Skip to main content
No. of Recommendations: 6
Covid-19 Blew Up the Life of Riley Index
By Scott Burns / July 4, 2020

If you’re looking to retire and live the proverbial Life of Riley, I’ve got one thing to say.
Fuhgeddaboudit. Retirement has been done in by Covid-19 and the Federal Reserve.

While those who aspire to retire at 30 or 40 will find early retirement nearly impossible, most people have the advantage of retiring later with an income from Social Security.

https://couchpotatoinvesting.com/covid-19-blew-up-the-life-o...

t
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Interesting article; and yes, it’s definitely a trend that’s been coming, with the long trend in declining interest rates. But really, how realistic is retirement at 30 or 40? YES, I KNOW, some people here have done it, but they were statistical outliers, even at the time.

And when his model uses a 50-50 portfolio with half the investments in treasury bonds, that’s really doing it the hard way.

Bill
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
Retirement at 30/40 is just not remotely realistic for a vast number of people. You need an inheritance, cashing in on stock options/business sale or have a very good paying job.

And a large number of early retirees did not retire, they simply retired from one job and now are earning income via other means such as writing about early retirement, travel blogs, side gigs, etc.

If you have a high earning couple, no kids and low living costs I can see them accumulating enough to retire early although most high earning people tend to have moved into a high expense lifestyle.

As I get closer to retirement, I think once you get there and still want to work it is a more liberating feeling. You know you don't have to work and can quit anytime you want or take a part time job, or take a pay cut and do something you like.

I can probably retire at 60, to some people that is early, obviously to others it isn't.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 11
“...the financial assets you’d need to have an income of about $89,000 has soared from an already high level of $5,061,802 to a whopping $7,881,858.”

Withdrawal rate of 1.13%.

Seriously?
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Bill: "And when his model uses a 50-50 portfolio with half the investments in treasury bonds, that’s really doing it the hard way."

If you look at his Couch Potato portfolio, you'll find you'd have been wise to be following his advice year after year after year.

Folks in the 1990s dot com bust , if they rebalanced, came out way ahead

Folks in the 2008 meltdown - did the same.
Once a year you re-balance.

t.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
rich: "Retirement at 30/40 is just not remotely realistic for a vast number of people. You need an inheritance, cashing in on stock options/business sale or have a very good paying job.

As I get closer to retirement, I think once you get there and still want to work it is a more liberating feeling. You know you don't have to work and can quit anytime you want or take a part time job, or take a pay cut and do something you like.

I can probably retire at 60, to some people that is early, obviously to others it isn't."

Intercst retired in his 40s. I retired at 52.5

One of the secrets is LBYM. I was a senior engineer in EE. Saved 30% of my income. Invested. Worked 31 years, then bailed out.

Never looked back.

Just don't adopt a $100,000 lifestyle on a $100,000 salary if you want to retire early.

You know Warren Buffet lives in the same house he bought early in his career, right? He didn't buy fancy cars but bought a middle of the line car and kept it a long time


Some day read The Millionaire Next Door. You'll find that those who wish to impress are often the worst savers and have the least net worth. You don't "need" a Rolex, gold bling, 4500 sq foot house, and a top end car or 2 or 3, 3 ATVs, motorcycles, big boats, a country club membership, etc.

You don't "need" $50/100 dinners out.

I'm amazed at how people spend money these days. I grew up in the 1950s and 60s. Most families had ONE car - and that was 'just a car'. Our house was 1000 sq feet including the finished half attic my dad finished on a 75x100 foot lot in suburban NJ. We took 'camping vacations' in a tent. Dad bought a summer place - well, bought the property and proceeded, with help from his brothers, to built a 20x30 foot cinder-block house with a loft. Hand built the stone fireplace. Built several boats from kits. We enjoyed the heck out of the place each summer. Had 'running water'. One of us would grab a 5 gallon bucket, run next door to the neighbors lot, pump the well and fill the bucket and run back. Of course, had an outhouse. No exotic vacations flying here and there spending tens of thousands of bucks on 'experiences' and travel.

We ate out maybe 3 or 4 times a YEAR - maybe once or twice on the camping vacations or for a very special occasion - and it was at a Ho-Jo's or similar.

While working, I drove basic cars. Ford Mustang, Chevy, Nissan sentra, Ford Van, Honda Accord (17 years), etc. No fancy Lexus or Cadillacs or BMWs or Porsches. No 0-60 in six second speed cars. Getting new car fever is an excellent way of delaying your early retirement.

Now, folks have giant cellphone bills, giant monthly cable/internet bills, sucking up their money. Spend lavishly on vacations and bling and useless junk they use a few times and it just sits. A closet full of $200 Nike's or similar.....


t
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 4
Adrian:"“...the financial assets you’d need to have an income of about $89,000 has soared from an already high level of $5,061,802 to a whopping $7,881,858.”

Withdrawal rate of 1.13%.

Seriously? "

- - -

You better go back and READ the article again . Read it carefully

The expected yield, according to his projects, for your portfolio (50/50) is 1.13% this year.

There are multiple columns - depending upon your choice.

If you retire, at a 4% withdrawal rate, you will need over 7 million to safely withdraw $89K a year. That assumes NO other income like pension or SS.

If you look at the last columns, where it assumes you need 60% of 89K from your investments (40% provided by SS), then it is just over 1.3 million.

There is high risk at this point of poor returns in your portfolio. Dividends are being chopped left and right. Few companies are projecting 'growing profits'. Treasuries and CDs are paying a few pennies a month interest. I had a CD up for renewal - they wanted to give me 0.06% interest on a new CD for 5 years. Wow......No thanks. with inflation at 2% or more, you are losing 2 percent a year.

Thus, his conclusion that few are going to be able to retire early without the benefit of SS payout (or pension) that provides 40% or more of their income needs at the time of their retirement).

t
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 9
" I grew up in the 1950s and 60s."

1960 was 60 years ago. There's no valid comparison to be made about the amount or the things that people spent.

What would the people who grew up in the 1890's and 1900's say about your family's lifestyle?

Living below your means attitude is the only valid economic advice for any period.
Harder to do in some periods than others.
I'm guessing now is one of those periods...
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
Withdrawal rate of 1.13%.

Seriously?


He was basing it on not using principal, only earnings. That said - if you're retiring at 30 or 40, you should be planning on a much longer retirement than the 30 years that the 4% rule was designed for. So starting at a 2.5% rate probably wouldn't be unreasonable, which would require $3.56MM Even a 3% starting withdrawal would require $2.97MM

AJ
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
And a large number of early retirees did not retire, they simply retired from one job and now are earning income via other means such as writing about early retirement, travel blogs, side gigs, etc.

Hey Rich. I'm glad you pointed that out. Over the years I've seen a bunch of folks say they are retired but then in the same breath they talk about their contract position here, their helping out during the busy season there, teaching as a sub, doing a little extra on the side, etc.

