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No. of Recommendations: 0
So tonight was a pretty short one.

Lets hear it. This sillyd is not a very good player. Played a few SnG's with him in the last few days. Very loose/aggressive. I don't mind my play here but I sure could have gotten away from it. Thoughts?

Hand #2970581-16 at PhilInviteSun-006 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 17/Oct/04 21:46:19

RPMick is at seat 0 with 780.
Gameslut is at seat 1 with 1240.
CallahanKJ is at seat 2 with 915.
ssherving is at seat 3 with 785.
GameShowGuy is at seat 4 with 995.
Irie7 is at seat 5 with 1130.
sillyd is at seat 6 with 1240.
force10269 is at seat 7 with 1060.
bahz is at seat 8 with 1485.
oiltrader is at seat 9 with 2165.
The button is at seat 4.

Irie7 posts the small blind of 10.
sillyd posts the big blind of 20.

RPMick: Qd Jh
Gameslut: -- --
CallahanKJ: -- --
ssherving: -- --
GameShowGuy: -- --
Irie7: -- --
sillyd: -- --
force10269: -- --
bahz: -- --
oiltrader: -- --
Pre-flop:
force10269 folds. bahz folds. oiltrader folds.
RPMick raises to 50. Gameslut folds. CallahanKJ
folds. ssherving folds. GameShowGuy folds. Irie7
folds. sillyd calls.
Flop (board: Js Ac Qh):
sillyd checks. RPMick bets 100. sillyd goes all-in
for 1190. RPMick goes all-in for 730. sillyd is
returned 460 (uncalled).

Tournament all-in showdown -- players show:

RPMick shows Qd Jh.
sillyd shows As Qc.

Turn (board: Js Ac Qh 9s):
River (board: Js Ac Qh 9s 8c)
Showdown:

RPMick has Qd Jh Js Ac Qh: two pair, queens and jacks.
sillyd has As Qc Js Ac Qh: two pair, aces and queens.

Hand #2970581-16 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
sillyd wins 1570 with two pair, aces and queens.
RPMick is eliminated.

-Ryan
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No. of Recommendations: 0
Lets hear it. This sillyd is not a very good player. Played a few SnG's with him in the last few days. Very loose/aggressive. I don't mind my play here but I sure could have gotten away from it. Thoughts?

As I am sure you know, there isn't much to say besides bad call. I get caught when good hands don't raise preflop too but it happens very often. It's probably even true that 9/10 times sillyd would have gone all in with Ax but this time he had two pair.

Wait for the nuts to go all-in or at the very least, wait until you are not in a situation beaten by legitimate hands. AQ, AA, JJ, QQ etc all are good here and the straight too. KT is a hand a lot of players will play for a small bet.

But you know this.

Rick
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As I am sure you know, there isn't much to say besides bad call. I get caught when good hands don't raise preflop too but it happens very often. It's probably even true that 9/10 times sillyd would have gone all in with Ax but this time he had two pair.

See, this is what got me to call. Know it or not, he made a good play. K10, I don't think he would move in at this point. 2 pair, doubt it without re-raising me. (which is my downfall as you point out) He made a good play, I'll give him that.

My rash judgement and lack of respect for his ability killed me here.

Next time.

-Ryan
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No. of Recommendations: 0
See, this is what got me to call. Know it or not, he made a good play. K10, I don't think he would move in at this point. 2 pair, doubt it without re-raising me. (which is my downfall as you point out) He made a good play, I'll give him that.

I got nailed tonight with AA that way. I am in the big blind down to four players, blinds about a fifth of my stack. Small blind just calls and I have KQo. Flop comes Kxx and small blind bets pot, I raise that more than twice the amount and he goes all in, I call. He shows AA. IGHN.

Here is another hand from a little earlier. I think I had to make the call, what do you think? Bowl4money is a good player but that means he was also stealing at this stage.

Table Table 13946 (Real Money) -- Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: eagle1983 (2090)
Seat 2: SuprRounder (2045)
Seat 3: waterloolion (630)
Seat 4: TMONEY1983 (2250)
Seat 6: Bowl4money (985)
SuprRounder posts small blind (100)
waterloolion posts big blind (200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SuprRounder [ As, Qs ]
TMONEY1983 folds.
Bowl4money raises (985) to 985
Bowl4money is all-In.
eagle1983 folds.
SuprRounder raises (1945) to 2045
SuprRounder is all-In.
waterloolion folds.

** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5h, 8c, 7h ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Td ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Ac ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2170 | Side Pot 1: 1060
Board: [ 5h 8c 7h Td Ac ]
SuprRounder balance 1060, bet 2045, collected 1060, lost -985 [ As Qs ] [ a pair of aces -- As,Ac,Qs,Td,8c ]
Bowl4money balance 2170, bet 985, collected 2170, net +1185 [ Tc Th ] [ three of a kind, tens -- Ac,Tc,Th,Td,8c ]

Rick
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No. of Recommendations: 3
More important to me is, why are you open raising QJo from 4th position early in a multi-table? CO or button I could see justifying it, but that looks like an easy PF fold to me with your position.

