I am not quite sure how to express it; but it has to do with toys. Many people who we as RE's would consider foolish (or is that Foolish) & broke have a garage/basement of toys: motorcycles, ATV's, boats, guns, radio controlled airplanes, airplanes you sit in, sports cars, skis, HD TV's, etc,. etc.

One at a time there absolutely nothing wrong with any of the above. However, this collection of toy junk is usually an expression of 10 - 20 years of experimentation & self-gratification; not an expression of need & commitment.

As an example, I do have $2000 - $3000 of ski equipment in my garage. However, my wife & I actually do ski 60 or so days per year at a serious level. 60 days of ski rentals would cost approximately $800 to $1200 per year & we keep our equipment for 8 - 12 years. Therefore, making the commitment to purchase the equipment appears wise to me. OTOH, there are no boats, planes, ATVs or horses in my garage (however, there might be a few motorcycles).

I guess my bottom line is: "Rent to experiment; only buy when you are committed to an avocation."

TheBadger

SeattlePioneer says: tips for retiring early ... Does anyone have any additional items to include?

Many people will try to pull you back to the "normal" way of looking at things. Like buy big houses, have children, nice vacations... These people may, unfortunately, include you parents, siblings, relatives, respected professors, close friends, etc. You have to go your own way and NOT LISTEN to them. It's hard, especially when the one spouting the dubious advice is a loved one. Be strong. Trust your own intuition. You know what is right for you.

arrete - important decisions are never easy, but when you look back, you'll be proud of yourself.

Further tips for retiring early:

Here are a couple more, assuming that the priority is retiring (safely) as early as practical...

Carefully analyze your post-ER spending requirements, so you don't set goals higher than they need to be to meet your lifestyle spending plans. What will it really cost you to live the way you want? It only costs $27,000 to live a $70,000 lifestyle. (See http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=13085876 for elaboration.)

Carefully analyze your post-ER income situation, so you're not working long past the point at which you could retire, just to build a 40 year income stream that really only needs to last 10 years. (In my case, SS begins in 10 years, so a portion of my retirement income will be replaced then. Discussion at http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=13071557.)

In other words, plan this project the same way you'd plan a project at work, with twin goals of earliest realistic completion and minimum acceptable budget, given known and forecasted expenses and income streams.

Dory36, happily retired since May 1, 2001

There obviously are many things that can delay an early retirement. It would seem to me that one of the most significant might be the failure of young folks to make the most of their educational opportunities, which in turn can position them to obtain reasonably satisfying and well-paying employment. Without a good educaion, it's tough to secure a good job or career. Without a good job or career, it's hard to save and invest for early retirement. It seems to me that it all starts at the beginning, as most things do. If you get a good start, you usually get to the finish line before those that didn't get such a good start.

ResNullius writes,

There obviously are many things that can delay an early retirement. It would seem to me that one of the most significant might be the failure of young folks to make the most of their educational opportunities, which in turn can position them to obtain reasonably satisfying and well-paying employment. Without a good educaion, it's tough to secure a good job or career. Without a good job or career, it's hard to save and invest for early retirement. It seems to me that it all starts at the beginning, as most things do. If you get a good start, you usually get to the finish line before those that didn't get such a good start.

Many folks have also delayed their retirement because of the educational opportunties they pursued. While big-time educators continue to extoll the virtues of a broad liberal-arts education, the highest 4-year degree salaries go to engineering, computer science and accounting graduates. Sure there a few liberal arts grads that do well (New York Knicks star Patrick Ewing was an Art History major, but he doesn't earn his living as a museum docent.) The vast majority of liberal arts grads trail the technical geeks in lifetime earnings.

Also the choice of college is important. While a degree from Harvard or Stanford might be worth the tuition, many second-tier private colleges cost $25,000 per year and have academic reputations inferior to a $10,000 per year state university. A student who saved and invested that $15,000 per year difference would have a $500,000 nest egg by age 45.

intercst

It would seem to me that one of the most significant might be the failure of young folks to make the most of their educational opportunities, which in turn can position them to obtain reasonably satisfying and well-paying employment.

Educational opportunity does not necessarily mean college. One problem today is that not enough respect is given to the specialized skills that are essential to making the world turn--carpenters, plumbers, electricians, machinists, mechanics, and the list goes on and on. In many instances, folks employed in these fields earn far more than folks with college degrees. They frequently also enjoy a higher level of satisfaction with their jobs. It's a true shame that our educational and political systems places such little value on the skilled trades. College is not for everyone, but you wouldn't know it by listening to educators or politicians. End of rant.

Intercst, you may well be right in saying that one has a better chance of ER if one becomes an engineer, but let's not forget the quality and richness of life. I will always value my very good liberal arts education because it has greatly contributed to my QUALITY of life. During my working life AND during my early retirement, my education - a grounding in art, literature, music, history, and a variety of other liberal arts - has enriched and is enriching my life. With tongue in cheek, I compare that to playing with slide rule! (grin).

ResNullis wrote:
Educational opportunity does not necessarily mean college. One problem today is that not enough respect is given to the specialized skills that are essential to making the world turn--carpenters, plumbers, electricians, machinists, mechanics, and the list goes on and on. In many instances, folks employed in these fields earn far more than folks with college degrees. They frequently also enjoy a higher level of satisfaction with their jobs. It's a true shame that our educational and political systems places such little value on the skilled trades. College is not for everyone, but you wouldn't know it by listening to educators or politicians.

My youngest wants to be a carpenter. We've already discussed the community college's training program. I'm not sure what other ways there are to get those skills.

I don't know if I'm going to let her skip the "college prep" classes, though. She's brilliant but tiny. Might be a good idea to keep her options open.

Of course, I think one of the big advantages of college is that it gives the kids someplace to move to when they graduate from high school. (I haven't quite mastered the "This is MY HOUSE and while you live in MY HOUSE, you'll do what I SAY" that my parents used to make me eager to leave.)

Vickifool

Dory36, happily retired since May 1, 2001

Congrats on being retired for a bit more than -2 months !!! :-)

My youngest wants to be a carpenter. We've already discussed the community college's training program. I'm not sure what other ways there are to get those skills.

In addition to a formal training program, one of the best things to do would be to find the "best" local carpenter and go to work for that carpenter for a few years. (starting at no salary if necessary)

I don't know if I'm going to let her skip the "college prep" classes, though. She's brilliant but tiny. Might be a good idea to keep her options open.

