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Hollowpoints is in this hand as well. Again, my notes show that he consistently bets at any Ace, any pair, and any three flush on the board.


khaithedog posts small blind (1)
smokeyr posts big blind (3)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to khaithedog [ 8c, Kc ]
ruger9mm calls (3)
Hollowpoints calls (3)
acgirl2021 calls (3)
khaithedog calls (2)
smokeyr checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7h, Tc, Kh ]
khaithedog bets (3)
smokeyr calls (3)
ruger9mm calls (3)
Hollowpoints calls (3)
acgirl2021 calls (3)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4h ]
khaithedog checks.
smokeyr checks.
ruger9mm checks.
Hollowpoints bets (6)
acgirl2021 calls (6)
khaithedog raises (12) to 12
smokeyr folds.
ruger9mm folds.
Hollowpoints calls (6)
acgirl2021 folds.

At the time I was trying to be cute. I had been betting my flush draws hard all night and figured I had a reasonable chance of representing the heart flush with the check raise. When Hollowpoints bet out (like I knew he would), I figured I my plan was coming together. When everyone else but Hollowpoints folded, I felt like I was in pretty good shape.

** Dealing River ** : [ Jc ]
khaithedog bets (6)
Hollowpoints calls (6)

Figured after the check raise, a bet out here was my best chance win the pot. Agree? Disagree?

Steve
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Dealt to khaithedog [ 8c, Kc ]
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7h, Tc, Kh ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4h ]

When Hollowpoints bet out (like I knew he would), I figured I my plan was coming together. When everyone else but Hollowpoints folded, I felt like I was in pretty good shape.


Steve,

I think you have to go with your gut about the implicit collusion here. Hollow can definitely be on something worse than top-pair mid-kicker, but you might scare K9 off their hand. Was everybody else at the table pretty passive? That can sometimes be a great configuration - one maniac and a passive table.

By the way, would everybody agree completing for 2/3 of a bet with K8s with everyone in, with crappy position the rest of the hand?

dan
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At the time I was trying to be cute. I had been betting my flush draws hard all night and figured I had a reasonable chance of representing the heart flush with the check raise. When Hollowpoints bet out (like I knew he would), I figured I my plan was coming together. When everyone else but Hollowpoints folded, I felt like I was in pretty good shape.

This is a great idea, but It needs to be used against someone who will fold to the check raise. Hollowpoints, from what I've seen, is not it. At 3/6 it's hard to use your chips like the weapons you think they should be.

Figured after the check raise, a bet out here was my best chance win the pot. Agree? Disagree?

Agreed, but again, you have to be able to identify the players you can use this against. Not every player understands when someone is representing something. Big bluffers, will seldom be bluffed.

So how did these hands turn out?

-Ryan
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So how did these hands turn out?

Ryan,

On the QQ hand he had J3o and was completely bluffing on the flop, and then got trapped in the pot the way he see things once the J hit the turn.

On the flush hand, he actually had the T high flush. My turn check raise slowed him down, and he just called the river. I still think the check-raise was the right move here. Even a bona fide super bluffer catches a hand once in a while.

Steve

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This one seems very straight forward to me HEFAP. Knowing the bluffer will bet if checked to him, the check-raise may well force a hand that is ahead of yours to fold where a single bet might not have. You are now heads up against a habitual bluffer and appear much more likely to win the pot.


I wonder though, if your raise scared him into check/call mode with a made flush, are you correct in categorizing him as a LAG player?
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By the way, would everybody agree completing for 2/3 of a bet with K8s with everyone in, with crappy position the rest of the hand?

Easy call for me.

B.
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On the QQ hand he had J3o and was completely bluffing on the flop, and then got trapped in the pot the way he see things once the J hit the turn.

On the flush hand, he actually had the T high flush. My turn check raise slowed him down, and he just called the river. I still think the check-raise was the right move here. Even a bona fide super bluffer catches a hand once in a while.

Steve


To me, you just explained why you shouldn't bluff this guy without a competitive hand. He's going to call you down. You can't afford to be called down on stone bluffs.

-Ryan
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I like the way you played this one. The turn raise is for value and for protection. It may have a chance of folding a slightly better king, and it definitely could fold a low heart or a lower pair that has outs to beat you.