If you are retired you should be retired. Done. Kaput. The end. El Fin.

Regards,

ImAGolfer (retired '03)
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 9
He was basing it on not using principal, only earnings. That said - if you're retiring at 30 or 40, you should be planning on a much longer retirement than the 30 years that the 4% rule was designed for. So starting at a 2.5% rate probably wouldn't be unreasonable, which would require $3.56MM Even a 3% starting withdrawal would require $2.97MM -- AJ

It largely depends on one's rate of return.... and what I'm about to say violates common financial advice.

Back in 1993, we were nearly bankrupt from a failed home construction business. I went back to a regular corporate job and put a renewed focus on investing. By that point, I had been investing (in stocks) since 1965 so I wasn't a newbie. Seventeen years later, I retired early... thanks mostly to successful investing. And despite market collapses in 1999 and 2008.

Since 2010, we've withdrawn from our IRAs at a rate averaging TEN PERCENT per year. You'd think we'd be going broke, but we now have twice as much money as in 2010. I expect to ratchet up our withdrawals again next year.

Bottom line: Traditional financial advice is made by people who don't understand stock investing.... except as it is taught in books written by..... those who don't understand stock investing.

I'm just thankful that when I got my MBA that I knew better than the drivel being taught. Well intentioned drivel, but drivel.

Those who study how to invest in growing companies are constrained only by the growth of their companies. And, although this may sound self serving, there are ample opportunities to learn how to invest.... and to have great recommendations.... here at the Fool. I recommend Stock Advisor and Rule Breakers. Incredibly cheap for what you get, especially for those who participate on the stock discussion boards.

Rob
Rule Breaker / Supernova Starshot Home Fool & STMP/MTH Maintenance Coverage Fool
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
"1960 was 60 years ago. There's no valid comparison to be made about the amount or the things that people spent.

What would the people who grew up in the 1890's and 1900's say about your family's lifestyle?"

---

Great Grandpa V came here in the 1880s from Germany. Worked in the mills in Johnston, NY. Had a very small house and raised two kids - one died in the Johnston Flood. Moved to NYC to a multi-story walkup apartment. Didn't have whole lot of possessions. Average person then probably had at best 3 changes of clothes and one pair of shoes.

Grandpa V had five kids in the 1910s-1920s. Lived in a narrow house in NJ a few miles from NYC and took the ferry to work into NYC. Survived the depression barely. Had a garden to raise food. Used to fix cars along with sons in their garage for extra money. Kids worked every summer from age 12 on. Didn't have a lot of 'extras'...

Now - the 'average' family in my town lives in a 4-5 bedroom home. There are maybe 25% just 3 bedroom homes here and a few 2 bedroom homes, and a few hundred 6 or 7 bedroom houses, too.....
Half the homes here have in ground swimming pools. Half the houses have 3 or 4 cars. Half a dozen large TVs. Kitchens to rival the best - granite everywhere, tile everywhere. All sorts of appliances. Induction stoves. Two or 3 ovens.

120 years ago, you were happy to have a gas stove - maybe with an oven below. If not, you had a wood burning stove - probably half the homes on farms and rural areas. only 'cities' had gas service.

60 years ago, just about everyone had a 'stove' with an oven. usual gas but I guess a few electrics were around. Gas dryers arrived, what, about 1965 on...otherwise, you'd hang the clothes on the clothes line.

However, the people 120 years ago didn't have a lot of 'extra money'. There was no SS. Most worked till they croaked - which was usually in their 60s.

For 60 years ago, those folks had SS. About 1/3rd had decent pensions. The rest had to 'get by' in retirement.

Now, you'd better save like crazy. SS won't hack it. You'll be greeting customers at Walmart or be a helper at Home Depot......

t
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 29
Intercst retired in his 40s. I retired at 52.5

One of the secrets is LBYM. I was a senior engineer in EE. Saved 30% of my income. Invested. Worked 31 years, then bailed out.



Uh, yeah. One of the "secrets" you failed to mention is to stay single and not have a spouse or children. Your income goes a lot further if you don't need to spend any of it feeding or clothing or supporting a few other hungry mouths.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
LBYM is a good idea. Doing something you enjoy for work is also a good idea. Being happy with your choices is another good idea.

Or you can spend your retirement pointing out what other people choose to do that you didn't.

Kind of like the "rules" posted - this is retirement; that is not.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
...the financial assets you’d need to have an income of about $89,000...

In my entire life, my gross income has never even been close to that, even adjusting for inflation. Last time I looked, I calculated my max inflation-adjusted income at about $60K. And my original plans were to retire before I was 40.

But my gross salary wouldn't include company paid benefits, which I can't factor in. But, even so...
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Uh, yeah. One of the "secrets" you failed to mention is to stay single and not have a spouse or children.

Yeah, it depends on the choices you make and the choices you plan to make.

Last estimate I saw was that kids end up costing about $250K and cats/dogs (over their lifetime) end up costing about $60K to $90K, depending on the species and the breed.

So if you want to have multiple kids and multiple pets over your lifetime, that's a fair chunk of change. And I'm not sure those costs include college, or paying for a daughter's wedding. :(

My brother got divorced a few years ago. A big chunk of change.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1

But my gross salary wouldn't include company paid benefits, which I can't factor in. But, even so...


Larger companies often provide a total compensation amount. They factor in vacation, benefits, etc.

I have a relative who never married, had no kids, had a good paying job, and never bought a house (he did rent for a while) and is living in the house he grew up in so he is doing quite well (financially).

I'd be in good shape if my GF had any money, even 1/3 of what I have but unfortunately she doesn't. Fortunately she doesn't spend much either.

And I don't regret for a second spending money while younger on ski trips and European vacations. Getting older can make travel tougher and unexpected situations like the virus makes me very glad I got my major bucket things in while I was younger and healthy (it was a small bucket list).

My mother got sick and my father and her never had the retirement they had hoped for so I learned from them that it is better to enjoy it (within reason) than waiting until retirement which may not come, or not come in a way you hoped it would.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 11
My mother got sick and my father and her never had the retirement they had hoped for so I learned from them that it is better to enjoy it (within reason) than waiting until retirement which may not come, or not come in a way you hoped it would.

Vouch.

Mom and her best friend wanted to travel together. Road trips. Mom retired. Almost literally as they were packing her best friend got sick. And died. Mom was in her 70s at the time.

Then, for me, I thought I was dead within a year. I had a possible glioma. Turned out it wasn't, but it was changing and they had to go in and get it (a biopsy would have been as invasive, so just get it out). Then 1poorlady was diagnosed with cancer (successfully removed, presently in chemo to prevent recurrence). Then I broke my spine.