I agree, always good to have options in case her first choice doesn't work out as planned.

Also go to the library and get her a bunch of Jonathan Kellerman's early books to read - the main character's girlfriend, Robin, is a very successful carpenter (if I remember correctly, also small in stature) with a thriving business in a particular niche product. (I won't spoil it for you :-) I bet she can identify with her.

Hey, I agree with the quality of life issues that you brought up, but speaking as an engineer/lawyer who almost went to music school, it's probably easier to be an engineer who plays music rather than a musician trying to be an engineer. *grin*

We're not all uni-dimensional technowonks, contrary to popular opinion. ;-)

CK
(who still loves studying art, architecture, food history, literature, cooking, music, and philosophy, even though she never took a college class in any of them)

• If you're married, stay that way.
• If you're not married, stay that way.
• If you're childless, stay that way. See the Fool board on choosing not to have children.
• If you have children, make them become independent, self-supporting adults and plan on delaying your FIRE.
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• Plan your retirement expecting no inheritance.
• Inherit anyway.
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Great Post/Great Advice!

bc

I don't know if I'm going to let her skip the "college prep" classes, though. She's brilliant but tiny. Might be a good idea to keep her options open.

Of course, I think one of the big advantages of college is that it gives the kids someplace to move to when they graduate from high school. (I haven't quite mastered the "This is MY HOUSE and while you live in MY HOUSE, you'll do what I SAY" that my parents used to make me eager to leave.)

It wouldn't help if she can manage the college prep classes...tell her she will need the math, and the science will help her too!

If she wants to get into construction, aside from 'carpentry', there are a lot of other related jobs, and they pay more - job estimator, layout work, project management, etc.....if she has the math/business background, she might be able to move into that.

Perhaps she should look to a firm that does more than 'just carpentry' - ie, major job construction, a job were she can graduate up the ladder, etc......

or she might find she likes electrical work, hvac, or some other related field of home or business construction...having the math sure helps!.....gives her a couple steps up the ladder.....


Not that contruction people don't do well...but some of the work is highly seasonal..... and outdoors...which might be fine for 5 or 10 years, but then you might like to be inside....

>> Educational opportunity does not necessarily mean college...It's a true shame that our educational and political systems places such little value on the skilled trades. College is not for everyone, but you wouldn't know it by listening to educators or politicians. <<

Preach on.

It's pretty pathetic how the assumption is that almost every child born today MUST aspire -- MUST be pushed -- to go to college.

Not every person has the desire or aptitude for that, and all the rhetoric does is perpetuate the idea that if you don't get a degree, you're worthless and unemployable, doomed to a dead-end, low-paying job for life. And this starts to become a self-fulfilling prophecy as people come to believe it in increasing numbers.

As it pervades, it gets steadily worse. It's not even enough to go to college now -- you have to go the the *right* college or graduate school. My dad became a computer programmer with a high school diploma in the 1960s, and he was a darned good one. No way in Hell you see that much today.

And these days, it's so bad that some parents push 2- and 3-year-old kids into college-prep pre-schools. My God, when do these kids get to be *kids*??

Surely there are many good reasons to go to college -- getting a good job is *one* reason, but it's not the end-all-be-all. There are also good reasons NOT to go to college for some people, except that society makes them feel like worthless slackers performing "crap work" that "no one" wants.

And as for job satisfaction, I agree completely. Almost all of the people I know who regret their career choice are college graduates. They were probably pushed into the big money and never gave much thought to whether they'd actually enjoy that line of work.

#29

Also the choice of college is important. While a degree from Harvard or Stanford might be worth the tuition, many second-tier private colleges cost $25,000 per year and have academic reputations inferior to a $10,000 per year state university. A student who saved and invested that $15,000 per year difference would have a $500,000 nest egg by age 45.

Do not let the price tag fool you ... most students (and/or their parents) would pay the same for a private college as they would pay for a public university. In both cases, the student's family pays based on their ability to pay and not on the total cost of the education. For public universities the taxpayers take up the slack while at private colleges the endowment fills the gap. These days public universities and private colleges both usually expect students to take out student loans, do work study and take summer jobs to defray the cost.

Prometheuss

ResNullius writes, "the failure of young folks to make the most of their educational opportunities, which in turn can position them to obtain reasonably satisfying and well-paying employment"

If only Bill Gates had finished college, just imagine what he could have acheived<g>. Seriously though, while there is much to agree with in your post...an education being a good thing for the individual and society..., I am of the opinion that the US school system spends too much time selling education by telling you a good one will get you a comfy job workin' fo' Mr. Charley. Such attitudes certainly assure a burgeoning work force, but do little to encourage entrepreneurship.

The book "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" (no groans please<g>) makes that point very well indeed...in fact it is the only real point of that book. Have you noticed that most small businesses are run by people who's parents were business owners? Its in the poddy training.

Mark

Educational opportunity does not necessarily mean college. One problem today is that not enough respect is given to the specialized skills that are essential to making the world turn--carpenters, plumbers, electricians, machinists, mechanics, and the list goes on and on. In many instances, folks employed in these fields earn far more than folks with college degrees. They frequently also enjoy a higher level of satisfaction with their jobs. It's a true shame that our educational and political systems places such little value on the skilled trades. College is not for everyone, but you wouldn't know it by listening to educators or politicians. End of rant.

My brother-in-law is a perfect example. He left the Army in 1968 after politely refusing a second tour in Vietnam as a communcations NCO. (He is still a HAM radio enthusiast and he really knows electronics.) He became a tool and die apprentice. When he finished that he went to work for one of the big auto makers in the Detroit area. Before long he was back in school at night using his GI Bill to study air conditioning and heating repair. He opened his repair business as a part time weekend job. When things began to boom in the oil industry in the late 70's he moved to Houston and went to work installing air conditioning in new buildings. When the oil boom became a bust he was back in Detriot in time for the auto industry to pick back up. He went back to school at night and studied computer hardware and software. He eventially became the Matag repairman for an automated/robotic assembly line.

By being trained for the right field at the right time, my brother-in-law has earned far more than most college graduates. I saw his income tax returns a few years ago and he was making just over six figures as a "wage slave" (NOT! Can any of the managers walk out and have a job with the competition the same day? Do they get overtime and time and a half and double time?) and adding $10K to his income with his part time heating and air conditioning business (after writing off his workshop and tools/toys).

My dad became a computer programmer with a high school diploma in the 1960s, and he was a darned good one. No way in Hell you see that much today.

