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I know, all politicians are economical with the truth when it suits. But the Republicans seem to be out-doing themselves lately with misdirection and just outright lies.

During a townhall call-in last night with our rep there was a survey:
"Push 1 if you want to end the shutdown, leaving our southern border unsecured"
"Push 2 if you want to end the shutdown with our border secured"

False dichotomy, much? What a crock.

Op-ed in today's local paper. Local politician writes: "Stop drug epidemic and build the wall". She conflates illegal drugs with illegal immigration and implies that the wall will solve both... ignorance, willful ignorance or just plain lying?

Unrelated, why did Pelosi think it was a good idea to go on a foreign trip while the government is shut down? That seems like an abdication of responsibility.
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Unrelated, why did Pelosi think it was a good idea to go on a foreign trip while the government is shut down? That seems like an abdication of responsibility.

1) It was a business trip. The government and her job don't stop just because another issue happens to be in-progress.

2) One could easily argue and be right to say: "If the government is shut down why would it make a difference? might as well get this out of the way while business is slower than usual."

My opinion? Yes, I would have stayed home. Optics.
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Unrelated, why did Pelosi think it was a good idea to go on a foreign trip while the government is shut down? That seems like an abdication of responsibility.

The right wing chatter seems to assume that Pelosi wanted to make this trip and that Trump has some how punished her. I'm not sure that's true. My guess is that this trip was part of a Congressional duty that was planned long ago. Pelosi and others in Congress were willing to do their duty, but I doubt any of them are lamenting the cancelled travel - certainly not to the extent that Trump is lamenting his loss of his promised monument to himself, the border wall. Heck, Pelosi might actually be relieved that she doesn't have to do this now.
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My opinion? Yes, I would have stayed home. Optics.

Mine too. Heading out on an apparent boondoggle looks bad, when they need to getting this figured out.

I get SG's point too. Not going isn't going to break her (Pelosi's) heart.

So, what's the end-game here? Wait for Trump to resign?

Our rep, a tea-party/freedom caucus ultra right winger was suggesting that the government should be reopened using a continuing resolution lasting until 2021, when "hopefully Speaker Pelosi will be the minority leader once more". I'd be happy with the CR, but of course I expect a blue wave in 2020.
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Unrelated, why did Pelosi think it was a good idea to go on a foreign trip while the government is shut down? That seems like an abdication of responsibility.

=======================

Why did the President and Republian congress people take a similar trip while the government was shut down?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/21/politics/lindsey-graham-afgha...

I didn't hear anyone screaming then.

At least Graham said the President was wrong.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/425900-graham-inappropri...
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“Why did the President and Republian congress people take a similar trip while the government was shut down?

I didn't hear anyone screaming then.”

Well, no one is screaming over Pelosi’s trip, either. But more to the point, Trump and the Republicans look like they don’t care and are not doing their jobs. I don’t want our side to look similar. They go low, we go high.

Or at least that’s the way I wish we could be...
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/world/middleeast/turkey-l...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/sen-graham-says-saudi-cro...

articles dated Jan. 19

Did Lindsey Graham fly commercial to Turkey last week?
Did he feel the need to tell djt* he was wrong because he had the Turkey trip scheduled -- or was already in Turkey?


Why did Melania fly to Mar-a-Lago last week on military transport?
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None of the key players should be going on trips right now. They should be in Washington, all in a room, getting this thing figured out.
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They should be in Washington, all in a room, getting this thing figured out.

Hmmmm . . . I don't think that makes any sense. There is nothing to figure out. Trump, the petulant man-child is having a hissy fit because he wants someone to build a massive, useless monument to him and his cult. But he can't find anyone willing to give him the money to do it. What possible good can come from the adults in Washington sitting in a room waiting for the petulant man-child to grow up?
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Hmmmm . . . I don't think that makes any sense. There is nothing to figure out. Trump, the petulant man-child is having a hissy fit because he wants someone to build a massive, useless monument to him and his cult. But he can't find anyone willing to give him the money to do it. What possible good can come from the adults in Washington sitting in a room waiting for the petulant man-child to grow up?

