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In an effort to reduce posts I am no longer welcomeing new board members with a single post.(so maney are coming on board,I am loosing track) :).

Chris
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You should continue to welcome new board members. It is a very nice thing to do.
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Mr.H,

You are correct,I will make a list.

It was the first step in a self imposed gag order.I am guilty of pwp (posting while plastered).
I found myself denigrating the integrety of my own
board.And was laying an excape plan.

....Can you explain carbon dating in some detail?
I understand c-14 is absorbed by anything which requires air.And is accumulated in the "body" of whatever absorbes it.Also I am lead to believe that only about 14 pounds of it exists on this planit...Low
numbers.Then when the subject dies (stops absorbing)
resediual c-14 decays on a known 1/2 life.How can we be
sure that the samples are not contaminated? Such as an
animal urinating on a future sample?And why are the dates different for the same samples given multiple tests in the same or different labs?

Chris
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Working backwards:

How can we be sure that the samples are not contaminated? Such as an animal urinating on a future sample?And why are the dates different for the same samples given multiple tests in the same or different labs?

Actually, we are pretty sure that the samples are contaminated which is why we take as elaborate measures as we do in carbondating. Measures such as getting samples from the inside of the bone where plants and urine and etc. does not penatrate.
Different dates are encountered for different reasons. sometimes, human error by a lab technition will contaminate a sample, sometimes, older equipment versus newer equipment will give you different levels of accuracy, sometimes ... ewll stuff happens. But this is accounted for by taking somany tests of one sample. The inevitable errors are found and isolated from the general or mainstream data sets. Also, remember that at the end of the day, C14 dating does not say that Lucy for instance is 235,916yrs, 3mnths, 2weeks,... Carbon dating says Lucy is about 200-250 thousand years old. It is an approxomate figure and/or a range.


I understand c-14 is absorbed by anything which requires air.And is accumulated in the "body" of whatever absorbes it.Also I am lead to believe that only about 14 pounds of it exists on this planit...Low
numbers.Then when the subject dies (stops absorbing)
resediual c-14 decays on a known 1/2 life.


Except for that 14 pounds thing that description is absolutly correct. I don't know where tat 14 pounds came from, but I'd bet dimes to donuts that we have 14 pounds in our upstairs chemistry lab.
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....
Also, remember that at the end of the day, C14 dating does not say that Lucy for instance is 235,916yrs, 3mnths, 2weeks,... Carbon dating says Lucy is about 200-250 thousand years old. It is an approxomate figure and/or a range.
....


I think that you will find that carbon dating is applicable only for ages less than about 50,000 to 70,000 years. The reason is that the halflife of carbon 14 is about 5700 years, and after 10 halflives, or 57,000 years, the amount remaining is only 1/1024, or 0.01% what there was initially, which was very small already, but it is still measurable, but barely.

However, after 50 halflives, which 250,000 would be, there would be only about 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 of what was there initially....not measureable at all.

Other methods were used to date Lucy.

Charlie
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Mr.H,

<Measures such as getting samples from the inside of the bone
where plants and urine and etc. does not penatrate.>

I am very familur with shallowly buried bones.If for
instance a bone is buried in fertle earth with a high
nitrogen content it will decay very quickley.Bones last
much longer in dry sand.I have both condishions on my
farm and have buried animals here and there....Now a bone in sand stays smoth and hard for a long time.A bone in fertile soil becomes porus faster.Even tho buried at about the same time...And I stop farming.At
this point all soil reverts to a sandy condision. And all bones decay at about the same rate.(add x years here)Now someone finds them.What happens???

I cannot believe that something as porus as a bone can be uncontaminated.

I do thank you for touching the 3rd rail.This subject
has been ignored several times on this board.

Ps <Except for that 14 pounds thing that description is absolutly correct. I don't know where tat 14
pounds came from, but I'd bet dimes to donuts that we have 14 pounds in our upstairs chemistry
lab.>

DR.Hovind.But to clarify I think he was refering to c-14 that is airborne.