Actually, I work in high-tech with a lot of programmers, computer geeks, networking people, etc. I probably work with more people who don't have college degrees than those who do. Many of these people went to college for some period of time, then left to start working, however.

In fact, one guy that I work with is 4 years younger than me and career-wise we are both in similar positions. The difference is that I went to college first and he didn't.

I do agree with the general premise that there is tremendous pressure to go to college just because that's what you're supposed to do. The caveat to that is that because of the intense demand for high-tech workers many find that they do not need a degree. Most places hire people based on recommendations and experience. In fact, two of the really good people that I work with that did finish school have degrees in completely unrelated fields (psychology and geography). Many people that I have interviewed in the past have degrees in completely unrelated fields (if they have degrees at all).

To try to bring this back on topic, for a potential ER this is something to give careful thought to. Of course it is important to choose a career field you will enjoy, however you also won't want to discount earning potential and costs of entry (college, trade school, etc). For most people the road to ER is laid with the bricks of maximizing earnings and minimizing expenses. So if you can find a career that you enjoy, has minimal entry costs and the potential for high income you're all set. :)

Jim

<<Intercst, you may well be right in saying that one has a better chance of ER if one becomes an engineer, but let's not forget the quality and richness of life. I will always value my very good liberal arts education because it has greatly contributed to my QUALITY of life. During my working life AND during my early retirement, my education - a grounding in art, literature, music, history, and a variety of other liberal arts - has enriched and is enriching my life. With tongue in cheek, I compare that to playing with slide rule! (grin). >>


Perhaps by missing out on the beauty and richness of methematics, science and "playing with a slide rule", you shortchanged yourself.

Don't you think that in addition to a grounding in art, literature, music and history you should include a year of calculus and a year of calculus based physics to consider yourself educated and "well rounded"?


Without that, you aren't well rounded, your flat on one side.



Seattle Pioneer

VickiFool,

Get your daughter a subscription to "Fine Homebuilding". I highly recommend it as the last word on proper carpentry.

Also, does your area have a Habitat for Humanity branch? If she needs experience, I can't think of a better way to get it. Sort of like being a M*A*S*H doctor. The contacts should also be good.

Carpenters are paid pretty well, but finish carpenters do better. Electricians and Plumbers make the most on my job sites. She may be interested in becoming a Contractor ultimately. College is very useful if she wants to get on with a big company.

nmckay
who wishes more carpenters read fine homebuilding

<Also the choice of college is important. While a degree from Harvard or Stanford might be worth the tuition, many second-tier private colleges cost $25,000 per year and have academic reputations inferior to a $10,000 per year state university. A student who saved and invested that $15,000 per year difference would have a $500,000 nest egg by age 45.>


I do not dispute the math in this example. I also agree a state university can provide a very useful and valuable education. However, your underlying assumption that the average student has 100k sitting in their college fund is probably more wishful thinking. The 15k per year that would become 500k is not likely there in the first place. OTOH, if you consider the 15k X 4 as LT debt avoided, one can start with a much smaller hole to dig themselves out of.


BRG

BRG said, "The 15k per year that would become 500k is not likely there in the first place. "

That 15k was not there for me, but only because I chose to spend it...and I did not make much money in my 20's and 30's...I just didn't know how to save or stay out of debt.

It is true that in my late teens and early 20's I probably had little choice given the small hourly wage I was earning, but even then I could have saved _something_...but didn't.

I learned to do that later in life...but not too late.

mark

Seattle Pioneer said, "Without that, you aren't well rounded, your flat on one side."

I too was a liberal arts major...in college we called it fruit salad. I agree that it has made my life much richer. And I'll tell you something else...it also fattened my wallet because my ability with language both writing and speaking helped propel my career forward.

Of course I'm in the alysian fields now where every day is the same...but every day is good.

Everyone I know who is strictly Liberal Arts in fact does have Physics, calc, chemistry, and those "well rounding" science courses. That's why it's called Liberal Arts.... of course I am sure there are exceptions...some people are just filling a square at college. That's has been mentioned here many times. It's what's expected. So, they punch the ticket and some schools apparently will,let them get away with that type of not very liberal Lib Arts. A job? Well, maybe they ain't worried about a job. Some people don't have to.
And some engineers take an easier engineering dscipline rather than the absolutely hardest one there is to take. Of course by "copping out" like this these people just don't make as much money as they could have so they "suffer" finacially ... ;-)

*****************************
Don't you think that in addition to a grounding in art, literature, music and history you should include a year of calculus and a year of calculus based physics to consider yourself educated and "well rounded"?

Also the choice of college is important. While a degree from Harvard or Stanford might be worth the tuition, many second-tier private colleges cost $25,000 per year and have academic reputations inferior to a $10,000 per year state university. A student who saved and invested that $15,000 per year difference would have a $500,000 nest egg by age 45.

intercst

Excellent point. To further illustrate this point, I am a 25yr old in accounting for an entertainment company, and my boss is 33 yrs old. I went to a public California university, and managed to graduate debt-free. My boss went to a private university in St. Louis for his undergraduate studies, and also went to a private university for an MBA he did not complete.

Even if I never get a raise (I am currently at $42k a year), I will retire before my boss b/c I don't have $100,000 in student loans hanging over my head like my boss does (well, that and he leases his automobiles). I'm willing to bet that the university I attended has the better reputation also.

I suppose this either makes an argument for public universities, or it emphasizes the importance of making sure mommy and daddy pay for your private school education :)

One minor thing missing. Like, lose 70% of your retirement money in one bad year in the market.

FC

I suppose this either makes an argument for public universities, or it emphasizes the importance of making sure mommy and daddy pay for your private school education :)

No one seems to listen when I say this: unless your parents are wealthy, you pay the same for an education at a private college as you would pay at most public universities. Your student loan limits are also the same.

College Cost
In 2000-01 [] on-campus living and educational costs are as follows:

Tuition and Fees: $22,580
Room Charge: 3,710
Board: 3,710
[] Cost (College Bill): $30,000
Books and Personal Expenses (estimated) 1,750
Total: $31,750

Financial Need
In order to qualify for financial aid you must show "financial need."

COST AT [] - FAMILY CONTRIBUTION = FINANCIAL NEED
(Tuition & Fees, YOUR Room & Board, Personal & Transportation) - (The amount that you and your parents should be able to contribute)

Family Contribution
In order to qualify for financial aid, your financial need must be determined through the criteria established by an approved “needs analysis formula.' This formula estimates the amount both you and your family should be able to contribute towards your education, based on information you report on your PROFILE and FAFSA. [] uses a more in-depth formula to establish family contributions for institutional aid eligibility.

