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No. of Recommendations: 7
Prior to marriage my wife was all over me. She WANTED me. She was great in bed. As soon as we went on the honeymoon, that all stopped. We've been married 1.5 years now, we've had sex 6 times.

I've talked to her about this a few times and she said, "I'm just not in the mood, you need to understand a woman's needs. We don't work like men."

To be honest, I think withholding sex is cruel and unusual punishment. We are both in our mid-30's. I work my butt off for her and treat her with respect. I don't pressure her into sex, again I've only brought this up twice.

I'm posting this because I'm simply starting not to care about her. I'm starting to intentionally avoid her. I would never cheat or divorce her, but I can't help but think deep down inside she just wanted to get married, but she didn't want what came with it, me.

She has financial security now and we have a son. I think that's what she wanted... I could come or go.

I know women avoid sex during pregnancy a lot or even after because they are tired. I accept that. But the fact is, prior to being pregnant she was the same. As soon as we got married, she turned cold.

I'm becoming apathetic towards her. I'm worried about that. I believe love comes from God and we share that together, intimacy is a result of love, and that's the problem, I think she doesn't love me, or if she does, she simply has no interest in sex. Since she was interested in sex just prior to marriage, I think I was played a little bit. She gave me what I wanted to get what she wanted.

Advice is appreciated. We have had sex 1 time in the past year. Ugh.
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How old are you? How long did you date before you got married? How long after the wedding did she get pregnant?
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I'm 37 she's 34. We both are in decent shape. To be honest, she's downright beautiful, naturally beautiful and she's a runner/yoga type so she's athletic.

We dated 8 months prior to getting married.

She got pregnant 6 months after marriage, but it's what we both wanted and she's very happy with our son. She's a very good mother.
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No. of Recommendations: 3
I'd have to have more information, but my experience is that a high percentage of wives withhold sex as "punishment."
Punishment for something either real or imaginary you may have done.
Punishment because she wishes she never got married.
Punishment because she just doesn't like sex now that she 'landed you.'
I hope your situation improves very soon. Because she is driving you right into the arms of another women, or a local Lady of the Night, or long sessions visiting porn on the internet.

This is serious. Have you thought of discussing this with profession help?????

UncleGuido
Been there
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No. of Recommendations: 3
So you had sex for 8 months before you got married, and then you must have had some sex to get her pregnant.

Women often lose they sex drive during pregnancy and after the children come. If you want sex, the best thing you can do right now is get her some time away from the baby where the two of you can relax and enjoy each other again.

Get someone to take the baby for a long weekend and take her out of town to a spa. Get her a massage and a romantic dinner.

Just be sweet to her.

You married for her better or worse and you are only 1.5 years into it and talking about not loving her anymore.

You can always masturbate to relieve tension until you are able to get some time away.
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No. of Recommendations: 5
I believe love comes from God and we share that together, intimacy is a result of love, and that's the problem, I think she doesn't love me, or if she does, she simply has no interest in sex.

Ok, gonna be totally mean for a second. (Then some ideas.) So does this mean god is punishing you by taking her love away from you? I mean think about that.

Love comes from inside. It comes from the person. A person makes their own choices about loving or being cruel.

Are there any other signs of love? Does she spend time with you? Do you do things together? Do you share moments of intimate conversation? If there are signs of love...but just lack of sex then there are things you can do...

1) She if she is interested in looking for a medical reason (It is NOT normal to only have sexual release once a year.)

2) She if she is willing to go to marriage counciling (They may be able to convice her to get medical treatment rather than it coming from you.)

3) Find out what you can do that would turn her on. (Maybe you have changed and don't know it...does your job make you smell funny, did you stop shaving things, etc.)

Now, if there are no other signs of a relationship, then not much to do to but think about going your seperate ways. Be careful though, because if she was only in it for support, then she maybe just waiting for the divorce settlement. But a marriage can be ended for there being no sexual relations.

(Now, keep in mind, I have never been married and have made it to my mid 30's still single, but with a decent amount of sexual experience with women to know that a healthy woman has a STRONG sex drive.)

Buffy
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Dang...i meant..."See if she.."
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Thanks for your replies so far.

RE: "Ok, gonna be totally mean for a second. (Then some ideas.) So does this mean god is punishing you by taking her love away from you?"

No. I don't think that. I think if my wife doesn't love me, it's because she chooses not to. I think that not beign intimate with someone can be a natural result of not loving them.

If there is anything that I'm doing wrong, I've given her opportunities to tell me. If she doesn't feel comfortable with doing so, which is a good possibility, then I don't know how to approach that.

I've asked her to see a marriage counselor with me because I felt we needed to get on the same page (didn't even bring up sex) and she didn't want to. She felt we should be able to fix our own problems. The problem is, she doesn't want to fix anything. I think she likes it this way.
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First of all, there are plenty of healthy women who do NOT have a strong sex drive. (I am one of them, so I should know.) But that's a random response to another poster, not to your original post.

For you...

Only your wife is in a position to be able to explain her apparent change in sex drive. The cause could be physical, emotional, or manipulation. She probably has a pretty good idea which, but it's possible that she doesn't. My point is, though, that you *have to talk to HER about it* -- more than twice. Talk to her (gently, and in the right spirit) until you get her to actually realize that this is important to you. It's possible that she doesn't get that.

Turn it around. Imagine that you were doing something -- possibly unintentionally -- that was driving her nuts. If there's the slightest chance you didn't realize the seriousness of the issue, wouldn't you want her to communicate until she got through to you?

Wishing you the best,
scolly
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No. of Recommendations: 5
I have discussed getting professional help with her. I actually went to a couselor for a few sessions trying to see if the problem was on my end. The couselor wanted to talk with both of us, but my wife didn't want to go. This wasn't even about sex, it was just about, "Why is it that things don't seem right?"

We are strong Christians. I would rather die than cheat and I just don't see that happening, but in a way I guess I am. I'm taking care of my physical an emotional release 3-4 times a week in private ways, if you know what I mean. She knows I won't cheat on her with another woman and I think that's another reason why she knows she doesn't have to put much effort into keeping me satisfied.

She has a tendancy to hold things against me for months before telling me that she's pissed. That could be it.. maybe it's punishment. Funny thing though, maybe I'm naive, but I think I'm a decent husband. I go to school for my Masters in Divinity full-time, I then work a full-time job at night to pay the bills, so I bring in 90% of our income which is a good income. When I'm not working, I'm taking care of the baby and I DO take care of him. I don't know what more I can do. I could probably clean up better, but I'm always running around, so I'm not a metro-sexual, I'm an upper middle class working guy.
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Thanks for your words. I only talked to her twice because I didn't want to push her or make her feel uncomfortable about it. Talking about sex seems to turn it into a duty.. If it were just sex one time, this would be an easy thing to resolve.. the problem is that this is a lifestyle. I have to change the entire lifestyle. I pray that talking about it starts that change.
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No. of Recommendations: 21
RouterX,

Are you giving her oral? If not: there's your problem. Try going down on her and see if the problem doesn't resolve itself in about 90 seconds.
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No. of Recommendations: 19
RouterX:

Prior to marriage my wife was all over me. She WANTED me. She was great in bed. As soon as we went on the honeymoon, that all stopped. We've been married 1.5 years now, we've had sex 6 times.

Yours is not an uncommon problem, but there may be some good reasons for it. We went through a couple of times like that, a number of years ago, so maybe there's something in what "fixed" it for us that can help.

You said everything was great before you were married, and I gather it was until she got pregnant, too, after you were married -- right? Did she really suddenly seem to lose all interest after the baby? Sounds that way, if you've been married for 1-1/2 years, or 18 months, and she got pregnant 6 months in, with 9 months waiting for the baby, leaving only about 3 months since the birth. Did I do the math okay?

She may stilll suffer from post partem depression, which is fairly common. I suggest a visit to her ob/gyn. Just tell her lovingly that "Something is obviously changed" and see if she will try to help you both.

A question I hate to ask, but I will: Does she envy and/or resent your extra time for the church? THAT is common among wives of clergy, too, you know!

FWIW, we went through an identical problem after our first one! Sure, I knew to let her recover after the delivery, but after 3 months of zero sex I got rather perturbed, too. Odd thing was that she'd make comments like "Nothing's wrong. Why do you keep pestering me?" (!) I tried it all: extra kindness, flowers, gentleness, etc. Nothing worked.

Finally, I convinced her to see her doctor. That was not easy, but I told her "Something's wrong. Something has really changed." So she went to see her ob/gyn.

Guess what? The damn birth control PILLS apparently were screwing up her hormone levels, per the doctor, so he changed to something else (and there must be a lot more choices now) and she was soon back to normal -- with a healthy appetite! We used to shake our heads over the change, and she was grateful that I persisted.

Might that be your trouble? I have no idea.

Despite your feelings of frustration, in the meantime, I suggest extreme tolerance and patience, if you love this woman, as I gather that you do, and also for the sake of that precious little child. If you love one another, hopefully this will pass. It did for us, and that as 40+ years ago.

I wish you luck.

Peace.

Vermonter
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She had a baby three months ago??? Good lord man. Have some patience. Rub a few more out and let her get back to her normal schedule a little bit.

It is hard work having a baby!
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RouterX,

Are you giving her oral? If not: there's your problem. Try going down on her and see if the problem doesn't resolve itself in about 90 seconds.


Unless he doesn't know how, which would make things worse.

I think the problem could be that your wife suffers from what is usually a man thing, the Madonna-Whore complex. Being such devout Christians, I wonder if she thought sex was just dandy before you got married because she could be the "bad" girl and although your faith forbids (I think) sex prior to marriage you were doing it anyway. When you got married she became the "good" girl and hence sex became bad but not in a good way, if you get what I mean. It was OK to be the "whore" when you weren't married, but nice married ladies don't like sex. And mothers REALLY aren't supposed to like sex.

Just a thought.

Andrea


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Andrea:

It was OK to be the "whore" when you weren't married, but nice married ladies don't like sex. And mothers REALLY aren't supposed to like sex.

Huh? Says who? C'mon.....

We still both enjoy sex a lot, if not as often as we once did, and we did when we had the kids, too! We DID have some temporary problems, as I said in my other post, and sometimes pressures of work and kids and all slowed us down, but the desire was always there and, thankfully, still is.