Yeah, I'm retiring as soon as we're both healthy again and I can get private insurance coverage. The "average life expectancy" is an average. Some people don't make it to the average, pretty much by definition of "average". I have no assurance I will make it that far. Live now. I have enough saved, so I don't need to work.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 4
If you retire, at a 4% withdrawal rate, you will need over 7 million to safely withdraw $89K a year. That assumes NO other income like pension or SS.

Ummm...look again. Starting with a 4% withdrawal rate, to get $89k, you only need $2.23MM The $7.88MM figure is if you are taking out only what the portfolio is expected to yield, at 1.13% for the 50/50 portfolio.

AJ
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 6
It largely depends on one's rate of return.... and what I'm about to say violates common financial advice.

Yes, it also violates the rules for the 4% withdrawal rate rule, which is a portfolio consisting of the S&P 500 and US Treasuries, and the rules for the Couch Potato portfolios, which is what the article was about. Individual stocks can do well, if one wants to put in the time, and still has the mind to do the analysis. I'm not counting on either of those as I grow older.

AJ
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 3
"If you retire, at a 4% withdrawal rate, you will need over 7 million to safely withdraw $89K a year. That assumes NO other income like pension or SS."


It's also based on RETIRING EARLY - like in your 40s or 30s.....with a 60 or 70 year withdrawal period.

If you wait for SS, you are at least 62, and probably 66+ and maybe wait till 70.

With low interest rates and falling dividends, those long retirement periods get more risky and you have to take a lower SWR for 50 and 60 years -

t
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Intercst retired in his 40s. I retired at 52.5

One of the secrets is LBYM. I was a senior engineer in EE. Saved 30% of my income. Invested. Worked 31 years, then bailed out.


I agree, one secret is not being frivolous and LBYM. Another is selecting the right occupation. The BLS occupation that was closest to what I did throughout my career was "Software developer, system software". An older, more common name for the occupation was System Software Engineer.

Early in my career I made the mistake of moving into management. Had I stayed there, I would have been a candidate for early retirement. Fortunately, I was able to escape back to the technical ranks where I spent the last 25 years of employment and retired at the age of 68. Financial it was a smart move as my salary was significantly more than most of my managers.

Scot Burns' or was it someone elses assertion that you can't live on Social Security is pure BS. My Social Security income plus two small pensions (<$1,000/mo) is more than enough to pay my normal living expenses plus Federal and state income taxes on the absurd amount of RMD the IRS mandates that I take each year.

Perhaps, I was just lucky in finding an occupation that I found both entertaining and challenging and allows me to ignore Bengen's 4% rule in retirement. RMD is just moved to a taxable investment account and reinvested. This may change at some point in the future.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
If you retire, at a 4% withdrawal rate, you will need over 7 million to safely withdraw $89K a year. That assumes NO other income like pension or SS.
.
.
.
With low interest rates and falling dividends, those long retirement periods get more risky and you have to take a lower SWR for 50 and 60 years -


The longer retirement timeframes is why the column based on the yield of the portfolio was in the table. That doesn't change the fact that to get an $89k income with a 4% SWR is only $2.23MM, NOT "over 7 million" as you claimed.

I would agree that the 4% SWR is likely too aggressive for those with a 50 or 60 year retirement plan, and have already said that in this thread. But you were talking about a 4% SWR, not a 50 or 60 year retirement at a lower SWR.

AJ
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
"Scot Burns' or was it someone elses assertion that you can't live on Social Security is pure BS. My Social Security income plus two small pensions (<$1,000/mo) is more than enough to pay my normal living expenses plus Federal and state income taxes on the absurd amount of RMD the IRS mandates that I take each year."

Most people aren't going to live the "Life of Riley" which is what the original post was - using only SS.

I'd say 90% of people say their 'needs' in retirement are far more than their SS income - which if you want to get it at full level is now 66-67. Max is at 70. Taking it early chops it 1/3rd.

Yeah, half the folks in FL get by on SS. A married couple where both worked their 35 years will do OK...but remember the average SS payout is about $1000/month. Sure, you can live in a trailer home in FL.....but it's a strain to keep a car (and insurance) and have anything else.

That's hardly the "Life of Riley" that Scott Burns was talking about - getting yourself in the top quartile.

Fortunately, I too, managed to 'select' a reasonably good income earning profession - EE. I also was LBYM. (Some of my managers did clean up on stock options - which I only got once as an EE - even though their salary pay was comparable.).

Go back and read the article - it was about having the income to be in the top quartile and live the Life of Riley.

SS won't 'pay all my bills'. After they take out Medicare and Supplement (and the big penalties I have for 'living the life of Riley' type income), there's not much there. One government hand gives, the other takes a good chunk of it away - oh and then another government hand whacks you with income tax on 85% of it!

The 4% rule was for periods of interest at several to 13% return on Treasuries. We are in uncharted territory with 0.15% type interest rates on those bills these days - essentially negative interest as inflation eats away at your purchasing power.


t
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 3
Why is he using JUST yield? Total return is what matters.

Bonds are one of the best performing major asset YTD. To focus only on their yield is like complaining about the lack of yield you get from BRK while ignoring price appreciation.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
You better go back and READ the article again . Read it carefully

The expected yield, according to his projects, for your portfolio (50/50) is 1.13% this year.


I read it. Lot's of doom and gloom: "Retirement has been done in by Covid-19 and the Federal Reserve". No it hasn't.

There are multiple columns - depending upon your choice.

The table is unreadable on my ipad. It's formatted with no spaces between columns.

If you retire, at a 4% withdrawal rate, you will need over 7 million to safely withdraw $89K a year.

Check your math. 89k/0.04 = $2.225 million.

If you retire at a 1.13% withdrawal rate you will need over $7m. And that's ridiculous.

His 50/50 portfolio is ridiculous. Yes, it used to work, when interest rates were higher and trending down. It's not going to work well going forward for an early retiree. Our early retiree needs to take more risk on the equity side.

It is interesting, though, that my family spends about the $89k he mentions, not including charitable contributions, and when we don't buy a new car or some such. I'd say we are living the "Life of Riley".
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
That doesn't change the fact that to get an $89k income with a 4% SWR is only $2.23MM, NOT "over 7 million" as you claimed.
I would agree that the 4% SWR is likely too aggressive for those with a 50 or 60 year retirement plan,


Once you get past 35 or so years, the SWR is essentially the same. 40 years + is equivalent to infinite. And Firecalc shows that SWR to be about 3.5%.

I believe 4% would be workable is you used a variable WR and cut back in bull markets.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 23
Tele - I wasn't trying to downplay anything in the article, or argue whether the 4% SWR was actually safe or not.

I was only pointing out that you were reading the table incorrectly when you said

If you retire, at a 4% withdrawal rate, you will need over 7 million to safely withdraw $89K a year. That assumes NO other income like pension or SS.