Figured after the check raise, a bet out here was my best chance win the pot. Agree? Disagree?

Looks like a value bet to me. He'll call with a worse pair a lot more often than he has the flush. I don't think you have any real chance of moving him off a better hand at this point.

B.
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To me, you just explained why you shouldn't bluff this guy without a competitive hand. He's going to call you down. You can't afford to be called down on stone bluffs.

On the other hand if he's been running over the table, you get to the river on a busted draw, the pot is biggish, and you think there is a good chance he is on a stone bluff, then you might find opportunities to win the pot. If he is an inverterate bluffer then he'll get to the river with nothing fairly often, so, especially if heads up, it will be appropriate to sometimes try to take the pot on the river with a bluff when you have no chance at showdown. I.e. you get there with middle suited connectors ... you think he'll fold unimproved high cards lower than an ace, the board is coordinated low. Definitely would have to pick your spots.

B.
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By the way, would everybody agree completing for 2/3 of a bet with K8s with everyone in, with crappy position the rest of the hand?

Easy call for me.


At 6.5 to 1, for me this is borderline. Whether you play it should depend on how you play post-flop relative to your opponents.

Strictly speaking, these odds are good enough for a medium suited king but the question is whether you can get away from this hand when it is second best.

This hand shows how hard that is. And I'm not being critical of how the hand was played. I don't know if it was played optimally, but it certainly wasn't played poorly. It's just tough to play this hand with a flop like that.
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At 6.5 to 1, for me this is borderline.

With 4 other players limping in, I like a suited king out of the SB. Chances are with the limps nobody has a big hand, and if I get a favorable flop I can win a nice pot and probably protect any hand I get with aggression from early position.

Strictly speaking, these odds are good enough for a medium suited king but the question is whether you can get away from this hand when it is second best.

If I had been raised on the flop, I would have folded. When everybody just called I had reason to believe I was ahead.

I don't think this is a case of not being able to get off the weak K. I certainly wasn't in love with the hand. This was a case of isolating against a player who always bluffed at flushing boards. It's just that this time he had it. At least he was kind enough not to bet it.

Magnus asked if we can really call the guy a LAG if he shut down to a single turn raise with a made flush. Maybe LAG is the wrong term. Hollowpoints is definitely very loose, and he constantly bluffs. Maybe LAG is the wrong term, but I don't know what other one to use.

Steve
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Magnus asked if we can really call the guy a LAG if he shut down to a single turn raise with a made flush. Maybe LAG is the wrong term. Hollowpoints is definitely very loose, and he constantly bluffs. Maybe LAG is the wrong term, but I don't know what other one to use.

A loser!

Maybe it's some guy who loves making fancy plays. I've seen some of those people before.
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If I had been raised on the flop, I would have folded. When everybody just called I had reason to believe I was ahead.

I assume this means "might have folded". Depending on exactly how things play out, you'd often want to see the turn for one SB.

But anyway, while you are probably ahead, you might not be and have a good chance of geting outdrawn if you are. It's the combination that sucks here.

I don't think this is a case of not being able to get off the weak K. I certainly wasn't in love with the hand. This was a case of isolating against a player who always bluffed at flushing boards. It's just that this time he had it. At least he was kind enough not to bet it.

Well, I certainly agree that isolating with the LAG is a great idea here. Although, why not try for it on the flop? Plus, you can still get out for cheap if it is 2 bets to you when it comes around.

Maybe this is just semantics, but I'm not suggesting you were in "love with the hand", just saying there are lots of ways to lose here. And with this hand it can be really tricky to find an exit point, even for a very good player. Yeah he had the flush, but he could also have had a better kicker, some crap 2 pair, or a semi-bluffed high heart that hits on the river.

Magnus asked if we can really call the guy a LAG if he shut down to a single turn raise with a made flush. Maybe LAG is the wrong term. Hollowpoints is definitely very loose, and he constantly bluffs. Maybe LAG is the wrong term, but I don't know what other one to use.

LAG is fine here. LAG does not imply idiot. Some are pretty decent. And often they turn passive in the face of aggression. Sometimes LAG just means they see too many flops and will auto-bet the flop if checked to even with nothing -- or will just semi-bluff too much. It's a pretty broad classification.
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