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Hi everyone! If I'm asking something that can be answered through old posts, please send me off in the right direction, otherwise can anyone help me with this idea?

I make candles as a hobby, and every holiday season a I sell a lot of them. Lately, my friends and my roommate's friends have been bugging me to set up a website and make a brochure. I am anticipating buying over $500 of supplies (and another $250 in UPS charges!) to get through this holiday season. I should make enough to pay that all back within one month, and then it will be pure profit. Most of it is in cash.

My coworker suggested I file a Schedule C in order to write off expenses. Supllies, mileage, etc. Right now I don't charge anyone sales tax. In order to file Sch. C, don't I have to have a business license and pay sales tax to the state? I know I could <shhh, don't tell anyone from the IRS I said this> make a big cash profit and probably just claim a loss for supplies and expenses, but is it worth the hassle of figuring out a license, sales tax, etc? I will probably make a profit of around $1000 for the holiday season, after subtracting materials.

Just floating around the idea in my head and looking for direction to do more research, so thanks in advance!
Kasha
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Hi, my wife has a soap making business which I believe is fairly similar to making candles. She actually used to make candles, but the insurance was too high, so now she just makes soap. So all of my comments are based on soap businesses, but I think they should be fairly close to a candle making business. The deciding factor for us was how much taxes we paid and the tax benefits we would get.

Charging sales tax actually didn't turn out to be that big of a hassle, especially if you sell on the internet or to out of state people, getting a license was just a trip downtown. Registering a business name can be a hassle depending on what state you live in.

I wouldn't fudge the profit/loss numbers, but do make sure you're taking advantage of any expenses you can for a business, which may be alot more than you expect. From what I've read it is generally hard to make an actual profit from a business such as this, its too easy for others to copy what you do or get very close to it, so you must be doing fairly well!

Make sure you look at the product liability responsibilities before you start a business, for our insurance company they treated candles as something very risky. It would suck to start a business and someone burns out their house with one of your candles and then sues you and you get stuck with a big settlement.
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<<I make candles as a hobby, and every holiday season a I sell a lot of them. Lately, my friends and my roommate's friends have been bugging me to set up a website and make a brochure. >>


What do you want to do with this business? There's a lot to be said for a side business that brings in income at little expense. If you want to expand it to a larger, year around business with the advertizing and overhead that goes along with it, that's fine, but that would be a huge change from the kind of operation you describe.

Presuming that you want to keep this a small scale supplenmental source of income I'd do the following:

Avoid expensive overhead like websites. If someone wants to order through a website, you don't need their business. Keep it simple.


<<My coworker suggested I file a Schedule C in order to write off expenses. Supllies, mileage, etc. Right now I don't charge anyone sales tax. In order to file Sch. C, don't I have to have a business license and pay sales tax to the state? I know I could <shhh, don't tell anyone from the IRS I said this> make a big cash profit and probably just claim a loss for supplies and expenses, but is it worth the hassle of figuring out a license, sales tax, etc? I will probably make a profit of around $1000 for the holiday season, after subtracting materials.
>>


You do need to pay taxes --- all of 'em. Plan to File a Schedule C this year, and get a business license and start filing tax returns for your state's income tax, and start charging your customers those taxes.

You can study up on this yourself if you wish, or hire someone to set up books and file returns if you need to do so. If that isn't worthwhile, quit selling stuff and give away your craft items as gifts.

Frankly, turning your hobby into a business isn't all it's cracked up to be, in my opinion. I've been busy in recent years turning my trade and business of repairing furnaces into a hobby, albeit one that earns me money and on which I pay all applicable taxes. But my main aim these days is to do only the work I am HAPPY to do, rather than maximizing my income.

So is the income you earn really worth all the hassle, or would you be happier keeping your hobby as a hobby, perhaps donating some of your work to be auctioned or raffled off byn favorite charities?



Seattle Pioneer

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Hello Kasha:

You face the same issue as many "on-the-side part-tmers"; do I do everything right or do I just do it on the side and don't tell anyone?

