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No. of Recommendations: 1
" It just seems like a double standard to me"

***************************************************

People have developed the capacity to have standards, double standards,
inverse standards, no standards, strict standards but no taste, and
any number of absurd beliefs, superstitions, myths, theories, and postulates.
We have also developed the ability to deny any and all of them while believing
fervently.
Sometimes, we forget that every one of us is just human.
We forget that we are all similar even while we are all individuals.

We take great pleasure in blaming others for our problems.
We take more pleasure in blaming others for other's problems.
We take secret pleasure in thinking we might cause other's problems when
no one is looking - and then feel guilty for doing so.

But we change and grow - or stay the same and stagnant - or wish we could do
either or both or at least not so much or a lot more.

Howie52
And when things seem the worst, we laugh at times and ourselves and each other.

Or not.

This board needs a post or twelve.
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..sorry stephen.......i completely missed your joke: selfish vs shellfish......

-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o--o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o


but about the bigger picture........i feel that despite your colleague's
attempt at an apology, he is a bigot and a bully. and he needs to learn how he makes other people feel..oyu have every reason to be proud of your heritage which, as we all know was the BEGINNING.

your colleague didnt realise at first that he made a biased remark--
something about jews and money, i suspect. but he DID attempt to apologise, so he certainly realises that he mispoke.

i think you should have a discussion with him, as difficult as it may be......human resources and others cannot exacty express what YOU felt; they would just give the stock answers which we have all heard time and again.

youmight tell him you were hurt and insulted and that you were disappointed in him..you thought he was better than that...but i dont even know if that would help. much depends on the kind of person he is, and what he learned at home as a boy........

it's 2am/ i've been trying to sleep since midnight, but your story disturbed me so, i've been going over it and again.and again in my head. i do hope you talk to this man. perhaps--just perhaps--you can
improve his brain and the unconscios feelings lurking in his gut...

love,
sasha

in swahili we say: go with blessings. i wish that for you.
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No. of Recommendations: 3
My rule of thumb is that if I think about it again afterwards, instead of having forgotten about it, I visit the person again separately and briefly bring it up.

I once had a colleague who had agreed to get a person in who needed cancer treatment ASAP, although her schedule was full (we all did this). The patient was uninsured. (We all were supposed to see patients who needed real help promptly, and to see uninsured patients cheerfully, but in reality there were degrees of compliance). My colleague's nurse came to me the day before the appointment and told me that something came up, and the doc was now double-booked, and asked if I could see the patient instead. I agreed, and saw the patient instead of eating lunch. That happens, no big deal.

HOWEVER, then it came out that once the uninsured patient had been scheduled with Dr. X, another well-insured patient consult came in, so Dr. X dumped the scheduled uninsured one onto me and gave the well-heeled one the slot (and BTW, didn't miss her own lunch that day). It was a completely unexpected piece of dirtbaggery, and I later did call her on it, partly so that she would never pull that again, but mainly so that it would not be there under the surface festering, and hurt our relationship going forward. She was appropriately ashamed and said she would never do it again, and I think I benefited in other ways, because she did not mistake my niceness for weakness again going forward, and we were able to work well together ever after.

I would pull him aside and briefly mention it; you will be doing you both a favor.
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No. of Recommendations: 2
I don't think he meant to offend me, and we have a good working relationship.

But this bothers me.

What should I do about it? Nothing? Say something to him? To our supervisor? To HR?


I bolded part of this because it really sums up bigotry. It's not whether the coworker meant to offend you, it's whether you were offended. As Sasha said you need to talk to the co-worker and explain what it was about the slur that bothered you.

You say you have a good working relationship and that's good. Hopefully, it will allow you to have a difficult conversation with him. Think about what you want to say, and lay out exactly what it is about what he said that bothered you. Then, explain it to him calmly, and simply so he can see where you are coming from.

There are so many idioms that we use daily that are, on some level, offensive to the subjects they refer, but often, we don't even think about it. Explaining it from your perspective will help him to understand not just that he shouldn't have said it, but also why he shouldn't have said it.

I think most people want to be sensitive, but really don't fully understand "why" a certain word or phrase is offensive.

LWW
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No. of Recommendations: 3
"I am conspicuously Jewish — I wear a yarmulke.

A few days ago I was having a conversation with a coworker and he used the word Jew as a verb. (He was talking about salary negotiations.)

Then, as an afterthought, he said, "No offense."

I don't think he meant to offend me, and we have a good working relationship.

But this bothers me.

What should I do about it? Nothing? Say something to him? To our supervisor? To HR?

I don't want to get him in trouble. But I hate to let it slide. "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

HR folks would tell you to report the incident.

The guy - or gal - will go through a series of "sensitivity training"
classes.

Such classes sometimes do something - and sometimes do the opposite.

Personally, if the use of the phrase bothers you and the individual
and yourself have a good working relationship, talking about the
issue as if you both were adults may actually accomplish something
that training rarely does - it may cause the person to think.

Most everyone in some situation or other will say something stupid.
Something they heard from their parents or uncle joe when they
were young. A lot of jokes about folks of Eastern European
descent were quite popular a while back - and there are some
jokes about all nationalities, races, creeds and colors that
are funny.
But even funny can hurt a fellow if at the wrong time or place
or situation.
And this is why when you are really bothered you need to do something.
Adults talk to each other.
Companies tend to treat their employees as children - frequently
because we all act like children at times.

But before there were policies and laws about "equality" there
were people who once in a while assumed that another person might
just be equally an adult who would listen to a co-worker about
something said that offended.