Thanks,Chris



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....

I am very familur with shallowly buried bones.If for
instance a bone is buried in fertle earth with a high
nitrogen content it will decay very quickley.Bones last
much longer in dry sand.I have both condishions on my
farm and have buried animals here and there....Now a bone in sand stays smoth and hard for a long time.A bone in fertile soil becomes porus faster.Even tho buried at about the same time...And I stop farming.At
this point all soil reverts to a sandy condision. And all bones decay at about the same rate.(add x years here)Now someone finds them.What happens???
....


Sorry, Chris, but your anecdotal observations on your farm are a far cry from knowing what happens to bones over thousands of years. Most bones of any animal, human or otherwise, disappeared long ago. Only those in optimum environments survived or were fossilized.
Charlie
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Charlie,

<Other methods were used to date Lucy.>

WOW! "Lucy" Another 3rd rail.

Let's be real careful here.And not luse our tempers.

As for lucy,she is hot! We are discussing carbon dating now on this thred.I have no problem with other forms of dating being disscused here.But the controversy over lucy really belongs on its own thred.

What other methods?

PS Charlie,so far this board has no repetion.278? posts
and all origional.Enjoy!
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....
WOW! "Lucy" Another 3rd rail.

Let's be real careful here.And not luse our tempers.

As for lucy,she is hot! We are discussing carbon dating now on this thred.I have no problem with other forms of dating being disscused here.But the controversy over lucy really belongs on its own thred.

What other methods?

PS Charlie,so far this board has no repetion.278? posts
and all origional.Enjoy!


Did I say that Lucy does not belong on this thread? Of course she does, but carbon dating was not used to date her because it is not valid that far back.

And please explain what your PS means. I have no idea what any of your PS refers to. I don't even know what "repetion" means.

Charlie
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Charlie,

you miss my point.The same soil condisions exested way back when.I am assuming but I think I am safe here.That
is that some one or some force (man nature) alteres things from time to time.And this may have an effect on
what we percieve as being correct given our narrow view
of things.

Chris
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Charlie,

<Did I say that Lucy does not belong on this thread? Of course she does,>

Not on this thred,she is a thred (subject) all her
own.

<And please explain what your PS means. I have no idea what any of your PS refers to. I don't
even know what "repetion" means.>

Subjects have been disscused with many opinions given
and the opinions have not been given again at a later date.On this board.Please start at about post #10 and
read until your jaw drops before posting again.I know
that sounds insulting but do your homework so you can
understand what has already been covered.There is truly
a massive amount of information on this board.Feel free
to ask questions or make relative statements along the way,we all need to review from time to time so as not
to repeat.

Chris
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Charlie,

Did I say that Lucy does not belong on this thread? Of course she does,

Not on this thred,she is a thred (subject) all her
own.

<And please explain what your PS means. I have no idea what any of your PS refers to. I don't
even know what "repetion" means.>

Subjects have been disscused with many opinions given
and the opinions have not been given again at a later date.On this board.Please start at about post #10 and
read until your jaw drops before posting again.I know
that sounds insulting but do your homework so you can
understand what has already been covered.There is truly
a massive amount of information on this board.Feel free
to ask questions or make relative statements along the way,we all need to review from time to time so as not
to repeat.

Chris


Well exxxcccccuuuuuuussssssseeeeee me, Chris, but my Post 278 was in direct response to OldFatherHubbard's Post No. 273:
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=14445162

In which I quoted a portion of his post so that you and others would know what I was responding to. What was I to do, go back to the very early posts to see if someone had already responded to Hubbard's Post 273?

