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Okay, at first I thought it was an aberration - but I've seen it done three or four times in the last few days.

Before the flop, you get a caller in early position. Another player raises behind (either before or after other callers)...and then the first caller will re-raise.

It's sort of a "call-raise," I suppose, though it plays like a check-raise.

Is this ever an appropriate play in a limit game?

Albaby
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Is this ever an appropriate play in a limit game?

I see it all the time too. It's done by those people who misunderstand flush and set draws... and believe they are "betting for value." They misunderstand the concept of getting to see a flop as cheaply as possible... relying heavily on the idea that they have 1/5 or 1/4 odds and bet that idea.

It's a mistake unless they have AA or KK, but if they have that, they should have raised to begin.

The idea is pretty simple... if you are ahead, bet. If behind but drawing, go cheap. Sometimes you want to build a pot, but the flop isn't the time to do it... unless the game is really really tight and you have to take chances to keep people from folding later on.

Rick
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Is this ever an appropriate play in a limit game?

Sure, in games where you can pretty much count on a raise from a later position it's okay to do this sometimes. It's a pretty bad mistake imo if the game is passive though and a raise behind is unlikely.

Generally the person making this play is representing one of three hands: AA, KK or AK. He/she might do this for a couple of reasons, either her preflop raises are getting too much respect ie nobody is calling, or her preflop limps are getting hammered all the time.

In theory if you're going to limp-reraise with AA, KK, AK you should also throw a few other hands into the mix for deception purposes, hands like 99 and 88. You should also, if using this strategy, be open-raising with hands you might otherwise toss from EP, ATs for example. The idea is that observant ie good players will be much more hesitant to raise your limps, and much more likely to call your raises.

In practise though I don't think it matters much at the low limits (5/10 and below). Sure, a limp-reraise with AA can be good fun and even profitable at times but, really, how many opponents are going to adjust their play drastically simply because you've thrown a few curveballs into the mix. I open-raise with 99 and KT (sometimes) as easily AA anyway so good luck to anybody who thinks they can put me on a hand.

Neo

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I open-raise with 99 and KT (sometimes) as easily AA anyway so good luck to anybody who thinks they can put me on a hand.

Please let me know when you are open raising with KT. I'll get out of bed for that.

Rick
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Please let me know when you are open raising with KT. I'll get out of bed for that.

Add me to your PP buddy list if I'm not already there and come join my game. I promise I will open-raise with KT or worse into your big blind at least once. Hell, I'll be generous, three times in one hour.

If you last that long. Hugs and smileys,

Neo
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Please let me know when you are open raising with KT. I'll get out of bed for that.

Ahhh...speak of the devil. From last night's session.

***** Hand History for Game 305844541 *****
5/10 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Mon Dec 29 09:35:41 EST 2003
Table XtremZ (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6

bwjunior posts small blind (2)
jdcesq posts big blind (5)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to PolitePaul [ Tc, Ks ]
Wanted_Man folds.
PolitePaul raises (10) to 10
huckdog calls (10)
bwjunior folds.
jdcesq folds.

** Dealing Flop ** : [ Js, Qc, 9s ]
PolitePaul bets (5)
huckdog calls (5)

** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ah ]
PolitePaul bets (10)
huckdog calls (10)

** Dealing River ** : [ 8d ]
PolitePaul bets (10)
huckdog calls (10)

** Summary **
Main Pot: $75 | Rake: $2
Board: [ Js Qc 9s Ah 8d ]
PolitePaul balance $158.50, bet $35, collected $75, net +$40 [ Tc Ks ] [ a straight, ten to ace -- Ah,Ks,Qc,Js,Tc ]
huckdog balance $346, lost $35 [ 4d Qd ] [ a pair of queens -- Ah,Qd,Qc,Js,9s ]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

***** Hand History for Game 305779898 *****
5/10 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Mon Dec 29 07:07:21 EST 2003
Table AppleStreudel (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6

PolitePaul posts small blind (2)
mosik posts big blind (5)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to PolitePaul [ Qc, Tc ]
wan_man_1 folds.
arbianight folds.
PolitePaul raises (8) to 10
mosik calls (5)

