting an MBA. Ibanks hire MBA grads as associates basically a level above fresh out of UG financial analyst - there will be training etc. and the dreaded 70-80hr weeks but most of those who comes out of that 2-3 years of "bootcamp" the opportunities are endless. Plus an office job like corporate finance is pretty decent pay 90ish mean as well.
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Also picking MBA is a lot like law school - the more prestigious the better because of networking, curriculum, comapny visits etc.

B.S. I have a 'pedigree' degree. I went to one of the top schools listed, although it was significantly less expensive then. The initial ability to get a high paying job is probably a little easier than if it's not one of the top schools. However, by the time I was out 5 years, the network of who I knew from my work experience was much more important in my career moves than my network from school. Sure, I have some of the people from my grad school as LinkedIn connections, but I have a lot more work connections.

Yes there's the no "120k debt" argument.

Taking on a debt the size of a mortgage to get a degree is going to have significant implications in your future ability to commit to other obligations, like being able to support a family, buy a home, buy a car, etc.

You don't seem to be acknowledging that the commitments you are making now are going to affect your future just as much as the extra income that you expect to get from your new career.

If you consider the extra cost of living in the place where I got my first job after grad school, the salary boost paid for my student loans and the higher cost of living, but no standard of living increase. And I only took out loans for about half of my school/living costs. I still kept the same vehicle I had from before and decreased the size of my living space compared to what I previously had. If you want to add a wedding and kids to your 'after school' life, that's a lot of expense, too. So that salary boost probably isn't going to go nearly as far as you think it might.

AJ
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it would be very very difficult to convince an IBank to hire a construction worker who never done finance and for him to justify why while the same person who went through an MBA and got a job after getting an MBA.
But faced with the choice between hiring a newly minted MBA and someone like me who was director of construction for a major publicly-traded company and has managed large-dollar-value portfolios, they would probably hire me over the new MBA.

Just sayin' - and MBA doesn't mean you can do the work or have the skills (yet). It gets you in the door, it means you have an understanding of financial systems, but it won't replace actual management experience.
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employers - look for business success and a proven ability to actually get things done and post results.

----------------------------------
crap

peace & posting while on the clock


I wonder if an employer would consider my green star an accomplishment.
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i agree experience does come into play as one goes further down the career but i am talking about career shifting here. Getting into a top school is important in opening up a lot of doors and getting interviews etc. It is a fact that not all schools are treated equal by recruiters and that shows by recruiter statistics from each school. Sure after you leave the school for a few years experience plays a bigger role but the school name still tags along and could help a bit.

i do understand the financial burden that will occur but it is a career and life changing degree.
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Plus the "older" folks are opting for executive MBAs instead of normal MBA.

OMG. Where are you getting your stats from?

As for "making another mistake" with a degree... there are quite a lot of people taking MBA to switch careers - from teachers to investment bankers and construction workers to consultants. How many of us are "set" on what we want to do when we were going into UG?

See, I think you're missing something here. Yes, a lot of people get MBAs, and yes, a lot of people switch careers, however, most of them don't go back to school to get yet another degree, they simply change the focus career-wise with the degree they already have. Or in the case of the construction worker to consultant, they get their first graduate level degree.

As for waiting a few more years.. My goal is actually getting the MBA first then settle down with family since it involves a lot of moving etc. Plus i don't know if i will be able to get into the same school i got in now with the competitive nature nowadays it is uncertain what criteria will increase and if i have to retake GMAT etc.. Also, for PT MBA i have to literally get a job in the vicinity AND hope i can get into the school.

Is there a reason, now that you already have one MBA, that you aren't looking at schools that offer online MBAs? I know for a fact that a lot of well-known brick and mortar schools offer online degrees to students so they can continue to work while attending school. Look into one of those and the geographic issues can go away.

My curiousity is really kinda killin' me now: what school are you trying to get into?

LWW
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i do understand the financial burden that will occur

I don't think you really do. And you won't until you are stuck with the student loan payment that is more than your rent. And because of that payment, you can't buy a house. And need to think hard about if you can afford a kid.

but it is a career and life changing degree.

No, it's not really 'life changing'. It opens a few doors. But the same basic person is going to step through the doors, and perform the work afterwards.

Opening the doors might be a bit harder if you didn't have that particular degree. But it wouldn't be impossible.

AJ
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i actually asked couple of admission folks about that during interviews and they said although the number for top schools are flattening but that doesn't mean the overall desire for MBA is down or flatted out.

You do realize that the "admissions folks" are paid to talk up the programs at their schools, right? I looked into a school a couple of semesters back and the "admissions folks" called me several times a week for several weeks before I finally had to just ask them to stop calling because I had decided to hold off on reentering college at this point.

The programs are rigorous and the planning stage, test taking, info gathering, school visit, interviews, info sessions adds up a lot - especially the dreaded GMAT exam which most people takes 2-3 months to prepare and perhaps even more time to retake especially for higher ranked schools where the mean GMATs are like 85%+ (680/800 note the percentile dont translate exactly as quotient)

Don't ever tell my DH that it takes 2-3 months to study for the "dreaded GMAT exam". He aced it the first time and didn't even decide to take it until the last possible chance before he graduated with his undergrad degree. Honestly, you either know the material or you don't. You've obviously taken it before, so what's the big deal?


With that said it takes a lot of headstart to do so and there are schools that has looser requirements and one could conceivably have a much easier time to do so.

What does this sentence even mean? The grammar leaves much to be desired. I'm guessing that whatever you decide to pursue with your next MBA, it won't be writing intensive.

LWW
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It strikes me that lioil is willing to buy anything said by the admissions people, rather like the guys who buy everything the military recruiter says, without even considering they have a HUGE BIAS. The experience of people older then him, who already have MBAs, and frequently make the hiring decisions, seem to matter nothing to him.

Of course the admissions people are going to tell you that their prestigious school will open more doors then one that costs half as much, they want you to spend money there! Their job is on the line.

Lara Amber
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Oh bullcrap.

I have a six-figure job and I don't have ANY degree. None. No little letters trailing behind my name. I have a certificate of completion in commercial food production. I'm 42 years old and on my fifth "career" (culinary/human resources/social services/IT/business analysis & project management).

I'm married to a man who has had a great career path in manufacturing (he can do anything from mold making to optimizing the program for a CNC machine). He hasn't quite hit six figures yet, but he's getting there. He doesn't have anything beyond a high school diploma, the smarts he was born with and a honest work ethic.

You don't NEED another degree. You certainly don't need your parents to bankroll it with their home equity. Get off your duff and earn your degree if you want it.

t.
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I can understand the desire to switch careers, I really, really do. And I understand that it may be necessary (depending on career switch) or helpful to get a specific degree to fuel a career switch. So I don't really have an issue with you getting an MBA if you are sure that is what you want to do. What I'm cautioning against is going $120k into debt to do it. Yes, yes, yes I get it. The program you are going to is prestigious and you think it will open more doors. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. But it comes at a high, high cost and you could get that MBA far cheaper and without having to quit working.

And, yes, I know what I am talking about. I am an attorney by education and career. After I had been practicing law about 12 years I decided to switch careers. In fact, I decided to switch to a career that requires a particular degree for licensing purposes. So I went back to college as a post-grad to get the necessary coursework done so I could go to the graduate program. I then I went to graduate school and got that master's degree and got my license in the new field...

However, I didn't go into debt to do it (to the rest of the board this was well before the debt that brought me here). I went to the local state university at night both to get the pre-graduate school coursework done and then to do the master's program over 4 years at night. Would it have been nice to go to a more prestigious program and done all this work in 3 years instead of 6? Sure. But I couldn't justify quitting my paying job to doing it and I didn't want to go into debt to do it. So I kept working and paid as I went.