We also found that my vasectomy at age 31 (after all three kids) seemed to perk us both up, too, knowing that we no longer had to fear surprises!

RV
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Some women (espeicially "religious" women) may not WANT oral, even if they enjoy "regular" sex. Trust me. I've got one of those, too.

RV
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It was OK to be the "whore" when you weren't married, but nice married ladies don't like sex. And mothers REALLY aren't supposed to like sex.

Huh? Says who? C'mon.....

You've never heard of the Madonna Whore Complex?

It's usually a guy thing, and is common in many cultures where men separate love and sex, reserving love for their wives and sex for other women.

You can google it.

We still both enjoy sex a lot, if not as often as we once did, and we did when we had the kids, too! We DID have some temporary problems, as I said in my other post, and sometimes pressures of work and kids and all slowed us down, but the desire was always there and, thankfully, still is.

This isn't about you.

Andrea


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The only reason I don't think this might be about post partem depression is because the OP said that his wife's interest in sex stopped when they went on their honeymoon. Nothing to do with a baby.

Andrea
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No. of Recommendations: 5
If she's not willing to go seek out some help, she's basically saying she won't change.

I have a close male friend who had a similar problem. However, he didn't have polite or non-discussions about it, he was upfront. He told her, I expect sex 3 times a week. I expect that you will enjoy it or learn how to enjoy this kind of intimacy with me.

He didnt say it just once. He said it over and over and with patience, but firmness. She was willing to change because it was important to him. She also knew that he wouldnt put up with a spouse who was not interested in having regular intimacy. They now have sex regularly.

He would actually prefer to have sex 2-3 times a day, but that is a whole other story ;-)

Anyone who is not interested in giving companionship to someone who they have chosen for a mate, is not going to neglect them in just one area. There will be other areas that you wont be treated well. If not yet (year and a half, only!!) then with the passing years.

You got a rocky start, but best to find out if she is a life companion or just some pretty girl who is uninterested in putting in effort to please her mate. It doesnt matter what excuses she comes up with, the important thing is what she demonstrates. So far, she's created quite a bit of distance in your intimate relations. Her carrying grudges against you, is actually the biggest red flag, imo.

~j
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This isn't about you.

Andrea



Dear Abby,
Is there a way to politely tell a message board poster that it is actually "Okay" that other posters share personal experiences?

Sincerely,
~witness in S&Rville

~j
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If she's not willing to go seek out some help, she's basically saying she won't change

I agree that seeking help is key.

I have a close male friend who had a similar problem. However, he didn't have polite or non-discussions about it, he was upfront. He told her, I expect sex 3 times a week. I expect that you will enjoy it or learn how to enjoy this kind of intimacy with me.

I don't think that this bully approach will work with a lot of women.

Anyone who is not interested in giving companionship to someone who they have chosen for a mate, is not going to neglect them in just one area. There will be other areas that you wont be treated well. If not yet (year and a half, only!!) then with the passing years.

You got a rocky start, but best to find out if she is a life companion or just some pretty girl who is uninterested in putting in effort to please her mate. It doesnt matter what excuses she comes up with, the important thing is what she demonstrates. So far, she's created quite a bit of distance in your intimate relations. Her carrying grudges against you, is actually the biggest red flag, imo.


Agree, but am not sure if the grudge thing is just a perception or a reality.

Andrea

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I don't think that this bully approach will work with a lot of women.



Please don't mistake "bullying" with having a very straighforward conversation about sexual realtions.

If you can't work out money and sexual issues to be on the same page, you are in for a lifetime of trouble. Both can be treated very honestly and factually.

Agree, but am not sure if the grudge thing is just a perception or a reality.

Andrea


He should also address that issue. This kind of habit is not uncommon to women. Passive/agressive behavior to control others IS BULLYING.

~j
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Dear Abby,
Is there a way to politely tell a message board poster that it is actually "Okay" that other posters share personal experiences?

Sincerely,
~witness in S&Rville

~j


Dear Ann,

I fail to see how telling someone who is obviously very unhappy in his marriage that he and his wife enjoy sex 25 times a day, in every room in the house, flinging from the chandeliers, on the hood of the car, under the old oak tree, in the hammock, etc., etc, is in any way helpful. Vermonter seems to take every opportunity to discuss his sex life, whether it is germaine or not, and it feels to me like public masturbation. Which may be what some people want to read, but it doesn't help someone who is looking for help.

Andrea, Abby to you
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Please don't mistake "bullying" with having a very straighforward conversation about sexual realtions.

Telling a woman "You will have sex with me 3 times a week and you will like it" sounds a bit like bullying to me. At the least, it sounds insensitive.

Andrea
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I think she shows a mean passive/agressive streak by "liking it" a lot before marriage and now keeping him at bay from even discussing it.

There's bullying going on there. There is only one way to stop the bullying and that is to address the issues that the bully doesnt want to deal with.

Plus, it worked in my friend's case. She was not prioritizing sexual intimacy until he told her it was important that she join him for it and enjoy it too.

Some people find honest and frank discussions intimidating. I know it happens even on message boards like this one.

~j
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I think she shows a mean passive/agressive streak by "liking it" a lot before marriage and now keeping him at bay from even discussing it.

There's bullying going on there. There is only one way to stop the bullying and that is to address the issues that the bully doesnt want to deal with.


You may be right. You may be wrong.

Plus, it worked in my friend's case. She was not prioritizing sexual intimacy until he told her it was important that she join him for it and enjoy it too.

So it worked for your friend. That doesn't mean it's going to work in this situation. It may, but it may not.

Some people find honest and frank discussions intimidating. I know it happens even on message boards like this one.

And the OP's wife may find open and frank discussion intimidating which could force her to move even further away from him.

For him to tell her that she'll have sex with him 3 times a week and like it could just backfire.

Andrea


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but in a way I guess I am. I'm taking care of my physical an emotional release 3-4 times a week in private ways,


That is not cheating.
Don't beat yourself up over it. It is TOTALLY NORMAL to need that release. And it is hopefully part of why we find a partner.

Buffy
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She knows I won't cheat on her with another woman and I think that's another reason why she knows she doesn't have to put much effort into keeping me satisfied.

So she doesn't love you. Part of a loving relationship is doing things just because it makes the other person happy. This is a one sided relationship. You give; she takes.

You definitely need to talk to her; and not in a casual conversation either. It needs to be a sit down, uncomfortable, direct conversation.

CiB
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For him to tell her that she'll have sex with him 3 times a week and like it could just backfire.

I know three VERY sexual woman right now that would slap me if I tried that statement. I know another not so sexual that would never talk to me again.

I have to support A on this one. The women friends I know would not take that statement to be constructive in ANY way.

Buffy
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He told her, I expect sex 3 times a week. I expect that you will enjoy it or learn how to enjoy this kind of intimacy with me.

I agree with Andrea too. It's all in the verbiage (and maybe this was not the verbiage he actually used?). If my husband said that to me, it would likely turn me off to him permanently.

If my husband said to me, instead, something like ... "Sex is really important to me. I know it's not as important to you, but I really need sex at least three times a week -- and more would be better -- do you think that you can do that for me? And it's important to me that you enjoy this too; it's not the same if you just endure it." ... Well, in that case, he would likely start to get sex way more than 3x/week. But I don't see the original verbiage working with very many women. (And it's not about manipulation, guys; it's about feeling respected.)

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No. of Recommendations: 17
Here's another thought: is there sexual abuse in her history?

She may not have told you. In fact, if she hasn't dealt with it, she likely wouldn't have told you. It might also be part of her strong desire to stay away from counseling - some people deal with it by stuffing it into a box and trying to forget the box is there.

In your shoes, I'd probably do and say whatever was necessary to get her into that counselor's office with you. Take the blame, if you have to - tell her you need her help to communicate to the counselor what it is you need to "fix." Get her in there, get her talking.

That said, you may want to wait a bit longer before tackling this issue. Three months post-partum I was nowhere near back to my normal hormonal stability; it was about 4-1/2 months before I started feeling like myself again. (I'm not talking about my sex drive - more my emotional stability, and my ability to deal with conflict and stress.)

My sympathies are with you, RouterX. But I agree with those people who are telling you you're going to need to make it clear that this is a serious issue in your marriage, or you're just going to end up living with it. And that's no way to live.

Best of luck,
-lizmonster
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<<I know three VERY sexual woman right now that would slap me if I tried that statement. I know another not so sexual that would never talk to me again.>>


You can now say that you know four.

;-D
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No. of Recommendations: 16
I only talked to her twice because I didn't want to push her or make her feel uncomfortable about it. Talking about sex seems to turn it into a duty.. If it were just sex one time, this would be an easy thing to resolve.. the problem is that this is a lifestyle.

Understood why it's a problem, and I think you've been more than patient during the first phase of your marriage. You seem like a decent guy, and I hope you can work this out. Something is clearly wrong if she stopped liking sex as early as the honeymoon. I don't want to jump to conclusions about what that "something" is, because the possibilities are endless.

Post-partum issues (depression or just exhaustion) could be complicating the situation now. But this can't be the only problem, based on what you've related. Just keep in mind that the solution may not be simple, if multiple things are going on. Might take awhile to resolve.

And finally, I wanted to mention that the reason I am emphasizing the need to talk to her -- persistently, until it gets through to her how serious the issue is -- is because of recent and personal experience....

My sex drive is pretty low, as mentioned earlier, and always kind of has been. Sex just has never been as important to me as it is for the average person -- particularly the average male. Which is not to say that I don't ever have sex; but I don't need it regularly, and frequently it slides off my radar altogether. The physical drive isn't there, and the emotional drive is a bit spotty.

My last relationship lasted almost 6 years. For the first several years, xBF was the most patient soul on the face of the earth; but he also did me the disservice of never talking to me about his real feelings about the matter (not to mention several other critical issues that were also bothering him at the time). He was the quiet type, and he was not at all upfront about his needs or feelings.

