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JEDIKNIGHT,
Becky, I have never wished to be black. That answers your question. I do not wish to be white either. My folks are immigrants from another country, but I am happy being AMERICAN. I do not beleive in hyphenated Americanism. "African American" "irish AMerican", needs to be replaced by "American". A group of folks from diverse places, enjoying a common culture. (See..melting pot)
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My husband agrees with you 100%. I just feel that if a person feels better about him/her self with a hyphen, I'm not going to argue with them.
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Becky, personally, I enjoy your posts. You wont beleive what im about to tell you: 99% of time, I side with Conservatives. However, i think you and I might agree on some key issues:
*WTO, NAFTA, GATT, IMF. I 100% am proud to stand with the likes of Perot, Nader, and others on these issues. Another one, is Corporate sponsorship of the Presidential debates. That is sick to me.
I feel these global deals have sold out our industrial base to other Countries. On WTO for China, I think that will complete our failure on the world scene, and ensure the balance of power in the World changing against us, if it hasnt already.
The naive part of me wishes, that folks like us, and Americans in general, could debate these issues without slanderring each other. I wish we could find common ground on things, and see where we are apart.
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Well!
That is good news. There is a sweet person in there after all!
Look, if you are 'conservative' most of the time, we will disagree.
That's OK. Just don't talk about Liberals like we are poison--it was a long time coming for me. I can't be 'Black and White' on many issues,
I've seen too much grey.
But, I'm a watcher of politics for my new grandson--he deserves more than we have for him now. I'm looking ahead now and I don't like what I see. I'm frightened for him.

Also, FYI, I watch C-span most all day--usually the House. I hear all the hearings, not just the "clips", and I also know who is a knuckle-head and who is just earning his campaign money (BOTH SIDES).
Some even appear to care--but I'm sceptical.

Also glad to know you like the two men I did vote for!

Beckyz
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Becky...

Frankly, no need to declare peace. I was never at war.

If you mean discussing issues and ideals, without getting personal, sign me up please! :)
****

As far as my ill feelings for NAFTA, GATT, WTO, etc.

No, im not a sweet person. I know when I am getting my pocket picked, and these deals are dirty. They are thought up by global academic elites, many of whom never met a payroll in their lives.

I WISH so much that the Repub party would see my way on this. Given the chance, I think the case can be made, that even Reagan would have a problem with these deals.

I have now come to the conclusion, that NOTHING can be done about it. Picket signs are just another way for young kids to get dates.

In Michigan, where you live, whole cities, like Flint have been brought to its knees cause of these trade deals. I am a businessman, and I understand fully the motivation of spending less on labor. BUT, I will not do it at America's expense. I would be the 1st to pay more in taxes and prices, if it would stop these SHAFT-A type deals.

Why? Remember why Henry Ford was the 1st to pay his blue collar workers a good wage. It was NOT by Liberal Gov't mandate. It was NOT cause he had a good heart. His reason????

"So my workers may buy MY cars"!!! *Henry Ford*

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNGIHT

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Jedi,

Sorry to butt in again, but what do you- a businessman- think of this:

Want to establish a factory in Mexico? The energy bills would be cheaper, the land would be cheaper, building costs, etc.

BUT

American countries must pay American prevailing wages for services rendered.

That would help the Mexican economy. (remember what Henry Ford said!)

Workers employed there would be less inclined to cross the border to make and send the money south. They would already be making it at home.

Eventually (if my notion is correct) Mexican corporations would be able to charge more for goods and services and be consequently able to afford higher wages. (depending on the level of immersion of this idea by American companies)

I've heard arguments against this idea by people who have come up with obsticles that were fairly sound, but didn't come from businessmen.

Would it be possible to open a factory (let's say) in Mexico, pay the local workers American wages, and still save money overall?

I await your response.

k
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Khalou...

"Want to establish a factory in Mexico? The energy bills would be cheaper, the land would be cheaper, building costs, etc."

