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""We're working on this budget. We're going to need a lot of prayer for that," Obama was overheard telling the monk, a light-hearted reference to a fiscal showdown in Washington over tax increases and spending cuts that kick in at the end of the year unless Obama and congressional Republicans can reach a deal."


If the repubs did thiis, every separation of church and stste and atheist group would be in an uproar. The current President does so and nary a word. Can you say "double standard?"


http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/18/15252570-ameri...
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"If the repubs did thiis, every separation of church and stste and atheist group would be in an uproar. The current President does so and nary a word. Can you say "double standard?""

Can you say Rafalca-puckies?

Ken
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Seems like someone wants to manufacture a new "problem." One wonders why....
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"Seems like someone wants to manufacture a new "problem." One wonders why.... "

Because they're collectively 3 y.o children who want their cookie NOW! And how dare anyone say they can't have it!

Ken
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If the repubs did thiis, every separation of church and stste and atheist group would be in an uproar.

That's ridiculous. It's not true and you know it.
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If the repubs did thiis, every separation of church and stste and atheist group would be in an uproar.
_____
Actually, I would be gobsmacked and then celebrate a Republican who is respectful of another religion.

jwinter
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http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/nov...

At the start of a three-nation tour of southeast Asia, President Obama joked Sunday with a Buddhist monk in Thailand that he could use some prayer to help reach a budget deal with Republican lawmakers to avert a fiscal crisis back in the U.S.

"We're working on this budget, we're going to need a lot of prayer for that," Mr. Obama told a monk while touring the Wat Pho Royal Monastery.



"If the repubs did thiis, every separation of church and stste and atheist group would be in an uproar. The current President does so and nary a word. Can you say "double standard?""


Yes, because joking with a Buddhist that we could use magical help to solve our political problems is very equivalent to pushing the Christian religion into every nook & cranny of our government.

It's very equivalent to legislating according to Biblical beliefs. It's just like when Republicans try to restrict access to abortions or birth control, because their religious beliefs say those things are bad regardless of what others believe.

It's very equivalent to removing the separation between church and state. It's just like when Republicans want to post the Christian Ten Commandments in government buildings, because their religious beliefs say that's a good thing regardless of what others believe.

I sure can't see any difference here.

--FY
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"That's ridiculous. It's not true and you know it."

It is true. Throughout the entire campaign, all the dems/libs did is criticize Mitt for his religious affiliation, and any focus on faith-based issues were roundly dismissed.
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"Yes, because joking with a Buddhist that we could use magical help to solve our political problems is very equivalent to pushing the Christian religion into every nook & cranny of our government."

Just like I said. Your ok with the President invoking the need for prayer, but not with Mitt doing so. Typical liberal attitude: do as I say, not as I do.
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I'm not against anyone asking for prayers (though I personally dougt they'll do any good). I don't recall other libs - including very religious ones like DW - saying asking for prayers was a bad thing.

Some liberals and conservatives both agree that churches shouldn't be used as political tools.
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"all the dems/libs did is criticize Mitt for his religious affiliation,"

Only in the Right wing alternate universe. In reality? Not so much.

Personally, IMO, should have made a much bigger fuss out of Willard's indoctrinated magical thinking (and willingness to indoctrinate others) and it's influence on potential major issues facing the USA that he might have had to deal with if the country had elected him.

Ken
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InconclusiveFool says

""We're working on this budget. We're going to need a lot of prayer for that," Obama was overheard telling the monk, a light-hearted reference to a fiscal showdown in Washington over tax increases and spending cuts that kick in at the end of the year unless Obama and congressional Republicans can reach a deal."


If the repubs did thiis, every separation of church and stste and atheist group would be in an uproar. The current President does so and nary a word. Can you say "double standard?"

I can say "horsesh¡t."
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InconclusiveFool says

It is true. Throughout the entire campaign, all the dems/libs did is criticize Mitt for his religious affiliation, and any focus on faith-based issues were roundly dismissed.

He got a whole lot more criticism for being a bloated plutocrat with no identifiable principles.
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riticize Mitt for his religious affiliation, and any focus on faith-based issues were roundly dismissed.

