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No. of Recommendations: 24
I appreciate and enjoy the advice from the friendly members of the Bond Board.

I dislike personal attacks and despise the impulse that motivates the attacker, especially since he has repeatedly attacked Bond Board members, degrading the friendly atmosphere of the board. I am placing the attacker on ignore.

I will not stoop to defending myself.

I ask my friends to please ignore any personal comments about my and my investment strategies. Such personal attacks are off topic and do not add to the knowledge of the board. I trust you to ignore such viciousness when you read it.

I will return to the bond board to ask advice from those who will answer questions objectively from their kind desire to help.

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I'm very sorry that things have happened that disturb you. I, for one, ALAWYS appreciate your comments, even though once in a while I might disagree with one.

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Just a note of encouragement to an old friend. Don't take things personally. You and I know that the best approach to personal finance is personalized and requires a rational weighing of risks, assets, and goals. When dealing with someone on a mission to convince himself and others that his love of high risk bond investing is a necessity, even though in the past he has said staying even with inflation would keep him more than solvent for a lifetime, unless you want to beat your head against the wall, you just have to fold. I'm sorry I am no longer available to offer rational advice to those for whom it might be useful, but folding was what was best for me and probably best for you.
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No. of Recommendations: 7
I'm sorry I am no longer available to offer rational advice to those for whom it might be useful, but folding was what was best for me and probably best for you.

And what about the rest of us?????

There are other options, ignore and/or do not engage. Sometimes we work in the same office with people we dislike or disagree intensely with, its just the way of things. We are under no obligation to agree or submit.

One of the great dangers we can do is to cease listening to what we self define as the radical. Just because they are radical doesn't mean they don't have something useful to point out. Our opponents more than our allies and friends are far more likely to point out when we may have our head trapped by a sphincter which gives some value to their outlook. Its one of the reasons modern D.C. politics has been so dysfunctional, each party has radicalized the other. Once an opinion is deemed radical it can be conveniently ignored because it is deemed without merit.

my $.02

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No. of Recommendations: 3
Opposing views are fine, disagreements are fine. Sometimes some degree of nastiness finds it way into the posts about disagreements.

But that last post, which has been since removed, was just an outright personal attack, and had nothing to do with fixed income investing. That does not have a place in the office or on these boards.
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No. of Recommendations: 19
<I'm sorry I am no longer available to offer rational advice to those for whom it might be useful, but folding was what was best for me and probably best for you.>

In my experience, there are 10 nice people for every nasty in pretty much every collection of human beings. I don't think it's best for me to fold, because that would mean isolation from the people I really like and can exchange ideas with in a courteous fashion. Imagine how fragmented human society would be if every nice person withdrew from a group if a nasty person showed up.

The Ignore button is very useful.

I miss your input, Loki. Use your Ignore button and come back to the board, please.

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as usual, good advice from Wendy. it can be on finances or on personal communication. i would love to meet her.


(who has at times typed up the personal, then deleted it remembering grace and common sense before hitting the send button)
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No. of Recommendations: 10
<When Charlie decided, after years of absence, having left TMF in a temper tantrum, to return, he did so with an agenda of taking over this board. He is an extremely combative person, and he viewed me as his chief competitor....

I either had to compete with him, which is a waste of my time, or quit. More power to you in whatever you decide to do. You are a good person.>

Thank you, Loki. I really appreciate your warm words.

But I'd like to point out an additional choice, from a woman's perspective.

I have observed in many situations, from social to business, that men are easily provoked into competition. (I believe this is deep in the evolutionary roots of being male.) Yes, men often cooperate, but when a combative male appears with the apparent aim of "taking over," a man in a leadership position often feels as if he must meet the challenge or lose his leadership.

Women do not feel the same intensity of competitiveness as men. Instead, women often (not always!) recruit strong arrivals into cooperation.

The impulse to cooperate is deep in the evolutionary roots of being female. Women have a pleasant-feeling hormone, oxytocin, which is stimulated by cooperation (among other things).

As a result, I would much rather cooperate with my friends on the board than compete.

You wrote, "I had to compete with him..."