** Dealing Flop ** : [ Jc, 3d, 2h ]
PolitePaul bets (5)
mosik calls (5)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Qd ]
PolitePaul bets (10)
mosik raises (20) to 20
PolitePaul raises (20) to 30
mosik calls (10)

** Dealing River ** : [ 6h ]
PolitePaul bets (10)
mosik calls (10)

** Summary **
Main Pot: $108 | Rake: $2
Board: [ Jc 3d 2h Qd 6h ]

PolitePaul balance $320, bet $55, collected $108, net +$53 [ Qc Tc ] [ a pair of queens -- Qc,Qd,Jc,Tc,6h ]

mosik balance $314.50, lost $55 [ 5d 5c ] [ a pair of fives -- Qd,Jc,6h,5d,5c ]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

***** Hand History for Game 305777899 *****
5/10 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Mon Dec 29 07:02:49 EST 2003
Table AppleStreudel (Real Money) -- Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 6

emma22 posts small blind (2)
arbianight posts big blind (5)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to PolitePaul [ Ts, Kd ]
PolitePaul raises (10) to 10
mosik folds.
ronsq57 calls (10)
wan_man_1 folds.
emma22 folds.
arbianight folds.

** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8h, 7s, Jh ]
PolitePaul bets (5)
ronsq57 raises (10) to 10
PolitePaul calls (5)

** Dealing Turn ** : [ Td ]
PolitePaul checks.
ronsq57 bets (10)
PolitePaul calls (10)
** Dealing River ** : [ Qc ]
PolitePaul checks.
ronsq57 checks.

** Summary **
Main Pot: $64 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 8h 7s Jh Td Qc ]

PolitePaul balance $346, bet $30, collected $64, net +$34 [ Ts Kd ] [ a pair of tens -- Kd,Qc,Jh,Ts,Td ]

ronsq57 balance $277, lost $30 [ 7h 2h ] [ a pair of sevens -- Qc,Jh,Td,7h,7s ]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

***** Hand History for Game 305777405 *****
5/10 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Mon Dec 29 07:01:41 EST 2003
Table AppleStreudel (Real Money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 4

ronsq57 posts small blind (2)
wan_man_1 posts big blind (5)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to PolitePaul [ 7h, Kh ]
PolitePaul raises (10) to 10
mosik folds.
ronsq57 folds.
wan_man_1 calls (5)

** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2d, Ad, Th ]
wan_man_1 checks.
PolitePaul bets (5)
wan_man_1 raises (9.50) to 9.50
wan_man_1 calls all-In.
PolitePaul calls (4.50)

** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2s ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Ts ]
Creating Main Pot with $39 with wan_man_1
** Summary **
Main Pot: $39 | | Rake: $2
Board: [ 2d Ad Th 2s Ts ]

PolitePaul balance $312, bet $19.50, collected $19.50, net +$0 [ 7h Kh ] [ two pairs, tens and twos -- Ad,Th,Ts,2d,2s ]

wan_man_1 balance $19.50, bet $19.50, collected $19.50, net +$0 [ Jc 8d ] [ two pairs, tens and twos -- Ad,Th,Ts,2d,2s ]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, KT, QT and even K7 are highly underrated starting hands. I'd go as far to say KT in particular is pretty close to the nuts.

Neo
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Do you ever lose?
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Do you ever lose?

Oh, cuff yeah I lose all the time. And when I lose it's not just a few bets, let me tell you. My big pocket pairs almost never hold up. In fact it's so bad I'm tempted to muck QQ and above preflop. But I don't, I just struggle on valiantly with my AA trash.

Given my history of bad beats (which you'll note I very rarely post about) I had to devise alternate strategies if I wanted to continue playing online. There's still a few wrinkles to be ironed out but give me time.

I'm thinking about writing a book. Anybody want to help me think of an appropriate title?

Neo
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I'm thinking about writing a book. Anybody want to help me think of an appropriate title?