- C -
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His move spells middle pair all over it. When medium stacks move in like that I have come to expect middle pairs.

That said, you can be fairly certain you have overcards and you are pukking yourself in a race situation.

You said he was stealing? All-in stealing? Cause if he is just raising pots, you or T-Money should be popping him back.

FWIW, SnG, I'd call, multi-table, I'd fold.

-Ryan
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More important to me is, why are you open raising QJo from 4th position early in a multi-table? CO or button I could see justifying it, but that looks like an easy PF fold to me with your position.

It was an attempt to make a play at the pot. I do it with 89o, 86o, and a few others early on when the price is cheap and the chance of cracking someone is high. Just so turned out I was the one being cracked here.

-Ryan
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No. of Recommendations: 1
It was an attempt to make a play at the pot. I do it with 89o, 86o, and a few others early on when the price is cheap and the chance of cracking someone is high. Just so turned out I was the one being cracked here.

I like your thought process here in terms of a "change it up" sort of play. Personally I would prefer doing it in a situation where you're in later position, especially with a limper or two in front of you. But in general, somewhere that has far fewer people to act behind you than in the position here.

But there's merit to making this play from an early position. The biggest problem I have with it though, is doing it with a hand like QJo. This seems to me to be pretty clearly a case where you should be making a play like this with lower cards.

There's six guys left to act behind you. If anyone is planning to play the pot with you after you open raise, they'll be doing so with one of three hands...
1) Two big cards.
2) A pocket pair.
3) An Ace.
In the third case, you'll only see that from the weaker "Ace Chasers" and you don't mind such a play thanks to the exact flop you got.

The problem is that most people that will follow you into the pot will be doing so with big cards. This is exactly what you want when you hold a hand like 76. There are any number of flops that will either hit you and miss them or even hit you hard enough that it allows you to break them.

But with a hand like QJ, you're looking at several hands that could easily have you crushed, and just as easily have you in a position where you hit something you like and still wind up with good odds to get beat.
AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AQ, KQ, AJ, KJ all have you dominated.
AK and KT have you not only beaten, but even if you flop something you like (QJx), you're put in a position where they could wind up outdrawing you.

When someone's following you into the pot with big cards, the only hands you can actually beat handily are QT and JT, and you have a slight edge over TT. The rest have you beaten, or in many cases dominated.

This is the perfect example. We know it was a bad call of his all in, but there are so many hands that could easily be out there that have you hurting in a bad way...
AA, QQ, JJ, AQ, AJ, KT all have you crushed.
KK, AK, KQ, KJ, QT, and JT are in trouble but offer intreguing drawing opportunities.

The problem is that there aren't a lot of hands with a flop like that which you can feel all that comfortable about. Your only hope is that you have your man pegged as a bad player and he actually came in on Ax.

I think if you're gonna make a play at a pot like this in early position, you should be doing it with the lower end of the spectrum. Raise up a hand like 75s from early/mid position. Easy to get off of if it misses, and guaranteed to take down a monster if it hits. QJo is too easy to get cracked by the other big cards out there.

- C -
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I think if you're gonna make a play at a pot like this in early position, you should be doing it with the lower end of the spectrum. Raise up a hand like 75s from early/mid position. Easy to get off of if it misses, and guaranteed to take down a monster if it hits. QJo is too easy to get cracked by the other big cards out there.

I think you're right on. Like you said, we know the all-in call was a poor play, but now that I look at it, the raise or the play itself is questionable.

What could I have wanted to hit? Q? J? Either way, just like you say, I would probably be up against AQ, AJ, KQ, or KJ. Hit 2 pair like I did, and it's just about down to gambling on if he hit top pair or not and buying the pot. We see how that worked out.

Excellent comments, duly noted, time to re-evaluate some hands.

-Ryan
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It was an attempt to make a play at the pot. I do it with 89o, 86o, and a few others early on when the price is cheap and the chance of cracking someone is high. Just so turned out I was the one being cracked here.

You basically are increasing your varience. You are taking on additional risks, balancing it out with an additional chance to double up. Only you can decide if this is +EV for you.

I like to do the same thing with small pairs. But I typically will limp in, instead of raising, unless I felt I could win the blinds right there. When I do hit, I can be more confident that I am ahead. Chris has pointed out some of the issues with doing this with QJ
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But I typically will limp in, instead of raising, unless I felt I could win the blinds right there. When I do hit, I can be more confident that I am ahead. Chris has pointed out some of the issues with doing this with QJ


I also agree with earlier advice that playing 98o and 75s or 65s is a better mixup play than QJo. Much easier to get away from and not be trapped by an Aq or KJs or something.

Also, as Rick pointed out, KTs is not unheard of for a small bet in a MTT.

Naj
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