About 3-4 years into our relationship, I started to notice that his behavior toward me in general had subtly changed. He was still a good guy, and he still treated me with respect -- but his eyes didn't light up when I walked in the room anymore. He wasn't grabbing every opportunity he had to kiss me, touch me, or tell me he loved me. Sometimes he seemed to prefer being by himself, and he took up hobbies that deliberately put distance between us. In short, he still loved me, but he no longer appeared "crazy in love" with me anymore. I was baffled, and hurt. I couldn't imagine what had caused the change. Our relationship started to spiral downward, and other smaller problems grew in significance. By the time that he finally opened up about how much my behavior in the early years had hurt him, our relationship was beyond repair.

I hope it's clear from the above that I made a lot of mistakes in the relationship, and I take responsibility for my role in our decline. But I'm not certain he recognizes how much his failure to communicate with me also contributed. If I had understood the problems earlier, I could have done something about them; and we would probably still be together.

In fairness -- and another possible parallel to your situation -- he did actually try to talk about a few of his issues a little bit early on...but rarely, and half-heartedly, and he did not persist until I took him seriously. We came from two very different backgrounds, and our values and assumptions were polar opposites. I guess he expected me to be able to read his mind, or maybe he just thought that our values were more similar than they were. Don't know. But a passing comment or complaint was his way of raising a major red flag; and I simply didn't catch on to that until it was much too late.

One good thing is that I came out of that relationship with a better appreciation for how much communication matters in a relationship.




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<<I know three VERY sexual woman right now that would slap me if I tried that statement. I know another not so sexual that would never talk to me again.>>
--------

Make it five. Not only that, but the guy had better be wearing a cup.
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RouterX,

lizmonster said:

Here's another thought: is there sexual abuse in her history?

A very valid point, amongst many. A quick memory check could indicate quite a bit. In the early early parts of your relationship, did she come on strong or did you engage sexually unusually fast? I know many here would might say that's an idication of sluttyness, but I would beg to differ and say if it's true, it would be indicative of an area for further investigation and DEFINITELY something for counseling. The hot cold switch is a another good indicator if taken together.

So, in summary from what I've seen:
1. Need to have a grownup conversation in a non-sexual place, like the kitchen table (No jokes. I know)
2. Need to check on medical issues. The Pill, anti-deppresants, post partum, etc.
3. Need to check emotional like sexual abuse, molestation, rape, and then seek counseling.

Hope this helps and I wish you the best of luck.

-spookysquid

-spookysquid
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Make it five. Not only that, but the guy had better be wearing a cup.

Ok, now ya'll are scarin' me.

"Puff up, they hate it when you do that!"

Buffy
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Andrea:

Why the apparent ire?

You've never heard of the Madonna Whore Complex? It's usually a guy thing, and is common in many cultures where men separate love and sex, reserving love for their wives and sex for other women. You can google it.

It was OK to be the "whore" when you weren't married, but nice married ladies don't like sex. And mothers REALLY aren't supposed to like sex.

Whether or not that concept is "common in some cultures", it is NOT necessarily the way ALL or even MOST mature men (not boys) think, nor need it be.

Again, quoting you:

This isn't about you.

No, it's not about me. It's about a young man and his wife, who love one another, according to his post, but who are struggling with a big problem, which is why he posted here, seeking help and advice.

My advice was an attempt to offer some possible things to help, and (I hope) may have been more helpful than just telling him about the "Madonna Whore Complex -- a guy thing", which seems NOT to be his problem.

RV
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Andrea:

(Not Abby, by the way. You're no Abby, I'm afraid.)

I fail to see how telling someone who is obviously very unhappy in his marriage that he and his wife enjoy sex 25 times a day, in every room in the house, flinging from the chandeliers, on the hood of the car, under the old oak tree, in the hammock, etc., etc, is in any way helpful. Vermonter seems to take every opportunity to discuss his sex life, whether it is germaine or not, and it feels to me like public masturbation. Which may be what some people want to read, but it doesn't help someone who is looking for help.

Huh???? I don't recall saying like that! I only mentioned that we, too, had had problems, and that a visit to the ob/gyn helped by changing her pills! I never said we're acting like mad animals, now or ever. Actually, I suspect we're "normal" or maybe "low normal", but happy. Is that "bad"?

Do I detect a bit of hyperbole here, perhaps due to injection of some of your own frustrations and anger, for whatever reason?

Calm down, please, and try to focus on the poster's concerns.

RV
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j:

Thanks for the support. I sense a very unhappy and angry lady there, who, for whatever reason, is choosing to misread and somehow misinterpret things. Sad, but it's a free board.

Peace! ;)

RV
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Why the apparent ire?

Vermonter,

This from your post to OP

We still both enjoy sex a lot, if not as often as we once did, and we did when we had the kids, too! We DID have some temporary problems, as I said in my other post, and sometimes pressures of work and kids and all slowed us down, but the desire was always there and, thankfully, still is.

We also found that my vasectomy at age 31 (after all three kids) seemed to perk us both up, too, knowing that we no longer had to fear surprises!


I don't see how this is helpful. Telling someone that you're still having and enjoying sex doesn't seem to me to be helpful to someone who's not. OK, you left out the chandeliers and the cars, I must be recalling that from past posts.

Whether or not that concept is "common in some cultures", it is NOT necessarily the way ALL or even MOST mature men (not boys) think, nor need it be.

I never said that this WAS the problem. I said it was a possibility. The problem began as the poster said as soon as they went on their honeymoon. I also signed off with "Just a thought".

No, it's not about me. It's about a young man and his wife, who love one another, according to his post, but who are struggling with a big problem, which is why he posted here, seeking help and advice.

Right. And I offered a possibility. I also agreed that they should both seek counseling as I don't believe anyone on this board has the answer. Or maybe someone here does. We don't have enough information or expertise to make a definitive diagnosis.

My advice was an attempt to offer some possible things to help, and (I hope) may have been more helpful than just telling him about the "Madonna Whore Complex -- a guy thing", which seems NOT to be his problem.

But it may be HER problem. This phenomenon is not confined to men.

And how could it be post partum depression? It started as soon as they married.

If I missed your advice and not just your accounts of your good sex life, I apologize.

Andrea












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Andrea:

(Not Abby, by the way. You're no Abby, I'm afraid.)


Thank dog.

I fail to see how telling someone who is obviously very unhappy in his marriage that he and his wife enjoy sex 25 times a day, in every room in the house, flinging from the chandeliers, on the hood of the car, under the old oak tree, in the hammock, etc., etc, is in any way helpful. Vermonter seems to take every opportunity to discuss his sex life, whether it is germaine or not, and it feels to me like public masturbation. Which may be what some people want to read, but it doesn't help someone who is looking for help.

Huh???? I don't recall saying like that! I only mentioned that we, too, had had problems, and that a visit to the ob/gyn helped by changing her pills! I never said we're acting like mad animals, now or ever. Actually, I suspect we're "normal" or maybe "low normal", but happy. Is that "bad"?

Do I detect a bit of hyperbole here, perhaps due to injection of some of your own frustrations and anger, for whatever reason?


Maybe more than a 'bit' of hyperbole. I think I was responding more to a 'body of work' than to your particular post here.

Calm down, please, and try to focus on the poster's concerns.

I offered a possible explanation, and it still stands. Whether you agree with it or not.

Andrea
not Abby, YAY!

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Router:

I'm posting this via e-mail as well as the board. I'm a psychologist working with many similar stories. Please for both of you, seek a good marriage counselor / psychologist.

Unless you are going to be Ok with things as they are & even less sexuality over time, it will only be to everyones advantage to get some help to find out what is the underlying concerns that your wife may have & not verbally be in touch with.

Your own sanity is important as well.

Often the most loving thing we can do is find out what the glitch is & find solutions to.

In any event, good fortune to you all on this.

Really.
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RV: (Not Abby, by the way. You're no Abby, I'm afraid.)

C: Thank dog.



Hey! There's no need to bring my dog (Abby) into this!! She didn't do anything to either of you. :)

Peace and love...
Scolly
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you've had sex 6 times in 18 months. your wife refuses to honor your request to go to counseling together. I think you have to ask yourself, is there any reason to think this is going to change?

If it was me, after all this time, I would simply tell her that the marriage is in serious risk of completely breaking down, and that it is not working for you anymore as it is, and if she thinks so little of you that she cant acknowledge a problem and go together to a neutral third party to try and work things out, that you will leave her.

There are two sides to every story and we have heard yours and not heard your wifes. But based on what I've read, i would give her an ultimatum, that being, to go to counseling together or you are gone.

she is jerking you around. you are being a bit of a wuss. you have no right to demand sex, but you do have a right to leave a relationship that your partner has no committment to.

But that is just me.


dov
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Um, I looked at your profile, because something rang a bell for me. When I did, I came across this post:
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=23158110

So let's recap: she doesn't want sex; doesn't want to talk about it; doesn't want therapy; hides debt.

You realize that while you may be married, you don't have a partner.

You said that you would never divorce. Fine. How exactly do you see the rest of your life going? If you aren't willing to talk to her, really talk to her, more than twice in a year so that she can understand how important this is for you, what are your plans? How do you see yourself spending the next 40 or 50 years?

If you are only having sex once or twice a year now, do NOT expect that it will improve without confronting the issue. Are you prepared for the next few decades as a celibate?

Without the physical intimacy, you said that you are losing the emotional connection to her as well. Are you prepared to live the next 40 to 50 years with a roommate, unable to marry happily elsewhere?

Bottom line: what is most important to you?

Amanda
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Thanks for all the replies.

I've tried going down on my wife. She doesn't seem to dig that. She's "neat" and very "clean" and I think that turns her off a bit.

Now that I think about it, when we gave in to sex before marriage (very, very wrong and I have prayed about that!) it normally was after a few drinks. It seems as if she has the drive in her, it's just repressed. When she had a drink or two, things just happened! It's hard to get a new mom to have a drink. I'd feel guilty drinking when there is our 4 month old son in the other room and frankly, my drinking days are over for the most part. So, we need to work it out some other way.

To be honest, I love sex. It's so awesome and frankly... it's fun!!! I wish she saw it that way.

I will sit down with her within the next month and have a loving talk with her.

FYI, she said to me today, "What's wrong, you've been acting funny lately." I hugged her and I said, "I just need more of this, more touch." She said, "I can do that" but she didn't really embrace me back. Awkward. We then went for a nice walk. She just seems to be hands off happy. I'm hands on happy. Hmph!

