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http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=27916910

On a personal note, kinda-sorta related to this (it made me think of it):

Last year, I made less than I did the first year out of college. And I don’t mean in terms of buying power, I mean in actual dollars.

Buying power makes that figure even lower.

In that time I have had two children and paid an enormous amount of money in childcare (some years, nearly a third of my income). I have worked two jobs at times. I went through a long term lay-off, divorced, been chewed up and spit out by the legal system regarding custody and child support, and scrimped and saved to pay down debt I didn’t create.

I am, officially, living paycheck to paycheck. But not in reality. Why do I say that?

I would actually bring home more,*including if taxes were withheld*, if I were receiving unemployment and pulled the kids at of daycare.

That’s right ladies and gents, I’d be more ahead financially.

Something is seriously effed up about all that. I don’t know how to fix it, but that is majorly effed up. To get 9 years out of college and make enough less that unemployment nets me more money? Nuts.

Also, I have a safety net, a security blanket most cannot count on. My family would never allow me to fall far, and for that I am grateful. If I needed a car, I would have help acquiring one. If I needed a roof over our heads, one would be offered. Most people living paycheck to paycheck do not have this luxury, and I do.

I don’t know – I’m all jumbly today. Discuss topics from unemployment to real wages from 2000 thru now to daycare expenses to everything in between.

impolite
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I would actually bring home more,*including if taxes were withheld*, if I were receiving unemployment and pulled the kids at of daycare.

That’s right ladies and gents, I’d be more ahead financially.

Something is seriously effed up about all that. I don’t know how to fix it, but that is majorly effed up. To get 9 years out of college and make enough less that unemployment nets me more money? Nuts.




I disagree with the premise of this argument. You would not be bringing in more income on unemployment. Your circumstances would have changed allowing you to stay home and reduce your childcare expenses, but your actual income would have gone down.

To accurrately compare the two, you would have to calculate what would happen if you were on unemployment and left the kids in daycare.

Another thing to consider is that unemployment has a timeline. You could not survive on it forever.

Also, since it's a liberal handout for freeloaders, I would hope that you would say a weekly prayer at a home shrine to Ronald Reagan to help motivate you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, work a little harder, and live the Ameruhcan dream of self-suffiency.
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To accurrately compare the two, you would have to calculate what would happen if you were on unemployment and left the kids in daycare.


I see your point, but I disagree. Other expenses would cease (commute costs), and some would increase (cost of finding a new job). I think all can be taken into account to come up with "net income".

Another thing to consider is that unemployment has a timeline. You could not survive on it forever.


True. What I meant to get at was a lot of the anxiety some feel over losing their job can actually not apply in some cases - my net financial situation would improve slightly.

Long term, I would of course worry about healthcare the most - I am afraid that my one bout with high BP and cholestorol would be considered pre-existing, but come October I could be on T's insurance anyway before mine was terminated, so that's nice. I know others do not have that luxury, either.

Also long term would be the anxiety over a new job. Honestly I would probably be looking two fold - at jobs in my current profession AND at jobs in a new/different profession or with PT hours I could just work while the kids were in school (I wouldn't have to earn as much if I wasn't paying daycare).

Also, since it's a liberal handout for freeloaders, I would hope that you would say a weekly prayer at a home shrine to Ronald Reagan to help motivate you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, work a little harder, and live the Ameruhcan dream of self-suffiency.

Well of course. If I weren't lazy I'd have three jobs right now, even.

And I'd also be staying home so that my kids weren't raised by strangers all day.

Contradictory you say? Pish-posh - I'm just too lazy to have figured out how to do it all yet!

impolite
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"net income"

You know, I'm am using this interchangably with "money to budget with" I think, which is where we are crossing wires.

Sorry about that.

impolite
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My choices of jobs and location were limited by my relationships(again my choice but impacted heavily by who had the greatest financial opportunities) for most of my career.

In terms of jobs and salary, there is the question of what are you willing to do to increase your salary at this point in time ? Change jobs ? Change locations ?

rad
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To accurrately compare the two, you would have to calculate what would happen if you were on unemployment and left the kids in daycare.

What?

If I'm unemployed, I don't have to put gas in my car, have my clothing dry cleaned, pack a lunch, all sorts of things. If it costs money to go to work, and it does, why should you pretend it doesn't?

People who have the option of working at home make similar calculations. If costs of commuting and having appropriate office wardrobe is $250/month, and if you work at home you do not incur those expenses, then you can take a $200/month net paycut and come out ahead a little bit.

Imp's question is more complicated than just dollars and cents, but I don't get your objection at all.
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I don't get your objection at all

I know you aren't new here.

he is bored, and no other boards are active, so part of the objection is just to keep the discussion lively.


peace & objections
t
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I see your point, but I disagree. Other expenses would cease (commute costs), and some would increase (cost of finding a new job). I think all can be taken into account to come up with "net income".


But there are many variables in that figure from person to person, and almost all of it is due to personal choices. The two of you could ride to work together, or seperate. If you are driving seperate now, that is a personal choice. If you are not, then the transportation expense would not change if one of you were laid off.

Having kids is also a choice. Some have them, some don't. Some choose high-dollar day cares, some send their kids to Nike sweatshops run in their neighbors' basements. Some pawn their kids off on their family members who are either retired or unemployed. All choices.

My point is that none of these things affects your net income, which is the amount of dollars coming in, after deductions and taxes.