And I'm sure glad I did. When I started the process I was single. By the time I finished I was married with a child and wanted more children. I ended up deciding to stick with my existing career rather than take the financial risk of the new career. I could freely make that choice since I had not gone into any debt to get there and I hadn't burned bridges with my existing career.

When you are trying to change careers it generally behooves you to be financially cautious in doing it and to recognize that getting an MBA from a school you can attend part time or online and which is less expensive will get you 90% of what you want at far less cost and risk to you.
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So - cutting to the chase of this long thread:

- you know all the negatives of the path you have chosen, but feel these will not have much impact on you. You have looked at the worst case scenario for this path and feel you can weather it no matter what happens. That seems wildly optimistic to me, but whatever.

- #1 is a terrible and infantile option that only someone who wanted to destroy his relationship with his parents would consider. It assumes nothing will go wrong ever over the course of the loan, and that your parents will never need their home's equity for other purposes. It also neglects the fact that even if all goes well, your finances, your career choices, and your personal decisions will be subject to a degree of scrutiny that they would not had you no debt to your parents.

- #2 introduces a high degree of risk due to variable interest rate and unknown loan terms.

- #3 is the best bet. Assuming you are going to do this MBA and don't mind acquiring the kind of debt it involves, that is what you should do. That kind of debt will compromise your other choices in life, but that's the way it is.

SO: #3, #3, #3.
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- #1 is a terrible and infantile option that only someone who wanted to destroy his relationship with his parents would consider. It assumes nothing will go wrong ever over the course of the loan, and that your parents will never need their home's equity for other purposes. It also neglects the fact that even if all goes well, your finances, your career choices, and your personal decisions will be subject to a degree of scrutiny that they would not had you no debt to your parents.

This bears repeating.

- #2 introduces a high degree of risk due to variable interest rate and unknown loan terms.

- #3 is the best bet. Assuming you are going to do this MBA and don't mind acquiring the kind of debt it involves, that is what you should do. That kind of debt will compromise your other choices in life, but that's the way it is.

SO: #3, #3, #3.


Actually, #2 was the fixed rate option and #3 was the variable rate private loan.

SO: #2, #2, #2

AJ
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Actually, #2 was the fixed rate option and #3 was the variable rate private loan.

SO: #2, #2, #2

AJ

WHOOPS!

Yes, #2, #2, #2 - the fixed rate option. And please god,, no third thread about this exact same topic.
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And please god,, no third thread about this exact same topic.

Well, the OP does seem to be a glutton for punishment.

Actually, I'm expecting a thread in 4 years: "I have student loans for $120k, and I just bought a new car, and I have $xx,xxx in credit card debt, from paying for my wedding and now we are having a baby, and we want one of us to be able to stay at home. How can we do that?"

AJ
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I'm expecting a thread in 4 years: "I have student loans for $120k,

I'd increase that one a little bit. School often costs more than you think. And I know that the local state college has been raising costs 20-30% a year for the last several years.

Ishtar
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i do understand the financial burden that will occur but it is a career and life changing degree.


That's pretty funny. Getting an MBA doesn't make you a manager, or anything else really, except indebted. Here, I suggest you buy and read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Management-Myth-Debunking-Business-Phi...

It costs $11.24.

whafa, just saved you $119988.76.
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But faced with the choice between hiring a newly minted MBA and someone like me who was director of construction for a major publicly-traded company and has managed large-dollar-value portfolios, they would probably hire me over the new MBA.

Vouch.
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i do understand the financial burden that will occur but it is a career and life changing degree.


Then figure out how to pay for it yourself.

Believe me, the types of jobs you're pining for will require you to solve much bigger problems in a lot less time.
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Oh bullcrap.

I have a six-figure job and.....



You left out the parts about how you rich bastards ruined the economy, don't pay any taxes and exist solely to screw all the little people out of all of their savings.

And global warming, I'm sure that's your fault too...
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I'd increase that one a little bit. School often costs more than you think. And I know that the local state college has been raising costs 20-30% a year for the last several years.

Yeah, and I also forgot "My spouse has $150k in student loans, too."

AJ
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Lioil, two words DELAYED GRATIFICATION! My DH is 40 (mumble, mumble) years old and just finished his Master's in Accounting. He didn't get his Bachelor's until he was about 32 because he grew up poor and got his education on the GI bill. I will admit that he received his Master's for free as he got free tuition for being a War-time Disabled Veteran, so yeah it did "Cost Him", in that aspect, at least.

Consider joining the Air Force or the Navy and getting your degree in that fashion.

Also, my perception is that you don't know what you want in life, which is okay, sometimes I still wonder what I want to be when I grow up. However, throwing money at an intangible, nebulous, undefined goal is a recipe for a disastrous future! Think in Time Value of Money terms, if nothing else. What will you have to give up in the future, to get this MBA? What will an MBA get you that your current education and experience and future experience get you?

I'm going to tell you a secret.....there is NO SUCH THING as a FREE LUNCH! You will have to give up something in order to accomplish this goal. It's not your Parents' responsibility. Where is your self-respect even thinking of asking them to mortgage their house for you an ADDITIONAL degree above the ones you already have?

You can get it without going that much into debt if you look outside of the box and make sacrifices. Just decide exactly what you want to give up/pay in order to receive the benefits that this MBA will give.

BTW, my hubby has been able to make a fantastic living w/out the Master's, he just wants to diversify and make himself more marketable; but he didn't HAVE to get the MBA to do so. Mayhaps you can do likewise, just brainstorming different options.

Folks here want you to succeed; but not in a fashion that hurts anyone, including yourself financially! This is a wonderful place to get folks to help you think of other options, even if we sometimes unintentionally stop on toes in doing so!

Regards
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We call them professional students.

Characterized mainly by the mistaken belief that someone will overpay them based on an accumulation of certificates.


I'm RIGHT HERE, ya know!

-synchronicity
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especially the dreaded GMAT exam which most people takes 2-3 months to prepare and perhaps even more time to retake especially for higher ranked schools where the mean GMATs are like 85%+ (680/800 note the percentile dont translate exactly as quotient)

Dude, if it takes you over 3 months of study to try to get over the 85th %ile on the GMAT, you'll get eaten alive in those "prestigious" MBA programs you wanna get into.

Not to mention what'll happen afterwards when you get out into the real world and are competing with people who actually have cr@ploads of drive and desire.

-synchronicity, betting lots of posters who have already responded to you scored well above the "85th %ile" on whatever standardized tests they took with about 3 hours (or less) of study
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I have a six-figure job and.....

You left out the parts about how you rich bastards ruined the economy, don't pay any taxes and exist solely to screw all the little people out of all of their savings.


Does it count if two of those six figures are after the decimal point?

-synchronicity, asking for a friend
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You left out the parts about how you rich bastards ruined the economy, don't pay any taxes and exist solely to screw all the little people out of all of their savings.

It's not like it's a lot of money.

And global warming, I'm sure that's your fault too...

Schred does fart a lot.
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Yeah, but you can do spreadsheets n stuff.
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Does it count if two of those six figures are after the decimal point?

Oh ... crap.

t.
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I'm RIGHT HERE, ya know!


This is what I'm saying!
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It's not like it's a lot of money.


Oh yeah...I think I recall reading that on the internet somewhere, now that I think about it, I think it maybe it was LBYM...



Schred does fart a lot.

LOL!
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<< I'm RIGHT HERE, ya know! >>

This is what I'm saying!

HA! Well, the joke's on you, because I DID get someone to overpay for all those credentials, and...

it might work for the first job, it generally doesn't work after that. Get a job and accomplish something.

Cr@p.

-synchronicity
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Also picking MBA is a lot like law school - the more prestigious the better because of networking, curriculum, comapny visits etc.

