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https://www.travelmarketreport.com/articles/Most-Americans-A...

The program, implemented by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, is the last phase of enforcement of the REAL ID Act, the law originally passed in 2005 that will require travelers to present a REAL ID-compliant driver's license or other approved form of identification in order to board a flight.

As it stands, according to the study, millions of people could be prevented from boarding a plane because they do not have the required identification. According to the survey conducted for U.S. Travel by Longwoods International, a market research consultancy, 72% of Americans either do not have a REAL ID-compliant driver's license or are unsure if they do.

Jeff
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Real I.D.? Hah! I just renewed my DL from home by mobile phone. I answered several routine questions. Provided my last five SS digits and the first 6 numbers of my current licence and now I'll receive an 8 year licence by mail that did literally ZERO to vet my credentials or security risk!
BCTim
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<<Real I.D.? Hah! I just renewed my DL from home by mobile phone. I answered several routine questions. Provided my last five SS digits and the first 6 numbers of my current licence and now I'll receive an 8 year licence by mail that did literally ZERO to vet my credentials or security risk!
BCTim>>



Unless you previously documented your citizenship or legal right to be in the United States, that probably means you don't have Federally compliant ID.

The last time I renewed my driver's license, I provided my birth certificate to get that additional certification. A small burden, but it's there. Cost an extra $15 or so, too. I don't know if I get charged extra when renewing my driver's license.

Of course getting a passport is a good deal more burdensome, but I don't see anyone suggesting that this document be dispensed with because a lot of people don't have one.


Seattle Pioneer
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<<Can't help but wonder how some people are going to get this done tho. >>



People seem to come up with documents needed to obtain welfare benefits.


<<Can't help but wonder how some people are going to get this done tho. The government is now challenging certified Texas birth certificates for people not born in hospitals, and demanding they provide other documentation that their parents resided in Texas at their birth: rent receipts, tax records or utility bills, for instance.>>



Of course you know that is because of widespread fraud in the area, providing "certified documents" to illegal immigrants. And that is limited to the area where the fraud has been endemic.


Seattle Pioneer
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Of course you know that is because of widespread fraud in the area, providing "certified documents" to illegal immigrants. And that is limited to the area where the fraud has been endemic.

Yes, there has been some fraud by some midwifes along the border. What the government is doing, essentially demanding people prove they are innocent of a crime that may have been committed by their parents, decades ago, turns the concept of USian justice, innocent until proven guilty, on it's head.

U.S. is denying passports to Americans along the border, throwing their citizenship into question

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/us-is-deny...

If the government wants to revoke citizenship rights from someone who has been working and paying taxes, as a citizen, for decades, let the government prove they are guilty.

Steve
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They say that the US doesn't have a national ID card. Besides my passport, I have an ID called a Global Entry card which requires a face to face interview with ICE, all sorts of documentation, fingerprinting, etc. It looks pretty cool with a chip, strip, hologram and my mug shot on the front. Basically, it lets me jump the line when coming into the US by using a hand/face, passport scan at a kiosk.

The funny thing is, since few have ever seen one, it's hard to use it as a general purpose ID card.

Jeff
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<<Of course you know that is because of widespread fraud in the area, providing "certified documents" to illegal immigrants. And that is limited to the area where the fraud has been endemic.

Yes, there has been some fraud by some midwifes along the border. What the government is doing, essentially demanding people prove they are innocent of a crime that may have been committed by their parents, decades ago, turns the concept of USian justice, innocent until proven guilty, on it's head.>>



Oh boo hoo!


Of course, they aren't being charged with a crime, as you surely know.


They are being required to provide honest documentation to acquire a government identification document.


Of course the open borders crowd will do anything to undermine border control and enforcement, as you special pleading illustrates.



Seattle Pioneer
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The program, implemented by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, is the last phase of enforcement of the REAL ID Act, the law originally passed in 2005 that will require travelers to present a REAL ID-compliant driver's license or other approved form of identification in order to board a flight.

...

72% of Americans either do not have a REAL ID-compliant driver's license or are unsure if they do.


It's going to be a real cluster muck.

I ran into the REAL ID-compliant driver's license bureaucracy when I went down to the TDMV to renew my drivers license a few months ago.

Old Texas drivers license with photo: not good enough.

Texas Concealed handgun license with photo: not good enough.

US department of Veterans Affairs card with photo: not good enough!

I ended up getting it (on the second day on my third attempt) with a folder full of documents (including two US Army honorable discharges, my original birth certificate, and sundry other documents).