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The debt issue was taken care of. I confronted her about it. She said she was embarrassed about the whole thing and she apologized. The debt has been paid off, we've moved on and we have a budget.

To be fair, I've posed on fool.com when I've had problems with my wife, because frankly, I need advice. I don't post the great things about her only because I don't need advice about that. So, to be fair, you are getting a slanted picture of my wife.

That being said, the underpinning to our marriage, I agree is shaky if it relied on the two of us. We both have strong faith in God, and that is what makes a difficult situation one that will eventually succeed. I just need to keep asking questions, looking for answers, and confronting her and/or changing me.

I don't think I'm being a wuss. A wuss would just quit and walk out. It's tough to try to figure things out. I want it to work.

Thanks to all for your words.
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Well, he could kill her. There is that whole "til death do you part" clause in the marriage contract.
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Why do you think sex is wrong? If you think so, then she probably does too.

And just so I can be clear here. You married a woman after 8 months who only ever had sex with you when she was drunk?

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That being said, the underpinning to our marriage, I agree is shaky if it relied on the two of us. We both have strong faith in God, and that is what makes a difficult situation one that will eventually succeed. I just need to keep asking questions, looking for answers, and confronting her and/or changing me.

I don't think I'm being a wuss. A wuss would just quit and walk out. It's tough to try to figure things out. I want it to work.

Thanks to all for your words.

=============

routerx

I wish you all the luck in the world and God's blessing in trying to work out this issue.

But from the things you have written, I see NO committment on the part of your wife to work this out. She wont acknolwedge there is a problem and she refuses to honor your feelings that there is a problem, and she further demonstrates her lack of committment by refusing professional help.

It almost sounds like she doesnt give a damn whether you leave or not, since she pays no heed to you and your wishes. She has nothing at stake (she thinks), she ignores you, takes you for granted, and refuses to face reality. It might be time for you to give her something to have at stake. And that is, to let her know that if she keeps refusing to work on the problem, that you are history. She feels right now she doesnt have to address the issue, you need to raise the ante.

routerx, honestly, your marriage is somewhat on the rocks as it is, and these are the kinds of things that if ignored or left alone, tend to get worse not better.

the wuss comment came, not as an insult, but to make a strong point that you need to stop being pushed off and ignored. every human has the right to define what works in their life, that is one of the reasons God gave us free will. be a man, and any adult man or woman is allowed to make demands. Yes, the word is demand, people in successfull marriages are constantly making demands on each other.

Since the two of you are committed to your faith, perhaps there is an elder in your church who you can speak with. but again, if you continue to ask her to work on the problem, instead of demanding that she work on it, I believe that the sad truth is the marriage will fail.

God bless ..... Dov
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God gave us free will. be a man, and any adult man or woman is allowed to make demands. Yes, the word is demand, people in successfull marriages are constantly making demands on each other.



If you can't get your partner to be on the same page with something as basic as communication, its just not going to work. People use an impartial third party to get the communication going until the couple is able to learn those skills. She's not willing to do that work. She's also not interested in talking about sexual issues. She also cries about money issues.

You don't like to "push" things. Big cop out. Adults get results. Your child needs two adults to raise him/her to be a successful adult.

Being a GOOD parent is all about communication. You both lack that right now. The real victim of your marriage is gonna be your child if you don't demand that the two of you do better for each other. ~j

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've talked to her about this a few times and she said, "I'm just not in the mood, you need to understand a woman's needs. We don't work like men."

Actually, I can attest that healthy ones do.

I think lizmonster is right; there's probably abuse in your wife's past. Your story is extremely familiar to me. My first wife and I were sexually active before marriage. After marriage, and I mean immediately after, her interest in it dropped to practically nothing. We were quite young (21), and during the first month after the wedding she suggested that perhaps we have a dedicated "sex night" so that I could "get what I wanted". WTF? What happened to what she wanted?

I'm certain that my first wife, now my ex-wife, was abused by a family member. She would fairly often talk in her sleep, sometimes during apparent nightmares. Sometimes a dream is just a dream, but some of what she said dovetailed with what I knew about the circumstances in which she lost her virginity, and the family member in question. I also know that she had some very self-destructuve behaviors in high school; drinking to excess, one-night stands while drunk, and waking up in ditches, etc.

Whatever the reason, my ex- had some sexual appetite, but she pathologically could not initiate the contact. It had to be me who did, and moreover, it had to be something she would "give in" to. Her idea of "asking" for sex would be to say, "Well, I'm going to bed. If you want to 'do it to me' before I fall asleep, you'd better hurry."

Oh yeah, what a turn-on! :-P

Like your wife, my ex- also refused to consider counseling. She also shied away from simple intimacies, like hugging, or holding hands, or kissing. Especially in public; she was painfully embarassed by attempts to kiss her goodbye at the airport as I'd be leaving on business travel, for example.

I gather that my ex- thought sex was "dirty". Sex is not dirty. Sex is one of the simple and yet profound pleasures of our lives, especially (my opinion) when you're with someone you love. If your wife feels this way, something is wrong.

I gather that my ex- thought that sex is something "only guys think about". Bullcrap. Healthy people think about sex. If your wife feels this way, something is wrong.

I gather that my ex- thought that sex is distinct from love. I disbelieve that it works that way in a healthy relationship. Sex is one of the glues that helps keep a relationship cemented together. It's not the only glue, and probably not the strongest, but I do think it's a necessary one for most of us with normal sexual appetites. If your wife feels it's not, something is wrong.

Of course, not everyone has the same drive. But "once in the past year" is not normal. Especially since you were more active before marriage.

My advice to you is to be firm and crisp with your wife: "I need you to help yourself with this issue." This is not something you can fix, trust me. Nor likely will it just fix itself.

Be aware that if your wife's dysfunction stems from abuse, she may worry (maybe not consciously) that if people (like you) knew what had happened, they might not love her. She may be feeling unloveable, at some level. Talking about this with you may not be possible. She needs some professional help.

My ex- flat-out refused to do that. Even on the point of divorce, when I said, "Will you go to counseling with me and see if we can fix this?" her response was, "No, I think we should just spend more time together." I'd heard years of that crap, and nothing had ever changed.

My advice to you is to also decide how much you really believe in the "till death do us part" thing. I believed that way too, and as a result I put up with 20 years of a very unsatisfying relationship with a woman who was often emotionally abusive as well as cold and passionless. If your wife refuses to take an active role in her own health, then you're faced with living with the relationship as it is, or ending it. You will not be able to fix it. It's not a matter of being more helpful, or more loving, or more attractive, or more anything. You. Can't. Fix. It. Trust me on this.

--FY
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ok - only read a few of the responses....

The baby. It sounds like you stick her with the care of the child all day and evening. And I would wager at some level she is resentful. Take a night or two and babysit and send her out with her friends. Give her some time to not be burdened by the baby.

Generalization alert ****** I went to college that had a pretty hefty divinity track. Yes pretty much every single one of them thought I was going straight to hell. However, almost every single couple there - man worked, woman didn't. Very defined roles. And those predefined roles created a lot of tension.

Other hints:
Bring her flowers "just because"
Give her foot and back massages
Leave her notes
Maybe you stopped pursuing her once you got married (I was guilty of this)

Anyways, just food for thought.
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RE: And just so I can be clear here. You married a woman after 8 months who only ever had sex with you when she was drunk?

No. I married a woman that I loved after 8 months who initiated sex with me whenever she had a drink or two and lost her inhibitions. My wife doesn't get drunk, never has since I've known her.

My point was, she has it in her. It's repressed, but I think it's in her.
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Hey Router,
Saw this thread because it was on the best of - here's a couple of thoughts. 'Neat' and 'Clean' seem strange things to associate with sex and I reckon this might be part of the problem. I'm not saying that this is the case in your situation, but I was friends with a woman (platonic) who told me that ever since she was a little girl, she had a big dream of a white wedding, but the guy in this dream was kind of irrelevant - the dream was about the wedding. I asked her why she was so keen on this idea and she said that 'it would make her really happy.' I remember being quite surprised at this because it seemed kind of backwards to me - wouldn't you fall in love and then start considering the wedding stuff? Anyway, I remember thinking at the time that this woman was setting herself up for a big disappointment because she seemed to believe that getting married was going to transform her life into a fairytale and who believes in fairytales? Like I said, I'm not saying this is the problem in your case, but it's something to consider.

Last point - I don't agree with the suggestion that you should tell her 'hey, you're going to do this 3 times a week and you're going to like it.' Being ordered to enjoy something is a bizarre concept - if somebody issued a command like that to any of the women I know, their response would be some version of FU - being told what to do brings out the bolshevik in all of us, right? If your wife doesn't see this as a problem or doesn't want to resolve it, then you'll have to tell her you're not prepared to carry on like this. Good luck.
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Last point - I don't agree with the suggestion that you should tell her 'hey, you're going to do this 3 times a week and you're going to like it.' Being ordered to enjoy something is a bizarre concept - if somebody issued a command like that to

Ok, my fault for not being more clear. It wasnt coercion. It wasn't a threat or a gun held to anyone's head. It was a clear goal: 3 times a week, she joins him and she enjoys it.

Did it happen every week like that? probably not. did she just hop to it? No. Did those goals eventually come to pass? yes.

He had to adjust things too.... he spent more time taking care of the kids so she could decompress, they instituted "date nite" etc..

The important thing was they were willing to make the necessary changes to accomodate each other.

Money and sex issues are the main deal breakers for couples. ~j
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"My point was, she has it in her. It's repressed, but I think it's in her."

---------

Ok, there have been enough words & opinions given. Your statement here is exactly where I, if you two were in tretment with me I would begin.

I see so many red flag intications of neurosis in your postings that it simply would be a dis-service on your part to NOT insist on getting interventional help.

I do sense that a behavioral / cognitive psychologist might best be able to get at this without messing around. I have indeed seen what you are describing in your partners behavior & it is a matter of her finding safe space in the talk therapy environment. She may be displaying symptome of bi-polar as well & pharmacology in combination will often do the trick.

Brain chemistry disruptions are best dealt with thusly.