And for yet another data point (not that it will make any difference, because the OP obviously is dazzled by having gotten into a 'name school' and is willing to mortgage their career potential), many of those 'name school' lawyers aren't doing so well, either:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/At-WellPaying-Law-Firms-a-nyti...

For decades, firms used essentially the same model: charging increasingly higher rates for relatively routine work done by junior associates, whose entry-level salaries in major markets have now been bid up to $160,000 (plus bonus, of course), a sum reported by the big law schools. Even under pressure to reduce rates, firms are reluctant to lower starting salaries unilaterally for fear of losing the best talent — and their reputations.

“Everyone acknowledges that $160,000 is too much, but they don’t want to back down because that signals they’re just a midmarket firm,” said Mr. Henderson. “It’s a big game of chicken.”

So now firms are copying some manufacturers — which have similarly inflexible pay because of union contracts — by creating a separate class of lower-paid workers.

At law firms, these positions are generally called “career associates” or “permanent associates.” They pay about $50,000 to $65,000, according to Michael D. Bell, a managing principal at Fronterion, which advises law firms on outsourcing.

These nonglamorous jobs are going to nonglamorous cities.
.
.
.
Lower salaries make it even more difficult for newly minted lawyers to pay off their law school debt — like the $150,000 in loans that David Perry accumulated upon graduation from Northwestern University School of Law in 2009.

Mr. Perry, 37, became a career associate at Orrick after unsuccessfully seeking public service work (which would offer the option of loan forgiveness).


Just for point of reference - At 7.9%, a $150k student debt on a 30 year repayment plan is a $1090 per month - significantly more than the mortgage would cost on a median priced home would cost in Wheeling, WV, where he is employed. ($99,500 according to Zillow http://www.zillow.com/local-info/WV-Wheeling-home-value/r_14... )

AJ
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well most people aiming for 700 (90%+). Just saying the avg 85% doesnt mean it is good - it is really what people should at least get. You should really take one then decide if one can just "wing it" or not prep efficiently for it to get a decent 90%+ score. Yea there are geniuses getting 99% first try and those without prepping but most do prep to get a decent score.
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well most people aiming for 700 (90%+). Just saying the avg 85% doesnt mean it is good - it is really what people should at least get. You should really take one then decide if one can just "wing it" or not prep efficiently for it to get a decent 90%+ score. Yea there are geniuses getting 99% first try and those without prepping but most do prep to get a decent score.

FYI: Your correspondent scored above the 95th percentile on his LSATs.

Ishtar
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Lioil,

You've already at least once in this thread displayed some doubt that you would be accepted by this school again if you delayed a few years and you've also mentioned needing a lot of prep time for a test (that in reality, one's schooling should prepare you for adequately so one only might need a few practice tests or refreshers before passing with a high score). What happens if you start attending and get poor grades? If you get overwhelmed with the course work? Will you feel stressed that you have $120,000 in debt and you're in the bottom half of your class, so recruiters won't talk to you?

You might be much better off going to a different school. If you go part time, you can set your own pace. So if you know a particular course will be difficult for you, you can ONLY take that course that quarter and really concentrate on it. If you do rock the grades, you might be able to get financial aid. If you attend school in the same area where you intend to work, you will also network with more people who are actively employed at companies in the area you intend to work, instead of being well connected with fellow unemployed freshly minted MBAs who are competing for the same jobs as you!

I will reiterate that you need to brush up on your writing skills. All of your posts are riddled with grammar mistakes, run on sentences, and lack clarity. This will hold you back, both in the classroom setting and in the business world.

Lara Amber
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lara,
I have doubts about getting into the school again because there's no guarantee about getting into any of these schools unless one is overwhelmingly qualified to get in. It is true MBA courses will be chanllenging but it doesn't mean it will be easier if i go elsewhere though. Many folks who go into MBA also are mostly in the same boat as I - "out of school for few years" so I would be admitting defeat before I even try if I think I can't do it almost on even playing ground (finance guys do get an edge from the start).

And for those who suggested option 2 - I think I will go for that. My dad is still very adamant about loaning me money and is making a big deal about me being idiot not saving from the 30kish interest. I will try to convince him not to loan - any suggestions to counter him? He doesn't seem to care about the financial burden on him.
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ok, my parents came up with this plan:

have me borrow as normal, when i finish school they pay everything off without mortgaging the house etc. Then I pay them off on a monthly basis. When I get a job I could buy higher premium disability/life insurance so that would cover the "what if XYZ happen" and i can't pay them back....
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You're almost 30, so I'm assuming parents are somewhere between 50 and 65 or so?

I truly appreciate the offer dad, but. . .

"It's time for me to be a grown up"

"I don't want to put your retirement in jeopardy"

"What's mom gonna do if you're hit by a bus and she has no equity in the house?" (statistically men die younger than women)

"I need to stand on my own two feet."

"you may need the equity if either of you gets sick."

"If I can't handle it on my own, I promise, I'll ask you for help, but please let me try to do this."

Ishtar
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ok, my parents came up with this plan:

have me borrow as normal, when i finish school they pay everything off without mortgaging the house etc. Then I pay them off on a monthly basis. When I get a job I could buy higher premium disability/life insurance so that would cover the "what if XYZ happen" and i can't pay them back....
====================================

No one knows the financial status of your parents. For all I know the $120K for them might be me lending my kid $2K or someone else lending theirs $2.00.

Jean
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I will try to convince him not to loan

Is he going to glue the money to your hand or something? You don't need to convince him of anything YOU ARE A FREAKING ADULT ALL YOU HAVE TO SAY IS "NO THANK YOU".

Lara Amber
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have me borrow as normal, when i finish school they pay everything off without mortgaging the house etc.

How are they going to pay off your loan without borrowing from the house, if they were going to have to borrow from the house to get you the money now?

If they are planning on tapping retirement accounts, this would be an even worse idea than borrowing from the house. Their retirement funds are for their retirement, not to pay for your schooling. There could be significant tax implications from taking this much money out of retirement accounts at once, too, even if there aren't any penalties.

If you don't ever tell your parents where to send the money to pay off the loans, and you tear up any checks that they give you for loan payoff, it's going to be hard for them to give you the money, isn't it?

Look, you are the one making the decision to commit your future earnings to your current education by borrowing the money you don't have. As you said in your first thread, you need to 'man-up' and live up to that obligation.

The fact that it will cost you an extra $30k is based on the decisions that you are making about not being willing to wait, nor are you willing to consider other options, like part-time or another institution. Those decisions have consequences. An adult would face those consequences by living up to their commitments and not having their parents step in to take care of them. Whether you want to be an adult or not is up to you.

AJ
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have me borrow as normal, when i finish school they pay everything off without mortgaging the house etc. Then I pay them off on a monthly basis. When I get a job I could buy higher premium disability/life insurance so that would cover the "what if XYZ happen" and i can't pay them back....
I simply cannot believe you would voluntarily choose to owe money to your parents. I don't agree with everything Dave Ramsey says, but he has a great phrase..."Thanksgiving dinner tastes different when you owe money to your in-laws/parents/uncle/fill-in-the-family-member-here."

I reiterate that this is an absolutely terrible plan, and you or your parents will regret it deeply down the road. You need to learn to say no.
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Yeah i tried saying that but basically the response was "so you are willing to owe 30kish extra just so you can have pride for being an adult"? I have other friends whose parents actively lend money out.

As for the money - after I graduate my parents will have that available without tapping into savings/401k/mortgagin house etc. Maybe this is a cultural thing as well since i am from asian family and I know a lot of parents help out like loaning 90k to son for condoes etc.
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I think my biggest problem with taking money from parents is that when you owe someone money, they have a big influence over what you do. They can control you.

My cultural background would completely resist that.