That's wrong. The table said a 4% rate required $2.23MM The $7.88MM figure was based on a portfolio yield of 1.13%

I guess the problem is that you can't admit you were wrong, so you just keep trying to deflect with other arguments. So, I will say it more bluntly:

Tele - whether you want to admit it or not, you read the table incorrectly. Any other posts back to me don't need to say anything other than "Yes, AJ, you are correct - I was wrong" If you don't want to say that, then don't say anything.

AJ
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
“...the financial assets you’d need to have an income of about $89,000 has soared from an already high level of $5,061,802 to a whopping $7,881,858.”

Withdrawal rate of 1.13%.

Seriously?


Currently have a dividend growing portfolio of around $2.1M throwing off around $96k or 4.5% yield. One could say a withdrawal rate of 0%.

JLC
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
If you retire at a 1.13% withdrawal rate you will need over $7m. And that's ridiculous.

tele comparing it to a 4% SWR was ridiculous. The SWR was based on the portfolio not going to zero before the end of 30 years. It was not to maintain the exact same amount in the portfolio over the whole 30 year period. The $7.8 million was to provide $89k income with zero depletion. Now if a person wanted $100k annual spending money and allowed the total to decrease, they could shove all $7.8 million under the mattress and after 78 years, run out of money. Yes, the $7.8 million is a ridiculous number.

PSU
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
Why is he using JUST yield? Total return is what matters.

Because there's a segment of people who are stuck on dividends, as if stocks were just a funny sort of bond.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Yeah, it depends on the choices you make and the choices you plan to make.
Last estimate I saw was that kids end up costing about $250K


Sounds about right. Having four kids plus my wife and I deciding to make it work on one income so we could have a Stay At Home Parent pushed ER back to age 61/60, but our top goal wasn't to quit working ASAP. I see the attraction of FI, but that's been a secondary pursuit.

It's good that the OP's article points out that stabilizing effect of SS. It illustrates the value in having 35 years of paid work to get all the SS credits. Anybody thinking he/she can retire at age 30 probably wasn't an investor in the last big crash, and some of those thinking about age 40 may not have been. Things may not be like they were in the past, like a short recession followed by massive gains. There could be a long malaise. Also, during good times, people seem to asses their risk tolerance higher than what actually happens. It's easy *now* to picture riding one's stock holdings during the Great Recession down 55% knowing that they'll bounce back in a couple years; not actually knowing what could be next is harder.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 14
Intercst retired in his 40s. I retired at 52.5

One of the secrets is LBYM.


Neither of you had any kids.

PSU
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Neither of you had any kids.

Shame to remove yourself from the human gene pool and brag about it.

At least Steven den Beste left behind a great set of blog articles. Those will last forever, even though his genes are gone.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 4
t:

"...folks have giant cellphone bills, giant monthly cable/internet bills, sucking up their money. Spend lavishly on vacations and bling and useless junk they use a few times and it just sits. A closet full of $200 Nike's or similar....."

Sadly true.

I've said this before, so I guess I'm boring, but we live quite happily in our own home on several acres in a scattered, small town, on a wooded ridge here in Vermont. No costly shoes or other clothes, no fancy cellphones, and just reasonable expenses for food and necessities. Mind you, we don't smoke, rarely drink, do not go to bars or expensive performances in theaters, and tend to live quietly. Speaking of which, we LOVE being able to enjoy the peace and quiet out here, except for occasional planes flying over or a vehicle going by on the dirt road 150 feet away

We retired at 62 (because we had to for various reasons) and have no big pensions or big IRA's. We live pretty comfortably, to be honest. We contribute to our church and to charities we KNOW are for real (mostly local ones). We think our state is aa pretty nice place to live, frankly, contrary to some of the published "lists".

A lot of life -- and retirement -- is what you make of it.

Vermonter
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
ImAGolfer:

"If you are retired you should be retired. Done. Kaput. The end. El Fin."

Love that. Been that way for us for over 18 years now, much like you.

To each his or her own, obviously!

Vermonter
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Oh -- and we had three kids. All went to college and now have good jobs, are married, and have kids of their own. We had two in college at once for 2 years, too, which WAS tough.

Vermonter
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0

I've said this before, so I guess I'm boring, but we live quite happily in our own home on several acres in a scattered, small town, on a wooded ridge here in Vermont. No costly shoes or other clothes, no fancy cellphones, and just reasonable expenses for food and necessities. Mind you, we don't smoke, rarely drink, do not go to bars or expensive performances in theaters, and tend to live quietly. Speaking of which, we LOVE being able to enjoy the peace and quiet out here, except for occasional planes flying over or a vehicle going by on the dirt road 150 feet away

We retired at 62 (because we had to for various reasons) and have no big pensions or big IRA's. We live pretty comfortably, to be honest. We contribute to our church and to charities we KNOW are for real (mostly local ones). We think our state is aa pretty nice place to live, frankly, contrary to some of the published "lists".

A lot of life -- and retirement -- is what you make of it.

Vermonter


Just curious, how expensive is housing in a nice area of Vermont?

Enjoy.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
richinaz:

How expensive...? Boy, that depends, obviously, on your style of living, what kind of home or land you want or need, in town or outside town, etc.! Care to clarify a bit on those factors?

FYI, we still have a small remnant mortgage on the home, we pay taxes on the home, and we like to eat out almost daily when we can (usually lunch, which is cheaper), except now, of course.

We improved this home and it is now a 3-bedroom, 2-1/2 bath home, with nice large kitchen, foyer, dining room, and 14x20 ft living room with cathedral ceiling and Palladian window. Only the master bedroom is on the main floor; the other two and one bath are downstairs. (The home is on a ridge so the main floor and main entrance are 2 steps above the front yard, and the downstairs exits onto the edge of the ridge if needed, but is rarely used.)

We also have 2-1/2 car detached garage and are on 11 acres, much of which is wooded (mostly evergreen, plus some maples and white birches) except for a front and side lawn. We're also on a dirt road, which may not appeal to everyone.

The home uses oil heat, mostly radiant under the floors now except for one older portion. We have 2 window AC units, one in our bedroom and one in the dining room, and they keep the house pretty comfortable in the summer.

Help any?

Vermonter
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
what are the property taxes like in Vermont? Are there any hidden taxes? For ex. I understand that car registration in North Carolina is unusually high.

I live in NY's Hudson Valley and the real estate here varies widely. You could find a simple ranch with 3BRs/1-1/2BA, 1300 sq ft with maybe a basement with 900 livable sq. ft on a 1/3 of an acre for...200,000K +/- 40K, depending on where. Property taxes somewhere between 4K-6K, again depending on town. This is Ulster County which includes the college town of New Paltz, the always up-n-coming Kingston, Woodstock (home of no actual rock festival but famous for it nonetheless), Saugerties (where Woodstock '94 did take place), Mt. Tremper, and Phoenicia (which is a quick ride up to Hunter Mountain for skiing, if that's your bag).