Sure, there's a something to figure out - a deal. A deal where we get something we want (DACA, TPS, humane treatment of migrants, better drug interdiction, etc), in exchange for some steel fencing that may or may not do any good. We could even decide where it goes. Democrats have been OK with funding border fencing in the past. We can do it again.

Trump gave up on the concrete wall monument on Saturday (or before).
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Sure, there's a something to figure out - a deal. A deal where we get something we want (DACA, TPS, humane treatment of migrants, better drug interdiction, etc), in exchange for some steel fencing that may or may not do any good. We could even decide where it goes. Democrats have been OK with funding border fencing in the past. We can do it again.

But you can't negotiate with Trump. He lies. The Democrats already made a deal with Trump regarding the wall and DACA. Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity vetoed that negotiated deal. There are also GOP Senators who would refuse to vote in favor of any compromise that included DACA. So who do you think needs to be in this negotiation room? Democrat leaders, Trump, Republican Senate leaders, and all right wing pundits who Trump listens to? Even then, what keeps Trump from simply doing something the day after he gets wall funding that undoes any agreement he made? So the deal not only has to please all these people, it has to be constructed in a way that protects us from Trump lying.
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There are also several Reps whose districts lie where the wall would be, and they are almost unanimously against it (because it will require seizing of a lot of private property through eminent domain to build it, among other reasons). I was reading about that last week.
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But you can't negotiate with Trump.

What's the alternative? What do you think Dems should be doing?

By the end of this week the shutdown will have cost about $6B. Hundreds of thousands of workers are facing real hardship. Not only are the Dems the adults in the room, they're also the only ones with an ounce of compassion. Eventually, something has to give, right?
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What's the alternative? What do you think Dems should be doing?

I think they're doing about as good a job as they can be doing.

Look, I believe you should always be available and open to actual negotiation. Even in the case of a lying con man like Trump, keeping a line of communication available provides the potential for some kind of agreement that can't happen if no one is willing to talk or listen. But you also have to know the difference between actual negotiation and blowhard grand standing for the Press and the Trump cult.

Your suggestion that everyone in Washington should be in a room until something is solved doesn't make sense to me. Give Trump a platform to bloviate and lie and that's what he's going to do. That's not negotiation and it doesn't help solve any problems. In fact, allowing Trump to grand stand for his cult works against any eventual solution. By letting Trump go to a room with his "opponents" and lie about his plans and their motives to the press every day is not going to be productive. It is going to help Trump keep his minions energized and stupid.

You have multiple problems here. 1- Trump's shutdown is hurting innocent government workers. 2- Trump and his cult are driving an agenda of fear, hate and ignorance in this country and it is damaging our government, world standing and attacking our Constitution. I think your suggestion exacerbates the second problem while not really addressing the first effectively at all. It is a painful pill to swallow, but Democrats need to be much more focused on solving problem #2 - or at least not doing things that make the second problem worse. The method to approach problem #1 can't be anything that makes problem #2 worse.
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SG:"Look, I believe you should always be available and open to actual negotiation. Even in the case of a lying con man like Trump, keeping a line of communication available provides the potential for some kind of agreement that can't happen if no one is willing to talk or listen."


Maybe you need to talk to Pelosi and Schumer. They have NO interest in negotiation. Period. It's no money for a wall or border security. Not one dime.

So there....you're the party of NO...NO NO NO NO...democrats...progressives. MOre interested in power politics than the 800,000 thousand out of work, plus all the contractors who won't get back pay!

All due to the Pelosi=Schumer Shut Down and unwillingness to negotiate in good faith.

Simple.

t.
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Look, I believe you should always be available and open to actual negotiation.

Right. We agree. They should be available (in Washington), and they should be willing to actually negotiate.