The Texas REAL ID compliant-card is marked with a circle with an inset star located in the upper right corner of the card. ... Because Texas is in compliance with the REAL ID Act, all Texas driver licenses and identification cards are currently valid forms of identification for federal purposes.
https://www.dps.texas.gov/DriverLicense/federalRealIdAct.htm...

In case you're wondering if you have a REAL ID-compliant driver's license just look at the upper right hand corner of your driver's license.

If it has a white five pointed star in a gold circle you're good.

If not you are in for a 'treat' ;-)
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We got Global Entry cards last year, along with passport renewals. A couple of state legislators were convinced that Real-ID was an invasion of privacy and were totally opposed to it. We figured Global Entry cards would be good insurance, just in case the legislature didn't act on it.
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All this is great if you have a license. For those who don't, NYC for its residents, has created the NYC Identification card: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/idnyc/about/about.page
It is a government issued ID, but not a REAL ID.

Just to make things more complicated there is also an Enhanced ID which is a REAL ID plus it can be used to cross the border into Canada, Mexico and some Caribbean nations without a passport (according to the BBC, 78$ of Americans will never have a passport - one of the major reasons why they are clueless when it comes to geopolitics and comparative government programs).

Jeff
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I'm in Austin Texas area.

I had to update my DL and some other info, so about 3 months ago, I devoted a day to making that happen.

Online resources showed me the details.

I spent about 3 hours waiting at the DL update place, and when finished received a REAL ID compliant DL.

No fuss, no muss, no stress.

I had my "original" birth certificate, and SS card. Both are antique, and were not questioned.

I had NO problems and NO stress about it.

Perhaps it's another instance of "white privilege"?

Actually, I think it was "retired privilege" and being prepared.

🤔
ralph finds that being retired and able to take all the time he wants, and go to official places WHEN HE wants... Removes all kinds of stress! 🙂
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I had my "original" birth certificate, and SS card. Both are antique, and were not questioned.

Actually, I think it was "retired privilege" and being prepared.


Was your birth certificate a certified one from a government entity with an embossed seal? The "original" certificate I have had all my life, and was adequate for entry into the Navy, was not issued by the government, not certified, no embossed seal.

Steve
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Of course, they aren't being charged with a crime, as you surely know.

As you well know, being in the US illegally *is* a crime.

They are being required to provide honest documentation to acquire a government identification document.

The people are presenting a Texas government certified birth certificate. It is the government that is demanding the people prove their certificate is not fraudulent on pain of denial of citizenship rights and deportation.

Try reading the 5th Amendment of the US Constitution:

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fifth_amendment

Being arrested and deported is certainly a denial of liberty, and starting from a presumption of guilt and demanding the person prove his innocence is against every principle of US justice.

Steve
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<<Of course, they aren't being charged with a crime, as you surely know.

As you well know, being in the US illegally *is* a crime.

They are being required to provide honest documentation to acquire a government identification document.

The people are presenting a Texas government certified birth certificate. It is the government that is demanding the people prove their certificate is not fraudulent on pain of denial of citizenship rights and deportation.

Try reading the 5th Amendment of the US Constitution:>>



People who are applying for a government identification card are being required to provide honest and verifiable information as a condition for issuing that identification.

Areas in south Texas have had well known problems with fraudulent documents used to obtain the privileges of citizenship. Now that fraud is being recognized and honest documentation required to obtain government identification.


Don't like that? I'm not surprised. Open border advocates have been undermining border enforcement for a long time.

In short ----tough.



Seattle Pioneer
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Areas in south Texas have had well known problems with fraudulent documents used to obtain the privileges of citizenship.

Driving a car is a "privilege". Citizenship is a right enumerated in the Constitution. You should read the Constitution some time.

The Citizenship Clause is the first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution, which was adopted on July 9, 1868. It states that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_Clause

Now that fraud is being recognized and honest documentation required to obtain government identification.

Can *you* provide "honest documentation" of your right of citizenship, meaning something other than a certified birth certificate, or any other document, like a passport, that relies on that birth certificate? Assuming you were born in a hospital, the government could decide that there may have been someone in the hospital staff that was fraudulently entering birth records, so the hospital records of you birth are disallowed. What else do you have? If the government decides to demand proof your parents were here legally, can you provide their birth certificates or naturalization papers?