As usual, there is a right answer and a wrong answer & you can pretty much guess which one is which.

The right answer --- get a license (if necessary in your locale), collect the sales tax, file Federal Schedule C, etc., etc. By the way, everything the Fed's know, the states know. How do you think the state revenue agents know whose doorbell to ring for uncollected sales tax?

The wrong answer --- do it all subrosa. The risk --- being audited; remember --- sell enough candles and one of your customers probably works for the IRS. Further, if you are audited (a very low probability) your side business will be discovered (virtually a 100% guarantee) and you will be charged additional tax, plus statutory interest, plus a fraud penalty. Then the state will step in and do the same on the income side plus charge you state sales tax plus its related penalties and interest.

IMHO, you should think this one through very carefully.

TheBadger
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<<The wrong answer --- do it all subrosa. The risk --- being audited; remember --- sell enough candles and one of your customers probably works for the IRS. Further, if you are audited (a very low probability) your side business will be discovered (virtually a 100% guarantee) and you will be charged additional tax, plus statutory interest, plus a fraud penalty. Then the state will step in and do the same on the income side plus charge you state sales tax plus its related penalties and interest.

IMHO, you should think this one through very carefully.

TheBadger
>>


Entirely aside from being caught, you are advertizing the fact that you are acting dishonestly when you don't collect and pay taxes. That's undignified and a good reason not to do it by itself, for me.


Furthermore, as The Badger notes, my supposition is that those guys at the IRS and state tax offices are experts at what they do. I'm satisfied that if I came to their attention, they would slice and dice me with ease. Even with an honest effort to adhere to all the rules, I get caught making mistakes once in a while, and pay the penalties my negligence causes. But I imagine that these offices and their staffs can easily detect the difference between an honest mistake and deliberate fraud. Making mistakes nails me bad enough once in a while, but I bet they can make deliberate fraud REALLY hurt.


I just got notified that I neglected to send in my real estate tax payments for my home and rental property, and got nailed about $300 in penalties and interest for this oversight. The second half taxes are due at the end of October, and I MIGHT have noticed my oversight when I was paying that, or might have been hit up for more late penalties and high interest charges.


I've decided it just aint worth it.



Seattle Pioneer
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I have to agree with Seattle Pioneer.

I too try to do everything right; I am supposed to know what's right; & even then, I too get caught; at least once.

I was running my own firm in downtown Chicago. We had a guy come in & install 3 - 4 vending machines with cokes, snacks, etc. We had them in there for several years. I had a client who personally worked for the office of managment & budget or something or other for the Mayor's office.

About two weeks later, a "CITY REVENUE INSPECTOR" showed up & promptly informed us that we owed a $65 / month vending tax plus interest plus penalties totalling $14k and change.

My jaw hit the floor as well as a few private parts. Then, I just wrote the check.

TheBadger

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<<About two weeks later, a "CITY REVENUE INSPECTOR" showed up & promptly informed us that we owed a $65 / month vending tax plus interest plus penalties totalling $14k and change.

My jaw hit the floor as well as a few private parts. Then, I just wrote the check.

TheBadger
>>


My condolences, but I have to say I'm glad I'm not alone.



Seattle Pioneer
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Thanks to all for the insights! SP, you are correct about turning a hobby into a business, and that it's not all it's cracked up to be. Last year I saw the beginnings of that, in that I spent more time making candles than I would have, if I did not have the orders for them. It's definitely not my intention to turn this into my full-time pursuit. I actually don't mind my full-time job, and the money is just fine.

In years past, the selling of candles around holiday time has just brought in enough money for me to "support my candle habit," as I put it. I can buy more supplies and experiment with different styles that way. I also liked the idea about donating some to auctions or charities, although when I did that last year (donated 2 candles to a charity auction), I ended up with around 15 orders for ones just like those! :-)

Anyway, thank you all for the issues you've given me to think about.
Kasha
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I did that last year (donated 2 candles to a charity auction), I ended up with around 15 orders for ones just like those! :-)

Sounds like a good way to advertise!