Greene County to the north and home to Catskill and lesser-known towns and the ski towns of Hunter, Jewett, Tannersville...have many lower priced homes and lower taxes but much less to do and if you do opt for, say, cable/internet, you will beholden to a rotten, high-priced, low-option company...

We love it here. Beautiful until now at least lots of new restaurants (CIA -- Culinary Institute is across the river in Hyde Park and many graduates fall in love with the area and open shop here).

Just my 2 cents for anyone interested.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Why is he using JUST yield? Total return is what matters.
——————-
Because there's a segment of people who are stuck on dividends, as if stocks were just a funny sort of bond.

——————-
No, it’s because interest and dividends pay the bills when total return is negative, when the market is having a bad year and you’ll get killed if you have to sell.

Bill
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 5
No, it’s because interest and dividends pay the bills when total return is negative, when the market is having a bad year and you’ll get killed if you have to sell.

No you won't.
Over a many decades time frame it is just part of the normal up and down cycle.
That's why you only withdraw 4% rather than the higher amount that your investments might gain in a good year.

Mike
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
I would think a retired person would emphasize access to medical care. Quality medical care. So I assume that means being close to a city. We are about 3 miles from a hospital, and about 2.5 miles from the cancer center where our oncologist is (and the chemo center). Great dentist about 4 miles away. My neurosurgeon is 35 miles away (Phoenix), and our primary care is 20 miles (used to be closer when we lived in Chandler, but now we live in Gilbert). Except for the neuro stuff (which is a recent addition) all of our doctors are less than 20 miles away.

Not sure I would like oil heat. A gas furnace won't work? I'm pretty sure a heat pump won't work (no heat to extract from the outside air!). I seem to recall a few years back that there were issues getting oil delivery (I forget why).

I'm used to central air. The mechanisms are isolated (blowers in closets, condensers outside), and we really don't hear anything when the system comes on. Window A/C units are pretty noisy, in my limited experience.

Of course, by my standards maybe it never gets hot in Vermont. We keep our house around 78F in the summer. Does it get that hot? How's the humidity? Ours is ~8% today. And 111F(!!!). Condensers dry the air, so humidity inside is pretty low even when it's humid outside (our monsoon gets about to maybe 40% humidity, I think, which at 105F is pretty brutal). It may be higher in the winter, but you don't notice it because it's a lot cooler.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 3
I would think a retired person would emphasize access to medical care. Quality medical care.

This was a major item in our "requirements" list when we were looking around for where we wanted to retire to.

Living in Chicago for 30+ years, first item was strap a snow shovel onto the car roof and drive south until somebody pointed at it and said "What is that?"

Where we settled on, hoards of baby-boomer retirees were/are doing the same thing, and bringing their money --and demands-- down here with them. So doctors are attracted to this area like lions to a waterhole.
Local hospitals have just about everything. For major things like heart surgery and major cancer, huge regional medical center just 50 miles away.


Winters are mild, snows maybe 1/4" a year. Summertime, central air conditioners handle the heat.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
If you are retired you should be retired. Done. Kaput. The end. El Fin.

Dunno. I retired at 53. Haven't had a job since. But I do love to gamble. If I make a lot of money gambling then does it cease to be entertainment and becomes a job? I don't think so.

And is it different if I gamble in the stock market from my kitchen rather than going to Las Vegas?

-IGU-
(retired, but making more money than I ever did working)
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 13
Currently have a dividend growing portfolio of around $2.1M throwing off around $96k or 4.5% yield. One could say a withdrawal rate of 0%.

Don't be absurd. Your withdrawal rate is 4.5%. The fact that your portfolio is appreciating by way of dividends rather than stock appreciation is irrelevant. The dividends don't just magically appear from nowhere.

-IGU-
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
If I make a lot of money gambling then does it cease to be entertainment and becomes a job? I don't think so.

Well, in some respects I gamble as well if you consider my $3 winnings occasionally on the course.

(retired, but making more money than I ever did working)

Me too but it ain't from golf. Way more.

Regards,

ImAGolfer (retired '03)
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
Smurfdogg:

Well, let's see...

First off, those lot sizes you mention obviously are in a city or town. A fraction of an acre wouldn't cut it for us! As I said, our home is on 11 acres of mostly woods, and we really wanted that for privacy and quiet. Whatever suits you, of course. Prices don't sound that different, depending on locale.

You speak of places with "less to do", and that IS a difference that may mean a lot to some people, but not to us. We do not go to "shows" or bars at all. Theaters are admittedly lacking here. We do (did) enjoy dining out. And, of course, right now most restaurants are only offering "pick up" or outside dining, though we have recently enjoyed inside seating a couple of times in places we know offer good food safely and proper service.

As for internet and TV, Comcast does serve the nearest city (Rutland) and some of the area in between, but not up here where we live. Landline phone (and internet), yes, but no cable. So we splurge on DirecTV satellite coverage for TV, because we depend on having various channels for entertainment, but some folks do still use "on the air" antennas.

Someone else mentioned medical services, and that IS important, especially for retirees like us. In fact, when we were considering where to look for a home up here, that was a key concern. We laugh when we recall that our agent immediately starting trying to show us homes right near the hospital! We quickly explained that we weren't THAT old; we wanted to be within reasonable distance, yes, but NOT in the town or city!

Thankfully, we are maybe 14 miles from a good regional hospital and all kinds of special services and dental services. We're in the middle of several ski areas, like Killington and Pico, so I can speak to orthopedic services especially, having had a hip replacement that was fabulous, done by people who have cared for a lot of broken bones!

Taxes exist, naturally. Here, you pay town taxes, and they can be fairly high, but the largest chunk goes to the town and then from them to the state, who doles out school money back to the towns. However, Vermont offers a "Homesteader" tax credit to those of us whose incomes are reasonably less, and that can cut real estate taxes considerably (better than 40% in our case). Your car is only taxed when you buy it, not annually, but you have to pay registration and inspection fees annually.

As I keep saying, to each his or her own. We love it here and have lived here for almost 20 years now. "Upstate New York" is pretty similar, I imagine. No place is perfect!

Vermonter
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
1poorguy:

You asked some of the same things as Smurfdogg, but a couple of others...

"Never gets hot in Vermont"? LOL! Oh yes it does -- and the humidity can add to that. We recently endured 6 straight days of 90+, and expect to have much of this week in the high 80's and low 90's again. Temps in the winter have seemed more reasonable since we got here, for some reason, with zero or sub-zero readings not all that common.

People use all kinds of HVAC energy -- oil, propane, even electric. And I know some people who recently installed a heat pump and swear by it. Solar panels MAY appeal to some, but not to us at our age. Had those been available, with the discounts offered, 20 years ago, we might have been interested, but not now. Oil is no problem for us and hasn't been all the time we've been here. Our furnace DID have to be replaced a year or two after we moved in, but seems good now (knock on wood, as they say).