I described earlier how I have become able to provide birth certificates for both my parents, and my father's parent's naturalization documents, in a post someone saw fit to FA. Can you document your right to citizenship as well?

Steve
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For those concerned about the importance of multigenerational proof, there is a precedent.

Brooklyn, NY is home to a a Syrian Jewish community numbering about 45,000 in number. They are generally ultra religious in outlook and take care of their community with their own social nets. They are parallel, but "different" from the ashkenazi European originated Jews which most in the US are familiar with. I frequently play bridge at one of their social centers (a modern building with a pool, basketball courts, classrooms and so on) and am one of a very small number of people in the room who can't flip back and forth seamlessly between English, Arabic, Hebrew and Ladino, a language spoken by the descendants of the Jews expelled from Spain, along with the Moors, in 1492 (but who don't speak a single word of Yiddish, the German dialect spoken by Jews whose ancestors originated in central and eastern Europe).

To maintain the religious purity of their community, they established "The Edict" which forces the excommunication and community banishment of anyone who doesn't marry into the community.

In addition to the strictures imposed by the Edict in instances of proposed intermarriage, any outsider who wants to marry into a Syrian family — even a fellow Jew — is subject to thorough genealogical investigation. That means producing proof, going back at least three generations and attested to by an Orthodox rabbi, of the candidates’ kosher bona fides. This disqualifies the vast majority of American Jews, who have no such proof. “We won’t take them — not even if we go back three or four generations — if someone in their line was married by a Reform or Conservative rabbi, because they don’t perform marriages according to Orthodox law,” Kassin said. Even Orthodox candidates are screened, to make sure there are no gentiles or converts lurking in the family tree. In addition, all prospective brides and grooms must take marital purity classes and pass a test for HIV.

The force of the Edict is lasting: the children of people who have been excluded under the terms of the Edict are themselves declared ineligible to marry into the community. A local rabbi in the community told me the remarkable story of a woman who confronted this fact. The woman, he explained, is the daughter of a Syrian Jewish man and a gentile who converted to Judaism. The woman was raised as a Jew, but the community regarded this as meaningless and had no contact with the family. Years later, the woman met and fell in love with a young SY. She moved to Israel and underwent a long and exacting Orthodox conversion. When she returned to the enclave, she was told that her conversion meant nothing — her father’s sin still made her ineligible for marriage. (Speaking publicly about such matters is strongly discouraged among SY’s; the rabbi spoke only on condition of anonymity and declined to name the woman.)

While I grew up adjacent to their community, I was never involved in it, other than frequenting some of its shops and restaurants until I was dragged into their bridge club. For those who want to read a pretty accurate review of an unusual ethnic group centered in a small dot of the US:

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/magazine/14syrians-t.html...

Jeff
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<<Now that fraud is being recognized and honest documentation required to obtain government identification.

Can *you* provide "honest documentation" of your right of citizenship, meaning something other than a certified birth certificate, or any other document, like a passport, that relies on that birth certificate? Assuming you were born in a hospital, the government could decide that there may have been someone in the hospital staff that was fraudulently entering birth records, so the hospital records of you birth are disallowed. What else do you have? If the government decides to demand proof your parents were here legally, can you provide their birth certificates or naturalization papers?>>



As usual, liberals think that border enforcement is futile, and they will make it so if they get the chance. In this case, liberals DON'T have the power to prevent the government from requiring reasonable HONEST proof of citizenship or residency before getting Federal identification.

So we get this hysterical ranting and raving in lieu of ignoring the fraudulent documents and letting in illegals who used fraud to get into the United States.

We should make a special point of deporting every one of them.



Meanwhile, people come up with a variety of documents to qualify for welfare programs every day.


Seattle Pioneer
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*********good natured ribbing follows*******

So we get this hysterical ranting and raving in lieu of ignoring the fraudulent documents and letting in illegals who used fraud to get into the United States.

You didn't answer the question. Resorted to gesturing and gnashing. Have something to hide?

We should make a special point of deporting every one of them.

Maybe INS should investigate SP? Methinks he doth protest too much.

Steve...loyal US citizen by birth, and can prove it.
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My grandmother had enough genuine documents showing different names and birthdays to swing an election if she wanted to.

She came to the US at the age of five, at the beginning of the first world war, without a birth certificate. Her mother added a year to her age (without telling her) to get her registered in school a year earlier than she otherwise would have. So she now had the age she was and the additional age her mother gave her.