This year be sure to donate to charity auctions being held early in the season so you'll have time to fill all the orders!

You might also put some business cards by the display of items to be auctioned off to make it easier for customers to contact you.
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<<In years past, the selling of candles around holiday time has just brought in enough money for me to "support my candle habit," as I put it. I can buy more supplies and experiment with different styles that way. I also liked the idea about donating some to auctions or charities, although when I did that last year (donated 2 candles to a charity auction), I ended up with around 15 orders for ones just like those! :-)
>>


The paperwork burdens don't have to be overwhelming for a hobby business such as you describe. Filling out a Schedule C for for income taxes isn't too burdensome if the business is simple and you keep decent records. The same for paying sales taxes (at least here in Washington State) A seasonal business might file a state sales tax return for October-December for such seasonal sales.

Keeping it simple would have a lot of virtues.

The idea of liability insurance for selling candles did set me back when one writer mentioned it. Imagine some moron suing you because they leave a lit candle under flammable materials!



Seattle Pioneer
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<<<<In years past, the selling of candles around holiday time has just brought in enough money for me to "support my candle habit," as I put it. I can buy more supplies and experiment with different styles that way. I >>


By the way, I've seen a number of cases where candles have apparently been responsible for soot staining the walls and ceilings of people's homes. Apparently some kinds of candle materials are much more likely to cause this problem.

Is that something you are familiar with, by chance?



Seattle Pioneer
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kasha:

Thanks for asking these questions.
I have many of the same ones...

Another one i have for the fellow self-employed fools is, if you are attempting to move a hobby to a side business, is there a minimum amount you should be looking to bring in $$ dollar wise before moving to file the schedule C, i.e. more than 3 grand or something?

Kasha..as far as the web goes, a lot of people have luck from what I have been seeing with Ebay and Yahoo Stores...and I know with Yahoo, it's relatively easy to set up a web site with their templates, etc.
I currently have Yahoo Small Business and like their tools alot. If you know of any budding students in the graphic arts field perhaps you may be able to barter some candles for some site graphics works too...

Good Luck :)

EBean
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I make candles as a hobby, and every holiday season a I sell a lot of them. Lately, my friends and my roommate's friends have been bugging me to set up a website and make a brochure.


A great way to test the waters is to sell on eBay. Send every one of your buyers a brochure and a limited-time coupon to encourage more purchases.

If you do decide to put up a website, I STRONGLY encourage you to visit the Webmaster's board here at TMF and get suggestions BEFORE you commit.



In order to file Sch. C, don't I have to have a business license and pay sales tax to the state?

I'm way behind on my posts and don't know what others have written in response to this question - but my answer is "No." When the IRS receives your completed Schedule C along with your 1040, they won't call your state to see if you're paying sales tax and your municipality to see if you have a business license.

ShelbyBoy
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Avoid expensive overhead like websites.

FWIW, most of my income comes from one website. Total expenses for that website are about $7 per month - and that includes the annual domain registration fee. I don't consider that expensive.



If someone wants to order through a website, you don't need their business.

???



ShelbyBoy
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Make sure you look at the product liability responsibilities before you start a business, for our insurance company they treated candles as something very risky. It would suck to start a business and someone burns out their house with one of your candles and then sues you and you get stuck with a big settlement.

The product liability concern doesn't just start if Kasha decides she will be a business. If she's selling candles, the concern is already present, regardless of whether she considers herself a business.



Registering a business name can be a hassle depending on what state you live in.

Can you explain what you mean by "Registering a business name?" Are you referring to completing the ficticious/assumed name form at your local county government?


ShelbyBoy
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Another one i have for the fellow self-employed fools is, if you are attempting to move a hobby to a side business, is there a minimum amount you should be looking to bring in $$ dollar wise before moving to file the schedule C, i.e. more than 3 grand or something?


There are accountants on the board who can provide a more professional response, but I believe Uncle Sam wants you to report all income. The hobby vs. business thing comes in when you start considering business deductions.