Please, please make some calls today. Take this upon yourself. You BOTH will never regret haveing done so.

Depression is way more prevelant in our culture than people know, is undertreated, & IS so easily treated over time.




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She may be displaying symptome of bi-polar as well & pharmacology in combination will often do the trick.

Brain chemistry disruptions are best dealt with thusly.


joseph,

How does this fit with the fact that her interest in sex changed as of the honeymoon?

I ask this out of genuine interest, really.

Andrea

PS - I do realize, though, that there are a lot of things that we cannot know from the information we have been given.
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She just seems to be hands off happy

When I was breastfeeding, the oxytocin that is produced was strong enough that I didn't "crave" skin to skin with Mr.85. Plus, I had skin to skin with the babies.

Truly, my drive was diminished while the babies were young. (It did recover though)

Hormones bounce around for 6 months or longer after the birth of a child--give her some leeway for that.

Now is a good time to talk about it though, because it does sound like she loves you.


85
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"How does this fit with the fact that her interest in sex changed as of the honeymoon?"

-----

Well, we only know part of the picture from what has been revealed. There could be any number of underlying issues that may have not been in the forefront during the "honeynoon" period, if indeed this is a case of bipolar disorder it can manifest in its phases differently at different stages of life.

It really is impossible to be definitive & thusly it appears that interventional care for developing a proper diagnosis is the best first step. It often helps the patient to form some positive feelings as they begin to approach healing.

It may be something in her past as was surmized, but only by seeking a diagnosis will anyone truely know where to go with this.

The same for all of us whatever we encounter.

If this does prove to be depression as an underlying cause, the SSRI class of Rx can be very effective. There are newer generation drugs coming on line now which seem to be pretty good & the added bonus of maybe less weight gain that was happening with certain drugs.






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<<Money and sex issues are the main deal breakers for couples.>>

I'd agree with that, closely followed by in-laws, parenting and job issues, VERY closely followed by...


I was married at 7PM on a Tuesday in May at a chapel in Las Vegas. We immediately went out for martinis, a great meal then back to our hotel for some dancing. Sometime in the wee hours, we made it back to our suite.

My husband's first words when we got to bed "Ok, now what are the PIN numbers?!"

It was a joke people, pace yourselves :)

MP

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My point was, she has it in her. It's repressed, but I think it's in her.



Since you described your wife as very religious, it is quite possible that this is the result of the tendency of a lot of US Christians to see sex as "bad", "evil", "dirty" (even if they never say that outright). The result of an upbringing which features this message are adults with a very conflicted relationship with sexuality.
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There are passages from the Bible that are quite erotic and celebrate sexuality.

Only humankind could twist sex into something bad in an effort to keep people in line with the church.


MP
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When I was breastfeeding, the oxytocin that is produced was strong enough that I didn't "crave" skin to skin with Mr.85. Plus, I had skin to skin with the babies.

Truly, my drive was diminished while the babies were young. (It did recover though)


I agree! A person with perfectly normal libido can be less interested in sex when there is a baby clinging to them all day.

I know when my babies were very young, all I wanted at the end of the day was an hour of QUIET reading with NO physical contact of ANY kind. It was nothing personal--as an introvert, I guess, I just couldn't take any more physical or personal contact after a certain point. ME time was much more important to me than sex.

I mean, there could be other issues there, for sure. It is strange that her interest diminished before she was even pregnant. But that does not exclude the possibility that she's just really drained right now and needs some space. No matter how helpful you are, SHE is still the person who has undergone tremendous physical demands over the last year (and is still undergoing them as a nursing mother, presumably.)

Whatever the other problems are, I think you had better accept the fact that now is not the best time to get your sex life rolling again and you're just going to have to be patient.

Try and put any discussions you have in the context of "I know you're really tired right now, baby, but when you are feeling more together, what could I do to help you be more interested in sex?"

DEFINITELY do not say anything remotely resembling: "I need sex three times a week, now how are we going to get there?" Quite frankly, I imagine her answer would be to hand you some Vaseline and tell you to go for it. One of my new-mother friends quite literally did this when her DH was bugging her.

Which reminds me of one of the sayings that went around my mothers' group when my son was a baby: whining is not sexy!

Anyway, whatever her circumstances, I think it's going to take a while for you to get your sex life back where you want it to be. Ask any parent!

bookaholic
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i agree fully with Foolyap.

i had the same experience with my american partner as Foolyap had with his ex. In fact, my partner's aunt, who is a psychologist, strongly believes that my partner has Borderline personality disorder.

In the initial stages of our relationship, sex was actually pretty good. But then marriage came into the picture, but i felt that she was psychologically too unstable to take that step. Furthermore, when i observe how many mariages fail and how many are involved in a destructive marriage, i have no inclination to marry anytime soon.

My thought is simple: if people love each other, they stay together...if they don't, then they just separate.

For several years I tried to explain her the importance of sex in a couple....

Anyway, after 3 years of living together, I went living on my own. Today, I'm not inclined to start a new relationship as I have been too much exhausted by that last one.

I do have sex occasionally and sometimes with prostitutes. it's not ideal, but living without sex is just unhealth in my opinion.

alexander
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I think you've received some good thoughts here, most importantly from Joseph, find a good counselor and get help for both of you.

I wanted to touch on this:

I'm becoming apathetic towards her. I'm worried about that.

This is a tough one. You two are fairly newly married, so I think it's even harder to hang in there over an issue like this. I've been struggling with not becoming too apathetic since I've been dealing with a nearly sexless marriage for the past 8 of my 22yr marriage. It doesn't get easier if you've been married longer, but I think I've been more willing to stick it out because we've been committed so long and our lives are so intertwined (22yrs, 2 kids, house, etc).

Now my situation is totally different, but I wanted you to know that I do understand the feeling, the loss of intimacy. It's hard. I've moved from crazy in love, to comfortable married love, to "We work well together, and we're parenting partners, but more like housemates who share the same bed".

Hang in there, it doesn't have to be that way. Seek counseling for your own sake, and hopefully, your wife will be willing to see the counselor so you can work it out.

I also agree with Liz and FY, that she may have issues with sexual abuse in her past that she needs to work out. It's hard to overcome those early experiences. It can be done however. I stand in testimony that you can deal with it.

Good luck and find a good counselor,
Always ;-)
Hunzi
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When I was breastfeeding, the oxytocin that is produced was strong enough that I didn't "crave" skin to skin with Mr.85. Plus, I had skin to skin with the babies.

Truly, my drive was diminished while the babies were young. (It did recover though)

Hormones bounce around for 6 months or longer after the birth of a child--give her some leeway for that.

Now is a good time to talk about it though, because it does sound like she loves you.


I agree the fact that most of their married life has been with her either pregnant or now with a new baby is probably a big part of the whole issue.

With my first, DH and I were all over each other right away. I enjoyed sex both during and after pregnancy. But with my second, things were good during pregnancy, but afterwards I was exhausted. I was nursing her (and she was a very demanding, fussy baby) and dealing with a 5yr old with ADD. She was very clingy and we nicknamed her the "Velcro Baby" because she really wasn't happy unless she was being held mostly by Mommy. By the time DH got home from work each day, the last time I wanted was for another person to touch me. I needed a break. I don't think it changed until LilMiss was done breastfeeding and finally sleeping through the nights, so pretty much that first year, I wasn't all that interested in sex. It did get better though.

Hang in there.
Always ;-)
Hunzi

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Actually, I can attest that healthy ones do [work like men].


FY:

I have a great deal of respect for you based on past posts, and your experiences in this post are very germaine too. But the statement you started out with really bothers me.

You are not a woman, healthy or otherwise. And healthy women do NOT ALWAYS WORK LIKE MEN, regardless of whatever experiences you have suggesting they do. Not to negate your experiences, but...they are just YOUR experiences, not everyone's. (And certainly not every woman's.)

As an emotionally-healthy woman whose sexual "workings" have always been significantly off the norm (no physical drive, and no ability to achieve orgasm with or without a partner; however I can and do enjoy sex for it's intimacy aspect), I wish that you would not generalize like this. You are just perpetrating the myth that women who are "healthy" will respond in ia particular way. Sometimes they can't.

Scolly
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You are not a woman, healthy or otherwise. And healthy women do NOT ALWAYS WORK LIKE MEN, regardless of whatever experiences you have suggesting they do. Not to negate your experiences, but...they are just YOUR experiences, not everyone's. (And certainly not every woman's.)

Fair enough, it was too strong a statement on my part. May I expand on my feelings a little?

What I really dislike is the Mars/Venus sentiment that I sometimes hear expressed, that "all men like sex all the time, and women just aren't like that." I.e., that most men seek sex, and most women put up with it.

I really don't think that's true. I admittedly responded to a hot-button item from my past, because that's the kind of explicit message I often heard from my ex. I do think our sexually repressed culture still, in this day, tells women that they shouldn't want sex. The messages are clear: It's normal for a guy to want to "sow his oats", but be a woman and sleep around and you're a slut. That's an extremely unhealthy double-standard, and it probably does contribute to some of the male/female differences in sexual desire, or at least in the explicitly expressed sexual desire, in our culture.

As well, not every "Dear Abby" letter I've read about unhappy, sexless relationships were written by men. Some men have low libidos, some women have low libidos. I'm sorry to hear that you have some physical troubles in this department. Have you ever sought a medical explanation for it? It's possible it's something that could be remediated?

In any case, you at least are able to enjoy one of the delightful aspects of the act, intimacy with someone you love. For DW and I, it's as much about that as the physical release. With my ex-, it was always like a chore, the last one to be checked-off her list for that day. That's not intimate, and it's certainly not a healthy physical side for a relationship.

Does that help to clarify where I'm coming from?

--FY
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Router,

Here is my take on your issues with your wife. She has shut down from intimacy and not just since you got married - if she could only get in the mood while drinking, she was shut down before you met her. Whether stemming from abuse, religion or something else, she clearly has very negative feelings about sex.

With that in mind, I suggest that couples counseling is unlikely to be productive at this point. Whatever is going on is, I'm 90% sure, her issue, and not an issue between the two of you. Without her having insight into the source of her anger and fear, you cannot know how to help her feel better or more comfortable. If there is any way that you can convince her to see a therapist alone, that will give her a private safe place where she can hopefully confront her demons.