If you are comfortable with your parents having that much control over you, there's nothing anyone can say or do against that.

Ishtar
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I have come to the conclusion this thread is performance art, as it is too ridiculous to be believed. I am done with it.
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Yeah i tried saying that but basically the response was "so you are willing to owe 30kish extra just so you can have pride for being an adult"? I have other friends whose parents actively lend money out.

Yes. It's called being an adult and paying what it costs to make your own decisions. Tell them to save their money and spend it on you when you are out of school, married and expecting their first grandchild.

There is a world of difference between giving/loaning an adult offspring money for a condo and taking out a loan for money for education. If things turn south with the condo, you can sell it and maybe get the investment back, or rent it out and at least something back monthly. If it's for education, then what happens if you don't get the job of your dreams? It's not like they can repossess your head.

As for the money - after I graduate my parents will have that available without tapping into savings/401k/mortgagin house etc. Maybe this is a cultural thing as well since i am from asian family and I know a lot of parents help out like loaning 90k to son for condoes etc.

I find it hard to imagine that your parents are in a position that they will suddenly have access to that much money in 24-36 months if they can't get it now without mortgaging their home. It sounds like your parents don't really want to let their child grow up and be a man. And you seem perfectly happy to allow them to continue to think that way.

LWW
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If it's for education, then what happens if you don't get the job of your dreams? It's not like they can repossess your head.

You just made me choke on a strawberry.

Lara Amber
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Yeah i tried saying that but basically the response was "so you are willing to owe 30kish extra just so you can have pride for being an adult"?

My dear boy, this one is easy.

"Yes, I am."

I have other friends whose parents actively lend money out.

Look, if your friends jumped off a cliff would you - oh, never mind.
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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/At-WellPaying-Law-Firms-a-nyti...

Darnit, I was going to post that same link!

-synchronicity
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getting an MBA from a school you can attend part time or online and which is less expensive will get you 90% of what you want at far less cost and risk to you.

Exactly. You can?t afford to pay for pedigree, is the bottom line here. If you do it you will always be patting yourself on the back for getting into that school but you will be paying for it too.

You've already at least once in this thread displayed some doubt that you would be accepted by this school again if you delayed a few years

Which kind of sounds like those admission folks doing the old real estate ?buy it today or tomorrow it might be gone!? Most of the schools aren?t going away.
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And for those who suggested option 2 - I think I will go for that. My dad is still very adamant about loaning me money and is making a big deal about me being idiot not saving from the 30kish interest. I will try to convince him not to loan - any suggestions to counter him? He doesn't seem to care about the financial burden on him.

Refuse to cash the check. </obvious>

Trying to blame your *dad* on pressuring you to let him mortgage your house is patently ridiculous.

Truthfully, my biggest concern about you at this point isn't the 120K in debt. It is your lack of good judgement and maturity. You want what you want, and don't care about the consequences. You are convinced that the dozens of people who are counseling you on this - many of which have more successful careers and are in better financial shape than you can imagine - don't have a clue what they are talking about.

You could graduate #1 in your class from the most prestigious MBA school in the country and I would not be inclined to hire you because of these factors.

d
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You should really take one then decide if one can just "wing it" or not prep efficiently for it to get a decent 90%+ score. Yea there are geniuses getting 99% first try

Yeah, and a disproprtionate number of those "geniuses" are going to be your competition. Now, granted, many of them are immature dolts sponging off their parents so they can stay in school for a while longer, but...well, they're immature dolts sponging off their parents so they can stay in school for a while longer who can break 99th %ile on standardized tests with their only "preparation" being eating Spaghetti-O's with Sliced Franks cold straight out of the can.*

The folks lowering those medians are disproportionately the ones who don't-done-test-no-good but have done things like successfully run departments or divisions of businesses for several years and are being groomed for higher management and were accepted in spite of "lower" test scores because of their considerable professional accomplishments.

So, you may want to consider who you'll be competing with.

Also, have you actually BEEN accepted at any of these "prestigious" programs yet (it sounds like you have, but I'm unclear now), or is this dependent on how you do on the GMAT (I'm assuming you've taken the GMAT in order to get accepted at a school, so how much prep would you need to retake it down the road?)

-synchronicity

*- and Pop-Tarts straight out of the box.
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Ok, just read the part about your parents having the money in 2-3 years. If so, and they are truly willing to plunk down 120k on your education, then wait 2-3 years. Work, save, get in a better position. School will still be there in 2-3 years. Honest.
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well i have been accepted into couple top 20 schools, not sure if they are "prestigious" or not since there are different opinions about them - some thinks only top 5 are. I think they are decent.

I get the gist of what most experts are saying here - basically:
1. continue current career path or slowly branch out
2. dont be dependent on parents/ be more independent
3. have money first to pay for school and do it PT later

There does seem to be a very large group against MBA here - is it mainly because of the debt? For example, would anyone's opinion about it change if I had gone into this without incurring much debt? Or do most still think the best way to go is PT MBA?
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*- and Pop-Tarts straight out of the box.

Is there any other way?

PSU
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There does seem to be a very large group against MBA here - is it mainly because of the debt? For example, would anyone's opinion about it change if I had gone into this without incurring much debt? Or do most still think the best way to go is PT MBA?

I don't think that people are against getting an MBA - they are against:

1) Taking on a mortgage-sized debt in order to get said education
2) Counting on said education to move your career enough to make it a worthwhile investment compared to cost of the mortgage-sized debt

Coming here with a question of "how do I borrow to do this?" is always going to get a lot of questioning on "why do you want to do that?" and suggestions of "here are other options to accomplish your goal so that you don't have to borrow."

I will say, if the way that you were going to accomplish not borrowing was for your parents to pay for your education, at the age of 29, you still would have gotten a lot of pushback.

AJ
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If you were going to pay cash from your own savings and had enough money to take 2 years off to go full time and support yourself and not get into debt then I have no real problem with it.

I do have one caveat. When I did my masters' program in a different field part time (for economic reasons) I still kept my job in my original field. When my plans changed (largely due to intervening marriage and children) and decided to stay with my original field it was easy to do it since I just kept working in my original job. Had I quit that job for 2 years to do the master's program and I decided to go back to my original field I would have had to find a new job and explain a 2 year absence from the field. Keeping the original job in the original field let me hedge my bets.

In your case (not mine) you might be able to get an entry level job in the new field and start doing the MBA part time and might get an opportunity during the time you are working on it to get some tuition reimbursement from your employer.

So, overall, I think going part-time while working is probably less risky.
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I'm expecting a thread in 4 years: "I have student loans for $120k,

------------------------------------------------------

I'd increase that one a little bit. School often costs more than you think. And I know that the local state college has been raising costs 20-30% a year for the last several years.


Do you think there's any chance this person is contemplating a local state school?


--Booa
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Do you think there's any chance this person is contemplating a local state school?

Not when they said that none of the schools are near them, and they have said they are contemplating $60k - $120k in debt.

AJ
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My thought was that if state tuition is going up, private school tuition certainly isn't going down.

Ishtar
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You could graduate #1 in your class from the most prestigious MBA school in the country and I would not be inclined to hire you because of these factors.

This!

I have friends who make these kinds of decisions. They spend thousands on an oak front door to a crumbling house, fly across the country to buy an old Land Cruiser because it's "reliable"...they whizz away fortunes ignoring the foundations of success for the veneer of success. "lioil" is going to find out the hard way that until he changes his decision making process, no school in the world is going to help.
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I have an MBA from one of the better rated Universities (btw, those ratings change about as often as a 3-month old's diapers- the "hot" school of this year may not be there next year- with the possible exception of the really elite top 5 schools, the rankings tend to fluctuate wildly from year to year)

It will help you get jobs, but it doesn't assure you success, or even a great starting salary.