When she was a little older, she realized that, because her family celebrated her birthday based on her being born on a Jewish holiday (which bounced around being based on a lunar calendar), she "normalized" it to the first day of spring and started using an Anglicized first name.

She got her naturalization papers using that date and name. She married quite young, to my grandfather who was quite a bit older than she was, so she added a year to her age to reduce the spread and her marriage licence had that date, as well as the third first name she was using and that's what ended up on her passport.

Fast forward to when she was 65 and applying for Social Security. Since she didn't have a birth certificate (presumably lost in the shift of her birthplace from Russia to Poland and going through two world wars), she had to go to NYC Board of Education to get her original enrolment records - which is when she realized she could have applied a year earlier because of her mom's fudging the date. By that time, she had been widowed and remarried with yet another first name.

I'm not sure what name and birthdate appeared on her driver's license, but nearly every one of her genuine ID documents had a different name and birthdate.

How do I know when she came to the US? When a woman emigrated, regardless of how poor she was, she would take a few necessary valuable items with her. My great grandmother chose to take a brass mortar and pestle to use in her new kitchen - and engraved the date 1914 on it to commemorate the trip.

Jeff
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I would submit that if:

* a person has made formal and legal - but fraudulent - assertions that certain individuals were born in the US,

* that same person has made a similar - but true - assertion about you

* the fraudulent assertions have been discovered

* as a result the assertion about you is doubted

THEN:

your valid complaint is against the person who made those false assertions, not against the people who want additional - and good - evidence that the claim about you is true before they'll make a formal and legal assertion that you are a US citizen or legal resident.

A passport is, with rare exceptions, a formal and legal assertion that you are a US citizen.

A RealID is a formal and legal assertion that you're a citizen or legal resident.

It's much the same as if you buy something at a flea market and the next day the police show up to take it away from you because the person you bought it from stole it. The police didn't do anything wrong and didn't harm you; the person who stole it and sold it to you did wrong and harmed you.
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<<. My great grandmother chose to take a brass mortar and pestle to use in her new kitchen - and engraved the date 1914 on it to commemorate the trip.

Jeff>>




There you are. Take the mortar, pestle and story to ICE!

Easy peasy!

Good story on how parents routinely resort to fraud whenever it suits them, though.


Seattle Pioneer
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Steve asks: Was your birth certificate a certified one from a government entity with an embossed seal?

I've put it away, and accessing it is a day long effort. 🙂. But, IIRC, it does have an embossed seal.

All I really know is that other than time spent people watching, I had no real problems.
The girl who interviewed me even cracked jokes with me.

🙂
ralph
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How do I know when she came to the US? When a woman emigrated, regardless of how poor she was, she would take a few necessary valuable items with her. My great grandmother chose to take a brass mortar and pestle to use in her new kitchen - and engraved the date 1914 on it to commemorate the trip.

Late arrivals eh? My dad was born in 1912, in PA, and, as the PA birth record has the Anglicized spelling of his last name, it was after his parents became naturalized citizens, from Canada.

My maternal grandmother's origins are even hazier than yours. The most likely scenario my aunt put together, after about 20 years of post-retirement detective work, was the woman my mom and her sisters regarded as their grandmother had kidnapped their mother as a small child, married their grandfather under an assumed name and passed the little girl she had kidnapped off as her own.

My aunt traced her father's family back to PA in the 1840s, but never got to the original Wagner. Much of the tree came from LDS records, rather than government records, so most of the paper trail is fragmentary and unofficial.

That points up how, in a lot of cases, birth, marriage and death records prior to 1900 can be very unreliable.

Best bet for irrefutable proof of citizenship, that would stand up to a total, retroactive, repeal of birthright citizenship, is if your antecedents came here after 1891, when the US established a formal immigration system, establishing who was a "legal" immigrant, then naturalization records for those same people.

Steve
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"How do I know when she came to the US? When a woman emigrated, regardless of how poor she was, she would take a few necessary valuable items with her. My great grandmother chose to take a brass mortar and pestle to use in her new kitchen - and engraved the date 1914 on it to commemorate the trip."

My grandparents on my mother's side came to the US in 1912...the same year the Titanic sank. It was easy to trace their entry into the US. All the records for Ellis Island can be found on line if you know the year and their names. They had two kids - my mom being one - born here in NYC and good records. No one has bothered to try and trace the family history on that side back to the old country seriously. My grandfather came from Naples, Italy and my grandmother from a farm south of Stockholm. When my mother was a teenager, they made a trip (by boat naturally) back to Sweden to visit the relatives. However, she didn't document the family tree anywhere.