Well I searched this board for "carbon" and not one, besides Hubbard's, which I responed to, says anything about the time period over which carbon dating is valid.....except my Post 278. And my post, if you had read and understood it, was not at all about Lucy; it was about carbon dating. Hubbard had just used Lucy to illustrate his point that carbon dating does not give accuracies to six significant figures. But he used 250,000 years as the age as determined by carbon dating, which could not happen because carbon dating is not valid beyond about 70,000 years.

Please tell me what you would have had me do.

Charlie
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Charlie,,,and we got off on such a good start,I am depressed.

In reverse;

<Please tell me what you would have had me do.>

<Well I searched this board for "carbon">

Tell me how you did that.
======
Charlie you can't just search for a "key" word on this board.It (the board) has a personality.And I am
trying to maintane it.Please don't be disruptive.

<What was I to do, go back to the very early posts to see if someone had already responded to
Hubbard's Post 273?>

No you go back to about #10 and understand how this
board has evolved.Then you will have the background to
understand how to approach a question.

Sincerly,Chris
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Charlie you can't just search for a "key" word on this board.It (the board) has a personality.And I am
trying to maintane it.Please don't be disruptive.


Chris, whatever illusions you may have about it, and regardless of whether you started it, this isn't your board and you're not the moderator. The Motley Fool is. This is an open discussion forum, like all the boards, and you have no control over it.

Searching for a key word is a perfectly legitimate way of finding whether a past discussion covered a particular topic, and I don't see what your problem with it is.
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.The same soil condisions exested way back when.I am assuming but I think I am safe here.

Chris, no one will dispute that soil conditions similar to what you have observed existed way back. However, the mere fact that a bone of any age is found indicates that it was in soil that did not lend to decay, generally (I think) is poor clay like soils. These very same type of soils provide protection also. If you need to see what it is like, visit North Carolina where I grew up.

David
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OOOH

"There goes my shroud of being reasonable"

rant time


Chris, whatever illusions you may have about it, and regardless of whether you started it, this isn't your board and you're not the moderator. The Motley Fool is. This is an open discussion forum, like all the boards, and you have no control over it.


Kazim!


That was completly uncalled for and very rude. This IS most certainly nf's board. He is the moderator and does have control over what content is allowable on his board. READ THE SPEAKERS CORNER PART OF THE TMF BOARDS. "Fools Personal Soapboxes" - TMF is not expected to police every board. They do that in all the other folders and even at speakers corner from time to time. The board creator (no pun about fools tools please) is responsable for making sure his board meets with TMF standards and he has the right to bring to their attention if it is not. But the responsability to deal with things himself first before giving up and running to the authorities. If a post occurs that is notin keeping with the mission statement, thenhe can problem post it.

I am even tempted to say in a holier than thou tone of voice "How dare you pull that on an innocent fellow like cris" but I wont because of politeness reasons.

While I'm in red mode I'll also mention it is not very nice to keep opening your posts with a line like "Theis just goes to show that you really have no idea what you are talking about" If you have a problem with the level of ignorance take it up with Bush who sinks money elsewhere then education or pataki who cuts state higher ed budgets (or tries to) every year, or the board of bloody education that doesn't teach science correctly in highschool in the first place.

It is a very good thing chris is trying to do by keeping peace and civility in this arena. The board creator is the lord high sherrif of the shire. It is not a republic with a senate or an athenean democracy. LOCAL TMF CULTURE- WE ARE IN A FEUDAL SYSTEM WITH DESIGNATED BOSSES AND THE KING.




P.S. Sorry about that, but I had a board taken away from me by revolting peons my self and do not want to see it happen to a nice guy like nf. It hurts the feeling real bad.


<replacing my shoud of reasonability>
The Shepherd
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Seeing as how I grilled kazim, it would not be fair to not mention something to you too.

You needn't send the newcommers all the way back to post 10. Your board has over 300 posts now. People will get the feel of the board just buy following up on the last ten or twelve posts that show up when you click on to a new board.
also, as you get into the higher numbers, it's alright to recap previous information a bit so that as even more and more newcommers come, they don't have to search all the far back post before being able to understand what is happening.

