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No. of Recommendations: 8
Self-described, "big-time, ex-military, Tea-Party Republican" does the math on Obamacare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USe5Ntl_Jas

Vox also has an article about this guy.

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/22/8470129/how-obamacare-almost-co...

</snip>


intercst
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No. of Recommendations: 34
Pretty funny. I LMAO just listening to the loser in the video. He may have claimed to be a tea party person but he has everything wrong.

He says he asked himself what 'party has done the most for him'? Well, a limited gov't conservative would never ask that question. Hell, even a liberal should never ask that question. Perhaps that is why both the dems and reps keep getting loony tune types that win the primaries. What a disgrace. The question every voter should be asking is, 'what candidate will govern with integrity and follow the constitution.

Then he laments about being old and with medical problems. Poor baby. By the looks of his 'fat' face, he weighs between 300-400 lbs. Get on a stair master tubby. Eat some fruits and veggies for a change.

Then he says, if it weren't for Obamacare, he would have to work till he's 65. Oh the horror of it all! What a loser. I raised 3 kids (adopting one) and had a stay at home wife most of our marriage. We will retire in our mid 50's. Could of retired last year at 52 if I wanted to but want a little more buffer. I'll retire without gov't aid. I'll get good ole fashion insurance and take care of myself by exercising and eating a strict diet. What a big overweight, over-sized cry baby.

So this stellar individual of ethics and morality is getting his health care subsidized by the gov't and that is the only reason he can retire? I have a name I call people like that and I won't mention it on a message board because it will be pulled.

He says Obamacare pays for his gym membership... right.... I can tell.

If he ever was a true 'tea party' member, he'd die before he would vote for socialist, incompetent, corrupt person like Hillary.

The guy is a loser and the type of person liberal's like to put up as stellar examples of Republican tea party types. But now that he's living off the gov't, I guess he is a democrat hero.

What a disgrace. Either this is a set-up or the guy never had an ounce of integrity in his life.

Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 41
I'll retire without gov't aid. I'll get good ole fashion insurance and take care of myself by exercising and eating a strict diet.

Without Obamacare and with retirement around 55, how are going to get, or pay for if you can find, "good ole fashion insurance" if, before Medicare kicks in, you find yourself with an expensive prior condition?

Dennis
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No. of Recommendations: 6
MetalDecathlete wrote:
He may have claimed to be a tea party person but he has everything wrong.

That's a pretty good definition of a Tea Party person. Don't you know this isn't a political board and stupid posts like yours (and mine) will just cause dissension? Not cool. Take it elsewhere.

-IGU-
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No. of Recommendations: 57
I'll retire without gov't aid. I'll get good ole fashion insurance and take care of myself by exercising and eating a strict diet. What a big overweight, over-sized cry baby.

Well, that's a dandy plan - unless somewhere along the line some anonymous doctor has made a mistake on your records and all those nice insurance companies decide you have "a pre existing condition" and refuse to insure you, which is what happened to me.

But let's say there was not mistake - but that you still DO have a pre-existing condition. The insurance companies won't touch you (unless they are forced to with, you know, 'government aid.')

'good ole fashion insurance' is a great concept right up until the moment that the insurance companies refuse to do business with you . Then your choices are 1) risk your familiy's welfare (the biggest single reason for personal bankruptcy prior to the advent of Obamacare: medical bills), or 2) keep working until you are Medicare eligible, which I note, is "government aid."

Ah yes, the heroic myth of the rugged individual, where government intrusion is never warranted. I happen to be one of the millions where not only was it warranted, it would have changed my life and allowed me the freedom to start my own company. And it's not as though I was 400 pounds and sedentary. Around 190, 6' tall, active, but yes, smoker in my youth

Here is the story which I have told before. You might want to look at the rec count on it. Surely not everyone was so affected, but I'll bet many were.

http://boards.fool.com/i-apply-for-insurance-i-get-insurance...
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No. of Recommendations: 8
The similarities between the self-described tea party guy and meetaldecathlete are striking.
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No. of Recommendations: 7
Just to refresh your memory, the original post brought politics into the thread.

Self-described, "big-time, ex-military, Tea-Party Republican" does the math on Obamacare.

And to show the other side of the Obamacare math, my retirement has been delayed about 5+ years because of Obamacare. Like all things political, some win and some lose.

JLC
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No. of Recommendations: 54
my retirement has been delayed about 5+ years because of Obamacare

I'm calling BS. I don't think you can even make up a good enough story to explain this.
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No. of Recommendations: 0
I begin applying for insurance again, and with the help of an aggressive agent and countless phone calls from my new doctor, manage to secure a policy for just under $1000 a month, $10,000 deductible, no pharma benefit, lowest lifetime cap they offer. I am thrilled and I take it.

My wife can now leave her job.

Is this any way to run an airline?


Read your story. So, 5 years later, with Obamacare, the payment is 700 a month; the deductible is 6,000 a year;

Is this any way to run an government-run program? Or.....

People have insurance, its just they can't go to a doctor... because they can't afford it
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No. of Recommendations: 1
Without Obamacare and with retirement around 55, how are going to get, or pay for if you can find, "good ole fashion insurance" if, before Medicare kicks in, you find yourself with an expensive prior condition?

Dennis


This is what I plan on using. Since we are Christians and follow a Biblically based lifestyle, we should have no problem with qualifications. If for some reason we are rejected, which seems highly doubtful, I will go research for high deductible plans geared towards healthy people. At one time, there were plans geared to vegans/healthy people, which both DW and I fit the bill.

We have lived liked this for over 20 years and because if it, have no medical problems. I don't even need glasses.

http://www.chministries.org/howitworks.aspx

Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 10
That's a pretty good definition of a Tea Party person. Don't you know this isn't a political board and stupid posts like yours (and mine) will just cause dissension? Not cool. Take it elsewhere.

-IGU-


Oh nice. Liberals take shot's all the time on this board, including my friend intercst, but nobody ever complains about that. Intercst posted a direct political post and often does indirect political comments on a consistent basis. I don't see you calling him out?

I'm a fan of intercst and I don't hide it, but on occasion, I like to post rebuttals to him. The guy in the video rubbed me the wrong way so I decided not to let it go. Grow a pair.

Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 4
gh
'good ole fashion insurance' is a great concept right up until the moment that the insurance companies refuse to do business with you . Then your choices are 1) risk your familiy's welfare (the biggest single reason for personal bankruptcy prior to the advent of Obamacare: medical bills), or 2) keep working until you are Medicare eligible, which I note, is "government aid."

Ah yes, the heroic myth of the rugged individual, where government intrusion is never warranted. I happen to be one of the millions where not only was it warranted, it would have changed my life and allowed me the freedom to start my own company. And it's not as though I was 400 pounds and sedentary. Around 190, 6' tall, active, but yes, smoker in my youth

Here is the story which I have told before. You might want to look at the rec count on it. Surely not everyone was so affected, but I'll bet many were.

http://boards.fool.com/i-apply-for-insurance-i-get-insurance......


Despite being a traditionalist in many ways, I am pretty much a nonconformist. For example, my 1st home that I helped build was a geodesic dome. Cost efficient all around in materials and utilities. I'm a vegan and an organic gardener for health reasons. I look for better ways to do things and question almost everything. I've tried many things that have failed, admit being wrong and I go back to the drawing board.

After I retire, I plan on building my own small rural home, making it as energy efficient and self-sustaining as possible using alternative energy sources. I'm a software developer by profession but an engineer at heart and look forward to the challenge. I would like to have a home that could exist off the grid if possible.

Rugged individual is dang right. I'll still have a high deductible plan for the unthinkable accident, but overall, I believe in protecting my self and not relying on the gov't, business' or insurance for my health. I take personal responsibility and live by it.

In the end, I live by decisions. If I die, I die. I know where I'm going. I trust in God first, secondly myself, thirdly my family and generally expect nor depend on much else. Before the 20th century, people lived like that because they had no choice. I don't see the point in over obsessing about covering each possible outcome, medical or otherwise, during life's journey.

Having said that, I have auto, home, umbrella and health insurance and always will. But all are high deductible. I dropped my life insurance a couple of years ago after I made my 1st mil. Don't need it anymore.

And back to health and medical care, my secret weapon is being a mostly raw food vegan that avoids destructive refined foods. The odds are pretty good DW and I will make it 65 without any major medical issues. In my case, I'm more likely to be injured from one of my adventure's. As a 'rugged individual' I hike, mountain bikie kayak and do many other things. In addition, I've been building up my HSA account and putting in the max since my company 1st gave me the option. I have plans, within plans within plans.

When it comes to my $, I take few chances. :)

Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 5
jgc123
The similarities between the self-described tea party guy and meetaldecathlete are striking.

I had to 'un' ignore you to read your post. I see that my original reason for putting you there must have been sound. Back you go.

Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 13
... my retirement has been delayed about 5+ years because of Obamacare.

I hope you'll elaborate with details and particulars.

PF
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No. of Recommendations: 5
My sister was negatively impacted by Obamacare. She was on a great state healthcare program where she was getting health insurance at much less than half of what she is now paying with Obamacare. The state canceled her medical plan once Obamacare was available.

The whole you'll get to keep your doctor, keep your plan nonsense...

So I'd say she's been impacted, not sure if it's 5+ years or not.

--
whyohwhyoh
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No. of Recommendations: 0
Which state did that?

PF
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No. of Recommendations: 1
New Mexico.... but now she has a "free" gym membership. So it's all good.

--
whyohwhyoh
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No. of Recommendations: 0
Did she have one of the policies that Obamacare defined as providing inadequate coverage?
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No. of Recommendations: 2
Did she have one of the policies that Obamacare defined as providing inadequate coverage?

Not sure as they cancelled the whole program, and "adequate coverage" is likely defined in a 1000 page document I'm not willing to research through. She had a pretty sweet government state backed policy though at a great rate. Covered pregnancy and everything she was using it for at lower co-payments than she has now. Signing up for Obamacare was an extremely stressful time for her.... and she didn't complain at all... as she loves Obama.

...

Granted, Obamacare is making it much less risky for me to retire at 41 years old later this year, so I'm not complaining at all. I'm just giving a wide spread example of how Obamacare hurts the lower-middle class.

As a 1%er it's helping the crap out of me. But I'm not sure Obama had me in mind when he was implementing this program.

--
whyohwhyoh
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No. of Recommendations: 33
My sister was negatively impacted by Obamacare. She was on a great state healthcare program where she was getting health insurance at much less than half of what she is now paying with Obamacare. The state canceled her medical plan once Obamacare was available.


How is this a fault of Obamacare?