Student Contribution
Total family resources include a contribution from the student applicant. Student contribution is determined as follows:

The greater of:
a minimum of $1,450 - $2,200 (according to class level)
or
50% of your total income (minus standard allowances)

Parent contribution plus student contribution equals your “Total Family Contribution':

Parent Contribution
+ Student Contribution
= Total Family Contribution

(I substituted [] for the college name, but most private schools are very similar.)

These numbers are from a typical, small private college:

Financial Aid Statistics

[Our] students come from very diverse backgrounds. 
Consequently, the institution provides financial 
assistance to students who come from a variety of 
income backgrounds. This includes students who have 
very limited resources as well as students who have 
substantially more resources but still need assistance 
to meet the educational costs. Hence, family income 
ranges for students who qualify for need-based 
financial aid.

                                         2000   1999 
Total # Students Offered College Grants:  372    346 
Average Parental Contribution         $11,170 $8.784 
Average Need                          $18,826 $21,039 

Applicant Profile (1999 &2000) 

Family Income 2000 # of Students Average Package 1999 #of Students Average Package
 
$0 - $ 5,999        5 $25,450-$31,716    5 $25,201 
$6,000 - $11,999    1 $19,120            5 $27,910 
$12,000 - $17,999   8 $27,687-$31,750   10 $26,880 
$18,000 - $23,999   9 $28,300-$32,639   14 $27,337 
$24,000 - $29,999  16 $24,950-$31,900   15 $25,632 
$30,000 - $34,999  17 $21,751-$32,150   16 $23,895 
$35,000 - $39,999  11 $23,450-$34,813   14 $24,694 
$40,000 - $44,999  14 $19,093-$31,192   15 $23,844 
$45,000 - $49,999  21 $11,454-$32,960   20 $23,874 
$50,000 - $54,999  19 $15,025-$31,413   25 $21,551 
$55,000 - $59,999  29 $ 8,550-$27,285   18 $20,703 
$60,000 - $64,999  21 $11,025-$31,755   24 $20,368 
$65,000 - $69,999  27 $ 6,739-$32,168   13 $16,514 
$70,000 - $74,999  16 $10,925-$31,750   21 $15,514 
$75,000 - $79,999  12 $10,200-$23,786   21 $15,151 
$80,000 - $84,999  18 $11,025-$25,037   17 $11,864 
$85,000 - $89,999  15 $ 5,025-$22,275   12 $10,171 
$90,000 - $100,000 24 $ 1,000-$23,088   24 $11,824 
$100,000 & ABOVE   89 $ 1,000-$20,000   68 $ 8,976 

<<My boss went to a private university in St. Louis for his undergraduate studies, and also went to a private university for an MBA he did not complete.

Even if I never get a raise (I am currently at $42k a year), I will retire before my boss b/c I don't have $100,000 in student loans hanging over my head like my boss does (well, that and he leases his automobiles). I'm willing to bet that the university I attended has the better reputation also.>>

Interestingly enough, I went to the California public university with the best reputation (U.C. Berkeley) as an undergraduate as well as the most prestigious private university in St. Louis (Washington U.) for graduate school.

I am very glad I did it that way rather than the reverse.

--Boffo

>> Interestingly enough, I went to the California public university with the best reputation (U.C. Berkeley) as an undergraduate as well as the most prestigious private university in St. Louis (Washington U.) for graduate school. <<

Agreed. I know my share of pointy-headed academics, and even they say it privately: the best undergraduate educations often come from the "teaching institutions" in state university systems.

Many a graduate and doctoral student I've known have said the same thing -- attend an undergrad school from a teachers college, not a prestigious research institution. The latter often has grad students and lecturers leading the courses rather than tenured, Ph.D. faculty.

And only at the graduate levels of these "high-brow" colleges and universities do many of the "world's top faculty" even begin to realize you exist.

#29, product of a "cheap" Cal State undergrad education

She may be interested in becoming a Contractor ultimately. College is very useful if she wants to get on with a big company.

Heck,

Based on my experience with contractors, all she has to do is show up when she says she will to get a good following.

InParadise, who is pleased to no longer wait around for late contractors!

You certainly can end up paying less at a private university than at a public university. One shouldn't dismiss private universities out of hand as being too expensive when considering where to go to school or to send their children.

However, having gone to UCLA and worked at its rival private university, I know firsthand that some students were leaving the university with student loan debt equal to the total I spent on my education. And while the tuition at UC schools hasn't significantly changed since I graduated, the tuition at the private school increased significantly every semester I worked there. The biannual/annual tuition increases that inevitably come with private education is something that also needs to be considered.

And much of this tuition increase isn't necessary. Part of my job was to make sure that come June, the end of the fiscal year, that my department had spent all of its budget so that it didn't have its budget cut the following year. My first year I had to creatively spend $20,000 in June, and my second year I had to spend 30,000. Instead of buying nice reasonably priced sofas for the new faculty lounge, I bought a nice $10,000 leather sofa plus $6000 in accompanying furniture. Much like Fidelity funds, much of the expense of private universities doesn't in any way increase the value of the education received.

And yes, I'm certain that this happens at public universities also, I just don't believe it happens at the level I saw while working at the private university.

Plan your retirement expecting no inheritance.

If my father has his way, I'm going to end up having to pay $100.

He figure's he's dead - $100 isnt going to break me, and noone will have more fun with his money than he will....

And while the tuition at UC schools hasn't significantly changed since I graduated, the tuition at the private school increased significantly every semester I worked there.

The student does not pay the full tuition ... most private colleges charge the student a small fraction of the tuition. I posted numbers on this board to prove this point. Students often take out massive student loans to fund a better life style (trips during spring break, better off campus living accomodations, car payements, etc.), not to fund the tuition.

Another blurb from a private college's web site:

Financial aid eligibility is the difference between the total cost of attending a given college and the family contribution. This total cost includes tuition and fees, room and board, an allowance for books, supplies, and other incidental expenses, and a travel allowance where warranted.

For example, assume an estimated cost of $13,000 at a state university. A student whose family contribution is $7,000 would have a financial aid eligibility of $6,000 if he or she lived in a dormitory at that state university. The same student would have a financial aid eligibility more than $25,000 if he or she lived on campus at [this college].