You have multiple problems here. 1- Trump's shutdown is hurting innocent government workers. 2- Trump and his cult are driving an agenda of fear, hate and ignorance in this country and it is damaging our government, world standing and attacking our Constitution. I think your suggestion exacerbates the second problem while not really addressing the first effectively at all. It is a painful pill to swallow, but Democrats need to be much more focused on solving problem #2 - or at least not doing things that make the second problem worse. The method to approach problem #1 can't be anything that makes problem #2 worse.

OK. You have any ideas on solving the short-term problem (#1)?
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OK. You have any ideas on solving the short-term problem (#1)?

Well . . . right now, the existence of problem #1 (the shutdown) is actually contributing to the solution of problem #2 (Trump and his minions are not coupled to reality). It hasn't been a big impact, but polls show that support for the cult is declining slightly because the vast majority of Americans are blaming Trump for the problem (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/...). In fact, some polls show Trump losing ground with Independents and Republicans specifically, and some show approval ratings much lower. None of this solves the shutdown problem, but the Democrats don't want to do anything that helps Trump slow the approval bleeding he is experiencing now. Pelosi is seen as doing a good job compared to Republicans and Trump (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/23/18194184/t...). So Democrats need to be very careful.

Democrats have already held a Press Conference that explains that they are doing what they can (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqFNME1qXTk). They should continue to propose legislation that would end the shutdown and they should continue to publicize that. They should make it known publicly that they are willing and interested to talk with McConnell (and with Trump) to negotiate, but they need to be very careful about accepting any deal that involves spending American taxpayer money on a useless monument to Trump. I would expect the price of building a permanent monument on the border to Trump and his cult to be extremely high. If Dems get anything less than universal health care and DACA relief in exchange for the wall, lots of Democrats like me will become so disillusioned with the Democratic party that they will not support them in the next election.

Trump is a terrorist - holding 800,000 federal employees hostage in order to get his monument. You can't negotiate with terrorists and expect anything but more terrorism.

Beyond that, we are getting what a well-placed minority of voters voted for in this country. That cult-like minority of voters have proven themselves to be ill-informed racists and pawns to corrupt, greedy billionaires, but the result of the election is mostly legally consistent with our country's laws and documents. Democrats control Congress, but not the White House or the Senate. They really can't be expected to solve this Trump/Republican problem. And they should not be engaging in any compromises that support Trump or his ignorant cult in any way.
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Trump is a terrorist - holding 800,000 federal employees hostage in order to get his monument. You can't negotiate with terrorists and expect anything but more terrorism.

This is the crux of the matter. Trump himself has made it impossible to negotiate with him. If he wins on this--or even if the shutdown ends with something he can "spin" into a victory--he will do this sort of thing again and again.

There was an agreement, and Trump double-crossed his own people. By his own words, he "proudly" owns this mess.

A possible ending: Congress will re-pass the bill they'd presented to Trump in December. He will refuse to sign it (keeping his pledge on that) but will NOT veto it. After 10 working days, it becomes law automatically.
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This is the crux of the matter. Trump himself has made it impossible to negotiate with him. If he wins on this--or even if the shutdown ends with something he can "spin" into a victory--he will do this sort of thing again and again.

Exactly. If you give a toddler a lollipop in order to stop him from throwing a tantrum all you do is train the toddler he gets rewarded when he throws a tantrum.

The toddler-in-chief needs to learn that he's not going to get a lollipop. If he wants a border wall, he needs to do it the old fashioned way: Cut a deal. That means talking to people, finding out what they what, what they are thinking, etc. Find areas where you are both invested in the same outcome.

I've made number of posts with examples of how utterly, unbelievably bad Trump is at negotiating, but this incident might be the topper. By large majorities, Americans blame Trump for the shutdown, as they should and as the shutdown goes on, Trump's numbers continue to get worse.