How about this:
Really Bad Advice By Guys Wearing Clown Hats













Strike that - people would expect to read about Rule Breakers, not poker
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I promise I will open-raise with KT or worse into your big blind at least once. Hell, I'll be generous, three times in one hour.

Not enough. You have to TELL me when you are doing it.

Rick
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How about this: Really Bad Advice By Guys Wearing Clown Hats

Ooookay. The anonymity of the internet rears it's ugly head yet again. Well fellas, this is an open letter to all, not just the head pick-on-neo witster (rec, rec). The gloves come off now.

I definitely don't advise typical players (insert your name here) to use my secret starting hand strategy because such players (insert your name here again) don't want to win with hands like KT. And they feel guilty when they do. They even APOLOGIZE in their posts..."I was at a very passive table and normally I wouldn't think twice about folding this hand but I thought I'd mix up my play* a bit so I limped utg with KT. I flopped a straight. How do I play it?"

If I'm in the game, fold right now girlie because I'm going hit my runner, runner as you knew I would all along.

In order to be successful using my strategy one must absolutely love sucking out on the turn or river and I fear most here just don't have the walnuts to get that far. In other words, On Tilt is made up of a bunch of tight asses who, when holding KK for example, live in perpetual fear of seeing an ace fall on the river. And then write long thoughtful posts about value betting** in such circumstances.

Fellas, I'm the dude that's been reraising your big pocket pairs every step of the way with A6o. And that is on my tight days. You wanna get a load of me when I'm holding J5 and feeling frisky. I'm the subject of every third post here - whine, whine. I'm Angry Candy's nightmare come true. I'm the reason Jokey is thinking about packing it in. And TilHank...still running bad? <smirk, smirk> You don't know the meaning of the expression. Yet. You think things will improve for you in Nevada? The only thing that's going to change for you is the name of the airport, bub.

You guys fear a checkraise the way Vegas fears a blackout. Real players like me welcome czechrazors more than a starving alley cat welcomes the sight of junkyard rat's rotting corpse.

Do any of you clowns ever stop to think about why you aren't world class players? Sure you do. But you think wrong. You think about odds and how the better you know them, the better chance you'll have to someday eek out 1.5 bb an hour. You all make me want to puke. Pot odds, drawing odds, implied odds, and by God I even heard one of you mention negative implied odds the other day. WTF is that? I'll tell you what it is. Another popular expression in the losers club.

The only odds a world class player thinks about is the odds of getting one of his sissy Sklansky-Jones-disciple-opponents to fold. And if a world class player can't get his weak-sister opponent to make a big laydown***, then he just sucks out on him.

Does that sound so cuffing difficult? Well, it is. But only if you're lacking a pair.

So keep studying your books girls, and trying for that one big bet an hour. But just remember, when the tears begin to flow after suckout #5501, give ol' Neo a call if you want to learn how to play this game from the dark side.

Neo

* Mix up my play ...an expression used by losers.
** Value betting ...another phrase losers love.
***Make a big laydown ...my personal favourite.
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How about this: Really Bad Advice By Guys Wearing Clown Hats

Ooookay. The anonymity of the internet rears it's ugly head yet again. Well fellas, this is an open letter to all, not just the head pick-on-neo witster (rec, rec). The gloves come off now.


Neo, he was making a joke at the expense of TMF, not you. TMF guys wear funny hats and we all know they give questionable advice.

Rick
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Neo, he was making a joke at the expense of TMF, not you. TMF guys wear funny hats and we all know they give questionable advice.

Uhhh...how do I put this in a way that won't embarrass you?

Would..."I realize that" do it?

Or would..."I realize that and was making a joke at the expense of myself" be a little clearer.

Guess my humour isn't for everyone.

Neo
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So keep studying your books girls, and trying for that one big bet an hour. But just remember, when the tears begin to flow after suckout #5501, give ol' Neo a call if you want to learn how to play this game from the dark side.