Howie52
By the same token, you could egg his car windows.
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No. of Recommendations: 3
My husband is Mexican. He was born in Mexico 68 years ago and has been here for the past 63 years.
If he were to take offense every time someone said something about Mexicans, he would have no time to live his life. I have been married to him for 45 years and I have never seen him take offense at that kind of slur. It's water off a duck's back for him.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
Wow.

I wouldn't want to live in a place where I had to deal with overt expressions of bigotry on a regular basis. But I can understand other who don't want to let the bad guys win.
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"I wouldn't want to live in a place where I had to deal with overt expressions of bigotry on a regular basis."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I understand there are groups being recruited for an expedition to Mars.

But as soon as there are people there, the neighborhood may have a drop
in property values.

Howie52
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No. of Recommendations: 2
I want to thank Sasha, oncqueen, LWW, Howie52, and Brooklyn48 for your feedback.

Here's how the story ends:

I decided to seek advice from Dan, a coworker who is a fried of mine, and of the guy who made the remark.

Even before I told Dan what the coworker said, Dan told me the coworker had approached him with basically the same question. Something along the lines of, "I made this really inappropriate remark, and now Steven probably thinks I'm a bigot."

That was good enough for me, and I decided to let the matter drop. I told Dan he could tell the other guy that I accepted his apology.
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I'm really glad it turned out okay. I do wish there was a way for the two of you to have had an in-person conversation, rather than having to go through a 3rd party.

LWW
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thank you for the thank you, steven.....how nice.
so glad it all worked out.


yrs,
sasha
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I come down on the other side of this issue.

I do feel regret that people have their feelings hurt, but often times I think the fact that they do is silly.

I think that "Racism" and "Bigotry" are evident when a person believes a particular skin color or class/group of people is inherently below their own or inherently deserving of lesser treatment or of less human rights.

I do NOT think that they are evident in innocent word usage alone.

Example:

I don't think that "blackface" is automatically racist. Sure, it has a history of being used in a racist way. Sure, it CAN be racist. But that doesn't mean that if I, as a white guy, dress up as Jimmy Hendrix for Halloween, that it is "racist." It means I think Jimmy Hendrix was awesome, and that's it. Some girl in Australia was caught in a photo wearing black makeup on her face. She was instantly vilified on the internet. Turned out the photo wasn't exposed properly. She had been wearing dark purple makeup. Was supposed to be Barney or something. The internet relaxed. I think: Black makeup; purple makeup; whatever; neither one says anything about the mindset of the wearer with regard to another race of people. Sure, plenty of people get offended, but I believe we should protect each other from actual racism and bigotry, not from silly offense taken from innocent behavior of others. I don't think we should accept the definition creep that has obviously opened up the words racism and bigotry to include any little thing that offends somebody.

If I punch a Mexican, that does NOT automatically mean I'm a racist. It means THAT GUY did something, totally unrelated to race, that royally pissed me off. Sure, accuse me of violence. But more often than not the internet will explode with outcries of racism. It's stupid.

I personally have no desire to call anyone the N word. I'll use whatever name/pronoun somebody is happy with. But I'm not ALLOWED to use it? Even though I wouldn't mean it in any racist way? Even though you use it YOURSELF? Because my ancestors were racist A-holes? Stupid.

My wife is Asian. I make Asian jokes occasionally. I personally favor the ones about the stereotype of short Asian women being bad drivers. Because, you guessed it, my wife is not that great of a driver. And she's short. And it's funny once in a while. That's it. I love my wife like crazy. I think she's a BETTER person than me. I don't even know statistically if the stereotype has any basis in truth or not. It just makes us laugh. That's it. No animosity intended.

And that's the real difference. Racism and Bigotry require Intent. If you innocently say something to me, and it turns out I don't happen to like it, that does NOT mean you're a racist or a bigot.

xtn
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Racism and Bigotry require Intent.

Let's grant that point.

But the language (e.g., the use of "jew" as a verb in talking about salary negotiations) can still be offensive.

The speaker can speak without the intent to cause offense -- perhaps he speaks unthinkingly -- and can still count as a person who used offensive speech. We see this sometimes in children and foreigners -- but also sometimes in people who should really know better.

culcha
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But the language (e.g., the use of "jew" as a verb in talking about salary negotiations) can still be offensive.

Oh, of course. I just don't think OFFENSIVE speech automatically means racist or bigoted speech, as so much of the internet seems to think it does.

We see this sometimes in children and foreigners -- but also sometimes in people who should really know better.

I know better, but do it sometimes anyway. I don't think a life of always trying to avoid offending the easily offended is a very fun life. I'm able to do it most days, but just once in a while I let something out that I know is going to offend somebody somewhere, and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

xtn
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My biggest complaint with all of this is that certain groups of people can use offensive language about their particular group that anyone outside their group is not allowed to. Not that I want to use those terms. It just seems like a double standard to me. If you don't want folks outside your group using those words, then don't use them yourselves.
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No. of Recommendations: 1
" It just seems like a double standard to me"

***************************************************

People have developed the capacity to have standards, double standards,
inverse standards, no standards, strict standards but no taste, and
any number of absurd beliefs, superstitions, myths, theories, and postulates.
We have also developed the ability to deny any and all of them while believing
fervently.
Sometimes, we forget that every one of us is just human.
We forget that we are all similar even while we are all individuals.

We take great pleasure in blaming others for our problems.
We take more pleasure in blaming others for other's problems.
We take secret pleasure in thinking we might cause other's problems when
no one is looking - and then feel guilty for doing so.

But we change and grow - or stay the same and stagnant - or wish we could do
either or both or at least not so much or a lot more.

Howie52
And when things seem the worst, we laugh at times and ourselves and each other.

Or not.

This board needs a post or twelve.
Print the post Back To Top