And if you are going to a school not in the to 50 or so, that MBA might not be worth much more than the paper it's printed on. Don't think that MBA from Arkansas State (or whatever) is going to be a life changer.

I really don't care what you do, just don't stick me with the bill (no government loans)...
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"Maybe this is a cultural thing as well since i am from asian family "

Oh geez.

Okay, I married into this culture.

Asians tend to put a very high value on education, which is good.

Unfortunately, they sometimes take it to ludicrous extremes- collecting degrees as if they were Lladro figurines, with no real goal other than collecting the nth degree and hoping something good comes from it, or taking a degree in a field they hate just because it has prestige and/or financial potential.

Don't collect another degree (especially a high cost degree) if you don't have a real plan. Don't do it because your parents will be proud that you now have 3, 4, 5, or 6 degrees. Don't do it just because your Mother's fourth cousin Kung-Chen Liu has an MBA and your parents will lose face if you don't get one too.
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Don't think that MBA from Arkansas State (or whatever) is going to be a life changer.

Ok, so this reminds me of a job I had when I was 18 at the now defunct HQ hardware store. One of my coworkers had an MBA from UCA (Univeristy of Central Arkansas). Cautionary tale!

Although I think others are right that if you get a part time MBA, wherever you get it from, you are going to be in a stronger position overall. And you should weigh the extra cost of a pricey school, plus the interest on the debt, against any realistic salary increase. Do a cost benefit analysis on the whole thing. It's good practice for business school!
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And if you are going to a school not in the to 50 or so, that MBA might not be worth much more than the paper it's printed on. Don't think that MBA from Arkansas State (or whatever) is going to be a life changer.


This is true for 100% of the schools, not just those below the top 50.

Once you're out of school and the actual work starts, the MBA - regardless of where it's from - becomes more and more meaningless as your abilities or lack thereof take over.
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There does seem to be a very large group against MBA here - is it mainly because of the debt? For example, would anyone's opinion about it change if I had gone into this without incurring much debt? Or do most still think the best way to go is PT MBA?

It's not that people are against an MBA, per se. It's going for a second MBA combined with going deeply into debt to do it. It just seems like you could make better career choices without being in debt up to your eyeballs, ya know?

LWW
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Do you think there's any chance this person is contemplating a local state school?

Not with tuition costs expected to be $120K.

LWW
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And for those who suggested option 2 - I think I will go for that. My dad is still very adamant about loaning me money and is making a big deal about me being idiot not saving from the 30kish interest. I will try to convince him not to loan - any suggestions to counter him? He doesn't seem to care about the financial burden on him.

----------------------------------------------------------

Refuse to cash the check. </obvious>

Trying to blame your *dad* on pressuring you to let him mortgage your house is patently ridiculous.


OK, I didn't think I'd end up saying this, but I think people are being too hard on lioil. People who are suggesting this is performance art, people who say, you just don't cash the checks, I think do not have experience with cultures in which your parents aggressively try to give you money, and that's the norm in your culture, and yes, they are all up in your business, because that's also the norm in your culture.

I think while people may not have experience with that "I will lend you the money at all costs to myself" attitude (i.e., my mother, and yes, I had to learn to do things like tear up checks, but then *gifts* would arrive, people, and really, stupidly impractical stuff. Think gold-plated toilet. Because the more expensive it is, the better it is, right?) but I think everyone has experience with pressure from a parent in some arena or another, and how hard that can be to deal with, particularly if the parent is nearby, or calls every day, or that kind of thing.

And that it takes time to learn to deal with it, and that it takes time to say, gently and firmly, "I am an adult, and this is my business and none of yours, and I will make my decisions and pay for them, and thank you so much for all your help, I am not being ungrateful, it's just time for me to do this on my own." Particularly if it's not something that happens in your parents' culture, and you are living in an area that is really really immersed in your parents' culture (which can happen more often than you think).

I have lived in areas with a lot of Asian influence, and what lioil is saying is not unfamiliar to me. I'm not saying every Asian family is like this, but I've seen a degree of interdependence between older and younger generations that is higher than in typical Anglo culture. So while I also think that the original poster should decline his parents' offer, I don't think it's performance art, and I think his degree of enmeshment with his parents is not all that weird for an Asian guy in his late twenties. Maybe it's not within a first standard deviation, but it's certainly within three.


--Booa
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My thought was that if state tuition is going up, private school tuition certainly isn't going down.

OK, that makes sense. Thanks, I thought somehow you'd managed to miss some part of the thread...


--Booa
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I do feel you on this Booa. I don't think it's performance art by any means and the minute the OP said they were Asian I flashed on my friend whose parents bought her a 300k townhouse after college and her bf's parents furnished it and thought, yeah that makes sense. (and how much it cracked me up that she had a Ming Vase next to hello kitty figurines!).

And I also understand the parents trying to push things on you while you are trying to be independent thing. My mom one time came to visit and she wanted SO badly to buy me a magazine rack and I was getting so frustrated about it because I hardly ever buy magazines and didn't need one that I snapped and said "If you just HAVE to buy me something, get something I actually want like some rollerblades or something". That wasn't 120k, granted, but I do understand.
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I do feel you on this Booa. I don't think it's performance art by any means and the minute the OP said they were Asian I flashed on my friend whose parents bought her a 300k townhouse after college and her bf's parents furnished it and thought, yeah that makes sense. (and how much it cracked me up that she had a Ming Vase next to hello kitty figurines!).

And I also understand the parents trying to push things on you while you are trying to be independent thing. My mom one time came to visit and she wanted SO badly to buy me a magazine rack and I was getting so frustrated about it because I hardly ever buy magazines and didn't need one that I snapped and said "If you just HAVE to buy me something, get something I actually want like some rollerblades or something". That wasn't 120k, granted, but I do understand.


Thanks, Lea. :-) It's good to be heard.


--Booa
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And if you already have 1 grad degree, what is an additional high-priced degree really going to buy you?


A 2-year deferment from having to grow up.
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The last three jobs I hired (all in the past three months) were taken by candidates with college degrees: one was a BS, the other two held BAs. All three of those candidates won those jobs over dozens of MBA candidates.

I was just thinking the same thing. Looking back over the last few hires, they were the ones with a BS or an MS.
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Or there's an option #4 if the OP is willing to think outside the box

http://www.fuqua.duke.edu/programs/duke_mba/cross_continent/...

Doubt anyone as fixated on the 'name' of the school as the OP, would argue that Duke is lacking in that regard. A program like this would still cost - but being able to work while doing it means the eventual student debt would be less. And the networking, contacts, recruiters, etc, would still be available too.

However, I'm not convinced that the OP isn't trying to avoid having to grow up - and if the objective is to avoid growing up, then a program like this won't be the answer.
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Yeah i tried saying that but basically the response was "so you are willing to owe 30kish extra just so you can have pride for being an adult"?

"Yes, exactly. Thanks for understanding."
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I think do not have experience with cultures in which your parents aggressively try to give you money, and that's the norm in your culture, and yes, they are all up in your business, because that's also the norm in your culture.

Not guilty. :)
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A whole 5 years working experience at age 29? Man, you're cooking.


Ishtar


LOL I think I had about that much by the time I graduated high school. I'm about sick and tired of gaining work experience now. Remember in high school we just couldn't wait to get out of that hell hole and begin our grown up lives? Well now I think I'd give anything to just be back in high school. It's weird how 25 years can change one's perspective, huh?

This is a weird thread topic for me. I'm trying to groom my seven and eight year old boys for a no-college life.

xtn
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This is a weird thread topic for me. I'm trying to groom my seven and eight year old boys for a no-college life.


Do you mind if I ask why and what you are guiding them towards instead? This topic recently came up at work and I am interested in others' opinions on it.