In fact, you don't have to compete with anyone. You can simply put an unpleasant person on ignore. Just click on the "frowny face." Bingo! It's done!

If someone rants and attacks you, have the attack removed from the board. Ask your friends to ignore any further attacks (since the attacker will be on ignore and you won't be reading the attacks). There's no need for me (or anyone else) to stoop to attack or defense. Most people are sensible enough to recognize that the attack originates in the personality of the attacker, not in the person who is being attacked.

Ignoring insults and carrying on a task regardless is a solution to this problem that has been known since ancient days.*

Loki, your writings are valuable and have always been valuable. If you abdicate the field, people who come to the Bonds board will only have one side to read. The main point of buying bonds -- safety and security -- will be driven off the board. That just doesn't make sense!

As far as I am concerned, you are the leader of the Bonds and Fixed Income Board, by virtue of your years of helpfulness and knowledge. Since most bond buyers are mature and reasonable, the Bonds Board doesn't generally need a leader (since it usually doesn't degenerate into off-topic political or personal mud-slinging). However, now the board needs a leader -- a real leader -- YOU.

On METAR, any post containing a personal attack is immediately removed, according to the written rules of METAR, which the board members voted in overwhelmingly. I think that should be the rule on the Bonds Board, too. If I was the leader of this board, I would immediately remove any post that contained a personal attack, even if it was just one nasty sentence in a loooooonnnngggg post.

That would quickly return the Bonds Board to its erstwhile pleasantness. Nobody wants to see a lot of work wasted by having a post pulled.

There is plenty of room for different investment decisions in the bond arena, depending on the needs and risk tolerance of the individual investor. This is a purely rational decision.

There is absolutely no excuse for personal attacks. None!

I suggest that you return to the Bonds Board in either of two ways.

The preferable way would be to lay out the ground rules (see the METAR FAQs) and have the Bond Board members comment and then vote on them. Once voted on and accepted, these rules should be rigorously enforced. People who don't follow the rules should have their posts pulled and can be invited to leave. (Yes, I have invited nasties to leave METAR.)

The less preferable way would be to put people you dislike on "Ignore" and continue to post without the irritation of seeing their nastiness.

Please consider this, Loki. We need you here.



From "The Arabian Nights' Entertainments, ed. Andrew Lang, [1898], at

"Gentle dervish," replied Prince Bahman, "I come from far, and I seek the Talking Bird, the Singing Tree, and the Golden Water. I know that they are to be found somewhere in these parts, but I am ignorant of the exact spot. Tell me, I pray you, if you can, so that I may not have travelled on a useless quest." While he was speaking, the prince observed a change in the countenance of the dervish, who waited for some time before he made reply.

"My lord," he said at last, "I do know the road for which you ask, but your kindness and the friendship I have conceived for you make me loth to point it out."

"But why not?" inquired the prince. "What danger can there be?"

"The very greatest danger," answered the dervish. "Other men, as brave as you, have ridden down this road, and have put me that question. I did my best to turn them also from their purpose, but it was of no use. Not one of them would listen to my words, and not one of them came back. Be warned in time, and seek to go no further."

"I am grateful to you for your interest in me," said Prince Bahman, "and for the advice you have given, though I cannot follow it. But what dangers can there be in the adventure which courage and a good sword cannot meet?"

"And suppose," answered the dervish, "that your enemies are invisible, how then?"

"Nothing will make me give it up," replied the prince, "and for the last time I ask you to tell me where I am to go."

When the dervish saw that the prince's mind was made up, he drew a ball from a bag that lay near him, and held it out. "If it must be so," he said, with a sigh, "take this, and when you have mounted your horse throw the ball in front of you. It will roll on till it reaches the foot of a mountain, and when it stops you will stop also. You

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will then throw the bridle on your horse's neck without any fear of his straying, and will dismount. On each side you will see vast heaps of big black stones, and will hear a multitude of insulting voices, but pay no heed to them, and, above all, beware of ever turning your head. If you do, you will instantly become a black stone like the rest.