In other words, the family contribution is $7,000 at both the state university and the private college. It only cost more to attend a private college if your family contribution would exceed the $13,000 cost of attending the state university.

While some of the things mentioned might delay ER, it would be silly to live your life on that basis.

You get married because you love the other person and want to share your lives.

You get divorced because something has gone wrong.

You have kids because you want to have kids (or something went wrong).

Nowhere in those decisions would I ever suggest to someone that they say "gee...maybe I shouldn't get married...because then I won't be able to retire until I'm 50 instead of 45."

Oh, and as long as I'm posting....prometheuss...
financial aid is not free money...it includes loans and work-study. So, going to a more expensive school has the potential to increase these for you. You might very well get more grants from a private school than a public one, but you might pay more in loans as well.

In my case, my undergrad school did not give me any financial aid (maybe a couple hundred bucks my jr/sr years). I guess my parents were "dumb" for having saved too much money and for making too much.

I did get financial aid for grad school. This included a ~8k Fellowship. However, that still left 16k in tuition to pay. I paid 8k right away and had a loan for the rest. I could have gone to a less expensive school and it would have cost me less than 8k/year. Of course, I wouldn't have learned what I did, met the people I did, and gotten the jobs that I have.

I did take some classes at a cheap school to figure out what I wanted to do for grad school...an inexpensive way to figure out my life. :)

(disclaimer: every situation is different and I'd suggest someone talk to the financial aid dept of any school that they are considering...so that they can get better information based on their own situation.)

justpatrick

Add to the list of FI/RE enablers:

-Pick your career path carefully. You might be happier in a lower paying job, but would you be happier working for 40 years in your first choice job vs. working for 25 in your second choice job if it paid more?

-Choose your career with an eye towards the education "required." ("Required" is in quotes because some jobs really have a degree requirement, and others have only the tradition of said requirement.) Will attending that Ivy League College for your master's degree in art history really pay off? [I can't imagine that it could ever be worth it, but to some people it may be their dream, or daddy's rich so it doesn't matter, or...] Don't just major in something that you like--figure out what you want to do with your life and get the education/training needed (and it may not be college).

-Pick your spouse carefully. Choosing unwisely may cost you more than you'll make in your lifetime.

-Pick your spouse once. Choosing unwisely enough to get divorced will cost a lot. Choosing unwisely and not getting divorced may make your working career seem like 80 years.

-Live somewhere that doesn't have a high cost of living.

-Figure out early what the "no brainers" are. For example, very few 20 year olds at my company put enough into the 401k to get the full match (70% match on 7% of income). They lose--
-->Free money (the matching)
-->Tax Break
-->Decades of compounding
-->An S&P 500 Index with 0% annual fee.
Other no brainers: You don't need lots of life insurance if you're not married, don't have kids, and don't have (fiscal) responsibilities. Roth IRA. Paying low fees for banking and mutual funds. Don't keep comp/collision on a piece of junk car. (Before Christmas {I think} I posted a list on the Living Below Your Means board under the title "Free Money.")

-Have a life that doesn't revolve solely around money. Otherwise you may be able to retire early, but find you've lost years of your life. LIVING doesn't have to wait until ER.

ziggy 29 writes: Agreed. I know my share of pointy-headed academics, and even they say it privately: the best undergraduate educations often come from the "teaching institutions" in state university systems.

Many a graduate and doctoral student I've known have said the same thing -- attend an undergrad school from a teachers college, not a prestigious research institution. The latter often has grad students and lecturers leading the courses rather than tenured, Ph.D. faculty.

And only at the graduate levels of these "high-brow" colleges and universities do many of the "world's top faculty" even begin to realize you exist.

Perhaps at some colleges, but I took intro physics from a nobel prize winner (just 1 example among many of the great profs I had) and he certainly knew my name. Great guy, great class, and I very much doubt that I could have learned it better or from a more qualified instructor at a "teaching institution." Of course, YMMV.

I myself have been to law school and even gave teaching a shot. I now have my own heating/ac business along with appliance repair. I can't tell you how rewarding it is.

The people I highly respect are carpenters. To be able to take a raw piece of land and create a beautiful home is awe inspiring. If I could fulfill one of my big dreams, it would be to build a house.

To me, the most important thing that can delay ER is simply having a lack of desire to achieve it. You have to really want it and remember you are going against the mainstream. Are you immune to the mainstream trappings? That stash you have acumulated for ER may look might tempting to dive into to utilize as a down payment on a big fancy house. Of course this decision will push ER back "just a few years". Is that OK--well the decision is yours. There is a saying in Spanish: Querer es poder. Loosely translated: To want is to be able to.

Author: TheBadger Date: 3/6/01 9:00 PM Number: 33351
I am not quite sure how to express it; but it has to do with toys. Many people who we as RE's would consider foolish (or is that Foolish) & broke have a garage/basement of toys: motorcycles, ATV's, boats, guns, radio controlled airplanes, airplanes you sit in, sports cars, skis, HD TV's, etc,. etc.

One at a time there absolutely nothing wrong with any of the above.

I was right with you until this last statement!

I own an airplane that I am not willing to give up for early retirement. It costs me about $10,000 per year to own, not including the cost of flying it.

My dilema is that I want to RE and use the plane to travel around the country.

One thought is that I retire from my current job and take a job in which I can use the plane and write it off. Any prospective employers out there?

Russ

I own an airplane that I am not willing to give up for early retirement.

Replace airplane with Corvette for me. Sometimes finance and ER needs to be removed from your decision making process. Could I retire a couple years earlier without the Vette, probably, but who knows, I could also be dead tomorrow and regret never having owned the Vette I always wanted. Could Intercst live off a .75% withdrawal rate if he didn't spend so much on greens fees, likely : )

Each person has to do their own cost to benefit analysis. When I'm stomping some Ford butt the benefit of the Vette is greatr than the cost. And the benefit I just got from talking like a 15 yr. old even better! : )

Intercst, you may well be right in saying that one has a better chance of ER if one becomes an engineer, but let's not forget the quality and richness of life. I will always value my very good liberal arts education because it has greatly contributed to my QUALITY of life. During my working life AND during my early retirement, my education - a grounding in art, literature, music, history, and a variety of other liberal arts - has enriched and is enriching my life. With tongue in cheek, I compare that to playing with slide rule! (grin).