On my father's side, it's a bit more complicated. My great grandfather came to the US in 1862 to NYC. The Civil War was going on. He enlisted in the NY 7th division and fought in many battles, being wounded twice. You can find service records on line for most Union troops. He married by great grandmother who came from Ireland. They had 11 kids. At my grandparent's 50th wedding anniversary there was a big gathering - probably 70 folks on my grandmother's side - all distant relations to me. No one kept good records that I'm aware of. Maybe you can find most of the stuff on Ancestry dot com these days.

Me? Born in NYC with good records. I got a passport

One of these days, I need to 'renew' my drivers license but it can be a hassle around here as they are backlogged and if you hit it wrong, you can wait all day. One of these days.......for real ID....


t.
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One of these days, I need to 'renew' my drivers license but it can be a hassle around here as they are backlogged and if you hit it wrong, you can wait all day. One of these days.......for real ID....

In Michigan, you can get in line via website, and they send you a text when you are close to being next.

At select locations during select hours: Reserve your spot in line before you arrive.

Select a location and enter your mobile number online. We will text you with a confirmation and provide updates as you near the front of the line.


https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127--452672--,00.html

Here's the Michigan page about Real ID. It notes there is no extra charge, if you get the Real ID on your usual license renewal cycle. If you blow it off, then realize you really need it, and want a Real ID license outside of your renewal cycle, there is a charge.

https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-1627_81569---,00.h...

Steve
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No one kept good records that I'm aware of. Maybe you can find most of the stuff on Ancestry dot com these days.

Before the Immigration Act was passed and a Federal immigration department was established, the process was, when you got off the boat, you registered with the clerk of any municipal or circuit court. The clerk would give you a dated certificate and, if you kept your nose clean for, usually, five years after that date, you could then apply for citizenship.

Thing is, courthouses burn down, destroying all the paper records stored inside. The courthouse in Plymouth, MI burned down in 1997, though I'm sure that, being the 1990s, vital records were backed up somewhere.

Second, there does not appear to have been any followup to make sure immigrants registered with the court. The spawn of immigrants automatically became citizens, without any documentation.

Bottom line, in the case of retroactive repeal of birthright citizenship, for huge numbers of people whose families got here before there was a Federal immigration system there are probably no records of *legal* entry.

Steve
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Bottom line, in the case of retroactive repeal of birthright citizenship, for huge numbers of people whose families got here before there was a Federal immigration system there are probably no records of *legal* entry.

Steve


What was that old mantra ... something like "In order to kill human beings you must first dehumanize them", or something like that.
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Funny about the innocent part.

My ancestry is French Canadian, Irish, I think, and Cherokee Indian.

As the Irish was a Union Deserter, or maybe and Confederate deserter, don’t know, the French Canadians (Cajuns) had no papers and were not even legal in South Louisiana before the Louisiana purchase.

Of course the Cherokee did not immigrate, not willingly anyway. So no papers there either.

I wonder if they are gonna try and kick me out too? Free plain ticket to where? Canada? Hey! Maybe I got a claim!

Tim! I am claiming French Canadian heritage from Acadia and immigrating back!

Cheers
Qazulight
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Tim! I am claiming French Canadian heritage from Acadia and immigrating back!

Cheers
Qazulight



OK, but you do know you will still be required to pay taxes to the IRS ... right? Since you speak perfect Cajun French, Quebec will take you in immediately and shower you with goodies.

I'm half French Canadian myself, my dear old mom was a Caron descended from two brothers by that name from the Channel Islands who arrived in Quebec City in 1535. The French Canadians kept much better records than most nationalities due to the Church running just about everything in their lives. While the family had migrated to eastern Quebec the border moved when those perfidious Loyalists demanded their own province and mom ended up being born in New Brunswick just 5 Km from the Quebec border.

Somewhat interesting, I checked out the immigration records for the name Caron and the vast majority came in from Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont, clearly part of the diaspora from Quebec wandering back to the homeland?

Should add that as a skilled worker just about every province would put out a welcome mat.


Tim
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Bottom line, in the case of retroactive repeal of birthright citizenship, for huge numbers of people whose families got here before there was a Federal immigration system there are probably no records of *legal* entry.