I don't think you avoid having to report the income because you decide you have a hobby. Here's a link to read more about Uncle Sam's line of thought - http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99239,00.html

With that aside, the difference between a hobby and a business should be about passion, life enjoyment, goals, etc. instead of the tax code.

ShelbyBoy
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A great way to test the waters is to sell on eBay.

Yes it is.

But keep in mind as you do so that before typing this message I entered the word "candle" in eBay's search window; there were 30168 items with the word "candle" in the subject line.

True, not all of them were candle auctions, but my point is that you are probably selling your candles for more than the $5.00 to $10.00 that most of the completed auctions I saw closed at. I also noted that a lot of those candle auctions ended without bids.

That may change as we approach Christmas, but I suspect you're getting more for your candles locally.

You might start putting candles on consignment in local stores so word will get out about your product (a card should go with every candle) and word of mouth can spread. By Christmas you can build up a steady stream of customers.

If you have any candles left after Christmas THEN try listing them on eBay.

I say this because eBay is a Walmart as far as readily available items go. A hundred year old candle signed by somebody famous yes! eBay is the place to sell it. But when you put your candles up at eBay you're competing against who knows, candlemakers from India?

There are no moats around readily available items at eBay. Prices are driven down by the competition. You can probably make more per candle selling locally than selling on eBay.

Just my HUMBLE opinion.

Desert (356 positive feedback points at eBay) Dave
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<<If someone wants to order through a website, you don't need their business.

???



ShelbyBoy>>


That's right. I operate a furnace repair business, and getting inquiries from thither and yon merely wastes my time.

I get my business by telephone, and have no use for the internet for that purpose.



Seattle Pioneer
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If someone wants to order through a website, you don't need their business.

----------------------------------------------------

That's right. I operate a furnace repair business, and getting inquiries from thither and yon merely wastes my time.

I get my business by telephone, and have no use for the internet for that purpose.


-----------------------------------------------------------------

I can see your point concerning a furnace repair business that is already turning down business and that only serves customers in a local area.

But the comment was made to someone selling candles. I don't understand a candle seller turning away people who want to purchase via a website. Websites are ideal for putting low cost items such as candles in front of millions of potential customers.

ShelbyBoy
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<<I can see your point concerning a furnace repair business that is already turning down business and that only serves customers in a local area.

But the comment was made to someone selling candles. I don't understand a candle seller turning away people who want to purchase via a website. Websites are ideal for putting low cost items such as candles in front of millions of potential customers.

ShelbyBoy


>>


We can agree that different types of business need different kinds of marketing plans.


Whether the internet is the right place to sell high quality, decorative candles is an interesting question. I'd suppose that the BEST place would be an upscale market place where such consumers would be able to use all their senses to experience a line of candles.

The internet necessarily sharply restricts the amount of sensory information that can be communicated. And I suspect it's easier to talk about internet exposure getting millions of eyeballs than actually getting those eyeballs and getting them to pay attention.

Better selling candles than furnace repairs, though!



Seattle Pioneer
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Whether the internet is the right place to sell high quality, decorative candles is an interesting question.


A lot of people seem to have answered the question -
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=candles&btnG=Google+Search


Personally, I like the candles from http://www.southerncandles.com


ShelbyBoy
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Another one i have for the fellow self-employed fools is, if you are attempting to move a hobby to a side business, is there a minimum amount you should be looking to bring in $$ dollar wise before moving to file the schedule C, i.e. more than 3 grand or something?

As ShelbyBoy pointed out, the IRS wants you to report your income whenever you earn it, however you earn it. So, if you are already selling any products of your hobby, you should already be filing Schedule C.

If you're wanting to move that hobby into a business, the number you should be checking out -- rather than dollars of income -- is years of loss before you show a profit. If you fail that test, the IRS will say, sorry Bud, this is a hobby not a business ... and disallow your deductions, at least up to the break-even point. If you fall on that sword, prepare for accompanying penalties and interest.