Engineer Response:
With tongue in cheek, we do get the liberal arts education with the 2 year core classes. Furthermore, it is easier to keep enriching your life in the liberal arts once you have an engineering degree, than the opposite. There really aren't that many opportunities for the general public to go and see the testing of a jet turbine, or a discussion in the design of the next artificial heart valve for instance. With tongue in cheek, it is always easier for an engineer to read Kafka than for a polititian to understand why we cannot make a laser shield that would protect us from missiles 100%, or why we cannot put an electrical generator in the driving shaft of the car to recharge a battery and use that in an electric motor to move the car and not waste all that turning.

justpatrick said

Oh, and as long as I'm posting....prometheuss...
financial aid is not free money...it includes loans and work-study. So, going to a more expensive school has the potential to increase these for you. You might very well get more grants from a private school than a public one, but you might pay more in loans as well.

I never said that financial aid was free money. I said that most students will pay the same at a private college as they would get at a public university. This happens because the student and parents are asked to pay what they can afford and the school or university makes up the difference.

What you say (a more expensive school increases student loans and family payments) is only true in this situation: Your calculated family contribution (i.e., ability to pay) exceeds the cost of a public university. Not many people are in that situation. Otherwise, a student gets exactly the same loans, work-study, student and family contribution numbers in a financial aid package from either the public university or the private college.

In my case, my undergrad school did not give me any financial aid (maybe a couple hundred bucks my jr/sr years). I guess my parents were "dumb" for having saved too much money and for making too much.

This is exactly as I describe. If you can afford to pay the tuition, then the college or university expects you to pay it. If you get a scholarship, your financial need usually decreases and your family pays about the same as they would have without the scholarship. (Some colleges now deduct only part of a scholarship from the student contribution because many students have figured this out and stopped looking for outside scholarships.)

I did get financial aid for grad school. This included a ~8k Fellowship. However, that still left 16k in tuition to pay. I paid 8k right away and had a loan for the rest. I could have gone to a less expensive school and it would have cost me less than 8k/year. Of course, I wouldn't have learned what I did, met the people I did, and gotten the jobs that I have.

I have only discussed undergraduate education. Graduate school is a totally different proposition.

I did take some classes at a cheap school to figure out what I wanted to do for grad school...an inexpensive way to figure out my life. :)

I agree with you totally here.

(disclaimer: every situation is different and I'd suggest someone talk to the financial aid dept of any school that they are considering...so that they can get better information based on their own situation.)

Again, I agree. I am just making an important point: do not rule out private colleges just because you think they cost more. They often do not even though the price tag is two or three times greater than the price tag for a public university. What you pay depends on your need. Private colleges expect to use their millions of dollars of endowment to pay a good chunk of their high tuition.

"Rent to experiment; only buy when you are committed to an avocation."

The advice is sound, except it seems to assume when you buy, you are buying brand new. If you have the means, all the power to you.

I don', and thus I will buy your ski equipment when you are ready to sell! :)

The advice is sound, except it seems to assume when you buy, you are buying brand new. If you have the means, all the power to you.

I don', and thus I will buy your ski equipment when you are ready to sell! :)

We usually buy our equipment in late March or April; when all of the equipment is discounted 50% to 80% for starters & end-of-season demos are discounted even more. Bottom line, you could comfortably outfit yourself completely in April, with good equipment for well under a $1000.

Secondly, when I am done with my equipment, believe me, you won't want it. Instead we normally donate it to the blind & disabled skier program so that the skis can literally be cut up to make runners & outriggers for the chairs used by para- quadra- plegic skiers.

TheBadger

I have to take issue with some of the posts suggesting people should emphasize engineering, etc. and not liberal arts when in college. My personal experience at Notre Dame allowed for a particularly broad exposure to liberal arts which I do not believe could practically be replicated when working/parenting/being a "grown up". During four years at ND, I earned degrees in business administration and economics and a minor in poetry while still adding four intense years of a varsity sport and working part time cleaning plates in the cafeteria. My first semester, I mixed Physics for Physics majors, honors English, a 400 level course on music theory, Chemistry, Math (forget which) and a survey course. Later, I was able to specialize in studying beatnik poetry, complete an intensive course on jazz, another on classic Greek literature, and a Marxist deconstruction of art history while still taking calculus and upper level statistics, econ and biz admin.

This simply would not have been possible with an engineering degree at ND (for me) or if I had remained a physics major. The ability to sample off the huge smorgasboard of educational opportunities when an undergrad was greatly limited for the engineers, science majors and architects I knew. In physics, the department seemed to deliberately prune two dozen freshmen into five people willing to essentially dedicate their lives for four years to the science department.

Realistically, how many engineers read Kafka for fun after graduating and have substantial discussions about his ideas? Where do you find the expert(s) with time to discuss Kafka with you? Some may, but probably not many.

I will not deny that building a solid career was harder for me than it would have been if I had pursued computer science. I currently hang out with mostly programmers (and, oddly enough, was offered a position teaching computer science by a peripheral member of our group who just assummed I had to be within the group because I can intelligently discuss some particulars). I have picked up more physics since college than in my freshman year as a physics major reading in my spare time. Having said that, even well written physics or stats work is hard sledding and I usually prefer a good mystery or computer game (Europe Universalis!) at the end of the work day.

Methinks the "you can just pick up liberal arts in your spare time" argument is a tad unbalanced. For a recent example of this argument, see below:

John

<<Engineer Response:
With tongue in cheek, we do get the liberal arts education with the 2 year core classes. Furthermore, it is easier to keep enriching your life in the liberal arts once you have an engineering degree, than the opposite...it is always easier for an engineer to read Kafka than for a polititian to understand why we cannot make a laser shield that would protect us from missiles 100%, or why we cannot put an electrical generator in the driving shaft of the car to recharge a battery and use that in an electric motor to move the car and not waste all that turning.>>

John3haha writes,

The ability to sample off the huge smorgasboard of educational opportunities when an undergrad was greatly limited for the engineers, science majors and architects I knew.

I had no problem sampling the smorgasbord at The University of Michigan. There, and I suspect that at most universities, "educational opportunity" courses are open to anyone wishing to attend.

I was taught early that all work and no play make Duggg a dull boy, and my newspaper editor father encouraged me to pursue broad interests, while at the same time, focusing on a higher paying career.

At the College of Engineering, in addition to the four required courses in the humanities, I thoroughly enjoyed taking courses in such diverse subjects as weather, music composition, and mapmaking.

The conclusion that engineers are incapable of discussing Kafka is ridiculous.

