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Scottish National Party leader says Boris Johnson has no mandate to take Scotland out of the EU and demands independence vote
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/13/snp-sturgeon-says-johnson-ha...

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intercst
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Scottish National Party leader says Boris Johnson has no mandate to take Scotland out of the EU and demands independence vote

IIRC, the SNP is a left of center party. If they get their independence that would weaken Labor's base and leave the Conservative party in power in Britain for a generation.

DB2
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Will they take Northern Ireland with them?

Could Scotland form its own union with Ireland?
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IIRC, the SNP is a left of center party. If they get their independence that would weaken Labor's base and leave the Conservative party in power in Britain for a generation.

DB2

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After the next few years of continued failures by the Conservative party. Labor party will find another Tony Blair and kick-out the incompetent Conservative party.

jaagu
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Will they take Northern Ireland with them?

Could Scotland form its own union with Ireland?

======================================

If Brexit succeeds, then it will shift Northern Ireland to be closer to Ireland because they did not want to leave the EU and the border issues shifts them closer to Ireland. Which means that Northern Ireland would be better of leaving the union with England. Scotland can be an independent country that does not need Ireland to join the EU. There will be a hard border between Scotland and England.

jaagu
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An independent Scotland must take up many things previously supplied by UK. Such as national defense, NATO. Even patent office. And many more government services.

Larger nations banding together can share those costs. Economies of scale favors alliances of some sort with other nations. Nations nearby makes sense.
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<An independent Scotland must take up many things previously supplied by UK. Such as national defense, NATO. Even patent office. And many more government services.>

Would the EU supply patents and many other services? Wouldn't NATO protect an independent Scotland from invasion by...who?

Wendy
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Wouldn't NATO protect an independent Scotland from invasion by...who?

Well ... historically the English but invading Scotland would be a fools errand. The locals would get miffed, and there are a lot of mountains and valleys. Many of our Cape Breton population particularly in the Cape Breton Highlands are descendants of the Scottish Highlanders. They felt right at home.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Cape+Breton+highlands&rl...

Of course methinks Scotland would easily qualify for membership in NATO as large parts to the British military personal are Scots and they have some great air bases that NATO aircraft flew out of to hunt the Soviet subs.

The Scottish economy is very integrated with England's, not sure what happens there? I don't think either has an interest in looking elsewhere for trading partners when they have them so close to home?

Tim
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An independent Scotland must take up many things previously supplied by UK. Such as national defense, NATO. Even patent office. And many more government services.

====================================================================================

Scotland has a population of 5.5 million people. It is more populous than Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ireland, Slovakia, and Slovenia. And Scotland has about the same population as Denmark, Norway and Finland.

Finland, Ireland, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia are EU countries.

Denmark, Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia are NATO countries.

jaagu
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<<Denmark, Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia are NATO countries.

jaagu>>



Here we have post modern liberals at their favorite business ----tearing up nation states root and branch.

And as you can see, they plan to use the United States, in the form of NATO as their method to do so.

Is tearing apart the United Kingdom likely to STRENGTHEN NATO? Has anyone asked NATO or the United States whether they wish to be used in this manner? Of course not!

It's taken three plus years for the Brits to try to extract themselves from the EU, but the same political forces expect to use NATO to carve up Great Britain.

This does illustrate that Europeans feel that NATO countries are free to leave or reconstitute themselves on their own initiative. Trump should use that flexibility to take the United States and the US Navy OUT of NATO and leave the Europeans to continue experimenting with such things on their own.



Seattle Pioneer
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Is tearing apart the United Kingdom likely to STRENGTHEN NATO?

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Is tearing apart the EU with Brexit likely to STRENGTHEN NATO?
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<<Is tearing apart the EU with Brexit likely to STRENGTHEN NATO?>>



The strategic mission of NATO was completed in 1991 with the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the Warsaw Pact and the withdrawal of Russian forces from Europe.

The United States should have withdrawn our forces from NATO and left the Europeans to look after their own welfare.

Instead we have used NATO to threaten Russia the same way the Soviet Union threatened western Europe.

NATO has evolved into the military arm of the European Union, which has in turn become the social, political and economic arm of German power over all of Europe ----- greater sway over Europe than Kaiser Wilhelm or Hitler has at their greatest reach during WWI or WWII.

That is creating the next European war between Russia and Germany, and we have no business in getting that started.



Seattle Pioneer
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Will they take Northern Ireland with them?

Could Scotland form its own union with Ireland?


On the German news last night, they noted that, not only did the Scottish nationalists score a large win, the Northern Ireland unionists are now a minority. So now, the probabilities of both Scotland and Northern Ireland leaving the UK have increased.

iirc the Protestants in Northern Ireland are transplanted Scots. The population of Scotland is 5.438 million. The population of the Irish Republic is 4.83 million. Population of Northern Ireland, 41.6% Protestant, 40.8% Catholic, 1.882 million. I could see Irish Catholic fanatics having a fit over a combination of Ireland, Northern Ireland and Scotland producing a country with a Protestant majority.