Minxie
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lioil: It Won't hurt you to learn what an apostrophe is.

joycets
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If someone wants a certain degree because they want it, and they want it from the place they want it from, we don't need to try to persuade them out of it. Some people want a facelift or boob job or other thing that will change their image of themselves and they won't settle for less. No problem. We just want to make sure they understand they are being stuck for a lot of money for this thing... now let them go in peace and enjoy paying for the MBA at *superschool in good place*.

p.s does this career involve international business by any chance?
joycets
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I will try to convince him not to loan

Is he going to glue the money to your hand or something? You don't need to convince him of anything YOU ARE A FREAKING ADULT ALL YOU HAVE TO SAY IS "NO THANK YOU".

Lara Amber
---------------<rant on>
everyone, it is clear to me that lioli is not a native of our United States Culture, whether born here or not, he/she has a different background. Respect for what parents want to do is different from ours, use of English language is different from ours, and this person has different perceptions about the value of this degree. It may involve assimilation into the culture desired, or something else. The use of language may also involve some physical difficulty or other issue that is unclear to us on the other side of the screen. (apostrophes & mis spellings take extra keystrokes, difficult for some hands; etc.)

What I find most interesting is a total and complete lack of info about what field this person is interested in working in! Not like I have any idea what an MBA does, unless they go into politics and try to screw up the country.


<rant off>
joycets (off my rant)
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It Won't hurt you to learn what an apostrophe is.

Don't think that's going to happen at business school.

Having gone to one of those 'name schools' - I can tell you that they expect you to come to school knowing what an apostrophe is....

AJ
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i do understand the financial burden that will occur but it is a career and life changing degree.

My personal experience has led me to the following position:

1. It is not a life changing degree.
2. I personally will not hire somebody for a finance position that wasted $120K on something that won't make him do a better job for me. I'd rather have the guy that EARNED $120K while learning on the job for the previous couple of years. He's made a decision that put him $240K ahead of the other guy and he will do better work too.

xtn
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I'm trying to groom my seven and eight year old boys for a no-college life.

Do you mind if I ask why and what you are guiding them towards instead?

Because I believe that the trend over time is towards every stinking person on the planet going to college, resulting in a dilution of the advantage it might give. Because I believe whatever advantage attending college might still provide can be at least partly offset - both in lifetime earnings and in the wisdom to multiply it - by starting work four years earlier. Because I believe college turns out better employees than it does entrepreneurs, and I prefer my kids to be the latter.

I am attempting to groom them for entrepreneurial success.

Doesn't mean I'm against college. I'm sure they will be well served by some college courses, but I feel it may be most efficient to select specific courses from a junior college to help round out skill weaknesses without regard for a degree. As an example: When I discovered the need to have an understanding of proper financial accounting, I went and took accounting classes at night until the problem was solved.

It also doesn't mean I expect them to succeed right out of the box. I'm more trying to mold them into the kind of person that keeps on modifying their methodology until they do succeed at something. I don't want them thinking, "That can't be done." Instead I want them thinking, "Okay so it can't be done THAT way... how could I do it differently?"

Sorry for rambling on with my answer,
xtn
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Because I believe college turns out better employees than it does entrepreneurs, and I prefer my kids to be the latter.

Here's an article about someone else who is attempting to grow entrepeneurs, too: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Tech-mogul-pays-bright-minds-a...

AJ
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Doesn't mean I'm against college. I'm sure they will be well served by some college courses, but I feel it may be most efficient to select specific courses from a junior college to help round out skill weaknesses without regard for a degree. As an example: When I discovered the need to have an understanding of proper financial accounting, I went and took accounting classes at night until the problem was solved.

It also doesn't mean I expect them to succeed right out of the box. I'm more trying to mold them into the kind of person that keeps on modifying their methodology until they do succeed at something. I don't want them thinking, "That can't be done." Instead I want them thinking, "Okay so it can't be done THAT way... how could I do it differently?"

Sorry for rambling on with my answer,
xtn


Well, I guess I can ramble too.....

It's hard to put into words. It's like college, and maybe school in general, all "teach to the test". Many times in real life there is more than one "right" answer.

Our best employees have not had college, or very little. They did have a willingness to learn and to look for more than one "right" answer. We hire mostly bookkeepers and hydrostatic mechanics. The ones we have trained often go to bigger cities for hirer pay, more benefits, and because they don't want to live in the sticks any more. Our current crew has been with us for 15+ years now though.

We often get in equipment that some other company has played "replace the part". They think it might be X so replace it, but there is still a problem so they replace another part. We test the equipment to see where the problem is. One recently had over $20,000 in repairs before it came to us. The problem was a travel pump that cost about $3,500, but we rebuilt it for about $1.500.

Both DH and I have college degrees. We wanted our kid to go to college too. He tried it for 2 quarters, did poorly and quit. (I wouldn't pay for another quarter) Went to work for a company doing programing. They were hiring trainees and he was/is very good. Well I guess he is, I can't understand most of what he says.

One of the places his company was contracted with offered him a job at a good salary. Much better than he was getting as a contractor. Where he works this college/no college comes up too. Partly because some of the employees with college are paid less than he is paid.

He's working now to get a degree on line. Primarily because larger companies out filter the resumes of people with no degree or have a degree as a requirement. Without the degree he's as high as he can go.

I wonder about the degree on line. It's Western Governor's College. He seems to think it's okay and I couldn't find anything bad about it. He's paying for it and I figure at this stage maybe it is just the degree that matters not the school.

Mick, did you read this far? Am I way off base?

I often wonder if our game at "What's the same as" didn't cause the problems. Like 2/4 is the same as 1/2, then we would name all the fractions that were really the same. He said two and one-half fifths. Good grief I would have never thought of a fraction of a fraction. He was probably about 7.

Jean
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<<I have lived in areas with a lot of Asian influence, and what lioil is saying is not unfamiliar to me. I'm not saying every Asian family is like this, but I've seen a degree of interdependence between older and younger generations that is higher than in typical Anglo culture. So while I also think that the original poster should decline his parents' offer, I don't think it's performance art, and I think his degree of enmeshment with his parents is not all that weird for an Asian guy in his late twenties. Maybe it's not within a first standard deviation, but it's certainly within three.


--Booa >>



Thanks for your observations.

In the prevailing general American value scheme, it's very common for children to take loans or "loans" from parents and not pay them back. Often they aren't treated as a business arrangement, but that can still do harm if the person making the loan needs it repaid and can cause hurt feelings.

You've described the attitude toward loans in some Asian cultures. What is the attitude toward loan REPAYMENT?



Seattle Pioneer
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<<I am attempting to groom them for entrepreneurial success.>>



Interesting idea. What are your methods to accomplish this purpose and how do your children react to this kind of program?

What about your spouse?

How do you deal with the huge pro college bias of society?



Seattle Pioneer
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@Seattle Pioneer
The chinese culture does emphasize on education a lot - perhaps more than caucassians but that's another debate altogether. I have seen parents pour all their money into their kids education - they could get a house, new tv, new car etc. but instead they put their kids through private schools and the best school their kids can get into. My parent's circle for example has kids pretty much going to IVY + schools. Also people here probably heard about the "battle hymn of the tiger mother" discussions couple of months back - that might be a bit extreme but i know some parents beating their kids into getting into Yale...

Now as for the repayment - the parents expects the kids to take care of them when they retire(i guess in all cultures right?) and that is usually living with the kids when they retire - they would live by themselves before going into a retirement home.. Also chinese people (i guess people in general?) dont like to "give money away". For example, I mentioned how my parents say they would help me and insisted to help me (and my sister/brother in law offered help too) instead of me borrowing. This comes back to "why pay the extra 30k interest just to prove something when you can borrow from family and save that money?" It might make sense in caucasian culture to do that just to prove something but at least the chinese people around here would be like "why would you do that?"