6
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Does that help to clarify where I'm coming from?

Yes, and I am in 100% agreement with you this time. :) Thanks for elaborating.
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Building on what you said 6, a person has to first acknowledge there is a legitimate problem and also to want to expend meaningful energy towards improving things for there to be any hope.

Some are sidetracked with the recent new baby being a logical explanation - it is a awkward time to deal with this and maybe a month or three delay with the next step is reasonable.

Like an earlier poster said, a serious discussion needs to happen sometime to make it unquestionably clear that the husband sees the status quo a legitimate crisis that is a real challenge to their future together. Period. No other feeble qualifiers allowed. She has to realize he's serious and it can't be something you put off to another year to give it more thought. After that, the next move must be hers. There are times in everybodies lives where you have to stand on your own two feet, by yourself, and deal with an unwanted situation. This isn't a "loving talk". This is a respectful and frank dialogue with facts, not fuzzy feelings and concepts.

She may be taking for granted the religious path he's following means she can get away with just about anything to avoid the embarassment of a split. Whatever the case, depression or whatever else has happened, only one of 3 outcomes seems likely: he suffers in silence indefinitely, she works on and improves the situation enough for him, or they eventually find splitsville. Even though I'm sensitive to his trust in his religion, I predict the latter (not soon and probably for other official reasons). The poor communication here in both directions is why.

I do disagree with the comment that "I don't think I'm being a wuss. A wuss would just quit and walk out." On the contrary, a wuss would just take whatever is dished his way with at most a feeble protest - which is what I see here.

Good luck sir, you do have a tough road ahead. If its any comfort, many have traveled down this path before and there is no single right answer.
PJ
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That being said, the underpinning to our marriage, I agree is shaky if it relied on the two of us. We both have strong faith in God, and that is what makes a difficult situation one that will eventually succeed.

With all due respect (and i really, really mean that), faith in God does not guarantee marital success. I say that as one who himself has faith in God.

Surely you know that the divorce rate among professed Christians is no lower than among the general population. There are atheists who have long happy marriages, and there are many Christians who either divorce or painfully exist in horrible marriages because they were taught divorce wasn't an option.

Please don't romanticize the power of religious faith in a marriage. It can be an important building block in a relationship. You have no guarantee that it will be. Ultimately, the health of a marriage rests upon the committment of each person in making it work.

It sounds like your wife's refusal to have sex is growing into a major wall between the two of you. She can either agree to go to counseling to work through whatever issues she has, or eventually the marriage must end.

Best wishes.
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I'd feel guilty drinking when there is our 4 month old son in the other room and frankly, my drinking days are over for the most part. So, we need to work it out some other way.

Now monks have one up on you. They at least get to drink.

CiB
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I watch the baby from 6 am - 1 pm every day. I then go to classes, I then go to my fulltime job until midnight.
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It seems as if she has the drive in her, it's just repressed. When she had a drink or two, things just happened! It's hard to get a new mom to have a drink. I'd feel guilty drinking when there is our 4 month old son in the other room and frankly, my drinking days are over for the most part.

SHE's repressed?!?! Dude, you are feeling guilty having a beer in the same house as your KID?!?! You do realize that it is ONLY Americans that seem to have an issue with kids being around alcohol...and we have the highest incidence of teen alcoholism. It's not a coincidence.

Your 4yr old will not turn into a stone cold killer because you have a beer occasionally. The only physical reasons the two of you shouldn't have a glass or two of wine with dinner occasionally would be previous addictions or allergies. The body actually has an alcohol processing system...a natural part of us to deal with it. And the positive effects on blood pressure and heart disease have been proven over and over.

Now think about this statement you made...when we gave in to sex before marriage (very, very wrong and I have prayed about that!)

When is sex right then? I mean if it was wrong before...and I am assuming you also believe that sex is meant for procreation...then why would it be any better now? If she doesn't want babies...and ya'lls religion teaches that sex is for making a family...then why would she want any more of that.
Do either of you use birth control? I'll bet not...and have the two of you seriously talked about more kids?

If you think your only problem is lack of sex...you are probably missing a million other things. The more I read this thread, the more I think the two of you are so wrapped up in your own little perceptions that you'll never actually see each other. I mean the two of you only knew each other for 8 months before committing the ultimate relationship move...do you ever wonder if maybe she is regretting that? You never even made it out of the lust (ooo...scary word) stage of a relationship. I've dated people for over two years and never married, even though we had moved into the love stage.

My prediction...based only on this thread...you two will never get past this. To you it is just sex...if she would just give it up you'd be happy. You claim to have 'tried' other things not sexual...but believe me she sees right through you. The only reason you would offer her a night out for dinner...is because you hope to get some. You can't even get to the stage of just hanging out...without thinking sex.

Gee...I wonder if that is the same correlation as the drinking alcoholism thing....hmmmm....

Buffy

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We both have strong faith in God

How about a strong faith in each other? Why would you look outside your house for answers...when the people that will solve this are you and her?

Buffy
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OCD: 4 month old
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I want to thank you all for your input. Here is what I plan to do (and here are some updates).

On Saturday I approached her and hugged her. I decided to just start being more intimate with her on a "smaller scale". Hugs, telling her I love her, writing her a love note.

Sunday were were walking to a restaurant and she walked up to me and started holding my hand. While in the restaurant she hugged me while we waited for dinner. So, I think by taking the lead and just showing her my love in small ways, it may have a positive response. I'm just glad to see her open up a bit.

I will take the advice that now (just after pregnancy) is not the time to push this. I will wait to address this once the baby sleeps the whole night through, which should be in about 2 months. That way I know she's getting her rest. She's taking yoga now and just starting to run a bit, so in two months, I imagine she'll be almost 100%. I do want to emphasize (some people have missed this) that I take the baby for 6 hours a day, the baby sleeps 12 hours a day (with 2-10 minute nighttime feedings), that means she has the baby for 6 hours a day. So, it's not like she's being overwhelmed with the baby. I would be the first to point this out if I felt she was.

Finally, I'm not going to demand or say, "I have to have sex 3 times a week". I WANT sex 2-3 times a week, and I think it's important for us to have sex often, but if I felt for a moment she was having sex against her will, that would simply be a major turnoff and I'd feel like a monster. I know, I know, some may disagree with me on this decision but unless she wants to have sex, I don't want it. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem to be addressed. If within the next two months she does not want to have sex at least 1-2 times a week (I expect this to be the case based upon the past), I'm going to push strongly for counseling of some sort, because something is wrong as pointed out by many of you for various reasons. We'll address why it is she's just not into it and hasn't been during our marriage.

Thanks again. I'll let you know how it goes in a few months and I'll update the board.
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. . . I decided to just start being more intimate with her on a "smaller scale". . . . So, I think by taking the lead and just showing her my love in small ways, it may have a positive response. . . .

Bravo! I cannot recommend this approach more.


. . . I'm going to push strongly for counseling of some sort, because something is wrong . . . ."

I would strongly recommend not using the term "wrong" in your discussions. You have certain desires, wants, expectations, needs, etc. You want your partner to discuss those issues. And you want your partner to discuss her issues. Give and take.

Your "smaller scale" approach may just be the ticket to opening that door to discussion; or at least unlocking it.

I also recommend that you do express yourself sooner rather than later and not let your issues boil. But, balance that with a care towards her openness to do.

Anecdote: It took me a year post-partum before I felt anything close to normal. During that time, especially the first six months, daughter's father got his wires crossed and did not communicate properly or effectively. I cannot imagine the outcome being much worse than it was.
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Buffy.

I posted for advice knowing full well that not everyone would agree with how I live my life. 99% of the responders simply gave me great advice or if they disagreed with me, they did so in a productive way.

Drinking isn't a big deal to me anymore and yes, I don't like having more than a beer with a kid in the house. That's REALLY not a big deal. I'm not setting public policy. You won't be affected by my decision ;)

Take care.
~David

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Yes, Routerx, you are doing everything you can; so do not beat yourself up.
Hopefully, your day is coming....I hope so...you deserve it!

UncleG
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Your 4yr old will not turn into a stone cold killer because you have a beer occasionally.

Um - is there not enough drama on TV for ya? :-)


The only physical reasons the two of you shouldn't have a glass or two of wine with dinner occasionally would be previous addictions or allergies.

There are many valid non-physical reasons to avoid drinking; and there is always the risk, for some, of inheriting the tendency to alcoholism.

Regardless of the OP's reason for giving up drinking - who are you to judge his reasons?? Obviously you have different beliefs on the subject, but he didn't exactly post for opinions on this. And you don't seem to be volunteering yours in a spirit of helpfulness.

I began drinking a bit later than most -- I was 23 -- because that's when I felt ready to do so, confident that it was my own decision and not one influenced by peer pressure. I wasn't one to be judgemental of friends who began drinking earlier; but I was rarely afforded the same respect by them, and I found that a bit annoying and hypocritical. As a rational person, I didn't need anyone's blessing to drink or not to drink - and neither does OP.


When is sex right then? I mean if it was wrong before...and I am assuming you also believe that sex is meant for procreation...then why would it be any better now? ... Do either of you use birth control? I'll bet not...and have the two of you seriously talked about more kids?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that OP believes that sex within marriage is a good thing, and that sex outside of marriage is a sin. This is a pretty common belief in many Christian circles.

Some Christians believe that sex is meant for procreation only...but relatively few. OP is pretty clearly not in that group.


I mean the two of you only knew each other for 8 months before committing the ultimate relationship move...do you ever wonder if maybe she is regretting that? You never even made it out of the lust (ooo...scary word) stage of a relationship. I've dated people for over two years and never married, even though we had moved into the love stage.

You seem unusually hostile and judgemental of the OP. Did he say anything that warranted this (I can't find anything), or do you just have unresolved personal issues with Christianity?

According to my reading of the OP's posts, he has been very clear (clearer than your statements would suggest) on his beliefs, as they impact his situation ... but he has not imposed the same beliefs on others. So he seems to be more respectful of varying points of view than you have been.


My prediction...based only on this thread...you two will never get past this.

Happily for him, your prediction means nothing.