He got a whole lot more criticism for being a bloated plutocrat with no identifiable principles.


and more criticism of his religion by Christian opponents
during primaries
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"It's just like when Republicans want to post the Christian Ten Commandments in government buildings, because their religious beliefs say that's a good thing regardless of what others believe."

I say yes and let's post the Koran and every other religious manuscript as well. If we did so maybe we'd all learn a bit about each other's religion, which would certainly promote tolerance more than the current devisiveness.
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If the repubs did thiis, every separation of church and stste and atheist group would be in an uproar.

I'm not sure you understand the position of those of us firmly on the side of separating church and state.

Separation doesn't mean kids can't pray at school and have their holy book, prayer rug, yarmulke, whatever. It doesn't mean that elected officials can't invoke and worship whatever god they choose. It doesn't mean that the President can't honestly want -- or joke about -- needing prayers to overcome budget problems.

What separation *does* mean is that a single religion cannot be officially sanctioned by the state, nor should holders of one faith (or no faith at all) be beholden to the beliefs or customs of another. That means not forcing non-Christians to have to pray before the big high school football game, or hanging the Ten Commandments in a courtroom.

So, no, I don't think "every separation of church and stste(sic) and atheist group would be in an uproar" if a Republican President did the same thing, as most understand that nuance.

Speck
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So, no, I don't think "every separation of church and stste(sic) and atheist group would be in an uproar" if a Republican President did the same thing, as most understand that nuance.

Speck

--------


Dear Speck,
Nuance is just somewhere there above the heads of Republicans.
Just out of brain's reach. See?

AM
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"So, no, I don't think "every separation of church and stste(sic) and atheist group would be in an uproar" if a Republican President did the same thing, as most understand that nuance."

I don't agree.
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"Separation doesn't mean kids can't pray at school and have their holy book, prayer rug, yarmulke, whatever."

Ok - got it.


"That means not forcing non-Christians to have to pray before the big high school football game"

So let me play this out using your example. We're in Texas where high school football is more important than anything else (as I'm told.) I'm an atheist in the stands enjoying my pork roll, egg and cheese sandwich before the game, and the hypothetical announcer says, "let's pause for a moment of prayer and reflection." Since I'm an atheist, I ignore the announcement and continue to happily enjoy my sandwich. How is that "forcing" me to pray before the game??

I'm a practicing Catholic. You could build a synagouge across the street from me (in fact there is one about 1.5 miles down the road) and it isn't going to make me change my religion. I love my Jewish brethren, and respect their choice, but nothing they could possibly do would covert me to their religion.

The problem with our society is that we've become so insular that no one wants to even acknowledge the other guy/gal's relgion. It was way different when I was growing when at one time or another, all us "kids" went to the other's church/house of worship. Heck, my Father and I were the only Catholics on a bus trip full of Jews, sponsored by their jewish men's group to see a NY Jets game at Shea Stadium back in the early 70's - nobody on that trip tried to convert us!
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We're in Texas where high school football is more important than anything else (as I'm told.) I'm an atheist in the stands enjoying my pork roll, egg and cheese sandwich before the game, and the hypothetical announcer says, "let's pause for a moment of prayer and reflection." Since I'm an atheist, I ignore the announcement and continue to happily enjoy my sandwich. How is that "forcing" me to pray before the game??

I'll concede that few, if any, are actually "forced" to pray. But, then again, asking for a moment of prayer or reflection is fine with me. It's, for instance, leading a Christian prayer over the PA system that "forces" non-Christians to either disrespect those praying by continuing to enjoy their pork roll sandwich (shame on you), or uncomfortably accede.

This evangelical Christian says it much better than I -- and it's rare that you'll ever see me link to WND ;-)

"Coming from a fairly traditional Southern upbringing, I was not at all initially surprised when a voice came over the PA and asked everyone to rise for the invocation. I had been through this same ritual at many other high-school events and thought nothing of it, so to our feet my wife and I stood, bowed our heads, and prepared to partake of the prayer. But to our extreme dismay, the clergyman who took the microphone and began to pray was not a Protestant minister or a Catholic priest, but a Buddhist priest who proceeded to offer up prayers and intonations to god-head figures that our tradition held to be pagan.

