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Good to see those unethical kiwis got slaughtered in the finals, couldn't imagine a more deserving outcome.

What a stupid points system when it produces a game like the one in Perth between the Proteas & kiwis, I mean why even bother playing the match?


JR Happy that the Proteas won.
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Good to see those unethical kiwis got slaughtered in the finals, couldn't imagine a more deserving outcome.

JR
One can only assume that you were outraged at the underarm bowling tactic the Oz team used some time ago. Also a couple of seasons ago the Oz team used exactly the same points tactic the Kiwis used - no doubt you were outraged again.
Also JR, one would have to ask whether the Oz captain would have chosen to have adopted the same tactics as Fleming did if he were in the same position - after all the Oz team are so ethical aren't they ??
Touche, I think JR !!
Regards
Harmy

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Harmy,
while I think JRs comment were a bit over the top I'd like to get a couple of points across.

The underarm bowling event and the points tactics used by Oz at the world cup was conducted within the rules as were SA and NZ tactics recently.

The difference is that Oz used these tactics to advance themselves.

In the recent examples SA used the tactics to advance NZ at the expense of Oz and the Kiwis used these tactics to advance SA at the expense of Oz.
It is one thing to use the rules to advance yourself but to use the rules so that another team gets advanced is a different matter.
There is a world of difference between the situations.
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Yep thats it Barcoo.

Why even play the game?

Thats as close to rigged match as you can get.

JR
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Thats as close to rigged match as you can get.

Barcoo/JR
"only used the rules to advance the team" - that's rich from you two !!
Yes - the Kiwis did get hammered by a better team - pity that Oz came last - must have been a humbling experience for you both.
My warmest regards
Harmy - (I am ROTFLMAO !!)
.
.
.
.(rolling on the floor laughing my a*rse off !!)
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The underarm bowling event etc etc......
The difference is that Oz used these tactics to advance themselves.


Barcoo
Be fair !! - the underarm bowl was to prevent the Kiwis from even having a chance to equal or exceed the Oz total. It was the last ball of the match - it was shameful, unsportsmanlike and a disgrace to cricket.
A fairer way would have been to have allowed the Oz bowler to have played fairly to his man and let the batsman and bowler determine the outcome of the match. The underarm bowl stank then and it stinks now.

I notice that both you and JR have studiously avoided answering my previous comment Also JR, one would have to ask whether the Oz captain would have chosen to have adopted the same tactics as Fleming did if he were in the same position - funny that !!
Of course !! - we all know what the answer would be don't we ??
Regards
Harmy




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I notice that both you and JR have studiously avoided answering my previous comment Also JR, one would have to ask whether the Oz captain would have chosen to have adopted the same tactics as Fleming did if he were in the same position - funny that !!

Personally I am 99.9% sure that Steve Waugh would not have done what Fleming did. He would have had the confidence in his team to play whoever else qualified.

Let's face it. As far as Fleming was concerned it was either payback or a lack of confidence in his team to be able to beat Oz in the finals.
Can you venture any other possible reason for what he did?

There is something I said that you studiously avoided.It is a totally different matter playing in a way to make sure your own team makes the finals, than it is playing in a way that makes sure team B (SA)makes the final instead of team A (Oz).
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Personally I am 99.9% sure that Steve Waugh would not have done what Fleming did.

Barcoo
You obviously have greater confidence in your team than I do. Given the Oz penchant for using any tactics which will ensure a win at any cost I doubt your summation.
This whole thread was raised by JR who, was not "over the top" as you so lightly put it - JR was at his most insulting, which is exactly what he intended his comments to be.
Splitting hairs over Fleming's action does not change one iota Australia's very questionable tactics over the years.
Lets face it Barcoo, the underarm bowl has now passed into sporting lore as a yardstick by which to measure any devious, unsportmanlike measure which a team uses to win. That Oz "sportsmen" chose to put winning before sportmanship is something Oz supporters will have to bear for a very long time.
Learn to live with it - it's going to be with you for a long time.
Regards
Harmy
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pity that Oz came last - must have been a humbling experience for you both.
My warmest regards
Harmy - (I am ROTFLMAO !!)


Yep you & Fleming both on the floor laughing I'm sure, you see thats the point you Kiwis enjoy beating the Aussies too much. While the Aussie's total aim is to win no matter whom we play.

Flemings decision was gutless & vindictive.

the underarm bowl has now passed into sporting lore as a yardstick by which to measure any devious, unsportmanlike measure which a team uses to win.

Which has now been surpassed by Flemings unsportsmanlike behavour.