> Not that contruction people don't do well...but some
> of the work is highly seasonal..... and
> outdoors...which might be fine for 5 or 10 years, but
> then you might like to be inside....

Not only is it seasonal, but highly dependent upon the economy. I dare say that construction work is one field that you probably don't want to be in if things turn south and people stop looking to build/purchase homes.

That's why, if the SysAdmin gig ever stops panning out, I can always fall back on the ol' college diploma and start working as a professional mathematician.

-Mike

For anyone who wants to be a carpenter, I'd suggest working with several different carpenters and contractors while still in high school.

If dragging heavy pieces of wood, banging away with a hammer for hours at a stretch, and coming home with splinters and sawdust in her teeth still seems like fun then more power to her.

On the other hand, things that look like fun can sometimes turn out to be a lot more work and less entertaining when you're down in the trenches for a while.

Either way, it's good experience, and it's always reassuring to have a more concrete idea what you want to do with your life.

For anyone who wants to be a carpenter, I'd suggest working with
several different carpenters and contractors while still in high school.

If dragging heavy pieces of wood, banging away with a hammer for
hours at a stretch, and coming home with splinters and sawdust in
her teeth still seems like fun then more power to her.

On the other hand, things that look like fun can sometimes turn out
to be a lot more work and less entertaining when you're down in the
trenches for a while.

Either way, it's good experience, and it's always reassuring to have a
more concrete idea what you want to do with your life.

My brother is an architect and a builder. His company designed and built a timberframe house for me (1992-94) and I got to meet a lot of very skilled carpenter-types, ranging from cabinet makers (true artists) to metal roofers (built like Bruce Lee...like spiders with Popeye forearms and deep tans.) I had a lot of respect for all of them.

One observation, though...I believe that the artist side of the profession is dying. This is partly because of U.S. insurance laws and the pressure that this puts on builders and clients. In Maine, I was shelling out about $36/hr per worker with $18 of that to foot the bill for worker's compensation insurance. Multiply that out over a whole house and you'll quickly see why builders/owners try to cut corners. Quality building just gets to be very very expensive.

I love my house, but I could probably not turn around right now and sell it for anything like what it cost to build...Glad I don't "have to."

If anyone is considering building a house, make sure you fully scrutinize the possibilities "off-the-rack" before going the custom route. Unless you like the notion of 6 guys x 8 hrs x $22 (today's rate) x 5 months just for insurance.

Euro

<<While some of the things mentioned might delay ER, it would be silly to live your life on that basis.

You get married because you love the other person and want to share your lives.

You get divorced because something has gone wrong.

You have kids because you want to have kids (or something went wrong).

Nowhere in those decisions would I ever suggest to someone that they say "gee...maybe I shouldn't get married...because then I won't be able to retire until I'm 50 instead of 45."
>>



I disagree.

Many decisions in life contain risk of varying degrees. Recognizing and understanding those risks before accepting them is the prudent and rational thing to do.

Unfortunately, I am not aware of any good statistical studies that detail the risks an costs of things such as marriage, children and divorce.

Heh, heh! It would truly be wonderful to have an authoritative study that compared the effect of various life choices to its effect on early retirement--giving results such as:


Life Choice Projected age of ER

Single 35

Single + Child 55

Married 45

Married + Child 60

Divorced 55

Divorced + Child 65


People would then be making choices with their eyes open, anyhow. Perhaps that is why such studies aren't available.



Seattle Pioneer

<<To me, the most important thing that can delay ER is simply having a lack of desire to achieve it. >>


I think this is true. I quit my job as a repairman for a utility company only when they made me choose between continueing as an employee and closing my independent repair business ---that choice made quutting a fairly easy decision.

Finding this board helped clarify and refine my choices. I discovered that I could have retired several years earlier! Curses, I worked for more income than I needed and paid more taxes, too!

I never had early retirement as a goal --I simply saved because I am frugal and invested because there was nothing else to do with money. If the kind of information and discussion that is present on this board had been brought to my attention, I probably would have adopted early retirement as a goal a good deal earlier.



Seattle Pioneer

<<I own an airplane that I am not willing to give up for early retirement. It costs me about $10,000 per year to own, not including the cost of flying it.

My dilema is that I want to RE and use the plane to travel around the country.
>>


Heh, heh! No problem! Just save 25X times the $10,000 you need to own the plane plus operating expenses and taxes.

If the cost of owning and operating the plane is $20,000 per year and the taxes on $20,000 are 25% let's say, then you just need to save an additional 25 times $25,000 or $625,000. Then you can fly forever!


Seattle Pioneer

I own an airplane that I am not willing to give up for early retirement. It costs me about $10,000 per year to own, not including the cost of flying it.

My dilema is that I want to RE and use the plane to travel around the country.

I once had a T-shirt that said "If God meant humans to fly, He'd have given us more money." ;-}

Dory36, who went through two Cessnas and two Mooneys, thus delaying ER by a few years

Author: SeattlePioneer Date: 3/9/01 12:01 AM Number: 33568
<<I own an airplane that I am not willing to give up for early retirement. It costs me about $10,000 per year to own, not including the cost of flying it.

My dilema is that I want to RE and use the plane to travel around the country.
>>


Heh, heh! No problem! Just save 25X times the $10,000 you need to own the plane plus operating expenses and taxes.

If the cost of owning and operating the plane is $20,000 per year and the taxes on $20,000 are 25% let's say, then you just need to save an additional 25 times $25,000 or $625,000. Then you can fly forever!

You're a little high (there aren't any taxes), and the operating expenses are only around $6000 (with extensive traveling), so the lump sum needed is more like $400,000!! I've done this same calculation a thousand times, and it always comes up to the same answer. Looks like I will have to come up with a way to generate up this amount. Getting rid of the plane is not an option.

A part time job after retirement, hmmmm?

Russ

If the cost of owning and operating the plane is $20,000 per year and the taxes on $20,000 are 25% let's say, then you just need to save an additional 25 times $25,000 or $625,000. Then you can fly forever!

You're a little high (there aren't any taxes),

Not true....if you need $20,000 after tax income, and you are in the 25% income tax bracket, then you have to have over $25,000 a year in extra income to have that $20K after taxes. Uncle Sam (and your state? ) get their share of that extra income. It will be in whatever incremental bracket you are in! (ie, if you have $50K income already, that takes you up to over $75K income).

That before tax income times 25 is what you have to have in your nest egg.