Sounds like your sister was negatively impacted by the state's decision to cut costs.


Jim
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No. of Recommendations: 1
How is this a fault of Obamacare?

Sounds like your sister was negatively impacted by the state's decision to cut costs.


The state had no intentions to cut the program until Obamacare came along.

Sorry I didn't make that clear in my original post.

--
whyohwhyoh
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No. of Recommendations: 2
whyohwhyoh:

<<<How is this a fault of Obamacare?

Sounds like your sister was negatively impacted by the state's decision to cut costs.>>>

"The state had no intentions to cut the program until Obamacare came along."

Maybe, maybe not. Kansas, Wisconsin, Louisiana and a whole other bunch of states have been cutting taxes and spending (especially on
government employees).

It also does not sound like Obama care forced the state to cut spending, so it still seems like a state/employer decision to me.

Regards, JAFO
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No. of Recommendations: 70
This is what I plan on using. Since we are Christians and follow a Biblically based lifestyle, we should have no problem with qualifications.

I'm not sure how this matters to a private insurance company. Without regulations, they decide on many different factors, one of the most important is "pre-existing conditions."

I am 68. I was on the committee to track down all of our 280 classmates of the High School Class of '64. We found all but 20, but we also found 40 who were already dead, and several others who were unable to attend because they were in wheelchairs or otherwise incapacitated. Many of the deceased were those who were athletes, fit, and who lived what we guess to be "normal lifestyles" (wives and children mentioned in the obits.) Three were medical doctors. One was a fitness trainer. They died anywhere from age 30 to just months before the reunion.

My wife's best friend was chugging along fine until a couple years ago. She did not smoke, ate healthy, bicycled and walked daily in Florida. Quite suddenly, at age 58, they found a cancer on her pancreas and she died last year following two years of chemo and other treatments which cost in excess of $10k per month. The hospital bills for exams, diagnosis, tests and so on were in the hundreds of thousands. Let's pretend for a moment that her husband lost his job at just the time her tumor was discovered. Do you think any private insurance company would have said "Oh sure, sign right up! You have a biblical lifestyle? Great!"

These are the kinds of things that happen in the real world. I hope they do not happen to you, but I wish that you would exhibit some empathy towards people who have not been so fortunate as yourself. And I would note that no matter how much you have been socking away into an HSA account, there are situations which defy your tidy situation, at least such as it has existed to this point.
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No. of Recommendations: 3
JAFO31 writes,

Maybe, maybe not. Kansas, Wisconsin, Louisiana and a whole other bunch of states have been cutting taxes and spending (especially on
government employees).

It also does not sound like Obama care forced the state to cut spending, so it still seems like a state/employer decision to me.

</snip>


If anything, Obamacare is pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into the state treasury. New Mexico is among the few states with a Republican governor that did the math and accepted the Obamacare Medicaid expansion.

intercst
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No. of Recommendations: 1
"I am 68. I was on the committee to track down all of our 280 classmates of the High School Class of '64. We found all but 20, but we also found 40 who were already dead, and several others who were unable to attend because they were in wheelchairs or otherwise incapacitated. Many of the deceased were those who were athletes, fit, and who lived what we guess to be "normal lifestyles" (wives and children mentioned in the obits.) Three were medical doctors. One was a fitness trainer. They died anywhere from age 30 to just months before the reunion.

My wife's best friend was chugging along fine until a couple years ago. She did not smoke, ate healthy, bicycled and walked daily in Florida. Quite suddenly, at age 58, they found a cancer on her pancreas and she died last year following two years of chemo and other treatments which cost in excess of $10k per month. The hospital bills for exams, diagnosis, tests and so on were in the hundreds of thousands. Let's pretend for a moment that her husband lost his job at just the time her tumor was discovered."

---

I don't know about my class of '64, but I know that 3 out of the 330 or so who graduated wound up dead in Vietnam. I suspect your class also had some who never returned as well.

Yes, folks die in accidents and athletes are no exception. In fact, many who were athletes (especially football) likely put on dozens if not hundreds of pounds on the 'standard American diet' of crap food, too much meat, too little veggies and fruit and 'green things'. They likely are more 'risk takers' with more dangerous hobbies and activities.

Too much beer (what, with 50% of the population overweight, and 33% obese), what did you expect? If all but 20 made it to the reunion, that is great.

And yes, some of the folks will be in wheelchairs due to accidents, some due to bad lifestyle choices. Others due to medical conditions. Right now, we have a diabesity epidemic...diabetes caused by a lifetime of being overweight. And eating a crap diet.

My BIL came down with pancreatic cancer Jan 2014. He is literally now on his last legs....won't last till June. Went through the chemo and radiation.....didn't work. Nasty stuff. Five year survival rate is 7%. Most die in 2 years or less. His family has a history of cancers. He ate mostly a 'Standard American Diet'....meat, lots of it, potatoes, and not enough of the veggie/fruits and healthy stuff. Not overweight, either.

YOu never know, but eating better than the Standard AMerican Diet is going to be alot better for most folks.

Uncle Bill made it to 94. Didn't eat a lot of meat, ate lots of beans and green things. Outlived all his many brothers/sisters by 10-30 years or more.

ObamaCare will likely make it possible for many people to retire. They'll be leeching off the working folks while doing it....but, heck, that is socialism. Low income, high subsidy. Just like Medicare. It all will come collapsing down in 20 years so enjoy it while it lasts.


t.
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No. of Recommendations: 12
We have lived liked this for over 20 years and because if it, have no medical problems. I don't even need glasses.

"Because of it"? You don't know this. How you live will not prevent you from getting cancer, or even having a heart condition. On average living well helps the general population, but individually anything can happen.

I'm too heavy, and should exercise more, but at 52 years old I still have 20/16 vision. This is simply genetic luck, not because I like carrots.

Your confidence in your immunity seems almost teen-like...either that or you seem to think that only bad things happen to those who "deserve" it.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
I retired at age 52.5.

Had private pay insurance till I reached 65.

Not a problem.

Yeah, it went up and up, but I had 2000 deductible at the end and paying about 450 a month for it....oh, and 20% co pay up to 5K in expenses.

Didn't break the bank......

Now, unless you are 'low income', you likely pay more for ObamaKare if you have a moderate income in retirement. And still big deductibles - even bigger for many....and families...wow.....


t.
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No. of Recommendations: 4
telegraph analyzes,

Now, unless you are 'low income', you likely pay more for ObamaKare if you have a moderate income in retirement. And still big deductibles - even bigger for many....and families...wow.....

</snip>


Even people with retirement portfolios well into the millions should be able to get a significant tax subsidy under Obamacare. If you're getting your Obamacare information from Fox News, you're likely leaving thousands of dollars a year on the table.

Why I'm Not Worried About Obamacare Premium Increases.
http://retireearlyhomepage.com/obamacare_2015.html

</snip>


intercst
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No. of Recommendations: 46
telegraph, you have serious reading comprehension issues. Always, of course, but especially with my post.

If all but 20 made it to the reunion

No. We FOUND all but 20 using Googlestalk and other means. About 75 made it to the reunion, including myself. About 40 were dead, only one from Vietnam.

Yes, folks die in accidents and athletes are no exception. In fact, many who were athletes (especially football) likely put on dozens if not hundreds of pounds on the 'standard American diet' of crap food, too much meat, too little veggies and fruit and 'green things'. They likely are more 'risk takers' with more dangerous hobbies and activities.

Perhaps the people who died were all fat, but based on the obit pictures, which tend to be "recent" and not "high school", the vast majority were not. One of the doctors who died at at 41 looked exceptionally fit and handsome.

And yes, some of the folks will be in wheelchairs due to accidents, some due to bad lifestyle choices.

There were several who could not make it. The one I was closest to was a casual friend who I had not talked to since high school. He was in a wheelchair with 6 brain tumors, one of which was inoperable (so they decided not to do any.) At the reunion we had each table sign "Thinking of You" cards, and mailed the to him day after day for a few weeks. He died about a month ago.

He had no "bad lifestyle choices." He was a parent. He held a job with the same company for 20 years. He restored old cars as a hobby. He liked football on TV. He was just a normal guy, and then he had brain tumors. Much as my wife's friend just suddenly discovered her tumor. It happens.

ObamaCare will likely make it possible for many people to retire. They'll be leeching off the working folks while doing it....but, heck, that is socialism.

How is that socialism any more than getting your health insurance through your employer? Some people will get sick, some won't. Are the sick people "leeching" off the others? You have a strange obsession, and not in a good way.

Low income, high subsidy. Just like Medicare. It all will come collapsing down in 20 years so enjoy it while it lasts.

Yes, like Social Security which is now 80 years old and counting. And like Norway, which started its single payer universal health care system in 1912 making it 103 years old. New Zealand, Germany, Japan, Belgium, the UK. All started before 1949. All about to come crashing down any moment, apparently, according to telegraph, who has a credibility rating of, uh, zero.
 
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No. of Recommendations: 2
gh
These are the kinds of things that happen in the real world. I hope they do not happen to you, but I wish that you would exhibit some empathy towards people who have not been so fortunate as yourself. And I would note that no matter how much you have been socking away into an HSA account, there are situations which defy your tidy situation, at least such as it has existed to this point.

Well, I'll be the 1st to admit I have a lot to learn with regards to health care post retirement, and I appreciate everyone's response. I appreciate the link you provided. I'm learning as I go and before I decide to turn in my notice, I will make sure me and DW are covered for things most likely to occur to it.

As far as showing empathy, I would disagree that supporting ACA, or even a single payer 'dream' system that the democrats would prefer, is the only way towards that end. I understand why many people would like to have a gov't controlled single payer system. I just believe it is the least efficient way to provide health care.

Even on the dreaded FIRE board, I'm in an extreme minority with regards to how I look at health care, nutrition etc... After all, how many limited gov't people do you know that eat a plant based diet? <g>


Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 3
Metal
We have lived liked this for over 20 years and because if it, have no medical problems. I don't even need glasses.


jweist
"Because of it"? You don't know this. How you live will not prevent you from getting cancer, or even having a heart condition. On average living well helps the general population, but individually anything can happen.


I went on my plant based diet at age 30. I was a sickly kid, partly due to genetics but mostly due to the fact that I had a substandard diet growing up. I suffered from both food and air born allergies. Had colds and virus' more often than my friends. As a High school athlete, I was plagued by injuries consistently. I had a brief period during my decathlon training from age 23-24 where everything went great. I was married and DW cooked many marvelous healthy meals with real veggies. But at age 25, sports injuries sidelined my Olympic dream permanently. For the next 5 years, I struggled with multiple health issues, including arthritis in my jumping leg joints and throwing arm. I was at doctor's offices on a consistent basis looking for cures to my ailments. Crap. I was not even 30. It seemed I tried just about everything.