Trump can't offer Schumer and Pelosi anything they particularly want, like say permanent DACA protections, without upsetting his base. Since Trump only cares about pleasing his base, he can't make that offer. He's in a corner and getting pummeled by the court of public opinion. He walked into his own trap. It has been unbelievable to watch.
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t

So there....you're the party of NO...NO NO NO NO...democrats...progressives. MOre interested in power politics than the 800,000 thousand out of work, plus all the contractors who won't get back pay!

Keep believing that if it helps you sleep at night.

Trump said on December 11, “I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck. … I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I’m not going to blame you for it.”

He got what he wanted. The House passes bills to open the government and send them up the line, Mitch won't bring them to the floor of the Senate. Trump got his shutdown. Tell me again who owns the shutdown.

But most people already know and understand all of this.
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"The House passes bills to open the government and send them up the line, "

You meant to say Pelosi's 'House' passed bills that contain no money for border security...but only a promise that after the government, the democrats will 'negotiate' on border security (and still say NO NO NO NO NO NO NO).....

Gimme a break. How gullible are you? Like Charlie Brown believing Lucy is ever going to not yank the football away as he goes to kick it?

t
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<<Gimme a break. How gullible are you? Like Charlie Brown believing Lucy is ever going to not yank the football away as he goes to kick it?

t>>


Now that you mention it, Nancy Pelosi DOES resemble Lucy Van Pelt!


Seattle Pioneer
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You meant to say Pelosi's 'House' passed bills that contain no money for border security...but only a promise that after the government, the democrats will 'negotiate' on border security (and still say NO NO NO NO NO NO NO).....

wall != border Security.

I'm betting there is border security money (at least to pay the current folks).
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Democrats have already held a Press Conference that explains that they are doing what they can (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqFNME1qXTk).

Thanks for that - I hadn't seen it. And the 538 link. Interesting that my supposedly moderate senator (Portman) votes almost 100% with Trump.

They should continue to propose legislation that would end the shutdown and they should continue to publicize that. They should make it known publicly that they are willing and interested to talk with McConnell (and with Trump) to negotiate, but they need to be very careful about accepting any deal that involves spending American taxpayer money on a useless monument to Trump.

Completely agree.

I would expect the price of building a permanent monument on the border to Trump and his cult to be extremely high. If Dems get anything less than universal health care and DACA relief in exchange for the wall, lots of Democrats like me will become so disillusioned with the Democratic party that they will not support them in the next election.

$5.7B won't build a permanent monument to Trump. It'll buy two hundred miles or so of very ugly looking steel fencing. Not at all his vision of a "beautiful wall" from sea to sea.
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I've made number of posts with examples of how utterly, unbelievably bad Trump is at negotiating, but this incident might be the topper. By large majorities, Americans blame Trump for the shutdown, as they should and as the shutdown goes on, Trump's numbers continue to get worse.

Trump can't offer Schumer and Pelosi anything they particularly want, like say permanent DACA protections, without upsetting his base. Since Trump only cares about pleasing his base, he can't make that offer. He's in a corner and getting pummeled by the court of public opinion. He walked into his own trap.


Don’t take this the wrong way, because we are (almost) all enjoying watching him try to wriggle out of the trap he himself set, but the way to end this is too give him some *small* face saving way out, which is what you do when your opponent is going to be in superior office for another two years.

Yes, he will try to spin it into some sort of victory for himself, which will fool no one but his base, and who cares about them anyway. It’s not as though they’re going to vote Democratic ever, are they? Let him up off the mat, and have Nancy say to him (privately) “You owe me one, big shot.” It’s what you do with a weakling, especially when there is an actual public interest involved.

JFK was cognizant that Khrushchev couldn’t just walk away from Cuba, so he gave him our missiles in Turkey - but quietly. Here it was spun as “big victory” but it allowed Nikita a consolation prize, which he could spin however he wanted back home.