My father was one of those. He was a rocket scientist and had to provide proof of citizenship in order to get a security clearance. "Proof" turned out to be his grandfather had gotten a grant for U.S. citizens displaced in the Mexican revolution. Good enough to work on the U.S. ballistic missile program, but not good enough for a driver's licence.
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I got my real ID last month. It is slightly more of a hassle for women who changed their names when they married. I had to dig up my 1973 marriage license, for example.

I keep wondering why all this emphasis on ID is taking place. Is it just the crackdown on undocumented immigrants? Or is it voter role purging that is the goal? It really seems excessive.
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I keep wondering why all this emphasis on ID is taking place. Is it just the crackdown on undocumented immigrants? Or is it voter role purging that is the goal? It really seems excessive.

I'm not sure what the motivation was. They sold it as national security issue, which I don't find very plausible.
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<<I'm not sure what the motivation was. They sold it as national security issue, which I don't find very plausible.>>



The open borders crowd never does.



Seattle Pioneer
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<<I'm not sure what the motivation was. They sold it as national security issue, which I don't find very plausible.>>

The open borders crowd never does.

I'm just applying common sense. Real ID isn't required to drive a car, open a bank account, vote, or buy beer. It is only for flying on planes and a few other limited items.

And even then it isn't required to fly on an airplane. You can use a passport which is much easier to get than a Real Id card. And by the way, it doesn't even have to be a US passport. So since the minimum ID requirement is a passport, what purpose do the extra Real ID requirements serve other than to hassle ordinary folk?

Hint: None.
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<<So since the minimum ID requirement is a passport, what purpose do the extra Real ID requirements serve other than to hassle ordinary folk?
>>


You want to use a passport? Help yourself. What's the problem?



Seattle Pioneer
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You want to use a passport? Help yourself. What's the problem?

That wasn't the question. The question was "what purpose do the extra Real ID requirements serve other than to hassle ordinary folk?"

The answer is none.
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Steve:"Bottom line, in the case of retroactive repeal of birthright citizenship, for huge numbers of people whose families got here before there was a Federal immigration system there are probably no records of *legal* entry."

Doesn't matter. All those folks are long dead by now.

Ever since about 1900 there has been a Federal immigration system - maybe decades before.

You'd have to be over 120 years old, and not too many of those that are are flying anywhere these days!

t.
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Doesn't matter. All those folks are long dead by now.

The extreme case of retroactive repeal of birthright citizenship, would result in citizenship only being hereditary. If the first Telegraph to arrive in the US was never naturalized, all the Telegraphs since would be illegal aliens and subject to being deported, in spite of being born here.

I would most likely be deported to Quebec, but the Quebec side immigrated after the Immigration Act, and became naturalized before my father was born, making him a citizen by birth, so I have a better claim on citizenship than many. I don't speak French anyway, but I would compromise and let myself be deported to Ontario, some 30 miles from where I sit at the moment.

Steve
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I'm just applying common sense. Real ID isn't required to drive a car, open a bank account, vote, or buy beer. It is only for flying on planes and a few other limited items.

Don't bet on the law not being amended to require Real ID for many other things. That little gold star may well become mandatory for obtaining debt, property or employment. Don't have a gold star? Then come up with the proof of legal residence to qualify for any of the above. I can't recall now how many different documents I had to come up with to be hired at the last place I worked, in 2006. Had not had that sort of document dive since the Navy.

Steve
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Steve:" If the first Telegraph to arrive in the US was never naturalized, all the Telegraphs since would be illegal aliens and subject to being deported, in spite of being born here."

Actually, no......

once the first Telegraph was born here, all descendants were also citizens by birthright. So says the Constitution and Amendments and Supreme Court interpretations. Born here = citizenship.

Simple.


t.
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...once the first Telegraph was born here, all descendants were also citizens by birthright. So says the Constitution and Amendments and Supreme Court interpretations. Born here = citizenship.

I posted the extreme case: retroactive repeal of birthright citizenship, so citizenship can only be inherited from citizen parents. If the first Telegraph was never naturalized, or you can't find the documentation to prove the first Telegraph was naturalized, then all the Telegraph spawn since cannot inherit citizenship.

The Constitution has been amended several times, including the 18th amendment. To change or remove text in the Constitution, or an amendment, like the 14th amendment definition of citizenship, another amendment is required, like the 21st amendment, which repealed the 18th amendment.

Steve
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<<You want to use a passport? Help yourself. What's the problem?

That wasn't the question. The question was "what purpose do the extra Real ID requirements serve other than to hassle ordinary folk?"

The answer is none.>>



If you want to use the airlines of the United States, you must be legally authorized to do so.