At age 30, I met a man at work who's wife had almost died from breast cancer. She went through the normal medical route of surgery and chemo to remove 1 breast. After her ordeal, she soon got cancer in the remaining breast and decided to try something different. A mostly raw food vegan diet supplemented with raw carrot and green juices. The results were simply fantastic! She expected to die within months but instead lived another 20 years before the cancer finally caught back up with her, after she abandoned her vegan diet I might add.

By that time, I was miserable myself. Could no longer play basketball or run because of knee problems. I suffered 6 months out of the year with severe air born allergies during the fall and spring, the best times in North Texas.

So I decided to try the same diet. Went cold turkey. I went through some tough detoxing (and yes, it really does happen) for about 2 months. I'd feel good for 1 day and then lousy for another 7, or something like that during that painful summer. After the detoxing was over, I started feeling great, like I was 15 again. Before fall time came, I braced myself for the normal allergy season. To my astonishment, it was fairly mild with only some suffering after I mowed my 1 acre of grass. The next spring, I barely felt the allergies and have maintained that, sometimes not feeling anything since.

During winter time, when young athletes are thinking about playing basketball, I was hesitant to step on the court. I went to the gym one night to watch DW play racket-ball and a young black friend of mine that I used to play with asked me to join him on the court. I was reluctant at first, not wanting to embarrass myself considering basketball was my thing second only to track and field. Another astonishing, epic moment for me. I was running, jumping and even dunking again. I had my 35 inch vertical again. No knee pain. I was non-existent. It was an amazing thing to me after suffering for 5 years.

You see, things like that make a believer out of you no matter what the naysayers say.

I'm too heavy, and should exercise more, but at 52 years old I still have 20/16 vision. This is simply genetic luck, not because I like carrots.

I wore glasses between the age of 22 and 30. After I went vegan and drank 16-40 oz of carrot juice a day, my vision cleared up. I have noticed that now that I'm older, I no longer have 20/20. But I still don't need glasses unless it is dark or the print is very small.

Your confidence in your immunity seems almost teen-like...

I'll overlook that statement given you probably did not know my history, of which I briefly shared above. I'm a transparent guy. I'm not lying about this. Although, I've been told a hundred times it's too good to believe. All I can say is try it and experiment with it. I make no guarantees but everyone I know who has tried it and does not cheat get's remarkable unexpected results.

either that or you seem to think that only bad things happen to those who "deserve" it.

Scripture teaches that 'people are destroyed for lack of knowledge'. Whether you are a Christian or not, we all live by the same rules created at the beginning of time. If you live an unhealthy lifestyle, you will eventually have to pay a price. Some people are lucky or are genetically blessed. I was not. I had to change everything about me and as I said, the results were miraculous. How much God had to do with it? I don't know. But I know that avoiding certain foods and replacing them with mostly organic, raw veggies/fruits/nuts/seeds and some cooked grains made all the difference for me and was the 'knowledge' I had desperately been seeking.

I can't help but share that knowledge with others.

I hope that answers your question. I don't believe any deserves pain and suffering. Sometimes it just happens. But with regard to health issues, most of it is brought down by our own doing.

SO the last 23+ years has affected how I view modern health care, whether administered by the gov' or mainstream medicine. I can't help but believe that it's a lot of $ needlessly spent jweist. There is a better way!

Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 5
fmnh

Your daughters have drunken sex with you? (Genesis 19:30-36)


Ignoring the obvious taking of scripture out of context to suggest that doing that is 'Biblical', all I can say FMNH is that you are disgusting and the people that rec'd you should be ashamed of themselves.

If you knew the story and what happened to Lot and his descendants, it would be clear to you that the actions of Lot and his daughter's were not sanctioned or encouraged by God. But knowing you, none of that would matter, even if I spent the next 6 hours educating you about that unfortunate sinful act. You do what you can to hate on Christians. But hey, I still pray for you often FMNH. Like the apostle Paul, who persecuted Christians, even unto death, you too can be saved.

You may have your 'road to Damascus moment yet'. <g>

Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 0
intercst,

Come on my old friend! You have not replied yet to any of my posts! Or are you just sitting back and enjoying the pile on? <big grin>

Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 10
As far as showing empathy, I would disagree that supporting ACA, or even a single payer 'dream' system that the democrats would prefer, is the only way towards that end. I understand why many people would like to have a gov't controlled single payer system. I just believe it is the least efficient way to provide health care.

By all means, please offer up a reasonable alternative that doesn't punish people (like a good friend of mine who recently was "let go" while suffering debilitating back issues).

What is the superior alternative than "the least efficient way to provide health care"?
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No. of Recommendations: 18
He says he asked himself what 'party has done the most for him'? Well, a limited gov't conservative would never ask that question.

Teapublicans openly embrace willful ignorance.
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No. of Recommendations: 51
I understand why many people would like to have a gov't controlled single payer system. I just believe it is the least efficient way to provide health care.

We all believe things, but I like to at least try to base my beliefs on facts.

If we are looking at health care and efficiency, one important metric is cost, right? Okay so in the US of A, we have by far the highest cost in the world:

http://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/Briefing-Note-UNITED-STATES...

We have the highest dollar cost, and the highest cost as a percentage of GDP of any industrialized nation. And it isn't slightly higher, we pay by far health care than anybody. A lot more.

If you are looking at efficiency and see much higher costs, that should raise a red flag. But costs don't tell the whole store. You also have to look at what you are getting for the money. If we are paying more, we should also be getting better health care. But we aren't.

Healthcare outcomes are hard to measure, so one metric I like is called "mortality amenable to medical care." That is, the number of people who die from what should be treatable conditions. If people are dying from treatable conditions, then the system isn't very effective. Dying is an honest metric. Either you die from a given condition or you get better. And surviving as opposed to dying is what most people want from a health care system.

And by that measure, the USA is dead last:

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/in-the-literatu...

So if we are paying the most and having the worst outcomes...you can make a pretty good argument we have the least efficient health care system in the world, and by quite a large margin.

At some point you have to move beyond beliefs and start looking at what works and doesn't work.
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No. of Recommendations: 2
syke6
So if we are paying the most and having the worst outcomes...you can make a pretty good argument we have the least efficient health care system in the world, and by quite a large margin.

I don't believe for one minute that the current way the US health care system is the most efficient nor the most beneficial for that matter. The system is based on disease control through drugs instead of treating the root cause of the problem, which I believe can be accomplished via diet and alternative medicine in the majority of diseases. From the AMA, insurance companies, pharmaceuticals and increasingly now, the government. They all say what you can and cannot do for health care and unfortunately, correcting problems with diet and lifestyle is not on there agenda because there is no $ in it for them.

Consider this, how many diseases like heart, cancer and diabetics are cured by drugs? None. Drugs mask pain, cause massive side effects and hide problems only to return for another day. Our entire system is based on drugs and the amount of $ spent is staggering.

S0 without going into it much more, suffice it to say I have my problems with the way American health care is delivered. There is a lot of control. If you use alternative medicine, you will not be reimbursed by your insurance company. Life giving, healing super food supplements are not covered. Only drugs are paid for. The AMA and drug companies, with there unholy union with insurance companies and the government, have us all brainwashed into believing the all-mighty drug is the answer to life's medical problems.

At some point you have to move beyond beliefs and start looking at what works and doesn't work.

We can debate all day about gov't involvement in the health care system. What will most likely happen in the near future as the US will adopt a single payer system. But it will be twice as expensive as European systems because most of them at least believe in attacking the root causes of disease instead of throwing drugs at it.

I can just imagine how things will end up evolving here in America where we worship at the altar of the AMA and drug companies. It will be like some sci-fi dystopia where corporate America and gov't create this massive behemoth singer payer system where if you or your child does not get injected with their prescribed drug of the moment, you will get incarcerated because the 'all knowing, all seeing' benevolent gov't always has your best intentions at heart.

There will be no freedom to choose. Pre ACA, we had freedom to not participate. Now we are forced to under penalty. Future versions will be more and more restrictive and there will be less freedom. People like me who have found the answer to the root causes of disease will still be forced to pay for the indulgences of others, like the man in the video of the initial post.

Metal
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By all means, please offer up a reasonable alternative that doesn't punish people (like a good friend of mine who recently was "let go" while suffering debilitating back issues).

What is the superior alternative than "the least efficient way to provide health care"?


I know exactly what I would do if I had the problem of your friend. In fact, I did suffer from low back pain caused from injuries during my track and field days. On my 6'5" frame, I carry more weight than most and my low back problems were debilitating to a degree.

I would tell your friend to try exactly what I did with nutrition and avoidance of key foods that inhibit healing. I would also recommend a natural chiropractor that supports a natural healing approach.

The problem has been long gone, even though I live on 2 acres, work my own organic garden, mow my own lawn, trim my own trees, trim my own hedges, maintain my own pool etc.. I'm 53 and do the following work out program: www.freeletics.com. Not for the faint of heart. But my dietary plan makes it possible. No AMA doctor to oversee me or gov't administrator.

But I have to ask, how would the ACA or even a single payer system magically fix your friend's problems? All an AMA approved doctor can do us pump him full of drugs and cut into his spine, costing tens of thousands of $ before they are done. More than likely, giving him temporary relief before pain and problems return.

I had a co-worker that was in and out of hospitals his entire life for spinal/neck problems that he blamed on genetics. Yet, he refused to change his diet/lifestyle patterns. He finally retired last year at age 67 but he looked older than my 91 year old grandma. I talked to his wife recently and he is suffering from early signs of dementia and going through the same old pattern of weekly doctor visits and hospital stays. Still over-weight because he won't make changes to his eating habits. Won't exercise. It's just sad.

Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 10
jwiest
Your confidence in your immunity seems almost teen-like...either that or you seem to think that only bad things happen to those who "deserve" it.

BTW jwiest, I never said I was immune. Like I said, I'll have some form of high deductible insurance (like I do now) and a nice HSA balance from the moment I retire until I turn 65. At 65, I'll probably do Medicare part A only but I'll wait until I'm there before I make that decision.

I must say, it is really difficult having an honest discussion with most people on these liberal dominated Motley Fool boards. People seem more interested in scoring 'leftwing' points by throwing verbal darts than trying to understand one another. As of this morning, 23 people rec'd FMNH's awful comment to me about incest with my daughter's.

Pathetic.

Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 7
What is the superior alternative than "the least efficient way to provide health care"?
------------------------------
I know exactly what I would do if I had the problem of your friend. In fact, I did suffer from low back pain caused from injuries during my track and field days. On my 6'5" frame, I carry more weight than most and my low back problems were debilitating to a degree.

