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https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snow...

There were about 2000 signatures when I signed earlier today and there are over 6000 now.

Peter
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...2000 signatures when I signed earlier today and there are over 6000 now

Those are some brave souls.

I hope they've filed all their tax returns and retained all their receipts for the last decade or so. They might need to produce them soon.

;-)
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nh I hope they've filed all their tax returns and retained all their receipts for the last decade or so. They might need to produce them soon.

If you actually believe this, wouldn't that call for action rather than protective cover?

Peter
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Those are some brave souls.

I hope they've filed all their tax returns and retained all their receipts for the last decade or so. They might need to produce them soon.



Can you pardon someone who hasn't been convicted of anything... yet?

In truth I'm surprised that anyone is surprised at this whole story. I'm reasonably sure that monitoring of foreigners internet and phones has been going on for a very long time and is especially useful for providing targets for the drones (Recall Bin Laden refused to use cellphones and insisted on couriers which eventually led to his downfall). It is a really small step to see who is on the other end of the line?


Any <there is always someone who has no idea... in this case that would be me> mouse
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Can you pardon someone who hasn't been convicted of anything... yet?

Yes.

Presidents do it all the time. Usually when the person being pardoned is a political ally or big campaign donor. Look up Bill Clinton's pardons and you'll get a better idea.

I seem to recall Ford pardoning the last president we had who so obviously used the government bureaucracy's invasive powers to go after his political foes. Remember that guy Richard Nixon?

Nixon was never convicted of anything - except in the court of public opinion, of course.

;-)
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Yes.

Presidents do it all the time. Usually when the person being pardoned is a political ally or big campaign donor. ...

...

Nixon was never convicted of anything - except in the court of public opinion, of course.



Oh I recall Nixon very well, we used to fly out of a lot of US Navy island military bases (Lajes, Bermuda, Kef (Iceland), Rosy Roads) back then and there would always be pictures of the commander in chief and of course the VP on the wall. First the VP's picture disappeared then the CIC picture disappeared. We found it rather amusing.

Still wouldn't a pardon bring on a flood of such "leaks" for people who want to get famous quick? I know it is a shocking comment but it is hard to fight a secret war that goes on constantly when nothing is secret. I recall that SOSUS gave us a major edge in the Cold War but had the Soviets fully know about it and its capability we would have lost that advantage. The Cuban Missile crisis was resolved without a war because Kennedy knew that the Soviets did not have the touted ICBM capability that they claimed.

Perhaps y'all could just shoot or hang the guy first then pardon him?


Any <here to help no really> mouse
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now over 10k

Dave
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<<Still wouldn't a pardon bring on a flood of such "leaks" for people who want to get famous quick? I know it is a shocking comment but it is hard to fight a secret war that goes on constantly when nothing is secret.>>

Without the US Constitution, the US is nothing special at all - just another bunch of people fighting each other for individual advantage while their govt. fights to control them for its own advantage. If we don't work to preserve our freedoms, we will lose what's left of them. We had a lot more freedom under King George than we do now.

Ed.
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Eddy,

thanks for a very well thought out and written post.

Dave
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nh I hope they've filed all their tax returns and retained all their receipts for the last decade or so. They might need to produce them soon.

If you actually believe this, wouldn't that call for action rather than protective cover?


Yeah, you first.
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Yeah, you first.

Hee
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Look up Bill Clinton's pardons and you'll get a better idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Bill...

Also:

... four Hasidic Jews (convicted of "swindling $40 million in federal funds," whose commutation bore no connection, of course, to the surprising 1400 to 12 vote by the New Square Hasidic Jews in favor of Hillary for the Senate), ...

http://dwightmurphey-collectedwritings.info/bookreviews/book...

There was also a pardon for some guy who'd Swindled millions from people and fled the country. The pardon couldn't be said to be in exchange for a bribe because the millionaire gave the money to Clinton's presidential library and not directly to Clinton.
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nh I hope they've filed all their tax returns and retained all their receipts for the last decade or so. They might need to produce them soon.
---
If you actually believe this, wouldn't that call for action rather than protective cover?
---
Yeah, you first.


Yup. Step right up to get put on the same lists as the tea baggers that whine about Constitutional limits on government power (IRS scandal), and anti Iraqi war protesters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpo7n3izXAM

Steve
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It may just be my browser, but when I went to the "Pardon Edward Snowden" Petition link on the White House web site, it wouldn't allow me to sign the petition. It looks like they may have locked out any further signatures after the apparent 17,000+ they received before they pulled the plug. The message I received is shown below.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snow...

You've already signed this petition

Thank you for participating. Find other petitions you're interested in or start your own.

I wonder what happens when others try to go and sign the petition. If it remains frozen at 17,000+, I think it will be obvious that they pulled the plug.

;-)
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If it remains frozen at 17,000+, I think it will be obvious that they pulled the plug.

Or the powers that be launched a DOS attack.