Nancy has demonstrated to the doubters in her own party that they were wrong, she has now bested the orange one a dozen times in just a few weeks. I don’t know exactly what structure this might take, but when whatever the deal is is announced I am going to assume that there’s a little bit more behind the curtain that we’re not seeing. And in this case I think that’s OK, especially if it gets the government opened again. (Meanwhile he’s had his ass handed to him. In public. By a woman. And all the Fox Newses in the world can’t make that go away.)
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I have to say that I disagree with your assessment and I hope Nancy and the Dems are smarter than that:

...but the way to end this is too give him some *small* face saving way out, which is what you do when your opponent is going to be in superior office for another two years.

This doesn't work with Trump and his cult. That cult has to be dismantled or we are stuck with a minority of ill-informed, under-educated white racists electing our Presidents for some time to come. That cult must be un-programmed or the US will continue to decline while the GOP dismantles the Constitution and punishes the liberals, minorities and press. The cult is currently insulated from the truth with their heads stuck in the GOP propaganda machine, so all they are seeing is Trump "winning". They have chosen to view all of the real failures of this Administration as fake news. This shutdown is the first chink we've seen in the Trump cult armor. According to the polls, a small but measurable group of Trump cult members have seen this as a reason to disapprove of Trump's performance. Democrats should do nothing that changes that - no face saving deals.

. . . and have Nancy say to him (privately) “You owe me one, big shot.”

And this is a real problem with your prescription. How stupid would Nancy have to be to trust that Trump would ever feel obligated to "owe her one" once he got off the mat? This man lies and backstabs those around him at an incredible rate. I have no doubts that five minutes after making the deal, Trump would be bloviating lies and insults at Nancy and doing whatever he wanted to do. You can't trust liars and it is naive to believe that this time he might show some degree of honor. You can't negotiate with liars and crooks because they will just view you as weak for negotiating and turn on you as soon as the opportunity arises.

JFK was cognizant that Khrushchev couldn’t just walk away from Cuba, so he gave him our missiles in Turkey

Trump is not Khrushchev and JFK was not competing with a multi-billion dollar GOP propaganda machine or with a US cult of ill-informed, angry morons whose heads seem to be stuck inside that machine.

Nancy has demonstrated to the doubters in her own party that they were wrong

Yes, she has. I'm hoping that she continues but will not be impressed if she lets Trump off the mat unless she gets something like universal health care and complete legal relief for Dreamers. I don't think either is possible with the current Senate and Trump, so I think Trump stays on the mat until things get so bad that another 20% or so of his cult finally abandon him. Once his approval rating is down to 30% or so, Republicans in the Senate and Congress will not be so unwilling to reprimand or stand against Trump. Then we can start negotiating. For now, all focus needs to be on taking the lying con man down.
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I agree.

If you have someone on the mat you don't give them a face-saving out. They tap-out, or you choke them out.

I also agree the Missile Crisis comparison doesn't work. Trump is a 3rd grader (Jeanwa overestimated him earlier). You treat him like one. If he throws a tantrum you don't give him a lollipop (reward), you punish him. Otherwise he will do it again and again and again.

Khrushchev was not a 3rd grader, despite the shoe pounding on the table.

I think the best option is for Congress to act, and eventually even the Rep slime in the Senate will realize they must pass a bill and override any veto that may come.
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Don’t take this the wrong way, because we are (almost) all enjoying watching him try to wriggle out of the trap he himself set, but the way to end this is too give him some *small* face saving way out, which is what you do when your opponent is going to be in superior office for another two years.

In a normal negotiation, that's the way it works. A deal is made, by definition, when both sides get something they want. In this case, Trump had two things he wanted: to end the shutdown and money for his wall, and nothing Pelosi and Schumer wanted. Kind of head scratching where the deal is in that mess.

Interestingly, in the Senate on Thursday there were two more votes for the Democratic plan than for the Republican plan, and several more Republicans sounded like they were wavering. Trump is fracturing his own party. Had he let this continue he might have broken his control on the Senate for good.
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