I would tell your friend to try exactly what I did with nutrition and avoidance of key foods that inhibit healing. I would also recommend a natural chiropractor that supports a natural healing approach.

==================================

I can see where you would think that answers the question, but it really doesn't.

The question was really how was he to be able to buy affordable health insurance.

Before he would have had his employer insurance, after laid off, with a previously existing condition it's unlikely he would be able to get any.

At least now he can still get insurance.

So....

What is the superior alternative than "the least efficient way to provide health care"?
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Jeanwa
I can see where you would think that answers the question, but it really doesn't.

The question was really how was he to be able to buy affordable health insurance.

Before he would have had his employer insurance, after laid off, with a previously existing condition it's unlikely he would be able to get any.

At least now he can still get insurance.

So....

What is the superior alternative than "the least efficient way to provide health care"?


I answered the question do to my own philosophy of life and what I would do, knowing what I do, after going through my own series of health issues and achieving victory over them.

Obviously, I don't think like most other people. I believe people can find solutions to their problems without succumbing to what society tells them they must do, by spending thousands of dollars and submitting to the will and control of the government and the medical, insurance and drug industries.

After spending a fair amount of $ going to docs and having procedures done myself, I finally said enough! There is no way the good Lord intended us to live in pain and suffering on this planet and I prayed for a solution. Through a series of people and events, I discovered the secret, at least for me. But in all honesty, millions of other people have done the same thing as well.

You would think with all the 'progressives' dominating the fool, you would have a few that would engage me in honest discussion about solutions to medical issues outside of the system we have now, with regard to revolutionary diet/alternative medicine that can release you from the stranglehold that the American health care system has on us.

All I hear is that adding gov't control to what we already have will fix everything.

Even more puzzling and disturbing is why so many people look for solutions to their problems outside of themselves. Drugs, please fix me. More federal gov't, please fix me. Doctor, doctor give me another pill so I won't feel the pain.

Metal
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As of this morning, 23 people rec'd FMNH's awful comment to me about incest with my daughter's.

28 ;-0

It's Sunday. Time for bible porn!

There is no doubt what Lot's daughters were up to.

Of course you could always blame the veil: "My daughter in law????Dude, I thought she was a hooker!"
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No. of Recommendations: 3
What is the superior alternative than "the least efficient way to provide health care"?


How about "direct pay" with expanded HSA's for routine medical, an emphasis on major medical insurance bought in a (more competitive) nationwide market for insurance for starters (instead of isolated state by state markets)?

There would gaps around the margins to address with Medicare-ish programs, but a significant majority of people would have their medical needs addressed at lower cost and less frictional losses from .gov overhead.




...and as for the nastiness of the Lot comment and rec's given. I weep for what once was the Fool community.
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Sano...


"Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" Joseph Nye Welch
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There is no way the good Lord intended us to live in pain and suffering on this planet and I prayed for a solution.

If one can relieve back pain with physical therapy, then the injury was one that could be addressed with physical therapy.

If one is seriously injured, one could pray the rest of one's life and nothing short of surgery would prevent you from hobbling through life like some goat-herder in Uzbekistan. That's the natural, 'good lords' way.

I blew out a disk hauling a very fat women out of the ocean. CT scans don't lie. The protrusion of goop that blows out the side of a disc and compresses a nerve can't be prayed or PT'd back into the disc. I'd have lived the rest of my life hobbling along with sciatic pain and a numb foot like those goat herders in the 'stans.

Fortunately Medtronic scientists invented a fabulous micro-endocscopic tool kit, trained neurosurgeons to use it on Kentucky pigs, and finally, on my spine.

My insurance covered the high 5 figure cost of the micro-endoscopic operation.

Even more puzzling and disturbing is why so many people look for solutions to their problems outside of themselves.

Oh pish posh. You notice a lump in your armpit one morning while showering. You have choices; 1) ignore it 2) pray that it goes away 3) see a physician about having it biopsied (and you better have insurance because if it's lymphoma, either the cost or the lymphoma will eat you alive).
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>>>>What is the superior alternative than "the least efficient way to provide health care"?

****I answered the question do to my own philosophy of life and what I would do, knowing what I do, after going through my own series of health issues and achieving victory over them.



Metal,

My guess is that the number of people who believe so deeply, and embrace the lifestyle so fully, the philosophy you describe, is an extreme minority. So for everyone else, we need something better than what we have today

I do believe we would collectively benefit in moving towards the lifestyle you describe, but wouldn't make that my health insurance replacement.


I think that "for-profit healthcare" has too high of an inherent conflict of interest.

Our country would benefit health-wise if basic healthcare were to become a service instead of a profit center. Similar to the way police and fire departments (generally) are services.

Let the for-profit entities handle the supplemental policies.


Jim
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It is important to not make over broad statements like:

"Consider this, how many diseases like heart, cancer and DIABETICS are cured by drugs. None. "

That is simply not true. There is a growing list of cancers which can be cured" http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancers-in-gene....

As far as Type 1 diabetes, this has nothing to do with lifestyle or "root cause", and with insulin the life span that can be added to those who suffer from it can be 50 or 60 years or more. All from drugs! How do you define cure.

As far as vaccinating children go, fine, don't vaccinate your children. That is your choice. But then don't expect other parents to accept your child in the MDs waiting room, the playgrounds, or the schools where those too young to be vaccinated might be.

Now I don't mean to suggest people shouldn't strive to be healthy and I congratulate you on attaining the good health you have, but speaking about root causes, by the time you get to about 110, if you are still alive, the root cause of your death will be, .. that you are still alive.
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No. of Recommendations: 5
Sano... "Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

I have a 9'6" concave. It's decent with a light offshore.

With the south wind blowing this a.m., I'm sensing a 10'6" would be more decent.

Naw, when people start tossing 'biblical' to real world problems, especially retirement healthcare and financial problems, it's time for reality checks and perhaps, humor... and I cannot help it if there's a plethora of hysterical stuff in Bibles, Torah, Koran.

Mark Twain" <The Bible> is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
- Letters from the Earth
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No. of Recommendations: 29
Metal,

As an aside, some of my circles of friends are very much into natural, holistic, alternative medicine etc. ways of living their lives. Some of the things they believe make my eye roll out of my head. The will dismiss the science of modern healthcare on one hand while defending the science of their bizarre beliefs on the other hand because they 'did the research' and read about it on the internet.


A similarly inclined friend of mine was diagnosed with cancer an spent at least the last year pursuing alternative treatments (including raw vegan). The cancer has now spread throughout her body, the lymph nodes are swollen and she's just now consenting to visit a cancer facility for treatment.

This upsets me on a certain level, friends who, to their detriment, dismiss "mainstream" medical science while embracing "read it on the internet" medical science.

There's a time and place for everything. Figuring out the when & where is the tricky part.


Jim
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sano
Oh pish posh. You notice a lump in your armpit one morning while showering. You have choices; 1) ignore it 2) pray that it goes away 3) see a physician about having it biopsied (and you better have insurance because if it's lymphoma, either the cost or the lymphoma will eat you alive).

Option 4.

Go on a raw carrot/veggie juice fast for 7 days. After that, eat a vegan diet that is 85% raw/15% cooked. In a few months, it will be gone.

No doctor visits, no money spent. Probably money saved because you stopped buying all the refined/processed foods that caused the problem in the 1st place.

Metal
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A similarly inclined friend of mine was diagnosed with cancer an spent at least the last year pursuing alternative treatments (including raw vegan). The cancer has now spread throughout her body, the lymph nodes are swollen and she's just now consenting to visit a cancer facility for treatment.

This upsets me on a certain level, friends who, to their detriment, dismiss "mainstream" medical science while embracing "read it on the internet" medical science.

There's a time and place for everything. Figuring out the when & where is the tricky part.


Jim


For every person like your friend above, there are 1 thousand that spent 100's of thousands of $ on surgery, chemo and radiation and died anyway.

I appreciate your thoughtful reply Jim. It's a welcome reprieve.

I fully understand this is a sensitive area and each person should make the decision themselves as to what treatment they decide to go for.

But adding the gov't as the controlling entity scares the hell out of me. ACA may have given cheap health care to some, but it has moved us closer to a system of restriction and control, where health care is doled out and dictated by the few in charge. I have been negatively affected myself, seeing my company insurance rats up about 30% in the past 2 years with deductibles doubling. I can afford it, so I don't complain. But you should see people in my office who live paycheck to paycheck. They screamed bloody murder last year when they doubled the deductibles.

I'm all about freedom. The freedom to chose your own path in life regardless of where the path leads, as long as you don't trample others during your journey. ACA is one more stop in a century long struggle of giving the federal gov't more power while reducing the freedom of American citizens.

It's not just gov't power either. THat is not even the root problem. The problem resides with given too much power to any organizational unit, without checks and balances. I call it the 'Billy Budd' syndrome. I read the short story in college and a light bulb went on. It's not religion that is evil (who at the time I truly believed), nor corporations, nor government. It's when those units are given unrestricted controlling power that causes the root problem. That's when an organization that was created to 'serve' becomes an entity that is to be 'served'.

We've seen that power destroy people countless times via authoritarian governments throughout history and still do in communist countries today. We saw it in the Roman Catholic church that created 1000 years of misery and restricted human advancement. We saw it during the industrial revolution when companies had life and death power over labor.

I understand the want of people, who feel they have no other choice, to plea to the gov't to pay for their medical problems. But people don't realize what they are asking for is impossible to pay for and will ultimately reduce the level of health care they get now, even though expensive. ACA is nothing more than a plan that is sucking resources from the middle class and giving it to the poor and lower middle class. And as intercst post's on his website, retire early millionaires can get subsidies as well. How that is a good thing is beyond me.

I believe there are free market solutions, combined with a healthy lifestyle that would make health care affordable again. HSA's are a step in the right direction to put decisions and power in people's hands. But apparently, more needs to be done with regards to educating people. I would have thought of all people, on a progressive message board, that people would be more open to the fact that diet really does matter. It matters a lot. It matters so much that our society could be revolutionized.

But instead, you are the 1st to show some level of respect JIm. The rest would rather insult me and rec FMNH's remark about incest with my daughter's, and FMNH knows I have 2 daughter's, that is why he chose that particular Bible verse.

Metal
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jakalant
As far as Type 1 diabetes, this has nothing to do with lifestyle or "root cause", and with insulin the life span that can be added to those who suffer from it can be 50 or 60 years or more. All from drugs! How do you define cure.