*Yes, I am in business, and here is my opinion, plain and simple: As long as methods are honest, PROFIT IS GOOD, MORE PROFIT IS BETTER. Profit is not a dirty word, that is the only reason to invest money in a business, OR a stock for that matter.

That being said, NO I do not want to set up shop in Mexico, if it means closing shop here in the USA. I am an American, before I am a businessman.
*****

I understand, and even follow the logic: If American companies have to pay Mexicans, American wages, soon they will have money to buy things with. I reject this.

*NO ONE should be able to order America around.

In summary, it is not our obligation to build Mexico's wages. What is happening, is simple: Our $20/hr jobs will go to 8 bucks. Mexico's $1 jobs will go upto $7.50! Makes you feel real good right? Wrong. This one world stuff is for the birds.

We are the biggest consumer of goods in the world, and that is our ace. WE should dictate our own trade policy. Not have it fed to us by folks sitting in Brussels, New York, or Geneva.

USE THE FORCE!!! JEDIKNIGHT

*WHY open up shop in Mexico, and pay them American wages? If that were the case, why not set up shop in an enterprise zone in one of our inner cities. THAT would come back to us tenfold.

*It is not our duty as America, to build middle classes in other countries. Our brave soldiers died for our freedoms. Our Founding Fathers bled for us to have free enterprize in this Country.

America let entrepreneurs thrive, people like Ford, Perot, etc. If other countries want to have good wages, then let them figure it out for themselves.
******

Khalou, we have gutted our industries. In WW2, GM plants built planes for our Navy to fly. In 50 years, do we want to beg Mexico to make weapons for us??? 3 weeks ago, Bush promised Subs to Taiwan. Guess what? We are now begging Italy to give us the licensing for this type of submarine.





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As far as Subs to Taiwan is concerned, I think of it as an investment. China is going to fall. We have a bottom-line thinking administration now and whtever they're doing trying to stir it up with that government will be good for business. The Soviet Union fell because the people wanted Big Macs and Levis while their gov was telling them that all that was 'evil'. Who knows what that sort of thing can lead to?

With regard to Mexico; Those people are being exploited as well. They are used to making nothing for breaking their backs all day. What if they could make a pretty good living somewhere? What if a worker could suddenly be able to afford Big Macs and Levis? Don't you think there would be McDonald's and Gap stores opening up? Starbucks, JC Penny's, Foot Locker?

Strip malls could thrive!

I think you've got me confused with someone who is concerned about helping foreign countries. I want a larger consumer base!

Companies that opened up shop there would NOT take away from work here. The profit margin would support the facility. (I'm a UNION worker) What is labor worth? Whatever the market will bear!

Remember the Union-busting of the drywall hangers? They went on strike one day and Management found a bunch of guys that were willing to do that HARD WORK (the hardest I've ever seen on a construction site) for less. The new drywall hangers were making more than they had ever made in their lives. Management was making profits up the ying yang as a result. Evereyone was happy.

Until these 'new' drywall hangers started looking around. They were working twice as hard as most trades and getting a small percentage of what others on the job were making.

Know what happened? The UNIONIZED and are now making EXACTLY what the other drywall hangers were making!

Whatever happened to those folks? The other drywall hangers? I guess they found other work- hopefully.

What have we learned?

That when the America you pledge alliegance to is innundated with persons who are willing to work for less than what's fair, American workers suffer. According to their home economy, it's a pretty good wage, but it ISN'T. Not according to our standards!

So, what do you do? You try to 'bust' the neigboring economy's tendency to pay poverty wages 'because they can.' Because they CAN'T when a real live American company opens it's doors inside of it's borders. Who want's a worker who's worried about his sick child or the fact that he might not make the rent while he's on the job? "There's plenty more where he came from!" Well, there ain't! Because most people in the region just signed on to the NIKE plant in Mexicali!

Remember Ross Perot's comment on the 'sucking sound' to the south? There is an economical vaccumm there. The competition for labor in Mexico could easily level that out.