We have a 275-gallon oil tank in the basement, with filler pipe outside, of course, and the oil company we use does a great job of filling it automatically. Pricewise, the cost for our contract this coming year is a lot less than it was in past years, so that's a break.

Unfortunately, we got hit this year with a new legal requirement to replace the oil tank. If you did not meet the requirements, NO oil company could service you! It was fine and had no leaks or damage, but was on cement blocks on the poured concrete floor, and had been for 25-30 years, and the new law requires that the tank sit on its own steel feet! That had us upset for a bit, but our company nicely pointed out that the State of Vermont also offered a generous "credit" that would virtually cover all or most of the total replacement cost if we applied. We went through the formalities, got the required quotes, and the job was done at no cost to us.

A cold water tank sits down there, too, to store what our submersible pump draws from a 100-ft well out in back.

People planning to move here -- or anywhere, for that matter -- need to check on state and local laws before buying.

Vermonter
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Vermonter,

Thanks. My quick research indicates housing can be pretty cheap compared to previous locations I've lived. It isn't considered "retirement friendly" with regards to taxes but that depends on your situation.

At this point in life, I'm just confused what I will do and the virus just makes it that much more confusing.

I've never had oil heat but my brother does in Maryland. He hasn't had any major issues. I've had anything from heat pumps, gas/radiator and gas/forced hot air. Some are cheaper (although that changes over the years), some feel warmer, some seem to have much drier air.

A younger lady (now 29) once sent me a text message "Becoming an adult is just too much responsibility". I never really had that thought in my life until the last year or two. Decisions that were easier becomes more complicated with family, especially aging family members and trying to figure out jobs and retirement places. Obviously somewhat minor issues in the scheme of problems people face.

Thanks.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
BTW, I think "t" said "Scot Burns' or was it someone else's assertion that you can't live on Social Security is pure BS."

I agree.

For various reasons, we were forced to both retire at 62, which yields a minimal SS payment forever. I get a small pension of less than $400/month, and she gets none. Her SS income is only half of mine, so we're not "well off". However, we manage pretty well, really, and have to pay over $400/month for Medigap coverage (for both combined) to handle the 20% not paid by Medicare. Thankfully, that and Medicare have covered all of our medical costs -- except dental, which is huge and often not easily paid for. We also pay property taxes, support our church, donate some to certain charities, and eat pretty well.

Depending on your lifestyle, I'd say a couple CAN live on SS.

Vermonter
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Vermonter --

We decided several years ago to focus on the worst winters we have experienced, the political climate, etc. whenever anyone asks about where we live. While we hope it has dissuaded a few, it doesn't seem to have helped much recently -- $400K homes are flying off the market. Of course, the ski hill shut down just before spring skiing, so not quite as much time to proselytize.

For example: there are only 24 beds in our local hospital; everything shuts down on Sunday; most of the restaurants cannot serve alcoholic beverages other than beer and wine; you aren't a "local" unless your great-grandparents settled here; a substantial portion of the valley is threatening to vote against a supplemental levy for our schools because the mascot is being changed; the number of covid-19 cases has double in the last week; and so on. We do okay with it, but there are significant challenges to living here.

Kathleen
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Currently have a dividend growing portfolio of around $2.1M throwing off around $96k or 4.5% yield. One could say a withdrawal rate of 0%.

Don't be absurd. Your withdrawal rate is 4.5%. The fact that your portfolio is appreciating by way of dividends rather than stock appreciation is irrelevant. The dividends don't just magically appear from nowhere.

-IGU-


I knew that would tweak someone.

Yes it is 4.5%. The point is it is a smooth, predictable appreciation. And with growing dividends, estimated to double every 8-9 years. Stock market cratered 30%, I slept well at night. Well, was a little anxious because I was preparing to back the truck up and load up on more dividend stocks. If I was totally dependent on capital gains, not so much. Don't care too much about my portfolio value as long as the dividends keep coming.

To each their own.

JLC
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Vermonter,

I'm glad you love where you live. I would love to live on 11 acres or even 3 for that matter. It's all a matter of finding the right house in the right location...also the extra acreage around here can cause your prop taxes to fly high into the five figures. We currently live in more of a suburban setting than before. But we've lived on country roads where the power would go out quite often and getting to the main roads went from being a five minute ride to a 25 minute ride due to ice. That and various other reasons led us to live in a more populated area. I would love to live in a secluded spot for at least half the year.

Thanks for your info.

SD
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Heh...I've done yard work in 90F heat. 80F is just above where we set our thermostat in the summer.

But I suspect it's a lot drier here.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
We decided several years ago to focus on the worst winters we have experienced, the political climate, etc. whenever anyone asks about where we live. While we hope it has dissuaded a few, it doesn't seem to have helped much recently -- $400K homes are flying off the market. Of course, the ski hill shut down just before spring skiing, so not quite as much time to proselytize.

Hi Kathleen,
But we live in a beautiful place! I couldn't afford to move here today, but I bought my house 20 years ago, so I'm sitting pretty now. As you well know, there's no such thing as a $400K house on my side of the hill. Thankfully the property tax rate in WY is incredibly low. We'll stay here another 10 years until the kids are out of school, and then perhaps move to enjoy the view of the Tetons from your side.

I never do get tired of the view. Even if I do get tired of shoveling the snow sometimes.

Tim
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
I'm glad you love where you live. I would love to live on 11 acres or even 3 for that matter. It's all a matter of finding the right house in the right location...also the extra acreage around here can cause your prop taxes to fly high into the five figures. We currently live in more of a suburban setting than before. But we've lived on country roads where the power would go out quite often and getting to the main roads went from being a five minute ride to a 25 minute ride due to ice. That and various other reasons led us to live in a more populated area. I would love to live in a secluded spot for at least half the year.

Thanks for your info.

SD


---------------------------------

Smurfdogg - perhaps you ought to consider Texas. I live about 60 miles North of Houston - out in country, on a two lane blacktop road, 32 acres with a pretty nice barndominium, property taxes are about $8,000 per year, no income tax, 8.25% sales tax. Electric service is pretty reliable, cell phone and internet are minimally acceptable. Nearest "Big" city with Lowes, Home Deport, Walmart, lots of restaurants, etc is about 12 miles away.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Tim --

Even if I do get tired of shoveling the snow sometimes.

But once you are retired you don't HAVE to plow out at 5 or 6 in the morning -- you can wait until after a proper breakfast or you can just wait until the next day ... or week. It's not nearly as big a chore when you aren't under time constraints.

As you well know, there's no such thing as a $400K house on my side of the hill.

Yes, our son (working from our place during covid) was comparing notes on expensive homes with his friends in Chicago, Minneapolis, and Houston one evening. His examples of JH properties "won" easily.

On a different note, did you ever find some windows that fit what you needed?

Kathleen
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 10
I do love to gamble. If I make a lot of money gambling then does it cease to be entertainment and becomes a job?