I agree that I should not have been so 'general'. In the diabetes case I mentioned, going on a plant based diet almost always illiminates the need for insulin for Type II diabetes sufferers from the research I've done. Type 1, not so much. However, Type 1 sufferers that went on a restricted, mostly raw food plant based diet saw a reduced need for insulin injections and benefited with a much healthier life. I don't have a link, but there is a still a tremendous benefit to them form what I recall.

I've read numerous testimonies of Type II sufferers that went vegan, eliminated refined foods and dairy, and feel amazing now. They are so grateful someone gave them information that a plant based diet can return their lives back to them. I once tried to talk a diabetic woman at work into trying at least partially, to eliminate bad foods and replace with raw veggies. SHe was obese and her soft drinks, candies, processed meats were too important to her. She eventually went on permanent medical disability and later had a foot removed. Very sad and preventable.

Metal
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MetalDecathlete:

how many diseases like heart, cancer and diabetics are cured by drugs? None....hide problems only to return for another day.

This next sentence will probably turn your stomach:

Millions of us, including DW and me, are grateful to the medical for discovering drugs that allow us to MANAGE an illness.

I know my Type 2 diabetes may not be cured in the years I have left (I'm 69). Since 2010, I've (only) been taking 4 pills a day. My numbers are wonderful compared to my horrible 2010 numbers of 251 blood glucose and 8.9 A1C. I'm managing also with biking, walking, and a 50-lb. weight loss. I'm more than content that I'm not on injections. I'm "managing" with orals and I'll take it. Big-time.

DW underwent a year's chemo/radiation for lymphoma in 2013-14. It robbed her of her beloved hobby of underwater cave-diving while she was totally zapped. One of the things that helped "un-zap" her was a monthly shot of Neulasta that raised her white blood cell count. The cost? $15K per injection. Thanks to her drugs, 2 followup PET scans and an MRI showed total remission. Doctors told her to have at it. While we lived in our FL home from last Nov. thru March, she dived caves 4 times....happiest she's been for a long time at 67.

Could we worsen as we get older? Of course. I could develop one or more of the myriad complications of diabetes, and she will continue periodic testing as the oncologist could not guarantee total freedom from Hodgkin's. In the meantime, we'll take what "management" will give us and be damn glad about it.

People like me who have found the answer to the root causes of disease....

An exemplary diet, your beloved supplements, and an active physical lifestyle may continue to stand you in good stead. None of those ward off pure bad luck.
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For every person like your friend above, there are 1 thousand that spent 100's of thousands of $ on surgery, chemo and radiation and died anyway.

I appreciate your thoughtful reply Jim. It's a welcome reprieve.


It was a thoughtful reply and, with all due respect, deserves more than more BS in response (even if the BS is sincerely held conviction)

I fully understand this is a sensitive area and each person should make the decision themselves as to what treatment they decide to go for.

NO!

Unless you don't care and WANT to die, when you experience any symptoms of a heart attack or stroke, or notice strange lumps, for crissakes, don't play doctor with yourself. Get help while there is still time to minimize long term damage.

Living a healthy lifestyle is wonderful and it's certainly the good way to be, but there are scads of "alt med" scams out there that lie and prey upon scared desperate sick people. It's disgraceful. Sure, there are a very few cancers that have gone into remission on their own, but it's very very rare. Most 'happy outcomes' attributed to "nutrition and alt med care ' are bogus misdiagnosis from the start. Don't fall for their BS. Look.... even if you believe in a God, you have to believe that it made doctors and scientists for a good reason.

Good nutrition, exercise and maintaining a healthy weight is essential to a healthy retirement (especially you diabetic types), but there's no better way to blow ones retirement than to get sucked into some "alt.med" scam for a critical healthcare issue. Alt.med writers are among the very best liars on the internet.
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No. of Recommendations: 8
NozRydr analyzes,

How about "direct pay" with expanded HSA's for routine medical, an emphasis on major medical insurance bought in a (more competitive) nationwide market for insurance for starters (instead of isolated state by state markets)?

There would gaps around the margins to address with Medicare-ish programs, but a significant majority of people would have their medical needs addressed at lower cost and less frictional losses from .gov overhead.

</snip>


Here are the "friction losses" (i.e., portion of premiums collected/program costs lost to administrative expenses, overhead and profit) for various insurance plans.

Individual health insurance policy -- pre-Obamacare -- 30% to 40%

Individual health insurance policy -- Obamacare -- limited by Federal law to 20%

Business health insurance policy -- Obamacare -- limited by Federal law to 15%

Medicare Prescription Drug program run by for-profit insurers - 13%

Medicare Advantage program run by for-profit insurers - 12%

Fee-for-service Medicare/Medicaid run by Federal Govt -1.5%


Where did you say those friction losses were?

intercst
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she will continue periodic testing as the oncologist could not guarantee total freedom from Hodgkin's.

If it was Hodgkins, it was very possibly cured. If it was non-hodgkins, well, it's manageable as a chronic condition. Both. left untreated, are surely fatal.

My dermatologist got Follicular lymphoma when he was 65. He was always the very image of health: thin, good nutrition, great cardio program...He chose the biggest "gun" of all the treatments' a bone marrow transplant (approx. $250,000) I visited him this week and he looks great at 70, is enjoying a CR (complete remission), works 5 days a week and takes long hikes with his family in the Sierras.

Without treatment he'd be dead. No.doubt.about.it.
Without insurance, he'd be, well, $250,000. less wealthy.
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If it was Hodgkins, it was very possibly cured. If it was non-hodgkins, well, it's manageable as a chronic condition.....My dermatologist got Follicular lymphoma

Clarification: lymphomas are most common amongst people over 50.

In the Hodgkins category, Hodgkins is often curable. In the non-hodgkins category, they are considered incurable but treatable.

Managing a chronic condition like follicular non-hodgkins lymphoma ain't cheap, but I know a lot of people who are enjoying a good quality of retired life while 'managing' lymphoma. It's totally do-able if you have insurance or an awful lot of money.

Grim topic for a retirement board, but there it is. If you haven't got good healthcare coverage, it really is grim.
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BTW jwiest, I never said I was immune.

My apologies then, I misread...and I confess didn't read the whole thread. Based on the comment I quoted, I thought you were treating your lifestyle as an insurance policy. I have no doubt it works for you improving your life, but it's not insurance, as you noted.

People seem more interested in scoring 'leftwing' points by throwing verbal darts than trying to understand one another.

It's better not to count the recs as a measure of quality discussion. The posts I feel best about hardly get any. Besides, the point-scoring is hardly limited to the "leftwing".

As of this morning, 23 people rec'd FMNH's awful comment to me about incest with my daughter's.

I didn't take it that way, more a commentary on how arbitrary claiming to live "biblically" can be. Plus, if one thinks they're living "biblically", according to a limited interpretation that ignores many other biblical strictures, and their interpretation happens to work for them, the danger, as we see so often, is a rise in sanctimony and self-righteousness. People become convinced their answer is the answer for everyone, and then they think "god" is on their side.

I'm seeing shades of that here...
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Yes Type 1 and type 2 diabetes are two different diseases. There are diseases that can be . Because of our successful economy and the increased duration of life from many advances in medicine we have considerably more time to develop the diseases you refer to which can attributed to poor diet and lifestyle choices.

Thanks OBAMA!

The benefits of healthy diet and lifestyle choices can indeed be significant, but they can be overstated.

I recommend "The Emperor of Maladies" which gives a great history of the fight against Cancer.
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Even more puzzling and disturbing is why so many people look for solutions to their problems outside of themselves.

Isn't that what you do with God?
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jwiest
I didn't take it that way, more a commentary on how arbitrary claiming to live "biblically" can be. Plus, if one thinks they're living "biblically", according to a limited interpretation that ignores many other biblical strictures, and their interpretation happens to work for them, the danger, as we see so often, is a rise in sanctimony and self-righteousness. People become convinced their answer is the answer for everyone, and then they think "god" is on their side.

I'm seeing shades of that here...


I was not really trying to interject my Christian beliefs towards others in this thread. You have to understand that my faith in Jesus Christ is the most important aspect of my life. Therefore, I don't always catch myself when talking about things to others on a secular board. Below is is the part that I said that got it all started with FMNH and his potshot at me, of which he does all the time at RECF where he trolls and just looks for trouble. Anyway, I only mentioned a Biblical lifestyle because as defined by Christian Health Ministries insurance web site, my wife and I would qualify. I was not saying my diet/exercise lifestyle is Biblical at all, but that seemed to be what many inferenced on this thread set it up as a straw man to beat down.

This is what I plan on using. Since we are Christians and follow a Biblically based lifestyle, we should have no problem with qualifications. If for some reason we are rejected, which seems highly doubtful, I will go research for high deductible plans geared towards healthy people. At one time, there were plans geared to vegans/healthy people, which both DW and I fit the bill.


Metal
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BoredPerson
Isn't that what you do with God?

Absolutely and I don't deny it at all. The big difference is I don't support a federal government, politicians or programs that want to force other people to depend on anything they don't want to.

Sorry I was not clear about that.

Modern humanistic/secular/materialistic progressivism is all about creating a controlled society where everyone serves the state and freedom is extremely limited.

I know you guys won't like this example but look where gay marriage has now taken us. At the beginning, even though I had misgivings about the morality of gay marriage, I thought to myself....let them. It's no skin off my teeth. I'm not into forcing anyone into believing like I do. Most Christians are not.

But now that it's legal in most states and growing in popularity, the militant left and militant gay community are using it as a hammer to force Christians to support it with threats of lawsuits in order to bankrupt them. We are hearing of cries that now that it is the law of the land, throw them in jail. Here we are in America, the land of the free and brave, yet Christians are being threatened with jail time for refusing to participate in a gay marriage. How weird is that? If that does not bother any of you, then suffice it to say you truly do have a problem and it's clear to me you are on the dark side and simply want Christians to be removed from Earth.

Metal
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No. of Recommendations: 28
If that does not bother any of you, then suffice it to say you truly do have a problem and it's clear to me you are on the dark side and simply want Christians to be removed from Earth.

Is Leaping to Bizarre Conclusions part of the decathalon? If it is, you've got the gold medal sewn up!
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syke
Is Leaping to Bizarre Conclusions part of the decathalon? If it is, you've got the gold medal sewn up!

I have to admit syke6, I found that funny. Nicely done.

Metal
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Even more puzzling and disturbing is why so many people look for solutions to their problems outside of themselves. Drugs, please fix me. More federal gov't, please fix me. Doctor, doctor give me another pill so I won't feel the pain.