That Oz "sportsmen" chose to put winning before sportmanship is something Oz supporters will have to bear for a very long time.
Learn to live with it - it's going to be with you for a long time.


We have now you chaps need to bear the shame of your pathetic captains decision.....for a very long time.

I notice that both you and JR have studiously avoided answering my previous comment

MMMMMM what about a reply to my question...asked twice, I mean why even bother playing the match?

JR was at his most insulting, which is exactly what he intended his comments to be.

Insulting you could only feel insulted by what I said if you felt that was the truth.

Imagine the mighty all blacks throwing a game like that I don't think so, great proud teams always try to win. A team that trys not to win is not great or proud just desperate & pathetic.

JR







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Hi fellas

I realise that as an Englishman, and not really a team sport fanatic, my thoughts on this OT cricket thread might be as welcome as a ham sandwich at a Barmitzvah, but......... isn't it time that both sets of opponents realised that this is just a team sport and not a war.

Maybe I've got it wrong and you all have the real perspective on this and just genuinely like to trade insults as a bit of fun in its own right. If this is so then just ignore this post and carry on the interesting discussion. My feeling however, is that none of the posters here reads the others ripostes and gets a genuine smile out of it.

It is often said that team sports are a substitute for war. I have to totally disagree. They should be the absolute opposite of that and if we start to forget that fact, for whatever reason (usually amazing amounts of money these days) then we are ALL poorer for the fact.

Team sport, particularly international teams sports should ALWAYS be first about mutual respect and fair play. This is not war. However much the media might like to play this aspect up, team sport is just a feeble pastiche in this regard.

I am not a pacifist ........... my watchword on this has always been to quote a famous saying "Walk quietly, but carry a big stick". BUT that only applies to a REAL threat and then only when there is no alternative but to use that big stick.

Sport should be just that,...... sport.

If you can't play within the rules and more importantly, within the spirit of the rules then all you gain is a win.........but is it worth it? A win at all costs is the slippery slope to the end of what most people get a great deal of enjoyment out of.

"Play up and play the game", should be the real watchword of our sporting heroes........not "win at any cost and take home an even bigger pay cheque".

Don't let any of these professional "sportsmen" con you into thinking that winning is all that matters in sport today. It is not their sport.....it is ours. If we can't watch the end of every match and first get a great buzz from the effort, skill and spectacle that both sides have produced for our entertainment, then we should count that match as a loser......to both sides.

I don't really expect to find any really die-hard fanatic of sport to see any merit in the sentiments expressed by me. Unfortunately for them, every victory will be like a shot of heroin to an addict, temporary euphoria, followed by a burning desire for another win at all cost......any cost. To the guys on this board I sure that sport is a much better and more enjoyable pastime........even if some of the sportsmen representing them sometimes forget the fact.

Jon

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While the Aussie's total aim is to win

.....you forgot to add that it matters little how they achieve it.

JR
This subject is boring - feel free to post as many insults as you like I do not intend to respond.
Harmy

PS It is nice to know though that the country I will shortly be living in has such a squeaky clean sporting image.

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isn't it time that both sets of opponents realised that this is just a team sport and not a war

Jon
Not down here it isn't Jon - this is war all right. The pity of it is that the Kiwis have to play such low down dirty players on the other side of the Tasman - we would far sooner play the gentlemanly English any day.
Regards
Harmy

PS I jest, I jest, Jon !! The truth of the matter is that players these days have one eye on the purse and the next sponsorship deal. They want to win at any cost even if, at times, they use questionable tactics to achieve it. All players are human with human failings and fall to the temptation of doing something which they probably regret afterwards. There are times when simply pulling on a coloured jersey seems to bring out the worst in nationalisic tendencies in many people.
As far as sportsmanship is concerned Jon, what Jardine and Larwood did to Australia in the 1930's was not exactly cricket was it ??
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Harmy,
could you please answer the question and statement raised by me in the previous post.
I'll repeat them for you.

Let's face it. As far as Fleming was concerned it was either payback or a lack of confidence in his team to be able to beat Oz in the finals.
Can you venture any other possible reason for what he did?

There is something I said that YOU STUDIOUSLY AVOIDED.It is a totally different matter playing in a way to make sure your own team makes the finals, than it is playing in a way that makes sure team B (SA)makes the final instead of team A (Oz).
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Barcoo
Let's face it. As far as Fleming was concerned it was either payback or a lack of confidence in his team to be able to beat Oz in the finals.
Can you venture any other possible reason for what he did?


I have no idea what was in Flemings mind - and neither do you. Futhermore your statement that you were 99.9% sure that Waugh would not do a similar thing is laughable.