If you do it because you like to, and can skip doing it when you don't feel like it: Not a job
If you do it because you have to: A job
If you do it because you are compelled to even though you're losing money: An addiction
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
On a different note, did you ever find some windows that fit what you needed?

Windows, sigh. That remains on the "we really should fix that" list. We picked windows but then stalled on how to address the interior trim.

A couple of weeks ago I noticed carpenter ants trailing in and out of our front exterior wood steps. I looked closer and the entire staircase is eaten up, close to collapse. I tore it all out and have ordered lumber to rebuild it. That, of course, led to the discussion of replacing the deck railing, which was pretty old and had some rot, so ordered that lumber too.

Next week I'll finish the demolition, and only hope I don't find any more carpenter ant infestations in the house siding or framing.

It's always something!

Tim
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Probably too late, but I might consider one of those lumber substitutes. Like they have in Yellowstone. Looks like lumber, but it's basically a plastic/composite. Carpenter ants (and bees, and termites) don't like it. And you never have to refinish it or worry about rot.

I forget the name of the product. I should try to find it again since I am germinating an idea what will require lumber, or the product I can't think of the name of.

1poorguy
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0

Probably too late, but I might consider one of those lumber substitutes. Like they have in Yellowstone. Looks like lumber, but it's basically a plastic/composite. Carpenter ants (and bees, and termites) don't like it. And you never have to refinish it or worry about rot.

I forget the name of the product. I should try to find it again since I am germinating an idea what will require lumber, or the product I can't think of the name of.

1poorguy


And I wonder how safe that stuff is? I'm only saying that based on a few new things that ended up being dangerous such as fire-retardant plywood and the polybutylene pipes.

Hopefully it is safe and more proven than those were.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/os-xpm-1990-04-11-90041...

A fire-retardant plywood that has become a standard building material in town house developments in the last decade has now been found to decompose after only a few years, leaving homeowners and builders with leaky and unsafe roofs and large repair bills.

The plywood, called FRTP, for fire resistant treated plywood, has been used in the roofs of a million housing units east of the Mississippi, according to the National Association of Home Builders.

Since the problems were discovered in New Jersey several years ago, scores of lawsuits have been filed against makers, suppliers and insurers.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
I've looked at TREX and the like, but it's not structural in nature, and so won't work for the staircase framing, which is what the ants ate. We're replacing the railings with cable rails...if the ants can eat the stainless steel, they're welcome to it!
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
1poorguy regarding lumber substitutes...

And you never have to refinish it or worry about rot.

That's what they said about our cedar fence but ants loved it.

I see vinyl fences all over the place...broken..with green algae.

I have a fiberglass door that faded...now how to restain it?

Just saying...
what they 'say' isn't always time tested. :-)

nag
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Plastic is plastic.

I have aluminum siding on my house....put it on in the 80’s...looks great.

I have vinyl siding on my garage and large storage house...put on in the 90’s...slight sagging here and there, broken off pieces due to yard guy’s string trimmer and gutter guys ripping off old gutters.

I have vinyl window and some bind when moving windows up and down.

I had this huge deck put on the house in the 80’s, replacing a small brick and concrete patio with a nice wrought iron fence around it...I wished I had never had this deck built....it’s a maintenance nightmare with splinters and warping...pain in my neck. Give me masonry or give me headaches with wood and vinyl.

Lucky Dog
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Retirement at 30/40 is just not remotely realistic for a vast number of people. You need an inheritance, cashing in on stock options/business sale or have a very good paying job.

For us it was retiree health care at 55. Given pre-existing conditions, that was necessary.

IP
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 8
Shame to remove yourself from the human gene pool and brag about it.

Sadly there are parents out there whose kids would have been much better off doing this. Some people feel pressured by society to have kids. It's a valid choice not to do so, and I totally applaud the insight required to do that.

IP,
with two great kids we chose to have and are grateful we did, but they cost a whole lot more than $250K each and were the hardest, most satisfying job we ever had
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 7
Neither of you had any kids.

Well, I had 2 kids and I wouldn’t sell them for a million bucks!





$2 million and we can start negotiating.

$3 million and they’re yours.

AW
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Well, I had 2 kids and I wouldn’t sell them for a million bucks!

Maybe it's time for option trading?

Pete
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1

Well, I had 2 kids and I wouldn’t sell them for a million bucks!
$2 million and we can start negotiating.
$3 million and they’re yours.


Heh. When our kids were little and misbehaved, we would threaten to pin a $20 bill to their shirt and drop them off at the mall.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
AdrianC wrote: The table is unreadable on my ipad. It's formatted with no spaces between columns.

Pro Tip, Adrian: Copy and paste the table into Pages and voila - it is formatted correctly and you can easily read it.

BB
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
>>AdrianC wrote: The table is unreadable on my ipad. It's formatted with no spaces between columns.<<

Pro Tip, Adrian: Copy and paste the table into Pages and voila - it is formatted correctly and you can easily read it.

BB


-------------------

Assuming you know what "Pages" is and have the software installed.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Pages is an Apple word processing app that comes with iOS and is automatically installed on all iPads and iPhones.

Ira
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
bighairymike wrote: Assuming you know what "Pages" is and have the software installed.

It's on the iPad and is part of Apple iWork (Apple's version of Microsoft Office, and Pages is the Apple version of Word).

Hard to imagine an Apple user not being familiar with the basic software on their devices, but I suppose it is possible. If running Word, the same holds true - copy and paste the table from the blog post Scott Burns wrote and "voila" it becomes correctly formatted.

If one doesn't know of either Word or Pages - then I'm at a loss...being that we are in year 2020 and Pages has been out since 2005, Word has been out since 1983. ;-)

BB
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 2
Hard to imagine an Apple user not being familiar with the basic software on their devices, but I suppose it is possible.

----------------

It appears it is also hard for some to imagine there are real people in this world who are not Apple users.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 12
Hard to imagine an Apple user not being familiar with the basic software on their devices, but I suppose it is possible.

I have used iPhones and iPads for years. Never knew what Pages and many other Apple apps do.

PSU
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
bighairymike wrote: It appears it is also hard for some to imagine there are real people in this world who are not Apple users.

Wow! You lost me on that one, big hairy.

My response was to the OP - Adrian - who owns an iPad, therefore is an Apple user via owning and using that device. The majority of folks who do use Apple devices and may be unaware of the iWork suite which includes Pages usually is a result of having used Word for so many years. Point being was not to turn any of this into any sort of a Wintel vs. Mac argument, but rather - to help Adrian be able to read Scott's table with proper formatting no matter what platform Adrian uses.

I think if you knew my history on the investing forums here at TMF, you would realize I was always very pro-PC when it came to investing - especially during the 1990's with Intel, Microsoft, Dell, etc... . The former two investments I still own - and for good reason.