In general, this doesn't seem puzzling or disturbing. People are attaracted to pills, doctors, scientific medicine, etc., because they work. (The thing I myself find puzzling is the idea that more fedaeral government will "fix me." What is the condition or problem that I am supposed to have that will get fixed by the right amount of federal government?)

Why things like "Doctors Without Borders" are so effective -- even in societies with radically different politics, different economic systems, different religious traditions, etc. -- is their rootedness in scientific medicine.

If you have appendicitis, for example, your problem doesn't seem to be one of living in a society with too little or too much federal government. The problem seems to be one that can best be addressed through modern scientific medicine.

culcha
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If you use alternative medicine, you will not be reimbursed by your insurance company.
That's just not true for everyone. Our insurance, for instance, covers acupuncture and pays out regularly to a naturopath.

There will be no freedom to choose. Pre ACA, we had freedom to not participate. Now we are forced to under penalty. Future versions will be more and more restrictive and there will be less freedom. People like me who have found the answer to the root causes of disease will still be forced to pay for the indulgences of others, like the man in the video of the initial post.

I'm glad you've found "the answer to the root causes of disease", but it doesn't change actual facts. Whether or not a plant-based diet is the panacea you claim, or big pharma is only in it for the money is a topic for another thread.

I can, however, say this: your diet and/or lifestyle won't necessarily protect you from accident or catastrophic illness. Everyone could eat like you and engage in all sorts of risky behaviors, from sky-diving to scuba-diving. Should we just tell everyone to eat like you do, not engage in any risky activities, and just stay at home as much as possible to minimize risk of disease and/or injury, or should we face reality and do our best to educate people about the relative risk/benefit of certain diets or behaviors, while making sure that we have affordable and effective treatments available to those who might not be so fortunate to have learned the answers that you have?

Speck
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I have a 9'6" concave. It's decent with a light offshore.

With the south wind blowing this a.m., I'm sensing a 10'6" would be more decent.



and yet, such short board sort of attitude. Missing some aloha bra'. Maybe some time on my 11' Munoz would help.
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Where did you say those friction losses were?

intercst



all those overlook direct pay.

To wit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGZaRnC1wNg
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No. of Recommendations: 26
MetalDecathlete: "I know you guys won't like this example but look where gay marriage has now taken us. At the beginning, even though I had misgivings about the morality of gay marriage, I thought to myself....let them. It's no skin off my teeth. I'm not into forcing anyone into believing like I do. Most Christians are not."

Good so far.

"But now that it's legal in most states and growing in popularity, the militant left and militant gay community are using it as a hammer to force Christians to support it with threats of lawsuits in order to bankrupt them."

Please elaborate?

"We are hearing of cries that now that it is the law of the land, throw them in jail."<?I>

Where, specifically, other than in the land of Fox news and its echo chambers?

"Here we are in America, the land of the free and brave, yet Christians are being threatened with jail time for refusing to participate in a gay marriage."

Define participate, please. The two people getting married, and the person parrying them are participating in the wedding. The reception is not the wedding. Baking a cake for the reception, or arranging flowers for the wedding venue or reception venue is not, in my opinion, participating in the wedding.

Are you familiar with the Piggie Park USSC case? It might interest you.

"The plaintiffs argued that Piggie Park's exclusion of African-Americans constituted a violation of Title II. The defendant Bessinger denied the discrimination, denied that the restaurants were public accommodations in the meaning of the Act (as did not, in his view, involve interstate commerce), and argued that the Civil Rights Act violated his freedom of religion as "his religious beliefs compel him to oppose any integration of the races whatever."[7]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newman_v._Piggie_Park_Enterpris....

"Defendant Bessinger further contends that the Act violates his freedom of religion under the First Amendment "since his religious beliefs compel him to oppose any integration of the races whatever.""

http://leagle.com/decision/19661197256FSupp941_11032.xml/NEW....

Please explain how Bessinger's claim of freedom of religion is different from the one you appear to be claiming?

Or if not, then can I assume that racial segregation in the name of religious liberty is also something you would support?

There were many people that believed the same as Bessinger in the USA in the 1950s and 1960s, and apartheid in South Africa was also relgiousl supported.

Bible passages used to support apartheid"

When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the
sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children
of Israel.
- Deuteronomy 32:8 (The Canticle of Moses)

And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren
without.... done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants
shall he be unto his brethren.
- Genesis 9:21-25 (The Curse of Ham)

So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of the earth.
- Genesis 11:8 (The Tower of Babel narrative)

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/45241/...

I fail to see the difference between discrimination along racial lines versus discrimination along sexual orientation lines. II have also suggest that the decision of the l/g marriage cases will follow the lines of the Loving v. Virginia USSC case, decided in 1967, for much the same reasons.

Regards, JAFO
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No. of Recommendations: 37
MetalDecathlete: "Pre ACA, we had freedom to not participate. Now we are forced to under penalty."

Pre- as well as post-ACA, you were participating in the health care marketplace. There was absolutely no time that you were not participating. It may have been in a different form, but you were most definitely participating. That's because, on any given day, something could happen that would cause you to seek medical care. The earthquake in Nepal is a terrible example of this. What the ACA tries to do is ensure that everyone is participating in the same form (via medical insurance of some sort). Those without insurance still get treated, and those costs have to go somewhere. If your "freedom not to participate" meant you made me pay the costs of having your freedom, that's not fair either, is it? The ACA tries to ensure that everyone has the backstop of an insurer so that the claims incurred will be paid for and not entirely thrust upon others who have the means to pay. You can say the ACA doesn't do a good job of that, or that there are better ways to accomplish that. Alternatively, you could put forth the option that only people who can pay for the services (themselves, or through insurance) get those services, that would also be at least a consistent approach. Without that, when it comes to things like medical services, everyone has been and will be participating.

"People like me who have found the answer to the root causes of disease will still be forced to pay for the indulgences of others, like the man in the video of the initial post."

Wow. Really? "People like me..." and "...found the answer...."?? You seriously believe that? I'm glad you think that the diet and exercise regimen you follow will protect you from maladies. Those things can definitely help, for sure. But if you indeed found the answer, you would not be posting on an internet message board about it, you'd be on the cover of Time and everyone in the world would know your name because your "answer" has brought an end to all the medical suffering in the world.

Hate to break it to you, but there is no "answer". With growing evidence about genetic links to cancer (e.g., BRCA1), other diseases (e.g., Huntington's disease), as well as environmental dangers like resistant bacteria (watch the Frontline shows on that topic for a good overview), it's clear that, in some cases, all the diet and exercise in the world isn't going to change your DNA or otherwise provide actual protection and therefore isn't going to change your risk for developing a disease or preventing early death. Even super healthy people die early (Jim Fixx dies from a heart attack at 52; Lou Gehrig gets ALS and dies far too soon). The answer? We could only hope for such an answer.

I wish you nothing but good health, and hope you truly enjoy your exercise regimen and food choices, I really do. Glad you think what you're doing is working for you. You should be doing those things because it allows you to live a fulfilling life and do the things you want to do (hike up to Machu Picchu, play with your kids/grandkids, enjoy the social camaraderie of a biking/tennis/golf league, feel good and energetic and look good in your clothes, whatever).

In my experience, good diet and exercise habits are like putting your seatbelt on each time you get into your car: it can help protect you if something happens and may make it easier for you to endure or survive what happens, but it can't prevent whether something happens, and all the precautions you take may not matter at all in the end.

MotleyFooley
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Metaldecathlete: "People like me who have found the answer to the root causes of disease will still be forced to pay for the indulgences of others, like the man in the video of the initial post."

Motleyfooley: "Wow. Really? "People like me..." and "...found the answer...."?? You seriously believe that?"

Metaldecathlete, and millions of conservatives like him, believe exactly that.

Although their versions of THE ANSWER vary, tens of millions of American conservatives fervently believe that they have found THE ANSWER to having a happy and successful life.

They further believe that they are being forced to participate in Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and unemployment benefits that they will never need and which will go to worthless, lazy slugs who have not found their answer which is THE answer.

And most of them, numbering in the tens of millions, if not more, and their families and friends, DO need and use the social safety net at differing times in their lives.

In nearly every case they see their own situation as some sort of fluke when they do need it.

It's a form of self delusion that continues to shock me even after witnessing it day in and day out here at tmf for nearly 17 years.
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Modern humanistic/secular/materialistic progressivism is all about creating a controlled society where everyone serves the state and freedom is extremely limited.

Actually, you owe all your freedoms to that humanistic/secular/materialistic progressivism. The religious have fought tooth and nail to avoid giving up their social dominance and have been THE force of oppression for millennia.

But now that it's legal in most states and growing in popularity, the militant left and militant gay community are using it as a hammer to force Christians to support it with threats of lawsuits in order to bankrupt them.

I can't tell whether you're willfully lying, or gullibly listening to serial liars. Christians are a dominant force in the country, making up 80% of the population. You aren't being forced to do anything other than acknowledge that other people who don't share your beliefs have rights too. For some people, for the self-righteous who think their "god" favours them, that's too much to give. You might not be one of those, but you're listening to them. They'll invent stories about being persecuted, and it resonates, because...

...that persecution complex is ingrained in Christianity. It's central to its foundation, and is designed to sustain mindless faith in the face of any adversity. Maybe this worked for them when Christians were a persecuted minority struggling in the Roman times, but when you've run Western history for 1500+ years, and still make up 80% of the population, that persecution complex starts to look rather pathetic, don't you think?
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Here we are in America, the land of the free and brave, yet Christians are being threatened with jail time for refusing to participate in a gay marriage.

You know, the more I think about the persecution complex you've succumbed to, the more disgusted I am. You want real persecution? Check this out:

http://www.earthworksaction.org/earthblog/detail/update_peru...

A woman in Peru won't give up her land to a gold mining company, American-owned Newmont, so off-duty police officers are being hired by the mining company to harass her, physically abuse her, and destroy her property.

Under Peruvian law, police officers are allowed to work for other companies when off-duty. As a result, Máxima and other farmers have been harassed by police officers protecting the interests of Newmont rather than Peruvian citizens. But Newmont is ultimately responsible for sendng police officers to invade Máxima 's home and and continuing to make claims of ownership of her land after the court decision.

Most of the planet suffers from this kind of power abuse. Meanwhile, decadent and delusional American "Christians", coddled by years of progressive policy and rights they aren't even aware enough to be grateful for, think they're going to be forced to participate in gay marriage. The mind boggles.
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No. of Recommendations: 79
What is the condition or problem that I am supposed to have that will get fixed by the right amount of federal government?)