You know, I agree with a lot of that. As I've said before, I DO think it's critical to know the odds but more as a guideline for good play vs bad rather than a guiding rule. And I definitely think you have to learn to play *correctly* before you develop a personal style of play, so odds are the easiest path to personalizing your game. But at some point, you realize you are playing against players who do some crazy things and profits increase when you start capitalizing on those crazy plays rather than playing by the book.

There are two basic rules I tend to relearn over and over that SHOULD guide my play and neither is the number of outs in a flush draw. They are:

1. The Basic rule... if you can't recognize the fish at the table, you are the fish at the table. (If you can't recognize weaker players, move on.)

2. Win as many BIG pots as you can. (Gamble when the gambling is good.)

That's really it.

Rick
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Guess my humour isn't for everyone.

Guess not.

Rick
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2. Win as many BIG pots as you can. (Gamble when the gambling is good.)

In all seriousness now and bad humour aside, my problem is that I win lots of little pots but rarely do I take down a big one and there are some really big pots even in the short games.

Any ideas why that may be?

Neo
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Ooookay. The anonymity of the internet rears it's ugly head yet again. Well fellas, this is an open letter to all, not just the head pick-on-neo witster (rec, rec). The gloves come off now ...

Fantastic post neo.
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I love it when you talk dirty.
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Before the flop, you get a caller in early position. Another player raises behind (either before or after other callers)...and then the first caller will re-raise.

It's sort of a "call-raise," I suppose, though it plays like a check-raise.

Is this ever an appropriate play in a limit game?


It's a limp-reraise. Abdul Jalib advocates the play and it's a regular part of my arsenal. Trick suggests that it is never optimal to open-limp from early position with something like AA and I respectfully disagree. There are too many games at Party that an early raise will limit the field too much - even to the point that you might take down the blinds right there. Not something you want to do with AA.

Naj (I think) correctly assesses that a limp reraiser should normally be put on AA, AK, or KK. Personally I don't like to limp with KK because I do not want anyone seeing the flop with a single bet and that is also too frequent at Party.

Where I think the limp-reraise has its greatest value is in getting dead money in to the pot. If you are in early position with something like AJ and you get a late position raiser with a family pot you can force all the connectors and middle crap limpers to call two more bets cold (with the risk of another bet before the flop). In many cases this is an excellent way to load up the pot with dead money. The only drawback here is that everyone will be pretty leery of you so you will only get action from folks with made hands.

Finally it is a good way test the relative strength of an opponent, and take control of the betting while the bets are cheap. In more limited pots if you limp reraise from early position you gain a lot of information if your opponent either caps or calls. It is important to have a decent read on your opponent before trying this kind of play since the Hellmuthians will cap instinctively and the weak-tights will call with top pairs.

Anyway here's the link. I've probably read this thing about three dozen times and spent many hours playing poker with the sheets gripped in my hand for reference.

http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/preflop-abdul.html

Here's a great link on no fold em strategy

http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/24
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Called the limp re-raise. It's a great, great play with AA or KK where there's predictable enough aggression behind you.
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It's a mistake unless they have AA or KK, but if they have that, they should have raised to begin.

The idea is pretty simple... if you are ahead, bet.


I think the idea is if you are ahead, get as much money in the pot as possible. Usually, that's by betting. But if I can get a few limpers and then a raise behind me and then three-bet, then I'm either going to have people with limping hands going three bets with me or I'm going to have dead money in the pot. Great, either way.

Yes, I don't mix this move up much and when I do it it pretty much declares AA or KK, maybe AK, but so what? I'm getting more action with a big hand. That's what you want.

Here's an area where I think Carson has it much better than a lot of the other commentators. People with big pairs preflop sit and think about thinning the field with them to reduce chance of getting sucked out on, but when you're ahead like that, you want them to call. Let them take their shot. Would you rather get even money and a small pot as a huge favorite or get 3-1 or 4-1 and a bigger pot as a big favorite? So you lose sometimes. Next hand.
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It's a limp-reraise. Abdul Jalib advocates the play and it's a regular part of my arsenal. Trick suggests that it is never optimal to open-limp from early position with something like AA and I respectfully disagree. There are too many games at Party that an early raise will limit the field too much - even to the point that you might take down the blinds right there. Not something you want to do with AA.