Of course, the open borders crowd wants to extinguish the distinction between illegal immigrants and citizens, but this is one that remains.

Don't like it? Tough.



Seattle Pioneer
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<<No. of Recommendations: 1
I'm just applying common sense. Real ID isn't required to drive a car, open a bank account, vote, or buy beer. It is only for flying on planes and a few other limited items.

Don't bet on the law not being amended to require Real ID for many other things. That little gold star may well become mandatory for obtaining debt, property or employment. Don't have a gold star? Then come up with the proof of legal residence to qualify for any of the above.>>



EXCELLENT idea! Isn't it amazing how great oak trees tend to grow from little acorns with government programs?



Seattle Pioneer
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The question was "what purpose do the extra Real ID requirements serve other than to hassle ordinary folk?"

One purpose could be to get as many people as possible verified and recorded in a government database.
When the time comes that we address the issue of a national ID, it will be easy to assign an ID to individuals in whatever format is ultimately decided.

I doubt if the current regime is that forward-looking, but I don't think the program started with them.

A National ID can be used by a government for many things - some good, some bad. Sooner or later, we'll have one.

The maximum available number of Social Security number is 999,999,999, so we still have 650 million or so available numbers. According to the social security administration, at the current rate of issuance (5.5 million per year) we won't run out for another 73 years.

So that's not a driving force behind a National ID system, but sooner or later we will have one.
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I don't speak French anyway, but I would compromise and let myself be deported to Ontario, some 30 miles from where I sit at the moment.

Steve



On most Quebecois don't speak modern French either and a lot of them don't speak any French at all.

Our Foreign Affairs people get their French lessons from tutor/teachers from West Africa where it is claimed that the best French speakers live. RK managed to get her teacher (with a masters in French lanquage) landed immigrant status in Canada after her French training in Ottawa. Our diplomats were also allowed to bring their live in Filipino Nannies back from foreign postings until Harper found out and killed that perk.


Tim
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When the time comes that we address the issue of a national ID, it will be easy to assign an ID to individuals in whatever format is ultimately decided.

"Real ID" is a Federal ID standard, so your state driver's license becomes a national ID card. The next step would be to amend "Real ID" so the code number on the license is a standardized format that encodes whatever information the standard setters want.

Steve
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That little gold star may well become mandatory ...


Er ... are we talking about five or six pointed gold stars here? }};-@
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Jeff, you may not know that when Grandma and Grandpa returned together (with infant Dad) from their trip to Europe in 1930, Grandpa was allowed through Customs but Grandma was detained due to irregularities in her documents. (Dad, born in NY, had no problem.) They threatened to deport Grandma back to Europe even though she had been here since age 5. This was a traumatic situation for Grandma, who described it to me decades later. Grandpa somehow made it right and they returned home.

Wendy
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On most Quebecois don't speak modern French either and a lot of them don't speak any French at all.

In the back of my mind has been the thought that, when my dad was taking the 1944-45 tour of Europe, after he had broken out his Gaspe French on the locals, then walked away, the locals were laffing at his hillbilly accent.

Our Foreign Affairs people get their French lessons from tutor/teachers from West Africa where it is claimed that the best French speakers live.

Wouldn't be surprised. Language taught in school would be more correct than what people pick up on the streets. The rule of thumb, since about forever, in making SciFi movies is to have the aliens sound alien by having them speak English correctly. in "Sealed Cargo", the trawler's captain has two Danes on board, and he isn't really sure of either, so has them speak Danish to eachother. One man's Danish is judged "not good Danish, but it's OK". The other guy's Danish is judged "perfect, just like they teach in school". The guy who spoke "perfect" Danish was a German spy.

Steve
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Grandpa was allowed through Customs but Grandma was detained due to irregularities in her documents.

The US has gone through spasms of xenophobia for a long time. In 1980, a Lebanese citizen coworker and his wife took a trip to Lebanon. On their return, Afif, who had a current visa, was allowed in, no problem, but they rousted his wife. The twist was, his wife was a native born US citizen.

Steve
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"I posted the extreme case: retroactive repeal of birthright citizenship, so citizenship can only be inherited from citizen parents. If the first Telegraph was never naturalized, or you can't find the documentation to prove the first Telegraph was naturalized, then all the Telegraph spawn since cannot inherit citizenship."