Not to put too fine a point on it, but: polio. The vaccine was developed by Salk at a university supported by federal research grants. The vaccine became widely available because the federal government paid to have millions of doses cultured and distributed for free to all Americans. Polio, one of the most feared diseases of the 20th century, disappeared virtually overnight.

And while we're at it, ebola. While there are tens of thousands of cases of ebola in Western Africa where there is no effective "federal government" to deal with it, here in the US there have been a grand total of "four" cases, resulting in "one" death. The number would have been less than "four" if "federal government" safety protocols had been scrupulously followed, but they weren't until the CDC and other agencies made it a priority to set up specialized hospitals and extract patients from ill equipped and careless ones, and institute rigor in the others.

And say, have you heard of measles? Yes? How about John Enders? No? He worked at Boston's Children's Hospital and developed the first protocols which led to a measles vaccine, still the most widely used variant today. Those protocols also formed the basis for Jonas Salk and other vaccine developers in later years. (Enders won the Nobel Prize, but hardly anyone knows the name.) And by now perhaps you have guessed that the research labs at Children's Hospital is partially funded with federal research grants, yes?

OK, just one more. Penicillin. Rather famously invented in 1928 by Alexander Fleming in 1928 at St. Mary's Hospital in Britain, subject of one research paper, widely ignored. Nobody cared much until the outbreak of World War II, and then Britain was too busy to bother. Commercial developers had no luck figuring a way to mass produce the stuff (since you can't very well take petri dishes out onto the battlefield), and it was up to the Rockefeller Foundation and the US Department of Agriculture (Peoria Research Labs) to eventually find a way to increase the yield from "interesting lab phenomenon" to "widely available antibiotic." (It was industry which took these discoveries and churned out the product, but without that frightful "federal government" there would have been nothing to produce, see?)

I could go on, almost endlessly actually. By 1920 only 13 human pathogens had been isolated. By 1960 the number was over 70. Much of that progress was due directly or indirectly to the involvement of government at one stage or another. The polio vaccine alone is estimated to have saved over 100 million lives.

You may notice that each of the four examples is different. "Polio" involves mass distribution to the population of a vaccine. "Ebola" was about coordination of special facilities and procedures. "Measles" was about basic research and development of protocols. And "penicillin" required the dreaded heavy hand of government to help get a product out of the lab where it languished for over a decade and into production. See?

Now none of these may be specifically tied to the ACA, but then each of them has probably been specifically tied to your life - and if in 1920 people had sat around saying "Oh, we don't want the government involved in health care" then likely your life and your family's life would have been far different. So loosen up a little. Try something new. Open horizons. And when your friends around the Campfire ask "What is the condition or problem that I am supposed to have that will get fixed by the right amount of federal government?" now you will have an answer for them, OK?
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"Here we are in America, the land of the free and brave, yet Christians are being threatened with jail time for refusing to participate in a gay marriage."

"You know, the more I think about the persecution complex you've succumbed to, the more disgusted I am."

Bingo. It's one thing to insist on discriminating against people just because they are gay, or because they practice a different religion, or they are of another race, or whatever.

It is quite another to claim that they are being persecuted just because they are being prohibited from persecuting others.
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Polio, ebola, measles - you won't catch if you drink some green Vegan juice.

Penicillin - you don't need since green Vegan juice works just as well
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I'm not sure I want to drink a vegan's juices no matter the age.
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and yet, such short board sort of attitude. Missing some aloha bra'.

Here's my aloha, bra.

We're all equal on the water.

If 2 guys getting married want me to shape them a matching pair of boards for their altar, they'll get my best effort.

If they want lesson @ san onofre together on their honeymoon, I'll say aloha and give them a great honeymoon experience.

In short, I'll treat them as brothers, and show them true aloha.

If it's two ladies, I'll treat them as sisters and show them true aloha.
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I'm not sure I want to drink a vegan's juices no matter the age.

My guess is that fresh squeezed vegans creates a low fat juice.

PSU
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I hope you'll elaborate with details and particulars.

Simple. Comes down to reimbursement rates, especially for DW. Obamacare policies are not good at paying physicians. Then throw on top that most have a high deductible. So explain how to get blood from a turnip.

DW reimbursement has become so bad that it is not worth it to her to keep working. About a 50% cut. Not all can be blamed on Obamacare in her case but a good portion.

So, DW retires early, that means I have to take one for the team and work a little longer so we have that desired cushion.

Note, this doesn't even begin to touch the subject of our "grandfathered" health insurance policies and how they can't be changed. Just got a notice today that my premiums will be 20% higher in a couple months.

JLC
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If people are dying from treatable conditions, then the system isn't very effective.

You are making an honest mistake/faulty assumption. You assume that the patient is doing everything in their power to make the treatment as successful as possible. From my professional experience, so NOT true.

Yes the US runes up a large healthcare bill, people screw up, we physicians try to put them back together, send them back home with an instruction sheet, that sheet is too often tossed in the trash and soon enough we are back to square one.

So even something as simple as death is not a good metric. How would you take into account patient irresponsibility?

JLC
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...correcting problems with diet and lifestyle is not on there agenda because there is no $ in it for them.

I agree with you there. One major problem, your answer requires responsibility and work. Too much of the population wants to just swallow a pill. And even then on a hap hazard basis.

JLC
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No. of Recommendations: 31
JLC asks,

Yes the US runes up a large healthcare bill, people screw up, we physicians try to put them back together, send them back home with an instruction sheet, that sheet is too often tossed in the trash and soon enough we are back to square one.

So even something as simple as death is not a good metric. How would you take into account patient irresponsibility?

</snip>


I wonder how these countries with less expensive systems and better outcomes like France, Germany and Switzerland "take into account patient irresponsibility?"

intercst
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You are making an honest mistake/faulty assumption. You assume that the patient is doing everything in their power to make the treatment as successful as possible. From my professional experience, so NOT true.

Actually, the assumption is that patients are taking the same responsibility in all countries. Which in fact might not be true, there could be some cultural differences.

However,I doubt patients in the USA are that much that worse about managing their own health care than they are in Greece, Canada, or Spain.
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No. of Recommendations: 42
"All I hear is that adding gov't control to what we already have will fix everything."

Who has made that actual argument?

It sounds like you would be better off listening to actual arguments people make rather than the strawmen the voices in your head create.
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It seems to me the American health care system is focused on treatment after you become sick, as opposed to preventing disease. I've often pondered why the system doesn't encourage and even help us make healthy choices?

To the best of my ability the only answer I can think of is money.

The fast food chains do everything in their power to cut cost, at the expense of nutritional value. Why? profits, of course.

Commercial food processing seems to be on the same mission as fast food; cut cost even at the expense of nutrition. Why? profits I assume.

The drug companies only seem to focus on treatment of illness, none seem to want to prevent illness. Why? Apparently it's more profitable to treat the sick.

Even the alleged 'preventive' medicine is really not preventative. What is preventative about doing an annual physical? It seems this is simply to facilitate putting you a treatment program sooner.

I think it could/should be more balanced. Preventing disease should be our first line of defence, treatment is the backstop.
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No. of Recommendations: 6
Yes the US runes up a large healthcare bill, people screw up, we physicians try to put them back together, send them back home with an instruction sheet, that sheet is too often tossed in the trash and soon enough we are back to square one.

So even something as simple as death is not a good metric. How would you take into account patient irresponsibility?


Put me into the category of tossing out those instructions. Well, a quick scan, then file away. For several reasons:

1. One common instruction is to get a follow-up appointment with one or more of the doctors that was seen in the hospital, usually within 7-10 days. When I call, I am told the doctor has no openings for several months. Even when I explain my discharge instructions said to see him/her. Plus, I am home-bound, and it's extremely difficult to get out for doctor appointments.

2. They screw up my medications when I'm in the hospital, because they want to "fix" something that has been working for years. After my last stay, I ended up with a machine to give me oxygen at night. Once I got back on my regular medication dosages, I no longer needed it. They don't LISTEN to me, so why should I listen to them?

3. Too much paper. Much of those discharge papers are copies of the same sheets I've been getting on my medications for years. Finding the bits that are relevant can be a chore. Probably more so for patients that may be confused and dazed. And too much of those discharge papers are a "template" that contains multiple sections that don't apply, and those are not always obvious.

And, BTW, when I asked my own doctor if I should return the oxygen machine, he said no. Because if I ever needed it after returning it, it would be nearly impossible to get Medicare to pay for it the second time. And that's not the first piece of equipment where I've gotten that advice.




I'm reminded of the joke where the patient calls her doctor to ask about a new prescription, "Didn't you tell me I needed to take this for the rest of my life?"

"Yes."

"Then why does it say NO REFILLS!?"
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No. of Recommendations: 7
CMF: "The fast food chains do everything in their power to cut cost, at the expense of nutritional value. Why? profits, of course.
...Commercial food processing seems to be on the same mission as fast food; cut cost even at the expense of nutrition. Why? profits I assume."


Since this thread completely ran off the rails several days ago, this is as good a place as any to follow up on that theme.

One could make a pretty good case that we have spent the last 30-40 years building our entire economy on consumption and debt. We often read that consumption now constitutes roughly 70% of our economy. Some argue that that fact alone predisposes our entire economy to increased debt/bust cycles just like a household that appears to be prosperous until some event causes the entire house of cards to come tumbling down:

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/consumer...

A significant portion of our economy is the food chain in which hundreds of billions of dollars go to food which is processed to be cheap, tasty, convenient and have a really long shelf life. This is accomplished by taking out the fiber which has nutritional value, and adding salt, sugar and fat which make it tasty but further reduces the nutritional value.

So we collectively consume increasing portions of tasty, convenient fast food and ignore the ensuing obesity epidemic and growing number of heart attacks and other disease.

And while we continue to eat the processed foods that make us sick, we pour hundreds of billions of more dollars into processed diet foods and drugs that help us by mostly managing symptoms.

This underlying sickness in our economy runs much deeper than the Obmacare debate, preceded it, and will continue with or without regard for it.
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... there could be some cultural differences...

From the countries you mentioned, here is how I think the cultural differences would "evolve". Government run healthcare, limited access, you learn to take care of yourself.

Now from the places I've been on medical mission trips, there definitely are cultural differences. Just a prime example, I go to Nicaragua every year with an orthopedic surgery team. We do a bunch of total knee replacements. Post-op day one the Nicas are going home with a week's supply of ibuprofen and a few Tylenol #3. Why? No work, no money, no food. Here, people are in the hospital several days and you have to beat them to do rehab.

I could go on, but needless to say, the places I've been, it is like we handed out bags of gold (which is close to the truth for these people), so they are way more motivated to follow instructions.