At one time we had to show a profit within 7 years. Then another time, it was something like 3 years out of the first 5. They keep changing it to crack down cuz this area has suffered a lot of abuse in the past, along with home office deductions, and it is a little difficult to play fair for legitimate businesses while cracking down on the hobby abusers. I have not yet found the current year's info on the IRS web site. Maybe somebody on Tax Strategies knows:
http://boards.fool.com/Messages.asp?bid=100155

Of course, this is moot if you're already turning a profit. If you are currently running a loss and are uncomfortable with being profitable within the IRS's timeline, you can delay declaring it a "business" for another year.

ILC
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When the IRS receives your completed Schedule C along with your 1040, they won't call your state to see if you're paying sales tax and your municipality to see if you have a business license.

This much is true: you don't need the local licenses to file the Schedule C. However, the IRS passes along return info to the various states. For piggyback states like AZ, this is (err, was, don't know if it's changed) the whole danged return. For others, it might still be total income only, although I doubt it. So, your state might find out that you've been engaged in business without letting them know, and they might get a little disgruntled about that.

Be forewarned: your state might also pass along this info to your local municipality, and folks there might also get disgruntled to find out, after the fact, about your business venture.

Much better all around to follow the rules. Besides, then you get to make extra deductions (for the cost of business license, etc.) on Schedule C....

(And, uh, thanks for the reminder that I'll be needing a sales tax license, too. In the past I sold services, which were not taxed by AZ, and I still need to wrap my brain around the fact that I'm about to be selling product instead.)

ILC
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Thanks to ShelbyBoy and ILC for their replies...very helpful...

It appears I have my work cut out for me, and I am in a bit of a personal accounting mess for 2003. So, I need to get to work on finding a good accountant in DC to help straighten me out.

I've been scared to launch the small business from a hobby and freely admidt to being behind on the details.

The thing I guess I should be proud of is that there is demand for my product/services - I've made custom jewelry for formal events for people (wedding parties etc.) and also custom party favors...the demand is almost higher than what I believe I could support...which is in many ways a good thing and a scary one - in terms of making me decide whether to forge ahead and launch a business as the real deal.

Many of the tools, etc. that I use I have built a supply of over the last few years.
Raw materials I pick-up wholesale, and so profitabilty though relatively small... is probably possible for this year, or next, working it out on paper / excel spreadsheet.

It's unfortunately the creativity I have and the discipline of record keeping I lack - but I am now getting a big wake up call.

Shelby had a good point in it being more about the calling to go into business for oneself than about the tax code - but in my situation (and this is the part that scares me) is that I have debt from being in school, credit card debt I'm trying to pay off, am currently making a good full-time salary as a gov't contractor...but rent and don't own property...so I guess I am just afraid of launching the business and owing more taxes somehow that I would be unable to pay...but really maybe that's just my naive-ness speaking?...and it's really fear of the unknown.


EBean

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...so I guess I am just afraid of launching the business and owing more taxes somehow that I would be unable to pay...


You just have to discipline yourself. Each month, if you make a profit during that month, you set aside money to pay the taxes that will be due.

ShelbyBoy
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<<The thing I guess I should be proud of is that there is demand for my product/services - I've made custom jewelry for formal events for people (wedding parties etc.) and also custom party favors...the demand is almost higher than what I believe I could support...which is in many ways a good thing and a scary one - in terms of making me decide whether to forge ahead and launch a business as the real deal.

Many of the tools, etc. that I use I have built a supply of over the last few years.
Raw materials I pick-up wholesale, and so profitabilty though relatively small... is probably possible for this year, or next, working it out on paper / excel spreadsheet.

It's unfortunately the creativity I have and the discipline of record keeping I lack - but I am now getting a big wake up call.
>>


The ability to keep good records is an essential skill for any small business person. The tax man requires it, and if you don't you'll never really know if your are making money!

The disciplines can be learned, and I learned them over time, and it wasn't easy. The key for me was to develope a reasonable plan for keeping records, and then to get in the habit of following that plan.

There are two elements to my plan:

1) I use Quicken to record purchases, expenses, sales and payments. That's my basic book keeping system.