Interesting. I hadn't run into limp re-raising at the $1/2 or $2/4 tables, and not even at the $3/6 tables until this week. Then again, at the lower limits, a raise behind is pretty rare but some of the calling stations will call your UTG raise without putting you on a hand, so you would want to get your money out there.

I suppose that at any limit it's pretty infrequent that one of those three hands will even be dealt to early position, and much more so that there will be a raise behind in the same hand.

My first impression might have been colored by the fact that the player who was doing this was doing it with suited A-little, which is clearly a mistake.

Albaby
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I didn't read this whole thread, so I may have missed this. I did see the discussion on how it was representing AA, KK, or AK. There's something to think about there, though this really should only apply to a tougher game. I've bailed myself out of two hands with this play, and it's worth remembering if you ever find yourself in a tough game and make a mistaken call pre-flop.

Your representation of AA or KK has to be taken seriously by a player, if that player is good. If you're against a poor player, there's too much of a chance they'll think "bah, he's bluffing, I'll call to the river" or that he even doesn't think about it at all.

The most recent of the two hands I've done this was at a 10/20 table. I'd sat down and gone through about two cycles, and noticed the table was fairly tough. Lots of raising pre-flop, usually not more than two people to see a flop. I was dealt J9s UTG2, and for some odd reason my brain completely left my head and I called. As soon as I hit "call", I immediately began cursing myself loudly. Sure enough, an aggressive solid player behind me raised it, and it was folded to me.

So I reraised. I was either going to make the play, or may as well dump the hand right there. If the flop didn't hit me perfectly, I was screwed anyway. It was a decision. If I was up against it for real, I'd lose a few extra bets (giving it up to a bet on the flop if capped and I didn't hit). But if I wasn't up against it for real, I'd damn sure make him think he was up against it.

He hesitated, then just called. I knew right off the bat I had him believing, I bet the flop, and he folded. I wound up picking up three small bets on my mistake.

You can't do it often, but if you're in a tough game, every so often you can use that play to bail yourself out of a mistake.

- C -
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You wanna get a load of me when I'm holding J5 and feeling frisky. I'm the reason Jokey is thinking about packing it in.

I hate you AND your J5o.

TMF Jokey

PS: Ironically, J5o is the hand I hate the most. It cost me a tourney, once.
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Interesting. I hadn't run into limp re-raising at the $1/2 or $2/4 tables, and not even at the $3/6 tables until this week. Then again, at the lower limits, a raise behind is pretty rare but some of the calling stations will call your UTG raise without putting you on a hand, so you would want to get your money out there.


I don't know if you remember Al but in the 3/6 game that you, Trick and I played I limp-reraised Trick from utg with AJo. This isn't a play I would normally make but I like messing with Trick and he had already made a similar position raise with KQo.

(Trick was holding AQ, the flop came down AKT - I think - I bet, he raised, it might have been capped; turn a blank, I checked, he bet; river a Q filled his two pair and my straight, I bet he called)
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I don't know if you remember Al but in the 3/6 game that you, Trick and I played I limp-reraised Trick from utg with AJo. This isn't a play I would normally make but I like messing with Trick and he had already made a similar position raise with KQo.

Nope - I probably missed it, but that's not unusual. I tend to do other things while playing online, so I'll turn away from a lot of the action and just note the showdowns.

Albaby
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How about this: Really Bad Advice By Guys Wearing Clown Hats

Ooookay. The anonymity of the internet rears it's ugly head yet again. Well fellas, this is an open letter to all, not just the head pick-on-neo witster (rec, rec). The gloves come off now.


Just to be clear, I was making fun of the brothers Gardner with my statement. As background, I had randomly happened across the following review for Rule Breakers Rule Makers:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684857170/qid
=1072802441//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i0_xgl14/104-5431303-9133544?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Really bad advice by guys wearing clown hats...., June 1, 2003
Reviewer: A reader from Austin, TX USA
This book is chock full of really bad investing advice. It's just another magic stock picking get-rich-quick strategy guide. The most disappoining aspect is the fact that they are so critical of other "Wise" men on Wall Street but push a similar active stock picking strategy of their own. They don't even run portfolios based on this strategy any more because it is so flawed!!