The only reason you would offer her a night out for dinner...is because you hope to get some. You can't even get to the stage of just hanging out...without thinking sex.

Your hostility aside, there is a risk that she will interpret it that way. Only he can know for sure whether his motivations are broader than that.

This post is not like you, Buffy. You usually give pretty good feedback, and are much kinder about it.

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I will take the advice that now (just after pregnancy) is not the time to push this. I will wait to address this once the baby sleeps the whole night through, which should be in about 2 months.

Not to be a wet blanket or anything, but our 22 month old only recently started sleeping through the night, and even then, is still not consistently doing it.

--FY
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I will wait to address this once the baby sleeps the whole night through, which should be in about 2 months.

This really is your first kid, isn't it?
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Hey scolly,

Um - is there not enough drama on TV for ya? :-) Must be dense this morning...don't get this. But, as to the rest of my response...that seems to have rubbed some people as unhelpful...

First, anything I say is completely arm chair psychology...and you get what you pay for on internet.

Now....it seems to me that we have an issue that is bigger than sex. Reading between the lines...of what little is here...we start to think that no sex is a symptom...not the problem.

OP's posts seem to obsess on the sex...and not the relationship. What else is there...what do they do...why are they together...what are the signs of love... All the posts seem to be concerned with is 'How do I get some?', 'How long till I get some?', 'What do I have to do to get some?', I used to get some, now I don't what's wrong with her?'

So that is one thing I wanted to point out...that maybe we are looking at the wrong thing. The first thing in the post I responded to that struck me was the word 'Guilt' over drinking. I couldn't care less if people drink or don't drink...not my issue. But GUILT? (Maybe I misstated my premise on that line of though in my post.)

The Guilt thing is repeated in the desire to pray about the sex before marriage...to me that implies the OP felt guilty about it... (it was bad).. He also said in an early post he felt like cheating when he took care of himself...more guilt.
So here we have a whole different can of worms that needs to be looked at. Where else is there guilt? What does she feel guilty about? What is he making her feel guilty about?
Believe me...as an ex-catholic...I know how guilt goes around.
(And that is just a suggestion of places to start...)

As for this part...OP is pretty clearly not in that group. And the lady? What about her? I have met women that continue to feel sex is bad and dirty even after marriage. Look at the oral sex issue he mentioned as possibly a sign...maybe she is one of those people. But the OP doesn't ever seem to want to address this...just his desire to have sex...soon.

(Yes I know there was another thread, and yes I read it, but still, rejecting oral sex can be a sign of rejecting all sex regardless.)



Also scolly, let's talk about this bit too...
--------------------------
I mean the two of you only knew each other for 8 months before committing the ultimate relationship move...do you ever wonder if maybe she is regretting that? You never even made it out of the lust (ooo...scary word) stage of a relationship. I've dated people for over two years and never married, even though we had moved into the love stage.
=====================
You seem unusually hostile and judgmental of the OP. Did he say anything that warranted this (I can't find anything), or do you just have unresolved personal issues with Christianity?
---------------------------

What was judgmental in the part you copied? He said they got married after 8 months. Do you really think people can know each other in 8 months? Shoot, in that time a couple still hasn't even had a fight, or the first break up. I know I've still been in the puppy dog lust stage of a relationship by 8 months.
When you brain is still in that stage...you are not seeing the person...you are still seeing your projections/assumptions of that person. This is all pretty generic psychology as far as relationships. Not sure how that was hostile or judgmental. (Ok....maybe my slight at the use of the word lust was judgmental...but the idea is not.)

Secondly, what is this about unresolved issues with christianity? Name one thing I have said that attacks his faith? I asked why he would look outside his house...(pretty sure the bible tells people to solve their own issues)...I asked about faith in each other...(isn't a man and woman supposed to be the strongest unit around according to christianity?) Are they hard questions? YES. But answering them does not mean anyone has to change their religion.

As for his 'imposing' his beliefs on us here at the board, you are right, he hasn't. And I have never said he was. But, I do think some of the posts imply to me that his faith is being used as a shield to avoid dealing with his wife. Others have also suggested it could be a barrier with the amount of time he has to dedicate to it. There can be room for both faith and relationship in a marriage...seen it done...but there doesn't seem to be a balance of 'relationship' in the posts.

Happily for him, your prediction means nothing.
Completely true. The reason I made it was more for shock value. Do you truly believe that anything has changed from OP's first post to the last one? The plan is exactly the same as before...
1) Wait a bit
2) Try again
3) Suggest counseling
How is that ANY different from what was said in the first couple of posts? He's ultimate goal is still 'sex'. Not 'making love'....not 'intimacy'....not 'togetherness'. The last post still points to just wanting sex if he suffers along long enough.
Remember, it is craziness to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.
I was hoping to shock some, maybe the OP, into thinking about a relationship and giving without wanting.

Again, with the armchair psychology degree...I still think that without changing tactics and goals....this is doomed.

Please...if you want to rebut my ideas...go for it. Thanks for the chance to expound.

Buffy
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Ah, the real Buffy is back. I'm glad. :)

S: Um - is there not enough drama on TV for ya? :-)
D: Must be dense this morning...don't get this.


I only meant that you were being a little over-dramatic with the "stone cold killer" thing. No biggie, I knew you weren't being literal.


So here we have a whole different can of worms that needs to be looked at. Where else is there guilt? What does she feel guilty about? What is he making her feel guilty about?

See -- this didn't really come through when I read your post. What I read -- and probably a few others too -- was a rant on how the OP's values and beliefs were just wrong. And I didn't think that was called for, or helpful.

A rational exploration of how guilt maybe plays into the situation -- sure, I can get behind that. Although I would add that it's just a possibility, not a certainty. It's definitely something to consider, and I believe a couple of posters have suggested as much.


Not sure how that was hostile or judgmental.

A few things:
1. Your poking fun at the concept of lust was (admittedly) hostile.
2. Your unsolicited and roughly-expressed opinions on lifestyle choices he has made (not drinking, believing that premarital sex was wrong) seemed judgmental and hostile both.
3. You seemed judgmental of them getting married after such a short time. Short is relative. (And I do agree with you, fwiw, that 8 months is a pretty short time - at least, for me it would be. But I wouldn't agree that it is for everyone.)

Secondly, what is this about unresolved issues with christianity? Name one thing I have said that attacks his faith?

It was more the tone than anything...and the open mockery (<-- again, that's just how it seemed to me) of beliefs that are very common to various Christian circles. Since the OP really didn't do anything to provoke your attack, I was hypothesizing that maybe it was just a personal issue with you. It's not uncommon for people who were raised in a particular faith to grow up hostile to it's precepts. Iow, it was just a guess.

BTW, now that you have better explained yourself, I actually agree with you on almost all points. But I don't think your helpful intentions came through at all on the original post.


He's ultimate goal is still 'sex'. Not 'making love'....not 'intimacy'....not 'togetherness'.

Hm. Not actually sure I am with you on this one. Again, it's a matter of interpretation - but I get the sense that he wants all of these things. It is hard for most people to feel intimacy or togetherness without loving sex every once in awhile; and so if the concepts get jumbled up a bit, that's to be expected. I could be wrong, but I got the sense that he misses all that sex (hopefully) brings with it too.

I also got the sense that he loves his wife very much...even if they are exceptionally poor communicators. ;) As someone who is still experiencing growing pains in the communication department myself, I have some empathy for that.

Anyway, I'm glad we can have a rational discussion without getting all bent out of shape...thanks for the tone of your response.

Scolly

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You got baited & switched, Routerx!

You say on this board that you think she likes the way things are. Have you confronted her with your suspicion, or are you scared to here the answer?

Why wait 2 months, I think you need to figure out some way of getting her to counseling today; it's dangerous to have that timetable in your head "things are going to change for the better starting 2 months from now because I have a plan that starts then" when you suspect that she kinda likes things the way they are.

Seriously, if she doesn't want you physically, now or ever, you might as well find it out and decide how to deal with it.

It's very hard to admit when we make big mistakes, and it sounds like you've really done it: hastily gotten in a relatiosnhip with a woman who is beautiful on the outside, and who cemented the relationship with a wedding and a baby- let me guess is he David Jr. just to top it off? But once the ink is dry you discover that the woman is deceitful, a spendthrift, controlling, if not technically "frigid" at least on a different wavelength sexually, and you suspect she may not love you.

How much of your beliefs about keeping the marriage together are how you really feel, and how much is about keeping up appearances? I suppose you think any mistake you make looks worse because of your vocation, and a divorce is unthinkable. Just my $.02.

When you say you aren't happy within the relationship, BUT you won't cheat no matter what; you won't divorce no matter what; you won't require that she go to counseling as a condition of continuing the marriage; aren't you then responsible for handing over all the power and letting things get more and more out of balance?

She might not want you, but she does want to be married to you, you can use this to your advantage. Stop offering to never leave her! That is a gift she has not earned. Just stay quiet on the subject. She is way, way too confident that you will not leave her and so she has no motivation to change. If she stops actively getting reassurances from you, she might start to wonder. You'll know it's working if she starts to ask. If she aks you "you'll never leave me, will you?", you change the subject, even if you have to say something inane like "it's a beautiful day today, isn't it?" or "dinner is delicious" or "gas looks like it's going up, how's your car, I topped mine off already"

If she worries that she is in danger of losing her marriage, she might turn on the sex again. She still might not love you but at least you might get some sex on a semi-regular basis. It's shallow, but, it kinda sounds like she is, too (sorry to say that about the mother of your child but if the shoe fits...)


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RouterX, I guess its too late for you but read this and you'll understand why she doesn't want it anymore. In short, she used what you wanted to get what she wanted, and now that she's got what she wants, she no longer has any interest in giving you what you want.

http://nomarriage.com/
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Way to go RouterX. You sound like a nice guy. Some points though:

Your baby may not sleep through the night in two months, and even if he does, he may backslide to waking up again at night when he hits a growth spurt (Dang! I hate it when that happens!)

Please don't set quantitative standards, e.g. "If within the next two months she does not want to have sex at least 1-2 times a week." There are too many variables at work here. One ear infection, and boom, no sleep for a week. Let's not even get into tummy troubles--as soon as they start to crawl, their mouths are little petri dishes. Change four thousand gooey diapers on your 6-hour shift and let's see how sexy you feel.