We were frozen in shock and incredulity! What to do? To continue to stand and observe this prayer would represent a betrayal of our own faith and imply the honoring of a pagan deity that was anathema to our beliefs. To sit would be an act of extreme rudeness and disrespect in the eyes of our Japanese hosts and neighbors, who value above all other things deference and respect in their social interactions. I am sorry to say that in the confusion of the moment we chose the easier path and elected to continue to stand in silence so as not to create a scene or ill will among those who were seated nearby.

As I thought through the incident over the next few days I supposed that the duty of offering the pre-game prayer rotated through the local clergy and we just happened to arrive on the night that the responsibility fell to the Buddhist priest. However, after inquiring I learned that due to the predominance of Buddhist and Shinto adherents in this town, it was the normal practice to have a member of one these faiths offer the pre-game prayer, and Christian clergy were never included. Needless to say that was our first and last football game. Although many of the students we worked with continued to invite us to the games, we were forced to decline. We knew that if we were to attend again we would be forced to abstain from the pre-game activity. And not wanting to offend our Asiatic neighbors and colleagues, we simply refrained from attending.

The point is this. I am a professional, educated and responsible man who is strong in his faith and is quite comfortable debating the social and political issues of the day. Yet when placed in a setting where the majority culture proved hostile to my faith and beliefs, I became paralyzed with indecision and could not act decisively to defend and proclaim my own beliefs. I felt instantly ostracized and viewed myself as a foreigner in my own land."


http://www.wnd.com/2005/10/32839/

Speck
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That opinion is well written. But I still say that we'd all be be much better off if we paid attention to the teachings of differing faiths, rather ignoring them. As a Catholic kid invited to attend a Jewish classmate's Bar/Bat Mitzvah long ago, it never occurred to me (or my parents) to say no. It was fun, we learned a bit about their religion and culture, and without even realizing it, were also learning religious tolerance. Thx for an interesting discussion.
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But I still say that we'd all be be much better off if we paid attention to the teachings of differing faiths, rather ignoring them.

Agreed.

Speck
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I am not a Buddist, but I picked up a book a few years ago called "Buddist Acts of Compassion" - it was like a Buddist "Chicken Soup for the Soul" collection of short stories and I felt I understood them a little bit better after reading it.

I still pick it up when I have insomnia, stories about about horrible things like brotherly love and helping people and easing the pain of others whenever possible. It's nice.

http://www.amazon.com/Buddhist-Acts-Compassion-Pamela-Bloom/...

My current faith is Christian, of the Pragmatic denomination. As in "how can we help folks instead of arguing dogma" Christianity. It's not one that justifies being a greedy bastid when it comes to helping the poor or starting wars for fun and profit.

Lately I have a hard time finding a church. I stopped attending my current church when the priest started preaching Republicanism instead of the Word of God. I swear, he was like a Fox News Dittohead up there, all fear and anger and conspiracy theories. Still debating just leaving, or leaving with a letter to the Bishop so he understands the cause of his dwindling membership... If I wanted hate-speech I'd watch Fox instead of going to mass. Sad.
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How is that "forcing" me to pray before the game??

Time is money. I paid for my seat in that grandstand. You're wasting my time and my dime.

If you stop the game for a 5 minute prayer rug session, you're wasting more of my time and more of my dimes.

If you stop the game again while people talk in tongues and play with snakes... yup. Wasting more of my time and dimes.

I didn't pay for a prayer meeting. I don't want to do any of your religious ceremonies.

I paid to see some danged football.

Now play ball.
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"I paid to see some danged football.

Now play ball."

Agree - let's also get rid of the cheerleaders and band, dang it. While we're at it, get those stupid animal mascots off the field as well.
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Agree - let's also get rid of the cheerleaders and band, dang it. While we're at it, get those stupid animal mascots off the field as well.

If they are wearing burkas, cassocks, crowns of thorns and dragging crosses up and down the sidelines, or settin' up prayer rugs in the end zone, causing a halt in play, we agree.

See.... we have common ground!
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