I just wanted to use that phrase somewhere on TMF.

I still believe in the kinder, gentler On Tilt.
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I hate you AND your J5o.

Me too. I lost against it with a QQ overpair when a 5 gave him two pair on the river. Asshat!
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Just to be clear, I was making fun of the brothers Gardner with my statement.

I now wish I'd left that opening para out because I can see how it might appear mean-spirited but at the time I couldn't think of any other way to get into what I thought was a fun post on how a maniac thinks. And trust me, I have frequent, frequent glimpses into what goes through a maniac's mind.

Wait'll you get a load of the posts I'm going to put up tomorrow. I outdid myself tonight. And even made some money, too.

Neo
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Trick suggests that it is never optimal to open-limp from early position with something like AA and I respectfully disagree.

I did? I think I was talking about Ax suited when I said it was a bad move but you see it often.

I think you have to be careful but especially with weak players, the more money the merrier with AA, so do what it takes.

Rick
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I did? I think I was talking about Ax suited when I said it was a bad move but you see it often.


I was working from memory - and read most of the thread last night. In fact I incorrectly attributed something to Naj that couldn't have been Naj since he hadn't posted to the thread yet. I'm guessing neo?

Anyhow, yes you did.


It's a mistake unless they have AA or KK, but if they have that, they should have raised to begin.

The idea is pretty simple... if you are ahead, bet. If behind but drawing, go cheap. Sometimes you want to build a pot, but the flop isn't the time to do it... unless the game is really really tight and you have to take chances to keep people from folding later on.


Post #5249

I think you have to be careful but especially with weak players, the more money the merrier with AA, so do what it takes.


I think for anyone new to the game recommending raising and reraising from any position is best. Once you learn to read the temperament of the tables a little bit then you can pick your poison a little better.

When I first read your post the first thing that flashed to my mind was the 5/10 we were at the other night where I limped AA utg, got a call from sb with his 3x and beat his 3s full with my aces full. I'm pretty sure he would have folded to any preflop raise.
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and by God I even heard one of you mention negative implied odds the other day. WTF is that? I'll tell you what it is. Another popular expression in the losers club.

The only odds a world class player thinks about is the odds of getting one of his sissy Sklansky-Jones-disciple-opponents to fold....

So keep studying your books girls, and trying for that one big bet an hour. But just remember, when the tears begin to flow after suckout #5501, give ol' Neo a call if you want to learn how to play this game from the dark side.


Sniff...'I love you, man. [but you can't have my bud lite']

That was friggin hilarious. Made my coming into work today worthwhile.

Naj
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Yes, I don't mix this move up much and when I do it it pretty much declares AA or KK, maybe AK, but so what? I'm getting more action with a big hand. That's what you want.

It was definitely Hank and not me, but I think the same way, particularly when I'm sitting at the same table with the same 9 other players for 3-8 hours. You've just got to mix it up occasionally - so usually I might plan on slowplaying AA from early, someone raises, so I reraise - switching gears.

Naj
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Anyhow, yes you did.

It's a mistake unless they have AA or KK, but if they have that, they should have raised to begin.

The idea is pretty simple... if you are ahead, bet. If behind but drawing, go cheap. Sometimes you want to build a pot, but the flop isn't the time to do it... unless the game is really really tight and you have to take chances to keep people from folding later on.


I don't see the conflict here. You are simply advocating slowplaying your AA and I think in 90% of the situations, it is not strong enough preflop to do so. YMMV. I do think there are appropriate times to limp-raise. In any case, the main point I made was the the majority of people I see doing that have Axs, and the limp raise is incorrect there even though widely used. More to the point, it is a clear misunderstanding of basic strategy and that is the only reason I pointed it out.

I think people can play anyway that works for them, but when something like a limp raise of Axs is seen, it's clearly a misunderstanding that needs to be pointed out.

Rick
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