An alternative (and that depends upon your age) is at some point you would sell the airplane and do other things.....do you plan to keep flying after 65 or 70?

You might only want a 10 or 15 year payout period on the extra money for flying expenses, so you would need less. YOu could take out 6 or 8% for 10 years with no problem!...

Actually, Seattle Pioneer, a liberal arts degree, at least in my time, did include some math and science, including physics, as well as foreign language. My object was not to "put down" engineers, especially those who love what they do. But I do wonder about advising young people to go into the field just for the money, presumably so the young people can become disgruntled, start complaining about being "wage slaves," and then aspire to retire early to get away from the profession. The logic eludes me (but then I guess you have to be an engineer to be logical). Still grinning.

mschorer writes,

Actually, Seattle Pioneer, a liberal arts degree, at least in my time, did include some math and science, including physics, as well as foreign language. My object was not to "put down" engineers, especially those who love what they do. But I do wonder about advising young people to go into the field just for the money, presumably so the young people can become disgruntled, start complaining about being "wage slaves," and then aspire to retire early to get away from the profession. The logic eludes me (but then I guess you have to be an engineer to be logical). Still grinning.

When I surveyed the wide world of work back when I was in high school I pretty much decided it all sucked, whether you were in a technical field or one of the more "artsy" endeavors. If you have to work for pay to live, someone is going to be in a position to tell you what to do.

If I thought I had the skills to earn multi-millions of dollars as the next Stephen King or Tom Clancy, I might have opted for the liberal arts. Fortunately, I researched what the average annual income was for various jobs and learned that the engineering fields had the highest average starting salaries for a 4-year degree. I'm sure there are a few liberal arts majors that make more than engineers, but the majority make less.

Picking a high paying field is kind of like investing in an index fund. The odds are you'll at least be average, and if the average engineer makes three times the average museum docent, you're likely to do well.

My strategy was to find something I could tolerate that paid a high salary. I didn't (and still don't) see any job that I really liked. I was looking for something that got me to the point where I didn't need a job (or a boss) as soon as possible.

intercst

Author: telegraph Date: 3/9/01 10:22 AM Number: 33582

I wrote:
...there aren't any taxes

telegraph replied:
Not true....That before tax income times 25 is what you have to have in your nest egg.

I answer:
You're right. I was thinking that the tax mentioned in the original post was referring to a luxury tax or something, which there aren't any in TX.

Federal Income Tax, there is - very irritating!!

I'm 53 now, and I'll continue to fly as long as my health holds up. Most of my older friends are still flying at 75. Some are over 80. It's all a matter of passing the FAA physical.

Russ

<If I thought I had the skills to earn multi-millions of dollars as the next Stephen King or Tom Clancy, I might have opted for the liberal arts. >


A lot of times talent does not lead to success. From what I have read and heard about Stephen King, his childhood was lived in poverty. His early years after he completed college were quite difficult. He always had a passion for writing. He never "knew" that he would be a successful writer. One thing was clear, his college education did not lead to immediate riches. He had a very low paying teaching job in small town Maine (not exactly a fast track job). The fact that he became wealthy beyond his imagination was not something that could have been predicted.

I think it is worthwhile to at least give the economics some consideration. If your desire is to be a social worker, fine. That choice should be made with the full realization that it not fertile ground for a FI/RE career for the typical person. Even the careers that are likely to produce high income do not gurarantee FI/RE. As we have seen, many high income people have a hard time holding onto their money. The earlier that you have FI/RE concept in your mind, the better your odds become.


BRG

• If you're married, stay that way.

If you're married to the right person, as I am, stay that way. If you recognize that your marriage was a serious mistake and have been unable to solve the problems, I see quite a bit of merit in getting as friendly as possible of a divorce or at least working longer with people who you do enjoy in order to avoid spending more RE time with the wrong person.

• If you're not married, stay that way.

Again, RE sounds nice, but RE with the right partner strikes me as even richer, even if it comes a few years later.

• If you're childless, stay that way. See the Fool board on choosing not to have children.

Again, children will delay retirement, but not necessarily by a lot. In addition, they can make your life as a whole and your retirement richer in other ways.

• If you have children, make them become independent, self-supporting adults and plan on delaying your FIRE.

Great advice - from the perspective of responsible parenting in addition to FI/RE.

• If you think you have the time, skill, computer power, knowledge and insight to beat the market consistently, reconsider. Be sure to include management fees, trading and research costs, the value of your time and capital gains taxes. See the Fool board on index fund investing and study up on efficient market theory.

I don't quite agree. I believe that most of us have the time and skill to identify particularly bad stocks and to avoid them. I don't expect to ever outperform the broad market by a lot, but I have outperformed by 1% to 4% every year for the past decade, even last year.

• Plan your retirement expecting no inheritance.
• Inherit anyway.
• When you get advice from faceless strangers on the internet, look for some verification before you depend on it.

Best advice of all, not just for faceless strangers, but also for your brother-in-law, your neighbor, the guy on that investment program on your favorite network's evening investment program, and everyone else who provides you with an idea.

As for the decisions on marriage and kids, moderation in all things is best. For some, kids are not important and it makes sense not to have any children. For others, it's like the decision to take a vacation that involves air travel, to have that dinner out on occasion, or to replace the car at the still functional age of twelve years. FI/RE shouldn't be the only priority in a balanced life. It's not my place or the place of anyone else to tell you how cutting an extra day/week/year off the time until FI/RE compares with kids, love, coffee, or anything else that is also of value in your life. Just make your own choices balancing the opportunity costs against the benefits of that decision.

john3haha: Realistically, how many engineers read Kafka for fun after graduating and have substantial discussions about his ideas? Where do you find the expert(s) with time to discuss Kafka with you?

Here's one place: http://boards.fool.com/Messages.asp?mid=14549972&bid=114972

There is a discussion starting soon abour Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid

regards
cliff
... engineer who enjoys Kafka

With tongue in cheek, I compare that to playing with slide rule!

A few years ago, I came across a slide rule, and being an engineer, played around with it. I didn't get it to do anything may as well have been Greek! Guess this engineer better stick with calculators...nah, guess I'd rather stay retired.

DLF ;-p

She's brilliant but tiny.

Well, the carpenter who built our house was a guy but also "tiny" compared to me and DH any way. Nice to keep ones options open, but if she likes carpentry, I say go for it.

Dlf

goinfishing,
read with interest your reply.i am also an avid fisherman on the upper gulf coast of fla.
regards,
jerjo