Steve
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For those interested in the history of governments reading their citizens mail, I highly recommend "The Codebreakers" by David Kahn (don't get the 1973 paperback edition as it is abridged and not nearly as entertaining). While it delves a bit into techniques, this is more of a history book and very readable by mere mortals:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Codebreakers-Comprehensive-Communi...



Jeff
(Who cherishes his original from the 1960's)
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We had a lot more freedom under King George than we do now.

Whoa! Hold up, Ed. I'm not a big fan of unrestrained government secrecy myself and this whole thing has got me a little nervous, too, but let's be a little more circumspect about bandying about King George. Historically, the pre-revolution period got progressively worse for the colonists through the 1760s and early 1770s.

The Declaration of Independence says it best. The following are, among others, grievances by George:

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.


I don't think that "trust us" is a form of oversight, but this is NOT King George, either.

Pete
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(don't get the 1973 paperback edition as it is abridged and not nearly as entertaining).

Sure it's abridged, not censored?

Recall how the Smothers Brothers were pushed off the air?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smothers_Brothers#Controversies...

Steve
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I wonder what happens when others try to go and sign the petition. If it remains frozen at 17,000+, I think it will be obvious that they pulled the plug.

It's at > 18.6k now. You might have had a problem between the keyboard and the chair ;)
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Thank you for recommending this post to our Best of feature.

It's at > 18.6k now. You might have had a problem between the keyboard and the chair ;)



whafa

I was thinking either that or.... you don't think it might be the Mutt himself do you? }};-D


Any <nothing to see here folks, look away look away or else> mouse
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Any <nothing to see here folks, look away look away or else> mouse

No sweat. We have this covered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymSEibHKOgo

Steve
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It's at > 18.6k now. You might have had a problem between the keyboard and the chair

Thanks for checking, Whafa.

I'm using a Chrome browser that sometimes interacts in unexpected ways with particular web sites. It also could be something to do with Java or Flash.

Cheers.

;-)
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21k plus....we are watching...and they are watching and we are watching them watching.....

I can see that.

Dave
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I'm using a Chrome browser that sometimes interacts in unexpected ways with particular web sites. It also could be something to do with Java or Flash.

Main point being that nobody has pulled the plug on anything :)
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Can you pardon someone who hasn't been convicted of anything... yet?

Yes. The specific legal precedent I am aware of is Ford pardoning Nixon, but I'd be willing to bet there are others.
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I wonder what happens when others try to go and sign the petition. If it remains frozen at 17,000+, I think it will be obvious that they pulled the plug.

Well it's nearly 24,000 now. So either they didn't pull the plug, or they are doing so in a more sophisticated fashion to hide the fact (letting the number climb but at a progressively slower rate - reflecting "people losing interest" - designed to insure that time runs out before the threshold is reached.
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24.5k
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I wonder what happens when others try to go and sign the petition. If it remains frozen at 17,000+, I think it will be obvious that they pulled the plug.

When others try to sign the petition it triggers an automatic FISA warrant.


:)
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Without the US Constitution, the US is nothing special at all - just another bunch of people fighting each other for individual advantage while their govt. fights to control them for its own advantage.


I think that ship has already sailed.
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We had a lot more freedom under King George than we do now.

Pretty sure women didn't have "more freedom" under King George.

And pretty sure minorities didn't have "more freedom" under King George.

And pretty sure all people without property didn't have "more freedom" under King George.

And pretty sure even people with property who King George decided should put up, feed, and care for his soldiers in their homes didn't have "more freedom".

Almost positive that people thrown in jail without trial by King George's government, without access to a lawyer or even the courts, who were assigned punishment without due process of any kind didn't have "more freedom".

Even pretty sure people who were told what their taxation levels would be without any input or even possibility of input didn't think they had "more freedom."

So back to the original topic: while the kinds of data collection going on are abhorrent and unacceptable, it would be great if some of you "everything about government is wrong" types would get some sense of proportionality, because statements like those in italics make you look ridiculous.

Really.
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Without the US Constitution, the US is nothing special at all - just another bunch of people fighting each other for individual advantage while their govt. fights to control them for its own advantage. If we don't work to preserve our freedoms, we will lose what's left of them. We had a lot more freedom under King George than we do now.

WHile I agree with the sentiment expressed here, the last sentence is ridiculous and wrong.
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Another NSA camera found:
http://i.imgur.com/wiKJHR1.jpg
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Another NSA camera found:
http://i.imgur.com/wiKJHR1.jpg

DD,

ROFLMAO. Brilliant. With that nifty device, the government will be able to identify potential terrorists by their religion.

In addition, they can tell whether the subject is standing in a cold environment - and thus better judge the longitudinal coordinates for strikes by one of the famous Nobel Peace Drones.

As a bonus, the National Health Service will be able to use this NSA data to compile more accurate charts on physical attributes that would be otherwise subject to "self-reporting bias" (lying) on written questionnaires.

Good thing we trust these folks. LOL.

;-)
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