For those stones are in reality men like yourself, who have been on the same quest, and have failed, as I fear that you may fail also. If you manage to avoid this pitfall, and to reach the top of the mountain, you will find there the Talking Bird in a splendid cage, and you can ask of him where you are to seek the Singing Tree and the Golden Water. That is all I have to say. You know what you have to do, and what to avoid, but if you are wise you will think of it no more, but return whence you have come."

The prince smilingly shook his head, and thanking the dervish once more, he sprang on his horse and threw the ball before him.

The ball rolled along the road so fast that Prince Bahman had much difficulty in keeping up with it, and it never relaxed its speed till the foot of the mountain was reached. Then it came to a sudden halt, and the prince at once got down and flung the bridle on his horse's neck. He paused for a moment and looked round him at the masses of black stones with which the sides of the mountain were covered, and then began resolutely to ascend. He had hardly gone four steps when he heard the sound of voices around him, although not another creature was in sight.

"Who is this imbecile?" cried some, "stop him at once." "Kill him," shrieked others, "Help! robbers! murderers! help! help!" "Oh, let him alone," sneered another, and this was the most trying of all, "he is such a beautiful young man; I am sure the bird and the cage must have been kept for him."

At first the prince took no heed to all this clamour, but continued to press forward on his way. Unfortunately this conduct, instead of silencing the voices, only seemed to irritate them the more, and they arose with redoubled fury, in front as well as behind. After some time he grew bewildered, his knees began to tremble, and finding himself in the act of falling, he forgot altogether the advice of the dervish. He turned to fly down the mountain, and in one moment became a black stone.

As may be imagined, Prince Perviz and his sister were all this time in the greatest anxiety, and consulted the magic knife, not once but many times a day. Hitherto the blade had remained bright and spotless, but on the fatal hour on which Prince Bahman and his horse were changed into black stones, large drops of blood appeared on the surface. "Ah! my beloved brother," cried the princess in horror, throwing the knife from her, "I shall never see you again, and it is I who have killed you. Fool that I was to listen to the voice of that temptress, who probably was not speaking the truth. What are the Talking Bird and the Singing Tree to me in comparison with you, passionately though I long for them!"

Prince Perviz's grief at his brother's loss was not less than that of Princess Parizade, but he did not waste his time on useless lamentations.

"My sister," he said, "why should you think the old woman was deceiving you about these treasures, and what would have been her object in doing so! No, no, our brother must have met his death by some accident, or want of precaution, and to-morrow I will start on the same quest."

Terrified at the thought that she might lose her only remaining brother, the princess entreated him to give up his project, but he remained firm. Before setting out, however, he gave her a chaplet of a hundred pearls, and said, "When I am absent, tell this over daily for me. But if you should find that the beads stick, so that they will not slip one after the other, you will know that my brother's fate has befallen me. Still, we must hope for better luck."

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Then he departed, and on the twentieth day of his journey fell in with the dervish on the same spot as Prince Bahman had met him, and began to question him as to the place where the Talking Bird, the Singing Tree and the Golden Water were to be found. As in the case of his brother, the dervish tried to make him give up his project, and even told him that only a few weeks since a young man, bearing a strong resemblance to himself, had passed that way, but had never come back again.

"That, holy dervish," replied Prince Perviz, "was my elder brother, who is now dead, though how he died I cannot say."

"He is changed into a black stone," answered the dervish, "like all the rest who have gone on the same errand, and you will become one likewise if you are not more careful in following my directions." Then he charged the prince, as he valued his life, to take no heed of the clamour of voices that would pursue him up the mountain, and handing him a ball from the bag, which still seemed to be half full, he sent him on his way.

When Prince Perviz reached the foot of the mountain he jumped from his horse, and paused for a moment to recall the instructions the dervish had given him. Then he strode boldly on, but had scarcely gone five or six paces when he was startled by a man's voice that seemed close to his ear, exclaiming: "Stop, rash fellow, and let me punish your audacity." This outrage entirely put the dervish's advice out of the prince's head. He drew his sword, and turned to avenge himself, but almost before he had realised that there was nobody there, he and his horse were two black stones.