Wow....some folks are 5th and 6th and 7th and 8 generation Americans with roots going back to Africa and Europe and Asia hundreds of years ago.....and family trees with upteen possibilities....... for some folks, it might take going back to great great great grandparents..

or in the case of Native Americans - 10,000 years back when they came from Asia over the Bering Sea land bridge during the ice ages.....

Ain't going to happen for existing 'birthright' citizens but an Amendment could end birthright citizenship for NEW born.


t.
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Knowing which is the proper identification to carry is also important.

I was on a train which crossed from South Africa to Swaziland - a country completely surrounded by south Africa. South Africa has a law which states that, if you have visited a country within the past year (or two?) which has not wiped out Yellow Fever, you need to show your "yellow" card indicating that you have been inoculated against the disease. (That's not a problem as we keep our inoculation cards with our passports when we travel - and I use the card to record all of the various ones we keep up to date).

Anyhow, before we boarded, the train had taken a run to Tanzania, a country where Yellow Fever outbreaks happen on occasion. While the train's crew had had their shots to make the visit, most had left their yellow fever cards at home in South Africa. So they were now captives because South African Immigration wouldn't let them continue out the other side of Swaziland back into South Africa. After hours of negotiation, while our train continued with a skeleton crew of people who did have their cards, the others were allowed back to South Africa through the gate we entered by, had to get their cards from home and then return to Swaziland to complete the journey back into South Africa by showing their cards.

By the way, the inoculation/vaccination whatever list we keep current (besides all the stuff we got as kids) is:

Yellow Fever
Typhoid
Tetanus
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Polio booster (recently taken out of an overabundance of caution)
Probably take anti-malaria prophylaxis a couple of months a year

And the normal: Flu, Pneumonia, Shingrex, etc.

While most of this stuff is not covered by insurance, an ounce of protection is worth a pound of cure

Jeff
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My ancestry is French Canadian, Irish, I think, and Cherokee Indian.

Ah! So you're related to Elizabeth Warren (member of the Wannabe tribe;-)

I believe there's Irish in my ancestry too: a guy named Paddy O'Furniture.

I wonder if they are gonna try and kick me out too? Free plain ticket to where?

Demand a fancy ticket, you're worth it!
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Jeff, you may not know that when Grandma and Grandpa returned together (with infant Dad) from their trip to Europe in 1930, Grandpa was allowed through Customs but Grandma was detained due to irregularities in her documents. (Dad, born in NY, had no problem.) They threatened to deport Grandma back to Europe even though she had been here since age 5. This was a traumatic situation for Grandma, who described it to me decades later. Grandpa somehow made it right and they returned home.

When my two daughter's great grandparents and the extended family (they were Germans living in Poland) were emigrating to Canada in 1926 people with health issues were often rejected. Great great grandma had glaucoma and the Polish doctor demanded a bribe to pass her or the whole family wouldn't have been able to leave. This was told to me by their grandfather who was 16 at the time of the event. He died in a car accident just a few years later one day after he retired from farming in Sask. and was driving to their new home in Vancouver. He also told me of the family arriving in Halifax and being loaded on a train right next to Pier 23 that was very full of immigrants heading for Sask to receive free land to farm.

The railroad of the day were the key to bringing in immigrants to farm and of course shipping out the crops they produced.

Tim
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Ain't going to happen for existing 'birthright' citizens but an Amendment could end birthright citizenship for NEW born.

If birthright citizenship was only repealed from this date forward, there would be howls about all the illegals popping out "anchor babies" over the last several decades and those anchor babies not really being entitled to citizenship. In spite of retroactive laws being illegal, the debate would be how far back to make the effective date to effectively disenfranchise the "undesirables". Dial it back far enough to eliminate the Asians (1850s)? If you dial it back that far, you would also eliminate a lot of Irish and Germans. Dial it back far enough to eliminate the Hispanics? Good luck purging all the Hispanics. Some Hispanic families have been here longer than the white people.

The start date could be 1906, when the Federal government took over the naturalization process and records began being kept in Federal courts, rather than a wide variety of local district and circuit courts. iirc, my dad's parents probably entered the US after 06, but before my dad was born in 1912.

Or, the easiest way would be to require people to establish residence of antecedents either 100 years ago, or two generations, whichever is longer. My dad was born in 12 and mom in 20, so, by the time such an amendment could be ratified, both my parents, for whom I have the information to obtain certified birth certificates, will be over the 100 year hurdle.

One of the "general rants", written in 2004, deals with repeal of birthright citizenship and it's replacement with a "grandfather" standard.

Steve
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