BB
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
bighairymike wrote: It appears it is also hard for some to imagine there are real people in this world who are not Apple users.

Wow! You lost me on that one, big hairy.

My response was to the OP - Adrian - who owns an iPad, therefore is an Apple user via owning and using that device. - BruceBrown


----------------

Sorry, I didn't pick up on your reply being specific to Adrian. You knew he was an Apple user but I did not so I misinterpreted the scope of your post.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 1
Hard to imagine an Apple user not being familiar with the basic software on their devices, but I suppose it is possible.

I have used iPhones and iPads for years. Never knew what Pages and many other Apple apps do.

PSU


That's cool.

It is usually due to either your use of another suite (such as Microsoft's Word for your word processing needs), or your workflow doesn't ever include the need to do any word processing or use any of the other parts of the suites.

The most popular suites available today include, but are not limited to...

Microsoft 365
Apple iWork
Google's Docs/G-Suite
Apache's Open Office
Libre Office
Adobe Creative Suite

Just from my academic teaching job alone over the past 17 years, I now utilize Microsoft 365, iWork and the Google G-Suite. Probably use Powerpoint the most for classroom presentations since I am so used to it (but I do use Apple's Keynote as well from time to time), bounce back and forth between Word and Pages the most for exams, documents, performance programs, letters of recommendation, research, and Google for online scheduling and textbook ordering. A healthy mix of Excel and Google spreadsheets for budgets and reports, grading, scoring, etc... . And of course heavy use of Adobe pdf. It's all good.

It all depends on what one uses their devices for with their individual workflow.

This being the retirement investing board, it could very well be that many are out of the workforce and devices are used primarily for phone calls, texting, taking pictures, internet browsing, a few favorite third party apps, and watching streaming media (youtube, Disney+, AppleTV+, Netflix, etc...).

I've been utilizing word processing since 1985 in my work and private computer use, so color me guilty of assuming most who use their computing devices are familiar with doing some word processing work. If not, there are plenty of tutorials available online for anyone who wants to explore the software they have on their devices to determine if they want or need to ever use it.

At the very least, I am always curious and check out every piece of software that comes pre-installed on all of my devices from the get go. I'd be the same if I bought a Tesla... ;-)

BB
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 9
I have used iPhones and iPads for years. Never knew what Pages and many other Apple apps do.

PSU

That's cool.

It is usually due to either your use of another suite (such as Microsoft's Word for your word processing needs), or your workflow doesn't ever include the need to do any word processing or use any of the other parts of the suites.


I'm on my third iPhone and have three iPads around. I have never touched Pages or Numbers, not because I don't do those functions but because I only do them on a computer with a proper keyboard and mouse, and that is a PC. Word, occasionally, but Excel daily. The idea of using a word processor, spreadsheet or other sophisticated software without those essentials - and a large screen! - makes me shudder. I imagine that if I were a MAC user I might sometimes venture into the tools on iOS for something super basic, but certainly not to do real work.
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 5
I'm on my third iPhone and have three iPads around. I have never touched Pages or Numbers, not because I don't do those functions but because I only do them on a computer with a proper keyboard and mouse, and that is a PC. Word, occasionally, but Excel daily. The idea of using a word processor, spreadsheet or other sophisticated software without those essentials - and a large screen! - makes me shudder. I imagine that if I were a MAC user I might sometimes venture into the tools on iOS for something super basic, but certainly not to do real work.

Yes. My iPad is an entertainment device, not a work device.

PSU
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 3
RHinCT writes: I'm on my third iPhone and have three iPads around. I have never touched Pages or Numbers, not because I don't do those functions but because I only do them on a computer with a proper keyboard and mouse, and that is a PC. Word, occasionally, but Excel daily. The idea of using a word processor, spreadsheet or other sophisticated software without those essentials - and a large screen! - makes me shudder. I imagine that if I were a MAC user I might sometimes venture into the tools on iOS for something super basic, but certainly not to do real work.

Understood. Not all users complete their work flow to the point they need to be able to access their documents and files across multiple devices from many places. Many do, though. I am constantly on the go from classroom to classroom to lecture hall, to another campus, to home, to office, to travel, conferences, etc... where a lot of workflow transpires outside of the time sitting at a desk. I also run spreadsheets daily and haven't viewed them on anything larger than a 13" monitor over the past 17 years. My wife is also constantly on the go doing her speech language pathology and uses a laptop, iPad, and iPhone with all of her specific niche software.

However...

Just wanted to point out how fast technology evolves and changes. Apple's newer iPad Pros work with the magic keyboard with trackpad, have mouse support, pack the punch of a much faster processor, have models with 11" and 12.9" screens and handle most people's workloads compared to a laptop. You can hook them up to a large monitor, your TV, and of course a boardroom/classroom projector. Not all careers involve the use of their devices only sitting at a desk using a desktop. Portability and mobility is a large target market of which various models of iPads could be a potential solution for a wide variety of users.

https://www.apple.com/ipad/

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/24/apple-ipad-pro-2020-review-i....

I didn't mean to offend anyone regarding knowledge of various software such as Pages or Word on their devices. We all use the tools we need and know how to use to complete our workflow. Obviously, I can see how my comment about Word being around since 1983 and Pages since 2005 did offend some by saying how I was at a loss that users were not familiar with them in the year 2020.

The original point of the post in this thread was to help AdrianC who was having difficulty reading Scott's table due to his formatting in his blog post. I was as well, and simply copied and pasted his table into a word processing document and the table appeared with the proper formatting. So I was simply attempting to give him a tip on how to view it as he might run into a similar situation in the future as not all bloggers use proper formatting for the web when they post tables. That's why I wrote...

Pro Tip, Adrian: Copy and paste the table into Pages and voila - it is formatted correctly and you can easily read it.

It was never intended on my part to be any kind of a discussion or argument of one platform over another (PC vs. Mac). Those days are long gone, IMO. Rather, I was just pointing out a way AdrianC could view Scott's table.

BB
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
Pro Tip, Adrian: Copy and paste the table into Pages and voila - it is formatted correctly and you can easily read it.

It was never intended on my part to be any kind of a discussion or argument of one platform over another (PC vs. Mac). Those days are long gone, IMO. Rather, I was just pointing out a way AdrianC could view Scott's table.


I appreciate you trying to help, Bruce, but it didn't work. In Pages on the iPad the table is even worse. And I'm not about to mess around with it. Looks fine on my Windows PC :-)
Print the post Back To Top
No. of Recommendations: 0
I appreciate you trying to help, Bruce, but it didn't work. In Pages on the iPad the table is even worse. And I'm not about to mess around with it. Looks fine on my Windows PC :-)

Hmmmm. I just tried it again. Copied Scott's table and pasted it into a new document with Page and it automatically appears in table format.

https://support.apple.com/guide/pages-ipad/copy-text-and-obj...
Print the post Back To Top