Not a morning had passed since Prince Perviz had ridden away without Princess Parizade telling her beads, and at night she even hung them round her neck, so that if she woke she could assure herself at once of her brother's safety. She was in the very act of moving them through her fingers at the moment that the prince fell a victim to his impatience, and her heart sank when the first pearl remained fixed in its place. However she had long made up her mind what she would do in such a case, and the following morning the princess, disguised as a man, set out for the mountain.

As she had been accustomed to riding from her childhood, she managed to travel as many miles daily as her brothers had done, and it was, as before, on the twentieth day that she arrived at the place where the dervish was sitting. "Good dervish," she said politely, "will you allow me to rest by you for a few moments, and perhaps you will be so kind as to tell me if you have ever heard of a Talking Bird, a Singing Tree, and some Golden Water that are to be found somewhere near this?"

"Madam," replied the dervish, "for in spite of your manly dress your voice betrays you, I shall be proud to serve you in any way I can. But may I ask the purpose of your question?"

"Good dervish," answered the princess, "I have heard such glowing descriptions of these three things, that I cannot rest till I possess them."

"Madam," said the dervish, "they are far more beautiful than any description, but you seem ignorant of all the difficulties that stand in your way, or you would hardly have undertaken such an adventure. Give it up, I pray you, and return home, and do not ask me to help you to a cruel death."

"Holy father," answered the princess, "I come from far, and I should be in despair if I turned back without having attained my object. You have spoken of difficulties; tell me, I entreat you, what they are, so that I may know if I can overcome them, or see if they are beyond my strength."

So the dervish repeated his tale, and dwelt more firmly than before on the clamour of the voices, the horrors of the black stones, which were once living men, and the difficulties of climbing the mountain; and pointed out that the chief means of success was never to look behind till you had the cage in your grasp.

"As far as I can see," said the princess, "the first thing is not to mind the tumult of the voices that follow you till you reach the cage, and then never to look behind. As to this, I think I have enough self-control to look straight before me; but as it is quite possible that I might be frightened by the voices, as even the boldest men have been, I will stop up my ears with cotton, so that, let them make as much noise as they like, I shall hear nothing."

"Madam," cried the dervish, "out of all the number who have asked me the way to the mountain, you are the first who has ever suggested such a means of escaping the danger! It is possible that you may succeed, but all the same, the risk is great."

"Good dervish," answered the princess, "I feel in my heart that I shall succeed, and it only remains for me to ask you the way I am to go."

Then the dervish said that it was useless to say more, and he gave her the ball, which she flung before her.

The first thing the princess did on arriving at the mountain was to stop her ears with cotton, and then, making up her mind which was the best way to go, she began her ascent. In spite of the cotton, some echoes of the voices reached her ears, but not so as to trouble her. Indeed, though they grew louder and more insulting the higher she climbed, the princess only laughed, and said to herself that she certainly would not let a few rough words stand between her and the goal. At last she perceived in the distance the cage and the bird, whose voice joined itself in tones of thunder to those of the rest: "Return, return! never dare to come near me."

At the sight of the bird, the princess hastened her steps, and without vexing herself at the noise which by this time had grown deafening, she walked straight up to the cage, and seizing it, she said: "Now, my bird, I have

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got you, and I shall take good care that you do not escape." As she spoke she took the cotton from her ears, for it was needed no longer.
[end quote]
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No. of Recommendations: 5
Loki and Wendy,

I have no interest or desire in bonds and hate having to wade through dozens of posts trying to find the occasional nugget, which has been fleeting.

Seriously, has anyone thought about starting a new board and calling it something like "conservative fixed income". I'm sure many would jump there, to get a forum which touched only briefly on bonds, if at all, rather than being on one which is dominated by it.

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I don't mean I need to compete out of some male ego trip thing. I mean, to make productive use of my time, I can't have every suggestion I make slammed. Putting someone on ignore doesn't help if someone else reading what I've said gets told I'm stupid.