Furthermore, I think that any parents of any baby/toddler/preschooler who are getting GOOD, mutually satisfying, sex regularly, even if it's just once or twice a month, are doing just great and should congratulate themselves. (It's also polite to have a shower quickie now and then just to send your DH to work with a smile, but not mandatory, LOL.) You should both be grateful for anything you get, and not fussing about how it doesn't meet your personal quota.

Did you talk to any other parents about this before you got married? Because, quite frankly, I know plenty of couples who were not getting a lot for a few years there. Don't think this doesn't matter to the wives (eventually.) It's perfectly normal, and will resolve itself in time.

Just wait until all your kids are in preschool or school and you can take a morning or a day off together now and then. Now that's sexy! Or leave Junior with Grandma for the weekend as soon as he's weaned. Also very nice (: If there's one thing you can say for kids, they definitely make you appreciate alone time of ANY kind with your spouse a lot more!

bookaholic
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Advice is appreciated. We have had sex 1 time in the past year. Ugh.

RouterX,

My suspicion would be the same as many others have voiced, past abuse. My advice whether that is the case or not is for you to first decide with 100% clarity if you are willing to live the rest of your time togethor just like you are living it now. If you aren't then, I think you are forced into an ultimatum, counseling of some sort, or part ways. I don't think there are any other options. It is an issue to you. You have addressed it with her on numerous occasions. Nothing has changed. Expect more of the same as you try to address yourself in the future. I was fortunate enough not be faced with forcing an ultimatum. DW came to me and said she wanted help. Whether it is abuse or not.... something is wrong. If she doesn't want to find out what is wrong or address it, you need to decide if you will live like this. I have linked a post outlining some random thoughts I had on our journey which did involve abuse. Many of the thoughts are applicable no matter what the issue is you may face going through with her.

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=20689810

A word of caution and practicality..... If you get her to go to therapy, don't expect it to be calm or quick. The months of therapy were some of the worst times of my life. It was a lonely time. But, my post is about hopes and getting out the other side. If I had it all to do over..... its not even a question I would. What we went through in that journey brought us togethor in ways we would not have otherwise. It required a level of caring, commitment, and understanding I didn't previously engage in. Like many things... you get back what you put into it. Good luck to you. I hope you two find solace and contentment.
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Huh...well at least know I know how you think. Somewhat harsh on that thread don't you think?
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Huh...well at least know I know how you think. Somewhat harsh on that thread don't you think?

Please point out the part that is harsh. Cupcake is getting all her needs met and the poor guy is not. Now THAT'S harsh.
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I love that site Kestral. Here's my counter to it.

Women: never marry a man who doesn't give you orgasms. You'll wind up a bitter, empty shell of a human being and he'll leave you for some younger woman who doesn't realize the long-term cost of lousy sex.

6
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I just browsed your links for a minute Kestral.

From your new favorite website, a post:

"What women want"?

Shooting


Nice stuff there Kes. What happened to you?

6, needs to be shot
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Please point out the part that is harsh. Cupcake is getting all her needs met and the poor guy is not. Now THAT'S harsh.

How do you have any idea what her needs are when her own husband doesn't know?

6
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It's outright wrong to crosspost Router's post to another website. How incredibly rude.

To top it off you ridicule other Fool posters on that site, going so far as to namecall one a b!tch, then you have the nerve to come back here and post about it? what's wrong with you?

It's no wonder you have relationship issues, pal.

Show me a bunch of guys who hate women and I'll show you a bunch of losers who've struck out their entire lives...


Bitter party of one? Your table is now available.

MP


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love that site Kestral. Here's my counter to it.

Women: never marry a man who doesn't give you orgasms. You'll wind up a bitter, empty shell of a human being and he'll leave you for some younger woman who doesn't realize the long-term cost of lousy sex.


Agree 100%. I think that for a marriage or any significant relationship to work, both parties have to bring something of value to the table.

Now as for MP, how do you know I didn't call said person a "B" here only to have Dick go on his usual Fool Alert rampage and delete anything and everything?? I've had posts deleted for far less.
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Women: never marry a man who doesn't give you orgasms.

That's just crazy talk. Female orgasms? What next, the man isn't on top?

You'll wind up a bitter, empty shell of a human being and he'll leave you for some younger woman who doesn't realize the long-term cost of lousy sex.

Let's see, at $300 a night once a week for 30 years that would give us a total long-term cost for lousy sex of $468,000.

CiB
(Lightening the mood.)
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Let's see, at $300 a night once a week for 30 years that would give us a total long-term cost for lousy sex of $468,000.

Since the man does most if not all of the work in bed, the $468,000 would be what the woman owes the man.
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<<Since the man does most if not all of the work in bed, the $468,000 would be what the woman owes the man.>>

Ok now you say the man does all the work, but then you maligned the women who won't do the work? Now just who's work is it?

I'm shaking my head because of all the sexual relationships I've been in, neither of us felt it was work. Work, who needs more of that?


MP
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<<Since the man does most if not all of the work in bed, the $468,000 would be what the woman owes the man.>>
--------
Ok now you say the man does all the work, but then you maligned the women who won't do the work? Now just who's work is it?


Hey, don't be so mean to Kestral. I'm sure that rolling on top of your woman, thrusting eight or nine times, and then rolling back off again is not only hard work, but well worth the $300 per night your woman owes you, but can't pay you because she was too lazy to go back to work after the kids were born.
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Please point out the part that is harsh. Cupcake is getting all her needs met and the poor guy is not. Now THAT'S harsh.

How do you have any idea what her needs are when her own husband doesn't know?


LOL. I was gonna ask the same thing.

Honey, yer a sinner fer screwing me out of wedlock. I pray the lord forgives us. Now, having said that in no uncrtain terms, bend over and lets have fun.

Maybe cupcake doesn't wanna have sex with the padre until he figures out which way his head is screwed on!

Before there was organized religion, sex was just sex.
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<<Hey, don't be so mean to Kestral>>

I suppose you're right. After all, it was only a forum for maligning women.

It could have been much worse, like a forum for slinging bias and complaints against Jews or blacks..now that WOULD get the heckles up.


MP
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I suppose you're right. After all, it was only a forum for maligning women.

It could have been much worse, like a forum for slinging bias and complaints against Jews or blacks..now that WOULD get the heckles up.


I know! It's really best to stick to maligning homosexuals. That's something everyone can enjoy.
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Since the man does most if not all of the work in bed, the $468,000 would be what the woman owes the man.

Peddle your wares in Vegas and let me know how much money you make.

CiB
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http://nomarriage.com/why_men_should_not_marry.html


Wow. I think I can guess who wrote that one.


RJ
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Please point out the part that is harsh

Your pissy little definition of a poster here...it was COMPLETELY a cheap shot that you knew you could get away with. It was disgusting really.

You asked.

Buffy
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I'm becoming apathetic towards her. I'm worried about that. I believe love comes from God and we share that together, intimacy is a result of love, and that's the problem, I think she doesn't love me, or if she does, she simply has no interest in sex.

To understand your dilemma you must first take a good look at yourself. Take this test:
http://www.golivewire.com/forums/viewquiz.cgi?action=919

It will answer alot of questions
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Just a reminder that YOU are


Trooper of the Day


http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=23926009&post=true


€z
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Show me a bunch of guys who hate women and I'll show guys who never grew up. They will ever stay emotionally stunted and live a life filled with negative emotion in all things.
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Congratulations! You are now married to your ex. You think no sex is punishment? Well this is a new definition of hell and you are screwed for the next 18 years. It's called child support.

jk
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Lot of useful ideas have been given to you. I agree that you need to speak with her frankly, and speak with her immediatly. If you are resenting her and losing love, you need to nip this in the bud before it gets worse. Your marriage is in jepardy! Even if you never leave her, your son risks growing up in a home with two parents who don't have a solid foundation.

While her sexual appetite is certainly an element of the problem, I wonder if she would be more receptive to the conversation if you phrase it more about how you feel that she doesn't demonstrate love and affection to you. If she does has issues (and it seems like she does if she can only enjoy sex drunk) about sex being bad, it make help her to understand that you are not just being a "nasty" "peverted" guy who only thinks with his penis. Sex is one way to show love, but you seem to question that the love is there at all. Your feelings are hurt and your ego is bruised. If this isn't important to her, then you need to know this and adjust your life accordingly.

You need to be comfortable talking with her. If she blows you off and refuses to seek help, you can not accept that. I'll admit that I have trouble relating to religious people but the bottom line is that you deserve better. So does your son.

jez
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If she blows you off

That might help.

Andrea
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I have not read all the way through, but I'd like to offer a perspective that hasn't been touched on up to the point I've read:

If she is avoiding sex (for whatever reason) then she will naturally tense up and shy away from some other forms of intimacy for fear that they will lead to the sex she is avoiding. If she feels that every time she kisses you it will lead to a confrontation about whether or not you're going to have sex, she will not only start to avoid kissing but will become tense at the mere thought of it. At that point, even kissing becomes unpleasant.

I am not offering suggestions on solving the underlying problem. I am warning you of ways this could spiral into an even worse situation.

I was glad to read that you're offering intimacy without pushing it all the way to sex. I think this is vital. Please keep that up no matter what other actions you decide to take.

Frydaze1
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Since the man does most if not all of the work in bed, the $468,000 would be what the woman owes the man.


Sounds like you've had a lot of bad experiences in bed.

I wonder what (who) they all had in common?
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<<ince the man does most if not all of the work in bed,>>

well no WONDER you are a bitter shell of a man. you've been sleeping with the wrong women!
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I have NO problem with what I offered there.

You both seem, on the other hand to have some personal problems with it. There is likely nothing I could say to either of you that would change your chosen viewpoint so I won't add to the mix any further.

Perhaps what we best can do here is to see the aspects posed, respect that all differences are valid, embrace that there are as many viewpoints as there are people, and carry on. I certainly will in my own peculiar fashion.

A splendid day to you both out there.

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Please pardon me for last post, it was meant for another board.

So if you all could just ignore it, that would be fine.

A fine day in any event to all here.
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