JLC
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No. of Recommendations: 58
And back to health and medical care, my secret weapon is being a mostly raw food vegan that avoids destructive refined foods. The odds are pretty good DW and I will make it 65 without any major medical issues.

I'm still not understanding how being a raw food vegan or following a Biblical lifestyle (or both) inoculates you from having a car accident. Or being mugged in an alley. Or stepping on a nail and getting tetanus. Any of those can turn in to hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs, as I'm sure you're aware.

I'm all about freedom. The freedom to chose your own path in life regardless of where the path leads, as long as you don't trample others during your journey.

How about that "pre-existing condition" thing? I wasn't "free" in any sense of the word, since no one would insure me. How is that "free"?

ACA is one more stop in a century long struggle of giving the federal gov't more power while reducing the freedom of American citizens. ...We've seen that power destroy people countless times via authoritarian governments throughout history and still do in communist countries today.

I can't help but ask. What freedoms (please be specific) are you lacking? Where is the government trampling your rights, and where is this "authoratianism" manifesting itself? Seriously, I'd like to know.

There will be no freedom to choose. Pre ACA, we had freedom to not participate.

This can't be what you're talking about. As MF has explained, you ALWAYS participated. If you went to a hospital without coverage, the hospital made up the difference by charging other people more. That meant you were forcing others to subsidize you. If you went to the hospital WITH coverage, you were overcharged to make up for the people the hospital served who couldn't pay. That showed up in YOUR bill, and your insurance premiums (which may have been paid by your employer, but it's still money not left over for paychecks.)

Let's be clear. You were never "paying only your own way." You were paying for others one way or another, the ACA attempts to make everyone contribute something to help eliminate the free rider problem. (There is an alternative, of course: tell hospitals to allow people to die on the sidewalk out front if they don't have the money. Not great marketing, but certainly a different approach.)

And when you say "you found the answer", I know it is the answer for *you* and that you are not saying the same answer works for everyone. But I can't help but notice that our society requires solutions to problems that DO work for everyone, or at least as close as we can approach to that goal. So since we had a "free market" health care system which delivers mediocre results at high cost, insurance which refuses to cover 25% of the population, and more free market capitalists pushing ever less healthy food(s) at ever better margins for themselves (and damn the consequences), what is "the answer" for everyone else? Surely it can't be listening to lectures from you and Michelle Obama on the benefits of fruit and vegetables, can it?

You see, things like that make a believer out of you no matter what the naysayers say.

Steve Jobs admitted, just before he died, that he would have lived another decade at least had he "succumbed" to modern medicine, rather than trying to treat his condition with juices and herbs. That's the kind of thing that makes a believer out of me, because he's right. He got sucking into the "natural and holistic" vortex, and died young. Tragedy, that.
 
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From the countries you mentioned, here is how I think the cultural differences would "evolve". Government run healthcare, limited access, you learn to take care of yourself.

So the key to good health care outcomes is...to restrict access to healthcare?
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No. of Recommendations: 36
Yes the US runes up a large healthcare bill, people screw up, we physicians try to put them back together, send them back home with an instruction sheet, that sheet is too often tossed in the trash and soon enough we are back to square one.

Of course, "patient irresponsibility" may not always be the patient's fault. My mom is 78, with Parkinson's and a host of other troubles. I usually go to the doctor with her. She does not have dementia, but she doesn't always hear very well, and I've noticed that she has a tendency to downplay things for the doctor, including symptoms, etc. She also nods with great understanding when he (usually very quickly) goes over things with her and gives her the sheet. Then we get in the car and she asks me lots of questions or the next day calls me because she doesn't understand the instruction sheet or--very often--it's written in print so fine she finds it hard to read. I think doctors who specialize in older patients could do better.

Similarly, my brother was just recently in the hospital with a perforation and peritonitis. My brother had a head injury when he was 5. It's all over his medical records. We mentioned it to his doctors several times. He's not stupid, he's not retarded, but you do have to spend a little time with him going over things. I read the patient diet sheet myself and was confused--it was not clearly differentiated until you sat down and studied it what were foods he could eat versus couldn't eat. Never mind the quick review of his IV line that he went home with... and God Bless the home health nurse who came out and patiently showed him several times how to clear the line, etc.

My point is: if people are sick, they may not "get it" the first time. I know I've had medical diagnoses that left me reeling--after the doctor said "You have X..." the roar in my head and panic took over and I missed a lot of what he said afterward. Fortunately I have the ability to look stuff up myself and the chutzpah to call up the office the next day when my brain has calmed down. A full 14% of the population is functionally illiterate. They can't write down the doctor's instructions or read the literature they're sent home with... and most won't admit to others when they can't read it. 21% of American adults read below the 5th grade level. They may be throwing away those instruction sheets for a lot of different reasons.

Yes, we Americans don't eat right and don't exercise enough, and I agree, we should do better. But I wish you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss people as not caring or "throwing the sheet in the trash." I'm sure some do. But there are a lot of other things going on in people's lives that the doctor doesn't know about.
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gh

I'm still not understanding how being a raw food vegan or following a Biblical lifestyle (or both) inoculates you from having a car accident. Or being mugged in an alley. Or stepping on a nail and getting tetanus. Any of those can turn in to hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs, as I'm sure you're aware.


You are correct. No diet can prevent accidents. I will have some form of insurance, whether Christian Health Ministries or a HDHP/HSA, like I currently do through my employer.

I'm all about freedom. The freedom to chose your own path in life regardless of where the path leads, as long as you don't trample others during your journey.

How about that "pre-existing condition" thing? I wasn't "free" in any sense of the word, since no one would insure me. How is that "free"?


Keep in mind gh that I by no means think current medical care is perfect. There are large gapping holes as you illustrated with the link about your story. I just don't trust the gov't to fill those holes up. The larger the organization, whether religious, corporate or government, the more room for corruption and the less transparency. I don't have all the answers but I guarantee you, neither does the gov't. The insanely huge, complex ACA law was proof how silly gov't can be.


I can't help but ask. What freedoms (please be specific) are you lacking? Where is the government trampling your rights, and where is this "authoratianism" manifesting itself? Seriously, I'd like to know.

Right now, ACA is fairly limited in it's affect on me. My insurance costs and deductibles have gone up significantly in the past 2 years. ACA has just begun GH, do you really think it will get better from here? I admit I am cynical about the federal gov't and I know it shows in my posts. I can't predict the future but given gov't history, I'm certain ACA is the springboard for complete control of medical care and people like me, who saved their lives, made sacrifices for their family and finally have something to retire and rest on, will be expected to pony up more, just because we have it. No matter that I chose to drive Honda civics for 10 year intervals while my neighbor exchanged 50k SUV's, saved nothing but he will have his hand in my pocket no doubt, using the strong arm of the gov't.


This can't be what you're talking about. As MF has explained, you ALWAYS participated. If you went to a hospital without coverage, the hospital made up the difference by charging other people more. That meant you were forcing others to subsidize you. If you went to the hospital WITH coverage, you were overcharged to make up for the people the hospital served who couldn't pay. That showed up in YOUR bill, and your insurance premiums (which may have been paid by your employer, but it's still money not left over for paychecks.)

Let's be clear. You were never "paying only your own way." You were paying for others one way or another, the ACA attempts to make everyone contribute something to help eliminate the free rider problem. (There is an alternative, of course: tell hospitals to allow people to die on the sidewalk out front if they don't have the money. Not great marketing, but certainly a different approach.)

And when you say "you found the answer", I know it is the answer for *you* and that you are not saying the same answer works for everyone. But I can't help but notice that our society requires solutions to problems that DO work for everyone, or at least as close as we can approach to that goal. So since we had a "free market" health care system which delivers mediocre results at high cost, insurance which refuses to cover 25% of the population, and more free market capitalists pushing ever less healthy food(s) at ever better margins for themselves (and damn the consequences), what is "the answer" for everyone else? Surely it can't be listening to lectures from you and Michelle Obama on the benefits of fruit and vegetables, can it?


Steve Jobs admitted, just before he died, that he would have lived another decade at least had he "succumbed" to modern medicine, rather than trying to treat his condition with juices and herbs. That's the kind of thing that makes a believer out of me, because he's right. He got sucking into the "natural and holistic" vortex, and died young. Tragedy, that.


I should not have ever brought up my diet. My bad. Whenever I do outside a fitness/lifestyle board, it usually ends up bad, even in conservative circles. The thing is, it is very difficult to explain in a few words what I've gone through since I was forced to quit the Decathlon and attempted to find answers to my ailments. I let my guard down listening to the video intercst posted with that goofball in it.

WIth regards to your other points and ignoring my own lifestyle choices, it no longer matters what I nor other limited gov't types think about ACA and it's evolution. WE have to play along. The progressives won and there is no going back. I will obey the law because I am a law abiding citizen and I truly do want the best for ALL people. I'm not a selfish, self-obsessed person that will be bathing in my IRA dollars after I retire. I plan on living on about 35k for basic expenses and then spend another 20k goofing off and traveling with DW, kids and grandkids. The remaining 20k leftover will probably be given away to charities and for setting aside accounts for my grandkids and their kids.

All I can do moving forward is use the system as best I can according to my beliefs, lifestyle and needs.

I still have a passion for track & field. I would love to spend springs volunteering time at local High Schools for instruction on individual events to any kid, regardless of ability, if they just want to learn and get better at what ever they do. I've done that before and received tremendous satisfaction from it. Nothing better than seeing the smile of a young, hard working athlete who gave everything he/she had and subsequently improved their time or distance in their respective event. It's moments like that I live for.

Metal
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I wonder how these countries with less expensive systems and better outcomes like France, Germany and Switzerland "take into account patient irresponsibility?"

First I'd like to see if we are comparing apples to apples. The most used and wrong stat of neonatal death rates is prime example. Many countries (even a few 3rd world countries) have a better rate than the USA. But then you look at what the consider a live birth. Not the same. USA, one breath and/or a pulse, no matter how premature, counts as a neonatal death. Other places if below a certain gestational age, labeled a miscarriage even if the baby lives for some hours.

SO, if we want to compare heart attacks, cancer treatment, etc., etc., etc., are protocols and record keeping the same. I seriously doubt it. The USA has a habit of too much futile/end of life care. I'm sure many countries say you have stage X of Z cancer. Here are some narcotics and cannibis.

So, patient irresponsibility? I wonder how they count their statistics.

JLC
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As a physician, this is what I tell anyone willing to listen:

Never let a loved one go to an emergency room alone. Never ever.


Never let a loved one stay in a hospital room alone. Never ever.


Never let a loved who is not medically sophisticated go to a doctor's
visit alone. Never ever.
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