There is something I said that YOU STUDIOUSLY AVOIDED.It is a totally different matter playing in a way to make sure your own team makes the finals, than it is playing in a way that makes sure team B (SA)makes the final instead of team A (Oz).

It is called tactics Barcoo !! For some reason this whole subject seems to drive you to apoplexy !! Can't we please drop it ??
Regards
Harmy
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It doesn't drive me to apoplexy.
It just bloody annoys me when people misrepresent the facts and hold a huge chip on their shoulder about it.
Saying it's called tactics doesn't answer the point I am making. It is avoiding it and hoping it will go away.

I made a direct statement. How about you say whether you feel my statement is correct or not. I'll repeat it for you again.
It is a totally different matter playing in a way to make sure
your own team makes the finals, than it is playing in a way that makes sure team B (SA)makes the final instead of team A (Oz).
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Jon

Most of your post I agree with.

I have no problem with an Aus side losing & like you enjoy a good hard fought match no matter the sport or outcome.

The match we are talking about had non of that it was a premeditated decision by the KIwis not to win & infact to make sure they lost by enough to give the Sth Africans an extra point.This they did to make sure that the Aussie's couldn't make the finals.

Hey people paid to watch the match , people bet on the match etc
I just can't remember any team(in any sport) going into such a match with that intent.

I also think it backfired on them given the absolute thrashing they were handed out in the finals & I say they deserved it.

It don't say much(no confidence) about what you think of your fellow teammates when your captain acts in such a way, kinda like hey the only way we can get into the finals is to let the Proteas beat us.The Aussie way is hey we might not make the finals but by golly were gonna have a go.

The Kiwis should have had a go, they didn't they decided not to have a go, shame on them full stop.

IMO
JR
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It just bloody annoys me when people misrepresent the facts and hold a huge chip on their shoulder about it.

Barcoo
I do not have a chip on my shoulder -I do not know whether Waugh would have done the same thing as Fleming - I know the Oz team tried to do exactly the same thing a couple of seasons ago - the match rules allowed Fleming to do exactly as he did - I have yet to see it proved that the Oz team are better/worse/as good as sportsmen as the Kiwis/Proteas/Poms/Indians/Pakistanis etc etc etc etc.
JR made mention of my "emailing Waugh" and went off the handle over what I posted - it was supposed to humour, Barcoo, humour !! - and nothing else was intended.
Do you want to continue this thread ??
Do you want me to continue to raise the underarm bowling incident ??
Do you want me to raise the issue of the bribe taking allegations ??
I am sure there are plenty of unsavoury incidents I could find to antagonise you with.
I am equally sure that you could continue to poke the borax as the Kiwis. My personal view of cricket as a sport is that it can drop completely into the ocean without a trace - that is how much is really interests me.
I really would prefer to let this thing drop.
Regards
Harmy
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I know the Oz team tried to do exactly the same thing a couple of seasons ago
This is what I mean about misrepresenting facts. Really I probably can't blame you. You would probably just be swallowing some Kiwi journalists line.
Let me fill you in on the facts. The situation you are talking about was this.
Australia still won the game in question. This is the first big difference.
Australia did this (batted slowly) to attempt to qualify themselves for the finals, not to prevent someone else qualifying. This is the next big difference and the whole crux of my point.

Do you want me to continue to raise the underarm bowling incident ??
Really I can't see the point in that, you'd only be raising it in a spiteful defensive measure and we have both already agreed it was within the rules of the game.

Do you want me to raise the issue of the bribe taking allegations ??
Well you just did, didn't you? As I said in a spiteful defensive measure. You mean the allegations not proven, the very suspect allegations from a known criminal? The allegations from a man proven to be a liar? The allegations that these Aussies provided exactly the same information that Tony Greig supplies to up to 50 million people at the start of every Australian Test Match?

I really would prefer to let this thing drop.

Well how about you address my point? Which was (yet again)-

It is a totally different matter playing in a way to make sure your own team makes the finals, than it is playing in a way that makes sure team B (SA)makes the final instead of team A (Oz).
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Well how about you address my point? Which was (yet again)-

Barcoo
I have no intention of posting any more on this subject or of continuing this stupid point by point pedantic argument.
Peace to you Barcoo.
Regards
Harmy
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BArcoo,
I've followed this post with a little interest, but cannot understand why you continue to pursue it.
You said in defense of the underarm bowling that "we"(?)
have 'already agreed it was within the rules of the game.'
That is the precise point. The Fleming issue was and is (currently)
' within the rules of the game.'
Your statement that it is a 'totally different matter' in regards to why the tactic was used is really irrelevant.
All the actions that the points were raised about are , IMO, unsporting and a bit of a worry, but they all do it. BAstards.