Also, don't be a stranger (lurker ) on your own board. You do not need to make an effort to post less. We all like hearing from you and commenting on your posts.


Cheer up!

Guiding with the light, the shepherd!
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That was completly uncalled for and very rude.

Okay, first off I apologize for my rudeness, and I admit that the preceding post was mostly uncalled for. I hereby consider myself fairly chastised.

This IS most certainly nf's board.

I'm afraid, however, that I can't agree with you here. This board was opened at the request of Chris, but its existence was granted by the Motley Fool, which is solely responsible for its content. Yes, Chris can moderate its content by submitting problem reports to the MF staff. But then, so can I and so can you.

Now, I will agree with you as far as saying that I should probably be a little more polite when talking to people, simply in the interest of keeping up a friendly environment on this board. But I think Chris is getting unjustifiably caught up in administration details by telling people that they should go searching through past topics for key words. The speaker's corner page also says:
"Even though these are individual boards, they are public, so please be nice to guests who wander into your house."

While I'm in red mode I'll also mention it is not very nice to keep opening your posts with a line like "Theis just goes to show that you really have no idea what you are talking about" If you have a problem with the level of ignorance take it up with Bush who sinks money elsewhere then education or pataki who cuts state higher ed budgets (or tries to) every year, or the board of bloody education that doesn't teach science correctly in highschool in the first place.

It's not in my nature to defend Bush, but in all fairness, he really hasn't had time to do any damage to the school boards yet. The poor guy has only been in office for a month and a half.

I essentially agree with you that the state of science education is generally lousy. That is the case partly because local school boards are so easily cowed by special interest groups. Some people go on the offensive when, in fact, they DON'T have any idea what the real science is about, and I think it behooves us to point that out once in a while.

Now, having said that, I will try in the future to be a little more diplomatic with Flash.
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Oops, typo.

But I think Chris is getting unjustifiably caught up in administration details by telling people that they should go searching through past topics for key words.

I meant shouldn't.
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Mr.H,

You are a truly delightful addition to this board :).

Chris
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Mr.H,

<You needn't send the newcommers all the way back to post 10. Your board has over 300 posts
now. People will get the feel of the board just buy following up on the last ten or twelve posts that
show up when you click on to a new board. >

That is getting old,but their is so much information
back there.And that is where the board developed a personality of sorts.It's not like I am sending newcomers to "the arcives" never to return.And I hope
nowone took it that way.

Other boards with thousands of posts have discussed
the same issue the same way several times because newcomers haven't read back.That is why they have thousands of posts.Or post after post is comprised of
two or more members doing little more than degrading oneanother.A frend of mine once said that this was one
of the most intelligent boards on the fool.I have tried
to maintane that by discuraging brawls and encorrageing
staying on point.And by being gratful to have well educated members.And thanking them for contributing.
At the same time asking that posts be easy as possible
for a common person (me) to understand.Thereby making the bord all inclusive.

Back about post oh 6 thru 9 I established myself as
the board idiot (that's why I say start at 10 :)).Knodlege is a wonderful thing,if you can't absorb it you luse.If you are afraid to ask you luse.If you
are insulted after asking you may never ask again.(The
worst).I serve as the comforter also ( hey I ain't as
dumb as that guy and he's in charge,maybe I'll ask a question).

I am open to suggestions.

Thank You

Chris
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Kazim,

<Now, I will agree with you as far as saying that I should probably be a little more polite when
talking to people,>

You agreed to be polite here on about your third post
yyyyyyyyyoooooooooouuuuuuuuu got it!! or something like that.I am holding you to your word.

Chris
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Kazim

<But I think Chris is getting unjustifiably caught up in administration details by telling people
that they should go searching through past topics for key words.

I meant shouldn't. >

What I ment was new people (Charlie that day) should
get a feel of the board first.

Chris
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