And I'd also be staying home so that my kids weren't raised by strangers all day.

Contradictory you say? Pish-posh - I'm just too lazy to have figured out how to do it all yet!


Ever thought about starting an in-home day care? It is a very profitable business and since you love kids, it might be something worth trying if you do get laid off.
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Imp's question is more complicated than just dollars and cents, but I don't get your objection at all.



She clarified it. We have different definitions of net income.

I personally do not see clothing and transportation as expenses to be deducted from "net income," but are "living expenses" that you would have whether you were working or not.
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Ever thought about starting an in-home day care?

Yes, this has crossed my mind and would be high on the list if I were to leave this job. Not sure who would want a crazy lady with two big dogs watching their children, but I'm sure someone is whacked out enough to give it a whirl.

My point is that none of these things affects your net income, which is the amount of dollars coming in, after deductions and taxes.


Right, I clarified later - I am using the term too loosely. I meant "money I can actually spend", and since daycare has to be paid for me to even work, losing work means also losing the associated daycare expense. They go hand in hand.

impolite
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Out of curiousity, didn't you say your sister was laid off? If so, would she be willing to sit your kids for maybe half of what you pay your current daycare? That would put extra cash in both of your pockets.
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FYI - The medicaid guy has trod this territory and chose the path of least work for both he and his spouse.

rad
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In terms of jobs and salary, there is the question of what are you willing to do to increase your salary at this point in time ? Change jobs ? Change locations ?

I can't change location without an associated custody issue, so that's out.

I do not think I can increase my salary by changing employers at this time. The area I am in is over-saturated with people at my skill level, and it would take a significant increase to counteract the perks I'd lose by switching jobs.

Longer term, I am in the process already of sharpening my skills and adding new ones. I am....limited in that I can at the moment (sharpen those related only to what I am doing now and will be doing in the future for my current employer). Some of this will pay off here - I have been told they want to bring me salary here, and they have been told it would require a significant pay increase for me to accept it (hourly has some advantages at times). A decent chunk is transferrable, too, should that need to happen.

So I guess the answer is: I am willing to learn new skills at this time, and am actively doing so, but switching employers is not currently feasable.

impolite
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Out of curiousity, didn't you say your sister was laid off? If so, would she be willing to sit your kids for maybe half of what you pay your current daycare? That would put extra cash in both of your pockets.


Oh, they not only went back to work they are scheduled for every Saturday coming up but the one (1) weekend I need her to watch my kids to go get hitched.

The plant they make seats for makes a couple of the most popular models of Fords. Which motor company is selling like hotcakes? Ford.

She's bleary-eyed. And she already watches Q (he takes the bus to/from her house to school, so she has before and after duty).

Dad also not only went back, but has been getting OT. GM isn't doing fantastic, but the models they make at his plant are.

<shrug>

impolite
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So I guess the answer is: I am willing to learn new skills at this time, and am actively doing so, but switching employers is not currently feasable.

So next question - what can you do to keep from feeling stuck(other than calculating how you'd do on unemployment:) ?

rad
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How come none of your scenarios have any changes being made by T?

What if he cut back on his sports activities so you could get a second/part-time job?
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How come none of your scenarios have any changes being made by T?

Well, he's already made some. Including cutting back on sports (I'm serious, this schedule is curtailed tho it doesn't look it to y'all).

Part of his work weekends listed in another post IS a second job for him, one that is sporadic but pays well and in cash. He also accepts any and all OT offered.

What if he cut back on his sports activities so you could get a second/part-time job?

Once we are back from the wedding, we are both planning on looking for secondary employment - with S/He who finds the best job taking it and the other remaining at home with the kids. Because of primary work committments that we cannot get out of until then, we don't have the availability for a second job until that point in time.

But it is definitely on the radar. And likely.

impolite
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Well, he's already made some.


Glad to hear it's something you're both working on. Because going off to continue to play sports all the time while you're working three jobs is something DN **spit** would do.
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Exactly: T is working on this, we just have separate ways of dealing with it. He has the ability to get OT more often than I (he can do multiple things for multiple departments), as well as contacts for second, cash-paying gigs.

Right now it's better for me just let that happen and hold down the fort. This Fall that changes to a more equal footing job-wise and we can try a different tactic.

impolite
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This Fall that changes to a more equal footing job-wise and we can try a different tactic.



You're getting promoted??? Dish!
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You're getting promoted??? Dish!

SNORT gawd no, I don't want either job I could be promoted to right now.

I have been told they want to bump me to salary, and as they didn't blink and eye when I told them salary would require a significant raise, it's a possibility. They said "before the end of the year", but of course.....who knows, right?

At any rate, kinda waiting that out a touch. Also, both our schedules calm down in October, so that lends itself better to a second job. And finally, my second job (if I am the one to get one) will likely be tax preparation and if not tax preparation, a retail job for the Xmas season - both options very seasonal.

impolite
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SNORT gawd no, I don't want either job I could be promoted to right now.

I have been told they want to bump me to salary, and as they didn't blink and eye when I told them salary would require a significant raise, it's a possibility.



Upgrading your current job IS a promotion.

Congrats!
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Ever thought about starting an in-home day care? It is a very profitable business and since you love kids, it might be something worth trying if you do get laid off.


She'd have to deal with other parents, and we know imp doesn't like that.

Ishtar
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