And for the chinese culture - most chinese would feel shameful and disgraceful for not paying back (unless physically can't) but americanized chinese might have more of an american attitude (like you mentioned above).

I am not debating whether for me to go into MBA or not in this post - i am just responding to a previous one...
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I am not debating whether for me to go into MBA or not in this post - i am just responding to a previous one...

Okay, so culture aside for a minute.

What, exactly, are you going to get out of your 2nd MBA? What is so special about it that it would be worth going into debt to the tune of up to $120K? Most of the people I know in higher ed, got 1 MBA, then as they needed extra training or whatever, they went through specialization programs to be certified in other areas. Not nearly so expensive and you can continue to work while you do it.

So, please, explain to me in simple terms, what the 2nd MBA will do for you that working and picking up other certificates won't?

LWW
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So, please, explain to me in simple terms, what the 2nd MBA will do for you that working and picking up other certificates won't?

I could be wrong but I didn't think it was a second MBA. I thought it was a second masters' degree. I thought he had a master's in another field. I had the impression he was in a technical field (perhaps IT? or computer science?) and had a masters in that field (that he earned online) and now wants to change careers to business instead of the technical field.

If so, I sort of understand the reason for an MBA but personally have issues with the $120k MBA since an MBA can be gotten for less and without necessarily having to do a full time program.
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I may have misunderstood, but when he wrote this:

i want to change careers. I think it is quite common for MBAers to have multiple degrees nowadays...

I thought he was saying that he already had an MBA and was going to get another one.

lioil, care to weigh in on this?

LWW
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Good question LWW. I was basing it on comments he made where he referred to it as a masters while he always refers to the new possible degree as an MBA. For example:

1. about "professional student" - i did my masters part time online while working full time for ~2.5 years. I have ~5 years of working ft experience in tech industry.
......

3. To get the most out of MBA FT is very important - the student interactions, projects, company visits and 100% career center help. PT and evenings dont have access to all those tools. Most students come in to get MBA to switch careers - whether industry, function or both. Some do get MBA just so they can climb the corporate ladder faster.


He also talked about his employer reimbursing for the master's (if he stayed there) so that employed it was in the same field he was working in (tech industry). But I agree it would be helpful if the OP clarified this? (I certainly agree with you LWW that a second MBA wouldn't seem to make any sense at all).
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<<I have lived in areas with a lot of Asian influence, and what lioil is saying is not unfamiliar to me. I'm not saying every Asian family is like this, but I've seen a degree of interdependence between older and younger generations that is higher than in typical Anglo culture. So while I also think that the original poster should decline his parents' offer, I don't think it's performance art, and I think his degree of enmeshment with his parents is not all that weird for an Asian guy in his late twenties. Maybe it's not within a first standard deviation, but it's certainly within three.


--Booa >>



Thanks for your observations.

In the prevailing general American value scheme, it's very common for children to take loans or "loans" from parents and not pay them back. Often they aren't treated as a business arrangement, but that can still do harm if the person making the loan needs it repaid and can cause hurt feelings.

You've described the attitude toward loans in some Asian cultures. What is the attitude toward loan REPAYMENT?


SP, I don't know that it would be considered a loan at all in Asian cultures. It might be considered part of a parent's obligation to their children, and then later in life it's the child's obligation to take care of their parents.

I'm not an expert on Asian culture, but in my family, my parents value education above all things, and considered it their solemn duty to pay for our education, until our training was done. It's what their parents did for them, and their parent's parents for their parents, and so on.

My brother and I had no loans after college, because my dad paid for it, and if we'd tried to pay him back, he wouldn't have taken the money. I went to grad school in engineering, so I didn't have to pay for that (until later on down the road, when my advisor ran out of funds, but I took student loans for that and did *not* tell my parents about it. Which they would consider me being dishonest, so please don't tell them, 'K?). My brother went to med school and yes, my parents paid for that, too. And we know our jobs are to do well in school so we can have good jobs and support ourselves someday, and put *our* kids through school.

My dad values education so much, he's paid for college for two of my cousins, because his sister couldn't, and he paid for half the college of his girlfriend's daughter (her dad paid the other half), and he's paying for college for his stepson, and undoubtedly when my little sister goes to college, he'll foot that bill too. And he will never look to get paid back for any of this--not in money, at least.

He paid for my wedding, too. (Didn't pay for my brother's though--that's not what his culture does, dads pay for daughter's weddings, so that was for my SIL's parents to foot the bill.) My mom and aunt helped pay for social skills classes for my son, and my mom is always actively looking for opportunities to help us out in any way, financially or otherwise, but she's often mentioned that if we're not doing something because of money (joining Weight Watchers, buying a new couch, needing a down payment for a house), she's willing to help us out. And she wouldn't want to get paid back, either--to her it's what parents do.

Anyway, I'm getting away from my main point, which is, if I went to my dad and said, "I want to pay you back for my education," he'd say, "Save it for the pup's college." And in fact, both my parents have mentioned the ways they're planning on helping pay for my son to go to college. I've learned over the years to be more "American," more independent, to pay for my own stuff, and not always tell them when we need help (though I've taken help at times).

But I'm pretty familiar with parents wanting to help financially, not wanting you to waste money on interest by taking a loan when they can just give you the money, and it never crossing their mind that you'd consider it some kind of loan and think about paying it back. At most, my dad sometimes jokes about me picking out his nursing home, and says, "Hey, remember, I paid for your wedding!"


--Booa
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What, exactly, are you going to get out of your 2nd MBA? What is so special about it that it would be worth going into debt to the tune of up to $120K? Most of the people I know in higher ed, got 1 MBA, then as they needed extra training or whatever, they went through specialization programs to be certified in other areas. Not nearly so expensive and you can continue to work while you do it.

So, please, explain to me in simple terms, what the 2nd MBA will do for you that working and picking up other certificates won't?


Um, it's not a second MBA, it's a first MBA. OP has a master's degree, though.


--Booa
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To clarify the "2nd MBA" misunderstanding - I do have a Master Degree in Computer Science so this is will be my first MBA. There are people who do try to get a second MBA but they really need to justify the reason unless it is from MBA to Executive MBA.

@DrBooa
So true... your parents just like mine. On the wedding part my parents insist on paying for it even though i am a guy - but then again chinese parents view male as "more important" than female (current generation parents might not though)... Just recently i found out that my mom has been saving money on the side for when i buy an engagement ring - i was like wth? I suppose the way chinese parents act might make the children look "sheltered" or "dependent"...
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<<I am attempting to groom them for entrepreneurial success.>>


Interesting idea. What are your methods to accomplish this purpose and how do your children react to this kind of program?

What about your spouse?

How do you deal with the huge pro college bias of society?



Methodology: Hard to explain. I cannot articulate any kind of step by step approach. I look at what I believe to be a case of children having the imagination and self confidence to succeed and then by then end of their schooling years having most of it squashed out of them, and I try to parent in such a way that I hope helps retain some of it instead of helping to squash it out of them. I observe most adults flippantly saying they would rather work for themselves but being to afraid to try it. I try to avoid negative feedback when my kids make mistakes, and instead use each and every mistake or other obstacle as a brainstorming/learning opportunity. While they hear others talking about a job from the perspective of the employee, I talk to them about the same job from the perspective of the owner or boss. I take them to look at construction sights, just as an example, and teach them not only the work involved in forming and pouring concrete, but also the work involved in pricing, selling, pre-planning, contracting, hiring and scheduling, etc. When we walk through a shopping center we don't talk about the products. We talk about the various business models in evidence and the operational requirements of staffing, bookkeeping, purchasing, etc. I'm not looking to teach them a specific skill set, but rather to leave them reaching adulthood with a specific mind set. I want them to maintain into adulthood those qualities that I believe contribute to entrepreneurial fortitude.