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Your statement that it is a 'totally different matter' in regards to why the tactic was used is really irrelevant.

No, you are wrong. The "why" is sometimes the most important part of the equation. Not just in cricket either, in anything.
As to why I pursued that one single question/statement that harmy wouldn't answer, why not put the boot on the other foot and ask harmy why he wouldn't answer it (and still hasn't and now refuses to). The thread would have stopped ages ago if it had been addressed.
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why not put the boot on the other foot and ask harmy why he wouldn't answer it (and still hasn't and now refuses to). The thread would have stopped ages ago if it had been addressed

Barcoo
This whole matter was brought about by the offensive and insulting remarks by JR which were clearly addressed to me and to Kiwis in general. When he was flamed by me you then jumped in and added your two cents. JR it seems, could dish it out but he couldn't take it - that he has now flounced from the scene like the prima donna he is, is probably better for the harmony of the board.
I am, therefore, simply amazed that you still insist on trying to discuss this matter to the bitter end.
As far as I am concerned the pedantic points of principle that you are trying to establish are just that - pedantic points of principle of no concern except to you !! That you continue to obsess, and argue over "my cricket captain is better than your cricket captain" astounds me.
Let me put my view of cricket in the simplest possible way.
Having played the game in my early days I learnt enough to believe that if every bat, ball and stump were burned on the carcases of rotting camels it would be a fitting end to the game. The morons who watch the game are either in their dotage or lager louts who throw their beer cans onto the pitch when things don't go their way. As far as the players are concerned they also appear obsessed with the need to exhibit huggy-hug, kissy-kiss type male bonding whenever an oponent is given out. If they are like that on the pitch then God knows what they get up to in the after match showers when the soap is passed around.
It makes me sick to think of it.
Harmy
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"Having played the game in my early days I learnt enough to believe that if every bat, ball and stump were burned on the carcases of rotting camels it would be a fitting end to the game. "




Wish I could rec that post more than once !!!..



Only thing worse than watching probably drugged atheletes
run round in circles is watching sleazoid cricketers who take
bribes run up and down.

but hey ,that's just me----


Cheers,

FC.


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This whole matter was brought about by the offensive and insulting remarks by JR which were clearly addressed to me and to Kiwis in general.
Yes, I in no way support JR's comments on this.

When he was flamed by me you then jumped in and added your two cents.
I was not supporting JR at all. I was disagreeing with your comments that Australia had done a similar thing. I was defending Australian cricket from lies and half truths.

JR it seems, could dish it out but he couldn't take it - that he has now flounced from the scene like the prima donna he is, is probably better for the harmony of the board.
You are probably right. That is if the board survives the depletion of numbers.

As far as I am concerned the pedantic points of principle that you are trying to establish are just that - pedantic points of principle of no concern except to you !!
You are entitled to your opinion but if the point is so unimportant why not answer it when asked to?

That you continue to obsess, and argue over "my cricket captain is better than your cricket captain" astounds me.
I never said that.

I learnt enough to believe that if every bat, ball and stump were burned on the carcases of rotting camels it would be a fitting end to the game.
I can only assume that you were either hopeless or didn't understand it.
I on the other hand while being a very average type of player think that it is about the best game there is. Especially the "real" game ie Test cricket.

The morons who watch the game are either in their dotage or lager louts who throw their beer cans onto the pitch when things don't go their way.
I could choose to take this as a personal insult but I won't as it is not a accurate description of many patrons of the game.

If they are like that on the pitch then God knows what they get up to in the after match showers when the soap is passed around. It makes me sick to think of it.
You are being what you accuse JR of.

Look Harmy if you want to drop it, then drop it. We are allowed to have different thoughts to each other. The world would be pretty bloody boring if we were clones.
Forget about cricket and go back to watching the rugby boys stick their fingers up each others bums.
;-)
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Forget about cricket and go back to watching the rugby boys stick their fingers up each others bums.

Barcoo
Ok !! - that's a gotcha !!
Lets go back to trying to make a buck in the market. Have you thought any more about the Stockdoctor potential ?? If they can deliver better than a 30% return in a bad year (2001) then when the market turns around it should do even better.
Regards
Harmy
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If anyone out there is researching about how World Wars start,
look no further-----



We have it here in Microcosm ..








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If anyone out there is researching about how World Wars start,
look no further-----


No, no, no, Cas !! - just the boys having a little fun !!
Regards
Harmy

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Gee, now I know why this is called the All ORDINARY board ....

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Dont leave 21549 ---------------

we can do better, honest.

sometimes we talk about investing!!!

Cheers.

FC.
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