Steve
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Would the EU supply patents and many other services? Wouldn't NATO protect an independent Scotland from invasion by...who?

I'm a bit out of date, but 20 years ago EU issued patents but each member nation still has its own patent office and I think they require registration. Scotland will have much to negotiate in leaving UK and joining EU. Will they use the Euro? Will they honor UK patents? etc etc. They will have additional bureaucracy for this and many other matters. Food and drug approvals? Environmental regs? Pesticides? Agriculture approvals inspections.

Wouldn't NATO protect an independent Scotland from invasion by...who?

Sure. But they also must purchase their own tanks, ships and airplanes. Train and maintain their crews. And the US expects them to contribute 2% of gdp to NATO.
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Scotland is already asking for another independence referendum:

LONDON (Reuters) - British Prime Minister Boris Johnson needs to “focus on reality” and recognize that the Scottish National Party (SNP) has been given a mandate for a second independence referendum, Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said on Saturday.

The SNP won 48 of Scotland’s 59 seats in the UK parliament in Thursday’s national election, prompting Sturgeon to step up her demands for another independence referendum.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-election-scotland...

Under the terms of the Brexit deal, Northern Ireland remains a de facto member of the EU, but has no say n EU politics. I imagine that strengths the case for reunification, which has gained popularity in recent years.
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I'm a bit out of date, but 20 years ago EU issued patents but each member nation still has its own patent office and I think they require registration. Scotland will have much to negotiate in leaving UK and joining EU. Will they use the Euro? Will they honor UK patents? etc etc. They will have additional bureaucracy for this and many other matters. Food and drug approvals? Environmental regs? Pesticides? Agriculture approvals inspections.

That shouldn't be too tough to figure out. Scotland is part of the EU right now so most stuff wouldn't change. If she were to gain independence, she would simply treat the UK the way the rest of the EU treats the UK and vice versa. Scotland would need some new national bureaucracy as you mention, but already has a parliament and national governing structure.

The currency question is interesting to ponder. It would be easiest to simply adopt the Euro, but as we've seen in recent years there are good reasons not to do that.

Sure. But they also must purchase their own tanks, ships and airplanes. Train and maintain their crews.

Not necessarily. Scotland could sign a security agreement with the remnants of the UK where Scotland provides money and troops in exchange for coat tailing on the UK's defense apparatus. That's effectively the way it works now anyway.
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And the US expects them to contribute 2% of gdp to NATO.

Yes the US POTUS does, however put more correctly they must aspire to spending 2% of their GDP on defense, they don't owe it to NATO, US or anyone else.

The majority of US military spending has nothing to do with NATO but rather their own insistence on trying to turn foreigners with very diverse cultures into something resembling Americans ... with generally a very poor record of success.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2019_...

NATO did get deeply involved in Afghanistan in spite of it being completely out of area because US was attacked 9/11.

Anymouse <spent 37 years working with or for NATO including 10 years as a civilian employee in Germany>
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iirc the Protestants in Northern Ireland are transplanted Scots. The population of Scotland is 5.438 million. The population of the Irish Republic is 4.83 million. Population of Northern Ireland, 41.6% Protestant, 40.8% Catholic, 1.882 million. I could see Irish Catholic fanatics having a fit over a combination of Ireland, Northern Ireland and Scotland producing a country with a Protestant majority.

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There is no reason in the world for Ireland to join into a union with Scotland. Now Northern Ireland is a possibility of becoming one country.
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The last of my ancestors to reach the USA shores was an adventurous thoroughly bigoted Catholic hating Scotch Irishman who arrived in San Francisco via the newly opened tran-continental railroad from New York intending to take ship for Australia and sheep raising but instead fell in love with my Swedish Estonian refugee great grandma and the glories of California.

I am in touch with his Protestant brothers’ descendants, most of them still farmers back in County Antrim of Northern Ireland. They are now gungho for union with the EU (prime customers) and, as one wrote me, with “the rest of our bleeding Ireland, regrets to the Queen, and to hell with the idiot bloody treacherous English.”


There you go.



David fb
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There is no reason in the world for Ireland to join into a union with Scotland. Now Northern Ireland is a possibility of becoming one country.

I was responding to a speculation farther upthread about Scotland forming a union with Ireland. As long as religion is used to promote hate, such a union would have obstacles.

Steve
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Not necessarily. Scotland could sign a security agreement with the remnants of the UK where Scotland provides money and troops in exchange for coat tailing on the UK's defense apparatus. That's effectively the way it works now anyway.

The English might not be so complacent after the break.

The Captain
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<<Not necessarily. Scotland could sign a security agreement with the remnants of the UK where Scotland provides money and troops in exchange for coat tailing on the UK's defense apparatus. That's effectively the way it works now anyway.

The English might not be so complacent after the break.

The Captain>>



Scotland has been invaded many times by the English, and the English have been invaded many times by the Scots.


Seattle Pioneer
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