My spouse: I married an Asian girl with multiple degrees, so the pro-college voice is definitely heard in our house. We don't argue about it though. We both agree that the end goal is to have our children understand the pros and cons of as many life-path choices as possible, and to hopefully help them obtain enough wisdom to make decisions they will be happy with.

Dealing with society's pro-college bias: Not much to deal with really. I'm not trying to actively steer my kids away from college. I just try to give them a balanced view, sharing with them my opinions of what's good about college and what's bad about it. This isn't a sit-down-at-the-table-one-night kind of discussion. It's more a situation of spreading out the info and reinforcing it over years of time, bit by bit, as they gain the life experience to understand it.

Don't know if my efforts will produce the fruit I desire. If it doesn't, I'm okay with it. Millions of college graduates slump through their work days and take home more than their "uneducated" coworkers. But most of the unseen millionaires in our society are the self employed dump truck mechanic, the farm equipment auctioneer, the owner of the small temp-employment service business, the HVAC contractor like you SP. The guy who identifies a local hole and fills it up the best. I want my kids to grow up and have the instinctive mentality to see those holes, the creative intelligence to figure out a solution, the courage and self esteem to implement that solution, and the fortitude to not take failures or setbacks too much to heart.

Any suggestions on specific approaches or methodologies I might incorporate will be read with appreciation.

xtn
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SP -

I forgot to add...

In April I purchased a small tractor to mow, brush clear, and otherwise help maintain our seventeen acres. My 7-yr-old asked me how much it cost. It's a big number for his little ears. His eyes grew wide and he told me, "Wow, you better do a lot of jobs with it before it will ever pay for itself!"

xtn (proud papa)
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<<@Seattle Pioneer
The chinese culture does emphasize on education a lot - perhaps more than caucassians but that's another debate altogether. I have seen parents pour all their money into their kids education - they could get a house, new tv, new car etc. but instead they put their kids through private schools and the best school their kids can get into. My parent's circle for example has kids pretty much going to IVY + schools. Also people here probably heard about the "battle hymn of the tiger mother" discussions couple of months back - that might be a bit extreme but i know some parents beating their kids into getting into Yale...

Now as for the repayment - the parents expects the kids to take care of them when they retire(i guess in all cultures right?) and that is usually living with the kids when they retire ->>



There's a lot to be said for that valuer scheme, in my opinion. It focuses resources on providing the best possible opportunities for children, and on motivating children to achieve.

I suppose it can be oppressive if carried too far or with the wrong person.

I remember when I used to be at the home of recent Vietnamese immigrants as a repairman in the 1980s. Very often the grandparents were at home, supervising the children while both parents were off working. That provided a home for aging parents and provided what was probably superior care for children after school.

I saw a lot less of that in recent years as the next generation came along.



Seattle Pioneer
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<<Don't know if my efforts will produce the fruit I desire. If it doesn't, I'm okay with it. Millions of college graduates slump through their work days and take home more than their "uneducated" coworkers. But most of the unseen millionaires in our society are the self employed dump truck mechanic, the farm equipment auctioneer, the owner of the small temp-employment service business, the HVAC contractor like you SP. The guy who identifies a local hole and fills it up the best. I want my kids to grow up and have the instinctive mentality to see those holes, the creative intelligence to figure out a solution, the courage and self esteem to implement that solution, and the fortitude to not take failures or setbacks too much to heart.>>


I'm impressed! It sounds like you have a fine program which is also pursued in a balanced way. I wish you and your family every success!



Seattle Pioneer
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<<SP -

I forgot to add...

In April I purchased a small tractor to mow, brush clear, and otherwise help maintain our seventeen acres. My 7-yr-old asked me how much it cost. It's a big number for his little ears. His eyes grew wide and he told me, "Wow, you better do a lot of jobs with it before it will ever pay for itself!"

xtn (proud papa) >>



Heh, heh! As the twig is bent....


Perhaps he will put that tool to work as a profit maker in a few years!



Seattle Pioneer
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Perhaps he will put that tool to work as a profit maker in a few years!

Yes. Perhaps I'll rent it to him and let him use his time and effort to turn a profit for himself. :)

xtn
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It has been very intersting reading this post and when I read that you are from an asian family your question about how to finance your degree made so much more sense. Americans have a very different attitude toward family and money and the father's insistance on lending the son money is very much a cultural attitude. I have had the priviledge of knowing many asian families as clients of mine (in the past when I still practiced as a CPA) and of law firms that I worked with. To borrow money is not something that asian families do unless for major business investments or perhaps the first home. Families take care of each other and that includes sharing the money. What we americans may consider a loan is not looked at that way for an asian father. Paying interest to someone outside of their circle of family or friends is simply not done.

A few years ago I got to know an elderly asian couple. The couple's best friends were another couple they had known since they were all very young and poor. Both couples lived in Hongkong and were by now very wealthy. However, when they were young they agreed that everything they would every own they would always share equally. That included that their respective children would share equally in the estate of either of the four adults. As the couples with time became very wealthy and their children all went to US Ivy league schools and on their own became very well to do they still adhered to the original agreement. No money, other than necessary business deals, were borrowed from strangers. All education for all children were paid for by the parents. They did not look at this as "time to grow up, kids" simply as prudent money management. On the other hand the parents would never have to think about having to move to a nursing home. Everyone in the family took turns and paid for in-home care when the parents were no longer able to manage money or decisions. Similarly many of my asian friends now are at the age when their parents need daily care and all siblings take turns to care for them, even when it means long week-end travel two to three times per months.

Young man, your big decision will be whether this advanced degree makes sense from a professional point of view or if you are getting it because it gives you a better image with you family and friends. You will have to use your judgement if having your parents pay for your schooling (perhaps take out a life insurance for the amount before you get the funds)is so important to them from a cultural standpoint that it would over-ride your desire to do it on your own. Your parents are probably not looking at neither their or your money as separate but as our family funds.

I would recommend you spend more time researching what your plans are for the future and if a MBA would take you to where you want to go.

good luck
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sorry for the many spelling errors...

Is there an Edit button once the post has been submitted?
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<<Is there an Edit button once the post has been submitted? >>


No.


But people are a lot more concerned about the content of posts than details of editing. I thought yours was well worth reading.



Seattle Pioneer

Who not infrequently has speeling issues of his own...
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It has been very intersting reading this post and when I read that you are from an asian family your question about how to finance your degree made so much more sense. Americans have a very different attitude toward family and money and the father's insistance on lending the son money is very much a cultural attitude. I have had the priviledge of knowing many asian families as clients of mine (in the past when I still practiced as a CPA) and of law firms that I worked with. To borrow money is not something that asian families do unless for major business investments or perhaps the first home. Families take care of each other and that includes sharing the money. What we americans may consider a loan is not looked at that way for an asian father. Paying interest to someone outside of their circle of family or friends is simply not done.

But here's the thing. I don't think the problem many of us have is with the OP borrowing money from his parents...if his parents had the money the lend. The situation here is that some is going to pay interest to someone outside the family. Either it is the OP through student loans or it is his parents through a loan secured by their residence.

If his parents had the cash and wanted to lend to him, fair enough. But in this situation the parents have to borrow the money from a bank to lend to their son. That seems to be different than the parents simply paying for his graduate school or loaning him cash they have on hand. The problem here is that the risk is on the parents and it sounds like a significant risk since it is one secured by their home.
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Post 302161 indicates that the parents have the cash. The mortgage option was a loan at a lower interest rate than the student loan.

The young man is in a tug-of-war between two strong cultures in regards to the money. The big question however is whether the MBA is a good idea or not.
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