The only reason I even occasionally look at this board is to see if someone has useful news. I have nothing more to learn for my personal financial planning, and I see nothing I can contribute to help others.
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<Women have a pleasant-feeling hormone, oxytocin, which is stimulated by cooperation (among other things).>

I thought that was a prescription drug that has strong demand on the black market, with lots of people addicted to it?? Same thing, or is it a different spelling??

<The main point of buying bonds -- safety and security>

I half disagree, there is a whole other viewpoint of bonds as more speculative but higher-rewarding investment vehicles.

<There is plenty of room for different investment decisions in the bond arena, depending on the needs and risk tolerance of the individual investor>

I agree

<now the board needs a leader>

I disagree...I think any site that allows posting needs a monitor that has blocking/removal/censorship privliges, but not necessarily a leader....see my next comment:

<Since most bond buyers are mature and reasonable, the Bonds Board doesn't generally need a leader>

I agree. But it does need a monitor, as does any site, to remove spam, advertisements, profanity/pornography, links to viruses, etc.

<There is absolutely no excuse for personal attacks. None!>

I agree 100%. As well as personal attacks, there is no excuse for snide comments either. Hopefully everyone is making informed investment decisions. Just because there is disagreement in a decision does not automatically mean that one is wrong and one is right. Often the results will not be known until some time in the future as to whether is was a good decision or not.

Fixed income investments cover a wide gamaut (sp?). From reading the board I've benefitted from learning about specific ones ranging from very conservative (the hi-yield checking account site) to the much more speculative. I have money in a hi-yield checking account, I have a ladder of I-bonds, I have triple-A corporates, but I also have some BBB bonds and I'm short the March T-Notes futures contract.

I did feel that one poster was becoming too rude, and tried to say as much in a nice way. I did report his last very nasty post to the Fool. The post was removed, and hopefully the poster was given some time off to cool his heels for a bit.

But I'd sure hate to see the board become a discussion site for only CD's and treasuries, with any potential board leader looking down on (or censoring) anyone that uses bonds to achieve capital gains. I've seen that ocurr here also.

After I've made my second million dollars, I'll have everything in treasuries and CD's. But untill that time comes, I'll have in interest in higher-rewarding and riskier bond plays. First off though, I've got to make my first million dollars.

While no one knows for sure how interest rates will play out in the next 3 months to 30 years, people can make informed decisions on informed opinions. And this is a good place to share and pick up that info.
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A new site was my original suggestion. I'll listen to the bond discussions, but that wasn't what attracted me here over three years ago. That happens often here at TMF.

Good suggestions!

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Sounds like you want a "Non-bond fixed income board." Why don't you found it and find out the interest?.

What is it yu are interested in: CDs, preferred stocks, what?

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<<Women have a pleasant-feeling hormone, oxytocin, which is stimulated by cooperation (among other things).>

I thought that was a prescription drug that has strong demand on the black market, with lots of people addicted to it?? Same thing, or is it a different spelling??>

You have confused the hormone, oxytocin, with the prescription opiate analgesic, oxycontin. They are a lot more different than Tweedledum and Tweedledee!

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No. of Recommendations: 8
< :) >
I like Oxycodone! MY friend Watson 749 - (White Round, like me)!!! But not as much as Oxytocin!!!!!! - Its only a kiss away....
</ :) >

If you do decide to leave many folks on the boards will be sad.

When you pseudo-left many folks on these boards were sad.

You both (understandably) must choose what is best for Wendy and Loki. I am a firm believer in the village, and while we are a small village, there is not one more important than that. I did not see the post in question - so will not comment on who or what. I did however read some follow up's which I suspect was related and it started to get well..competitive.. If this was a competition well, I would have left long ago a loser compared to the genius on this board. Especially w/ this collective genius.

"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one!" Spock

I am not advocating any one has to leave - only that given the nature of the board as the water cooler, the town hall, the medicine man's (or hormone woman's) teepee, lets leave the controversial personal attacks to the political boards.

For those who want to enjoy sharing knowledge, friendship and contribute to the village please stay and contribute.



Who thinks - For those who do want to compete, please:
feel free to take that part of the conversation
and join my colleagues at work who so far this year have made 12.7 billion (as of Q3) in FICC trading. There are plenty of those boards.
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