If you wanna do business with the big boys, you gotta give your employees liveable wages. If not, we don't mind producing EVERYTHING for ya. Heck, eventually we just might annex Mexico as an industrial park!

Don't sell us short- Whatever we do in Mexico won't alter our wages one iota. The Unions will see to that. A house will still cost what it costs, medical insurance will still cost what it costs, and the Unions will still insure that American workers can afford all that and then some. But let's just see what wonders we can perform by the economic enforcement of the American dream on our neighbors to the south.

Don't worry- they won't influence us at all- we can, and should influence them to the hilt.

As things are, they are influencing us by the very nature of their economy. (sheesh, this is sounding like 'us vs them'. That's not my intention!) Believe me, the more like ours their economy becomes, the less like theirs OUR economy will become. I don't really think that illegal alien workers are 'ruining' our economy, but the fact that there are people here who are willing to work for less than it takes to live here is somewhat detrimental, don't you think?

We don't have this issue with Canadians. Their workers can afford stuff. We can wait for another hundred years or so for them to figure all this out, OR.. we can force the issue.

My original question was, "Can an American corporation open a factory (let's say) and pay American wages and still make out like a bandit?" If so, why not? If not, nevermind. :o)

k

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The Soviet Union fell because the people wanted Big Macs and Levis while their gov was telling them that all that was 'evil'.

Well, I guess this was part of the reason. The other reason was the entire government and social order went bankrupt. The reason it ended as peacefully as it did is because the folks in the military weren't complete idiots, so they didn't go out and start a war somewhere in order to preserve the government. I'm not entirely sure the same can be said for the military types in China. They've got lots of cannon fodder and a willingness to use it. Hell, they don't seem to mind running over their own children with tanks, so it would be a mistake to underestimate their capacity to commit mass suicide.
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The thing about communist countries is that the leader can't have his cabinet, the politburo members, populated by possible successors. The cheques (european spelling!) and balances of the US make it perfectly safe to have the very best people in these positions.

BUT

We don't have to worry so much about some upstart deciding to take over. So the leader of their military has shown two things in order to keep his job.

1. That his alliegence is to the party in all things.

2. That he's a paper dragon that poses no threat whatsoever of taking over.

Another thing that's kinda important in a communist country is that the military heirarchy on down the line does what their told. If they don't, the future of their favourite (european spelling!) passtime, breathing, can be cut short.

I don't think the Soviet military had a choice even if it wanted one. They weren't fighting an army- only an idea. To have started shooting every mind in sight would go against their training, to say the least. Their training consisted of awaiting orders and executing them. No orders? No action.

I think it would be the same in China. The politburo members enjoy all the best things in life. That's their motivation- to stay there. The military helps them do that. But what if there were no way to do so except to accept terms that, while perhaps compromising the ideals of current Chineese philosophy, keep them in power and luxury? What would the orders be then?

That's the way to take them out and provide a more fertile environment for capitalism to take hold- to give the few in power some direction in where their best interests may lie.

The former Soviet Union was once a proud and powerful animal. It's problem was that all the power was focused in a very small, protracted group who's real motivation in life was to keep it that way. When that became impossible, they rolled right over.

The enemy in China isn't a billion Chineese people, just a few snake heads that can be cut off, leaving a nation of willing, but unmotivated 2nd leiutenants to whatever it takes to preserve the current government. Considering the fact that these same 2nd leiutenants operate more out of fear from above than patriotism, is there really any reason to fear them?

Make it in the best interests of the leadership (personally) to toe the line, and the rest will follow.

Make it so the choice is between exile, without luxury, and luxury, without exile and the fingers of capitalism will entwine even the heart of Bejing! The Chineese people could, if the hunger for even the simplest western aspects of life were to take hold, bring this about.

I'm all for showing the citizens of China what could be. That's all it would take IMHO.

k
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As far as my ill feelings for NAFTA, GATT, WTO, etc.
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Glad to know there is a really important issue we agree on! You must be doing your research. Most people don't have a clue on these. And the damage to people and land is unthinkable.
Becky
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