2) I use hanging files to keep business reciepts and records organized. That means that all the deposit slips Quicken generates get two whole punched and put in a hanging file for deposits. Bills for insurance get paid and the bill gets two hole punched and filed in the folder for insurance. Every time, and right away! I make sure I always have the proper office supplies on hand so that I'm not tempted to procrastinate.

If you choose expense categories that are identical to those found on the IRS Schedule "C", that can make filing your taxes easier.




Seattle Pioneer
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There are two elements to my plan:

1) I use Quicken to record purchases, expenses, sales and payments. That's my basic book keeping system.

2) I use hanging files to keep business reciepts and records organized. That means that all the deposit slips Quicken generates get two whole punched and put in a hanging file for deposits. Bills for insurance get paid and the bill gets two hole punched and filed in the folder for insurance. Every time, and right away! I make sure I always have the proper office supplies on hand so that I'm not tempted to procrastinate.

If you choose expense categories that are identical to those found on the IRS Schedule "C", that can make filing your taxes easier.


I totally agree with the last comment about making your categories match Schedule C. Then all you do at tax time is print the report, and transfer the numbers over.

But I wanted to expand a little on the 2 things SP does to make recordkeeping easy. For DH's business, we also have a separate, business-use-only credit card, and we have a separate checkbook. You don't have to do it this way, but I find it much easier to separate the charges at the time they are being made than trying to reconcile the charges against the receipts and separate out personal and business expenses when I'm reviewing the bill.

And the separate checking account serves the same purpose. I pay all DH's business expenses out of that checkbook, and I deposit all his receipts into it. That way, I know exactly what he has available for the business account, and we have a quick way to know how he's doing for the year.

I also give him a 'salary' by simply transferring a set amount out of his checking account into our personal account every 2 weeks when I get paid. So whatever is left in his checkbook is truly spendable money, and he knows if he has enough there to get whatever new tools he might want.

I suggest that when starting a business, it is just easier to start out with it set up separately and getting in the habit of keeping good records.
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Thanks...I think I will look to listing items to mirror as they are in the schedule C...and I've been thinking of opening a seperate bank/checking account to help to seperate out the finances and help me to keep better records...so I thank you for your suggestions :)

EBean
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It's unfortunately the creativity I have and the discipline of record keeping I lack - but I am now getting a big wake up call.

Creativity and discipline actually go hand-in-hand rather well. A kind Fool e-mailed me recently about Bob Dylan's unpublicized business savvy. (I am approaching my near future from the other side: unleashing my pent-up creative after all these years.)

but really maybe that's just my naive-ness speaking?...and it's really fear of the unknown.

You have gotten really good advice from the others about recordkeeping. I will ditto ShelbyBoy's point about the calling to go into business for oneself being of prime importance.

Two pieces of advice served me well when I was nervous about "officially" letting some of my hobbies be businesses:
1. "The amount of crap I'm willing to tolerate is proportional to the remuneration I receive for doing so." (actually spoken to me as an early cow-orker's self-description, but I took it as advice)
2. Don't quit your day job.

Lots of folks start up hobbies, make a little money from them, and quit the steady paycheck a little too soon. My personal services biz, which eventually branched out into all kinds of stuff, started as a favor for a friend, gained momentum as a collection of hobbies, and if I had quit my day job the first couple times I considered it, I'd've been in hot water ... and I wasn't carrying debt at the time, either.

Do not be afraid. You will do well. You have found something you enjoy doing, and which others are glad to pay you money to do for them. This is a dream many have yet never follow, and you are making it your reality. Given my own new direction I recently changed my personal quote, thought you might find it of value:
When you walk to the edge of all the light you have and take that first step into the darkness of the unknown, you must believe that one of two things will happen: There will be something solid for you to stand upon or you will be taught to fly. -- P.Overton

Your experience with your craft is your solid. The beginnings of your client base are either solid or nearly so. Only parts you've been missing so far are the flight lessons you're getting from the Fool, and from wherever in your personal life you draw strength.
ILC
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Thanks for the words of encouragement ILC :)
Much appreciated,
EBean
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